The Black Lives Matters thread.

[Ambers Troll]

That guy is a good teacher. Someone worth listening to on any topic he is familiar with, might chase down one of his books actually.

Hope everyone watched the last part of this Van Jones interview, such an educated guy. Way off topic, but he actually picked the major economic issue in regard to western countries about our work lives.
Manufacturing has had its decline, the next is in the management sector and quite a few higher paid and educated jobs as computers replace human decision making processes. VJ mentioned about infrastructure and the struggle in fixing it, I would add that one issue beyond political struggle is finding those who have the skills to do it, to just get the work done.
During your coming election my hope for most Americans is that they focus on jobs, especially with regard to what the jobs of the future may be, and how to give everyone the opportunity to chase them.

Thanks for the link @acffan

 

[DonaDiabla]

Actually, it depends on the black separatism group overall. For example, Nation of Islam want totally separatism in America based on the racial and economic problems that plagued the black community. Other groups might want a full functioning country but the problem is that Black Americans make up the fabric of America. You see, blacks were never the majority of the population like in the Caribbean. However, most black American separatism groups recognize they have a different culture than Afro-Caribbean blacks and our African counterparts.Thus, they feel that having their own space might solve the problems plaguing the Black American community without hurting the other black people's cultures.

I dont want to derail the BLM thread considering not many people wanted to discuss this idea.. in retrospect it is a little silly. Or pointless I guess considering it isn't even on the table, it's more of a "what if" scenario. I just thought about it and was curious to know everyone's thoughts. In part because in my opinion "correcting" the situation is an impossibility, there will always be prejudice and biases and that is why homogeneous societies are more successful than diverse ones, because there is high trust and cooperation. But I digress.

The thing with black separatism is they don't look to be a segregated community within the US like your examples... they don't want to be like the amish or have a reservation. They want complete independence, a country of their own. And this would allow them many things: the right of self determination, the possibility to have an army to defend themselves, a country that is run by them and where they are the majority. So that is a big difference. And maybe there isnt a precedent in the US, but there are countless examples in the world at large, not just jews with Israel although that is the case that gets most publicity mainly because of the palestinians (another favorite cause of the left) but Pakistan and India, is an example, Yugoslavia is another. There are many others too.

 

[Mila_]

I would like to address a couple problems with your post.

First of all; African-Americans did found two countries in Africa. These countries are called Sierra Leone and Liberia; both these countries have African American founders. Also many black Americas live great lives in their ancestors homelands including Cameroon and Ghana. Sure, they had to adjust but they were not strangers in a strange land. Most West Africans welcome black Americans and black Caribbean peoples with open arms.Secondly, not all African-Americans families were affected by slavery in America. My ancestors were slaves in Latin-America and the Caribbean. My bloodlines stretches from blacks in Danish virgin Islands to Argentina's pampas. So, you do not speak for my people's experience in the Americas. My grandparents are recent immigrants to America and I am part of the second generation born in America.

My ancestors were freed in early 1700s. Which was 160 years before blacks in America was free and 180 years before blacks in Brazil was freed. Third, some blacks in the Americas still retain their ancestors' religions and customs. I still retain my ancestors' customs and culture from before the middle passage. I do not follow Western ideas or culture outside of sex work! Fourth, not all blacks were breed by their masters. Just because that happened a lot in America does not mean that was going down everywhere else. Most white masters in the Caribbean would not touch black women because they felt that were unclean. Only the white libertines and sex fiends would breed with their black slaves of the Caribbean. In fact, most white Caribbean slave masters would let white criminals or their white slaves breed with blacks. This is to create a more highly price slave. Frankly, my ancestors had 10 slave masters. Some of them breed with us and some did not . Most of the my non-black blood comes from my ancestors breeding with the mestizo and the romani peoples for 150 years. Most of my male ancestors who were not black were mestizo or romani.Also they breed with other mulattos, quadroons, and octoroons as well. That is where most of the European blood comes from in my bloodline.Fifth, Black Americans all do not come from the same culture or same experience. Thus, we should not have our territory. We are Americans like everyone else. With that logic, why not give divide America up for all groups?

Both your posts were really helpful so thank you for sharing your thoughts and your personal story. I didn't know about Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ghana and I will have a lot of fun researching it, so thank you for pointing me in that direction. I want to add a few things but I will do it under a spoiler so I dont continue to derail the thread.

Spoiler

I don't know about the Caribbean but in the mainland in South America (except for Argentina) there was a lot lot lot of admixture between the spaniards who were white, the black slaves and the indigenous peoples. Most people in SA are a mix of everything, "pardos" they were called during the colony (they werent mullattoes or zamboes because they had been so mixed they were beyond those). It is actually something South Americans are quite proud of, they frequently say that unlike the British and the French the spanish colonialists did marry natives and had children with them and interbred with black people. Which I guess is up for debate.

When you talk about black people being diverse you are absolutely right. I didnt want to make it sound like black people are a monolith, I was writing a quick post and painting with thick brushstrokes... There are obviously differences of all kind. What I was talking about was blacks in the US, not immigrants (1st, 2nd generation) but blacks who are descendants from american slaves do share a common history and I believe that is good enough reason to want a separation from the people who enslaved them. Either in the US or wherever. I say this because I cannot imagine what it would be like if jews still lived in Germany. If I had to live next to germans. I know and I realize that germans today cannot be blamed for what their parents or grandparents did, and I personally wasn't wronged by them, it was my grandparents. And yet it would be very uncomfortable for me to live there.

When I talk about blacks getting a country of their own I do not include blacks from South America here because they aren't a disctinct group. There was integration to such an extent that there aren't distinct races in South America, they are all brown, the only "white" people in South American countries are recent european immigrants who, like myself, just got there (I am not white). I wasn't born in Venezuela, I was raised there though. South America gave refuge to many immigrants from Europe during WWII who were escaping from their countries (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, etc) and they are mostly white, but everyone else is pretty mixed. And in the case of the Caribbean many countries such as Haiti already have a black majority and are already independent so they are factually free.

Since I was making a comparison between blacks and jews, before Israel was created we were also quite diverse, we still are. There are sephardic jews, ashkenazi jews, sabras (jews who never left israel), jews from yemen, Egypt, etc. Each community had variations in customs and other differences, and yet they all came together in Israel. Maybe this idea of black self determination isn't the opinion of the majority of black people, but I do think that there is a reason why at least a minority feels that way.

It is interesting to see that it is the Nation of Islam the ones who want complete separation. I dislike the fact that they are muslims, but other than that I really respect their pride. I absolutely love some of Muhammad Ali's thoughts such as his thoughts on miscegenation.

 

[xDollPartsx]

I, for one, would just like to say that I have enjoyed everyone's insight and views being shared, whether popular opinion and agreed upon or not. It's a really awesome thing to be able to gain knowledge from so many different brains and backgrounds. Carry on..

 

[Guy]

Both your posts were really helpful so thank you for sharing your thoughts and your personal story. I didn't know about Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ghana and I will have a lot of fun researching it, so thank you for pointing me in that direction. I want to add a few things but I will do it under a spoiler so I dont continue to derail the thread.

Spoiler

I don't know about the Caribbean but in the mainland in South America (except for Argentina) there was a lot lot lot of admixture between the spaniards who were white, the black slaves and the indigenous peoples. Most people in SA are a mix of everything, "pardos" they were called during the colony (they werent mullattoes or zamboes because they had been so mixed they were beyond those). It is actually something South Americans are quite proud of, they frequently say that unlike the British and the French the spanish colonialists did marry natives and had children with them and interbred with black people. Which I guess is up for debate.

When you talk about black people being diverse you are absolutely right. I didnt want to make it sound like black people are a monolith, I was writing a quick post and painting with thick brushstrokes... There are obviously differences of all kind. What I was talking about was blacks in the US, not immigrants (1st, 2nd generation) but blacks who are descendants from american slaves do share a common history and I believe that is good enough reason to want a separation from the people who enslaved them. Either in the US or wherever. I say this because I cannot imagine what it would be like if jews still lived in Germany. If I had to live next to germans. I know and I realize that germans today cannot be blamed for what their parents or grandparents did, and I personally wasn't wronged by them, it was my grandparents. And yet it would be very uncomfortable for me to live there.

When I talk about blacks getting a country of their own I do not include blacks from South America here because they aren't a disctinct group. There was integration to such an extent that there aren't distinct races in South America, they are all brown, the only "white" people in South American countries are recent european immigrants who, like myself, just got there (I am not white). I wasn't born in Venezuela, I was raised there though. South America gave refuge to many immigrants from Europe during WWII who were escaping from their countries (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, etc) and they are mostly white, but everyone else is pretty mixed. And in the case of the Caribbean many countries such as Haiti already have a black majority and are already independent so they are factually free.

Since I was making a comparison between blacks and jews, before Israel was created we were also quite diverse, we still are. There are sephardic jews, ashkenazi jews, sabras (jews who never left israel), jews from yemen, Egypt, etc. Each community had variations in customs and other differences, and yet they all came together in Israel. Maybe this idea of black self determination isn't the opinion of the majority of black people, but I do think that there is a reason why at least a minority feels that way.

It is interesting to see that it is the Nation of Islam the ones who want complete separation. I dislike the fact that they are muslims, but other than that I really respect their pride. I absolutely love some of Muhammad Ali's thoughts such as his thoughts on miscegenation.

Actually members of the NOI are not really Muslims as many of their beliefs are contrary to Islam. The NOI is both racist and anti semitic, which is totally unislamic. Additionally, in recent years they have been incorporating some of the beliefs of the Church Of Scientology.

 

[Mila_]

Actually members of the NOI are not really Muslims as many of their beliefs are contrary to Islam. The NOI is both racist and anti semitic, which is totally unislamic. Additionally, in recent years they have been incorporating some of the beliefs of the Church of Scientology.

You might be right about NOI, after writing that post I realized that the only things I know about it are through Muhammad Ali (I liked the guy a lot) so I have no basis to say I respect them since I dont know if Muhammad Ali's speeches came from him or from NOI.

But just wanted to punctualize that, antisemitism is islamic. Mohammad was antisemite, he wiped entire jewish tribes off the map and according to his revelations the hour of redemption will only come when every jew has been exterminated from the face of the Earth by muslims.

Edit: unlike NOI, islam is a subject I know extremely well as I have studied islam in depth. I wont discuss it here because this is the BLM thread. If anyone wants more info PM me.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

But just wanted to punctualize that, antisemitism is islamic.

Did you get your words crossed here?

Thanks for the link @acffan

Was a great link. echo @ACFFAN69

 

[Mila_]

Did you get your words crossed here?

Was a great link. echo @ACFFAN69

Where are the words crossed? The practice of antisemitism is part of islamic doctrine.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Where are the words crossed? The practice of antisemitism is part of islamic doctrine.

I was curious if you meant to say Islam is antisemitic.

edit: Saying it one way could be construed to lay the blame of antisemitism at the feet of Islam. Saying it another could mean Islam is just another movement plagued with it.

Linguistic nitpickery, I suppose. But you are right, this is somewhat of a derailment. I withdraw the question.

 

[LioraVox]

LoiraVox I've always been taught to respect others and one's own opinions until those opinions prove false, I have no idea where nor how you formed your opinion in your second sentence above but you are patently wrong there. The first photo of Trayvon Martin that was floated out by both the media and those who apparently share your view of social justice was one of an innocent, 12 year old child and not Martin's facebook photo's of a 17 year old, tatted, thugged-out juvenile who had been sent to live with his father in the community where he was killed because he had physically assaulted his mother. Let me say that again: he beat up his own mom. Why wasn't that #fact fervently discussed as much as BHO's remarks that Trayvon could have been his own son?

Michael Brown. Remember the "gentle giant?" What was the first picture we saw on all social media about Michael Brown? A picture of his high school cap and gown. Not a mug shot shot but a cap and gown. If the police department had not released the CCTV from the store he robbed we wouldn't have seen the real Michael Brown; the Michel Brown who strong armed the clerk and who stole from that store.

Now, let's take a look at Charleston shooter, Dylann Roof. How long did it take for the media to find a public photo of this white, hate-filled murderer wearing a jacket with white supremacists propaganda? Did those photo's come before his graduation, grade school, or elementary pictures. Nope, the white supremacist pic was the first photo leaked via the media. BTW, whether you believe it or not I honestly hope Roof rots in hell for what he did.

Unless I've mistakenly misread your comments then I have to tell you that you are patently false in your assertions.

I'm going to go with you misread me, but it's okay. I formed this opinion from seeing the practices of media and how they feed into fear mongering which is usually based on racial stereotypes prior to the last 3-5 years, in which it has gotten a bit more "fair". And how they use past criminal records of victims to justify actions that have led to their death.

When small minded people watch the news and see the mugshot of a victim they could subconsciously or knowingly deem them deserving the death because "once as criminal always a criminal". An example that comes to mind is the assumption that pitbulls are aggressive dogs, when most likely they are not. Though things are slowly changing when a poc is a victim their mugshots or their criminal records are usually exposed or brought up when they just shouldn't be. What does that have to do with why they were killed? If they were in fact, committing a crime why does the news outlet need to post past records to prove this person is a criminal?? - Why not just talk about the crime they actually committed.

Since you mentioned Trayvon, what did his suspension from school, his text messages with friennds etc have to do with Zimmermen killing him? How did most people hear about this little fact about him aside from the media trying to prove him to be a bad kid? That's my point. What does his past have to do with him being killed - was George a pyshic or something and knew all these things about him? No... so why is this relevant in news reports?

When the media mentions criminal history of poc it is usually used as a tool to justify what happened - yet what happened usually has nothing to do with the things they did 5+ years ago & already served time for. Compared to a white person who commited a crime & the media gets their families or friends to talk about how good of a person they are or how they're suffering from mental illness. Case in point , Dylan Roff murdered people in a church..why is the media there asking his friends what type of person he was? He's a person that decided to kill 9 people in a church. All we need to know is that he is trash,and most people will come to that conclusion when you say (this person) murdered NINE people in a church.

 

[LioraVox]

DP- black separatism: I don't really have a concrete opinion on it because I've never considered it as a necessary thing/option. Right now it seems unrealistic & kinda of like a temper tantrum to say "just give us our own shit & we will leave cause we're tired of being around you" like to me that's the same as a kid going to camp out in a tree house cause they're mad at their parents & are tired of their rules. Plus also in this time and age, where everything is a trade of goods.. it seems like it would be really difficult to have any relationships with other countries..but this place would need to have relations with other countries because what if the place doesn't naturally have its own resources. ie : oil and shit, idk. This place wouldn't really have any standing at say the UN. Other countries would probably be mad at this country because there's a possibilty that the black people from those countries will leave to come live in our country. Which then messes with their structure & markets etc. So then our country would 1) look like the spoiled brat of the earth 2) have to pull esstential goods out of our asses 2b) or heavily borrow from other countries which creates debt 3) we might inspire anothers countries black folk to move to this country or back to their roots.

The experimenter in me is like that would be kinda dope to be the first generation of a new country, and being there from the ground up. But realistically I think it's 100% better to change how the system works here in america so that it can work better for everyone instead of saying "fuck this shit i'm out" & only fixing the problems of one group. Because if black people went to our own country or back to where our ancestors are from. Any other minority group would then be the "black people" of america and you'd just have the same problems we are having today. Or they could also say "fuck this shit, we're out too" which then leads to racism and segreation on a worldwide scale. Like can you imagine black people country denying travel to people from white people country - "you can't come here.. we're not repeating slavery" and then middle eastern people being like "yea, you can't come here neither because of all that anti-muslim shit... and neither can people from (lets say) russia." Like... No lol.

 

[Osmia]

DP- black separatism: I don't really have a concrete opinion on it because I've never considered it as a necessary thing/option. Right now it seems unrealistic & kinda of like a temper tantrum to say "just give us our own shit & we will leave cause we're tired of being around you" like to me that's the same as a kid going to camp out in a tree house cause they're mad at their parents & are tired of their rules. Plus also in this time and age, where everything is a trade of goods.. it seems like it would be really difficult to have any relationships with other countries..but this place would need to have relations with other countries because what if the place doesn't naturally have its own resources. ie : oil and shit, idk. This place wouldn't really have any standing at say the UN. Other countries would probably be mad at this country because there's a possibilty that the black people from those countries will leave to come live in our country. Which then messes with their structure & markets etc. So then our country would 1) look like the spoiled brat of the earth 2) have to pull esstential goods out of our asses 2b) or heavily borrow from other countries which creates debt 3) we might inspire anothers countries black folk to move to this country or back to their roots.

The experimenter in me is like that would be kinda dope to be the first generation of a new country, and being there from the ground up. But realistically I think it's 100% better to change how the system works here in america so that it can work better for everyone instead of saying "fuck this shit i'm out" & only fixing the problems of one group. Because if black people went to our own country or back to where our ancestors are from. Any other minority group would then be the "black people" of america and you'd just have the same problems we are having today. Or they could also say "fuck this shit, we're out too" which then leads to racism and segreation on a worldwide scale. Like can you imagine black people country denying travel to people from white people country - "you can't come here.. we're not repeating slavery" and then middle eastern people being like "yea, you can't come here neither because of all that anti-muslim shit... and neither can people from (lets say) russia." Like... No lol.

I agree with most of this, except for the statement "Because if black people went to our own country or back to where our ancestors are from. Any other minority group would then be the "black people" of america and you'd just have the same problems we are having today."

I think African Americans are a unique minority group due to the inescapable, historical fact of slavery. You often hear white people complain about the very idea of reparations, or assert that they have no guilt because they, personally--and all white Americans alive today, haven't owned slaves. But you can still be responsible, still owe something, even when there is no personal guilt. The society we live in today is our responsibility, and it is still feeling the effects of slavery. Who else is in a position to do something about it? It's us. It's like when you borrow money from a family member, you may feel some resentment toward them because you're beholden to them. You know you have to pay them back, but in the meantime, longstanding family grudges and rivalries will hang over the debt; hence, the resentment. Today's whites didn't "borrow the money," but they still have a responsibility, which they see as a debt, which makes them resentful.

The American Civil War, which was fought over political and property rights (i.e., slavery) ended a century and a half ago, but some important unresolved issues are still causing conflict to this day. For example, the Republican party, whose support base is in the old Confederacy, has been in a low-grade rebellion against the current president (who just happens to be black) for the past 7 1/2 years. The South keeps fighting for states' rights. Here in Texas, the Republican AG's office has sued the Obama administration 40 times. The South is still not as well-developed or wealthy as the rest of the country, as was the case in 1861. Except for Texas and Florida, Southern states receive more from the federal government than they pay in taxes (highly ironic, given their anti-federal government ideology).

All this is just to say that black Americans are uniquely woven into the fabric of this country, and as a white person, I think it's been largely for the better. I can't speak for how African Americans feel about it, but for me, it's hard to imagine there being a net advantage to an all-black enclave of American black émigrés.The trend, at least in the developed world, seems to be toward more racial/ethnic intermingling, not self-segregation.

 

[Mila_]

DP- black separatism: I don't really have a concrete opinion on it because I've never considered it as a necessary thing/option. Right now it seems unrealistic & kinda of like a temper tantrum to say "just give us our own shit & we will leave cause we're tired of being around you" like to me that's the same as a kid going to camp out in a tree house cause they're mad at their parents & are tired of their rules. Plus also in this time and age, where everything is a trade of goods.. it seems like it would be really difficult to have any relationships with other countries..but this place would need to have relations with other countries because what if the place doesn't naturally have its own resources. ie : oil and shit, idk. This place wouldn't really have any standing at say the UN. Other countries would probably be mad at this country because there's a possibilty that the black people from those countries will leave to come live in our country. Which then messes with their structure & markets etc. So then our country would 1) look like the spoiled brat of the earth 2) have to pull esstential goods out of our asses 2b) or heavily borrow from other countries which creates debt 3) we might inspire anothers countries black folk to move to this country or back to their roots.

The experimenter in me is like that would be kinda dope to be the first generation of a new country, and being there from the ground up. But realistically I think it's 100% better to change how the system works here in america so that it can work better for everyone instead of saying "fuck this shit i'm out" & only fixing the problems of one group. Because if black people went to our own country or back to where our ancestors are from. Any other minority group would then be the "black people" of america and you'd just have the same problems we are having today. Or they could also say "fuck this shit, we're out too" which then leads to racism and segreation on a worldwide scale. Like can you imagine black people country denying travel to people from white people country - "you can't come here.. we're not repeating slavery" and then middle eastern people being like "yea, you can't come here neither because of all that anti-muslim shit... and neither can people from (lets say) russia." Like... No lol.

This woman has a really short fuse and goes batshit insane on me often enough that I have her on ignore which is why I try to avoid engaging her as much as possible, but I do want to address some of her points. I apologize in advance if this causes a flare up on this thread (I wont reply to her again after this one post)

It is true that the idea of creating a separate african-american state is unrealistic right now. Simply because it doesn't have enough traction within the black community. And if there is no support for the idea there are no people fighting for it. Part of the reason could be because it isn't convenient for the people in power both within the black community and outside of it. The left has an allegiance with minority agitators such as Al Sharpton. They offer minority communities special privileges and in exchange minority activists provide them with agitation on command. I could extend on the mechanics of this allegiance but it is too long of a subject for this thread. The fact is this is a sweet deal for the people on top, both on the left (dems, media, faculties) and on minority side of the equation (al sharpton & co). But a terrible deal for the little people all around like cops and regular black folk who have to live with the consequences of this permanent state of revolution. If the racial problems were ever going to be solved the solutions will not come this way. They wont come through fanning the flames of past resentments and making up lies about the present. The future you want wont come this way.

Now I want to address the other 3 points you made. The three reasons you give for rejecting the idea are all related to the fact that having your own country would be too much work, it would be less comfortable, or at least less convenient than simply remaining in the US. And here is the important part you need to see: every country in the world has to face these issues you mention: the international community perception of them, sustainability, and relationship with other countries. Building a country from the ground up isn't easy, and yet every nation on Earth has done this. To me, the fact that your opinion of having your own country is "too much work" and at the same time you support BLM's claims that there is a system of discrimination against you in this country is a contradiction. Because if that was truly the case you wouldn't be thinking about comfort. The Armenians didn't stop to consider whether or not fleeing the Ottoman Empire was too much work. They were being prosecuted, discriminated against, and outright killed. They fled. Now they have Armenia, they declared their independence in 1990. And Armenia might face a lot of problems, but they are free, it is their country and they fought hard for it.

Jews did it too. Israel was a barren land. Half of it was a desert and the other half of it was a swamp. But jews didnt stop to think "I think fleeing Europe right now is a tantrum and we better try to fix these issues". And jews didn't think "man, it will be hard starting from scratch on that desert". Jews fled and got busy and started building and fixing shit, and now Israel is a prosperous country. It took some time to build it but at least we now have an army to defend us and a land we call our own. Israel has many problems, especially with the international community perception, but nobody said it would be easy. It beats being killed.

Then there is the gypsies. Like you they reject the idea of having their own country, I dont think it is because they think it is too much work, although maybe they do, they don't fight for a country of their own because it goes against their way of life. They have always been a nomadic group and they dont want to change their ways. And trust me, there is a lot of tension between the spanish and the gypsies in Spain. Like someone else commented on this thread about her ethnic sounding name, in Spain if your last name is "Fajardo" (traditionally gypsy last name) the odds that someone will hire you as an employee are really slim. And yet they give no fucks. They have their own businesses and hire each other and defend themselves and their way of life and they know that they chose that way and "discrimination" comes with the territory when you are a minority. They don't whine and bitch and make up lies about the cops targetting them for murder. They know who they are, they know who the spaniards are, and they live knowing that the differences will never be "healed" but this is a choice they make.

But from what I read on your post you see the black community as "the children" of America. Like the US was your parents and this idea would be like running away from home. And this is part of the problem. You aren't children. You are grown men and women. You are a people. And adult people take care of their issues. Adult people find solutions. Because you do have a choice. If you choose to stay in America you need to do so being fully aware of the consequences of your choice. Racial bias wont ever go away, it is part of human nature, you can accept this and try to make the best of this situation, or you can choose to follow your own path and be independent from the system. But what you cannot do, because it will only create a state of permanent crisis with no solutions is make matters worse by making up fantasies about genocide and demonizing others. This will get you nowhere.

Disclaimer: this is obviously my personal opinion.

 

[LioraVox]

I agree with most of this, except for the statement "Because if black people went to our own country or back to where our ancestors are from. Any other minority group would then be the "black people" of america and you'd just have the same problems we are having today."

I think African Americans are a unique minority group due to the inescapable, historical fact of slavery. You often hear white people complain about the very idea of reparations, or assert that they have no guilt because they, personally--and all white Americans alive today, haven't owned slaves. But you can still be responsible, still owe something, even when there is no personal guilt. The society we live in today is our responsibility, and it is still feeling the effects of slavery. Who else is in a position to do something about it? It's us. It's like when you borrow money from a family member, you may feel some resentment toward them because you're beholden to them. You know you have to pay them back, but in the meantime, longstanding family grudges and rivalries will hang over the debt; hence, the resentment. Today's whites didn't "borrow the money," but they still have a responsibility, which they see as a debt, which makes them resentful.

The American Civil War, which was fought over political and property rights (i.e., slavery) ended a century and a half ago, but some important unresolved issues are still causing conflict to this day. For example, the Republican party, whose support base is in the old Confederacy, has been in a low-grade rebellion against the current president (who just happens to be black) for the past 7 1/2 years. The South keeps fighting for states' rights. Here in Texas, the Republican AG's office has sued the Obama administration 40 times. The South is still not as well-developed or wealthy as the rest of the country, as was the case in 1861. Except for Texas and Florida, Southern states receive more from the federal government than they pay in taxes (highly ironic, given their anti-federal government ideology).

All this is just to say that black Americans are uniquely woven into the fabric of this country, and as a white person, I think it's been largely for the better. I can't speak for how African Americans feel about it, but for me, it's hard to imagine there being a net advantage to an all-black enclave of American black émigrés.The trend, at least in the developed world, seems to be toward more racial/ethnic intermingling, not self-segregation.

I guess what I meant was that another minority group would be the next to "fill the role". So just because black people leave America, doesn't mean black problems also leave. LEO's would still be instructed to stop & frisk minorities, there will still be police brutality, minority citizens will still be at a disadvantage it just won't be black people. There will still be low economic neighborhoods, still facing the problems of being a low economic neighborhood. I feel like it will just get directed to another minority group. And to me, that doesn't really solve anything.

 

[Osmia]

I guess what I meant was that another minority group would be the next to "fill the role". So just because black people leave America, doesn't mean black problems also leave. LEO's would still be instructed to stop & frisk minorities, there will still be police brutality, minority citizens will still be at a disadvantage it just won't be black people. There will still be low economic neighborhoods, still facing the problems of being a low economic neighborhood. I feel like it will just get directed to another minority group. And to me, that doesn't really solve anything.

What I'm saying is that minority groups in the US are not interchangeable. They each have their own history--before they came here and after. So, if American blacks were to leave, I think the remaining minorities would continue to be treated much as they were before blacks left.

 

[EspiKvlt]

I have been gone from the site all this week and missed so much. I had to catch up on the thread that brought on this one, then read through the last six pages, which was a lot to take in and I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

But I do want to bring up something from the last thread that I haven't seen brought up again:

What does BLM do? They call for segregation. They refuse service to whites just because they are whites. They ban white people from their meetings.

This is untrue. @supermila, you wanted to know why people were disagreeing with this post, and that was the main reason I did.

I've gone to a lot of BLM protests. They were nothing but welcoming to myself and the many other white people that were there. The idea that they don't want the support of white people is untrue. I have never had a black person be anything but kind and welcoming to my support of the #BLM movement.

 

[LioraVox]

What I'm saying is that minority groups in the US are not interchangeable. They each have their own history--before they came here and after. So, if American blacks were to leave, I think the remaining minorities would continue to be treated much as they were before blacks left.

Ah, okay. Hmm. Yes, they will still be treated as normal, but also they will be targeted more. For example, there's a quota for cops to make arrest, in NYC there's a quota for how many stop & frisks they do. If black americans were to leave that means that the quota will most likely still exist but the population doesn't so other minority groups would be targetted more to keep the numbers up. The differences in how races are treated in america will exist and still be an issue. It's not a matter of if the black people leave - racism and race issues will leave too.

This woman has a really short fuse and goes batshit insane on me often enough that I have her on ignore which is why I try to avoid engaging her as much as possible, but I do want to address some of her points. I apologize in advance if this causes a flare up on this thread (I wont reply to her again after this one post)

It is true that the idea of creating a separate african-american state is unrealistic right now. Simply because it doesn't have enough traction within the black community. And if there is no support for the idea there are no people fighting for it. Part of the reason could be because it isn't convenient for the people in power both within the black community and outside of it. The left has an allegiance with minority agitators such as Al Sharpton. They offer minority communities special privileges and in exchange minority activists provide them with agitation on command. I could extend on the mechanics of this allegiance but it is too long of a subject for this thread. The fact is this is a sweet deal for the people on top, both on the left (dems, media, faculties) and on minority side of the equation (al sharpton & co). But a terrible deal for the little people all around like cops and regular black folk who have to live with the consequences of this permanent state of revolution. If the racial problems were ever going to be solved the solutions will not come this way. They wont come through fanning the flames of past resentments and making up lies about the present. The future you want wont come this way.

Now I want to address the other 3 points you made. The three reasons you give for rejecting the idea are all related to the fact that having your own country would be too much work, it would be less comfortable, or at least less convenient than simply remaining in the US. And here is the important part you need to see: every country in the world has to face these issues you mention: the international community perception of them, sustainability, and relationship with other countries. Building a country from the ground up isn't easy, and yet every nation on Earth has done this. To me, the fact that your opinion of having your own country is "too much work" and at the same time you support BLM's claims that there is a system of discrimination against you in this country is a contradiction. Because if that was truly the case you wouldn't be thinking about comfort. The Armenians didn't stop to consider whether or not fleeing the Ottoman Empire was too much work. They were being prosecuted, discriminated against, and outright killed. They fled. Now they have Armenia, they declared their independence in 1990. And Armenia might face a lot of problems, but they are free, it is their country and they fought hard for it.

Jews did it too. Israel was a barren land. Half of it was a desert and the other half of it was a swamp. But jews didnt stop to think "I think fleeing Europe right now is a tantrum and we better try to fix these issues". And jews didn't think "man, it will be hard starting from scratch on that desert". Jews fled and got busy and started building and fixing shit, and now Israel is a prosperous country. It took some time to build it but at least we now have an army to defend us and a land we call our own. Israel has many problems, especially with the international community perception, but nobody said it would be easy. It beats being killed.

Then there is the gypsies. Like you they reject the idea of having their own country, I dont think it is because they think it is too much work, although maybe they do, they don't fight for a country of their own because it goes against their way of life. They have always been a nomadic group and they dont want to change their ways. And trust me, there is a lot of tension between the spanish and the gypsies in Spain. Like someone else commented on this thread about her ethnic sounding name, in Spain if your last name is "Fajardo" (traditionally gypsy last name) the odds that someone will hire you as an employee are really slim. And yet they give no fucks. They have their own businesses and hire each other and defend themselves and their way of life and they know that they chose that way and "discrimination" comes with the territory when you are a minority. They don't whine and bitch and make up lies about the cops targetting them for murder. They know who they are, they know who the spaniards are, and they live knowing that the differences will never be "healed" but this is a choice they make.

But from what I read on your post you see the black community as "the children" of America. Like the US was your parents and this idea would be like running away from home. And this is part of the problem. You aren't children. You are grown men and women. You are a people. And adult people take care of their issues. Adult people find solutions. Because you do have a choice. If you choose to stay in America you need to do so being fully aware of the consequences of your choice. Racial bias wont ever go away, it is part of human nature, you can accept this and try to make the best of this situation, or you can choose to follow your own path and be independent from the system. But what you cannot do, because it will only create a state of permanent crisis with no solutions is make matters worse by making up fantasies about genocide and demonizing others. This will get you nowhere.

Disclaimer: this is obviously my personal opinion.

Black people kind of are "the children" of America though.. most of us are here because of slavery, not immigration. I think you misunderstood me in my reasoning. Maybe it's personally different for you because you move around a lot & have moved away from your country to get away from its problems. So you see it as a clear "if you don't like it" = leave. Because that's your own personal experience. But America has always been my home and will probably be home to my children. I'm just tired of feeling like I'm unwelcome in my own home. I'm tired of having worries & fears for a child I don't even have because of how america treats me or my peers. I didn't mean it as "I don't want to do the work" I meant it would be a lot of unnecessary work. I don't know where "making up fantasies about genocide and demonizing others" comes from because I don't recall anyone making that statement but I'm sure if it was that bad, people would leave.

"Racial bias wont ever go away, it is part of human nature, you can accept this and try to make the best of this situation" - This is what I feel BLM is doing. We are just straight up asking for a fair game, black people would like to not feel like we are less than someone else. Speaking on police brutality towards black lives, will force law makers to address police brutality as a whole if more people would stop focusing on the "black" part and just say yea shit's fucked up- lets fix this." Let's fix how we tell our officers to go looking for criminals, lets fix how there are judges who give harsher sentences to people of color. Let's fix the fact that as a minority with an ethnic name you have to change it in order to be hired. These are real issues that seem stupid to even exist. Person-to-person racial bias will always exist, thats a fact, but systematic racial bias doesn't serve a positive purpose. Or more so, it shouldn't serve a positive purpose. And in my opinion, it's better for black people to stay and voice our disdain for current policies instead of leaving and creating our own.

And again I view BLM as the openers to a discussion, a discussion that america desperately needs to have. If all the people willing to have that discussion were to leave those same problems don't get fixed.

 

[LioraVox]

 

[Mila_]

I have been gone from the site all this week and missed so much. I had to catch up on the thread that brought on this one, then read through the last six pages, which was a lot to take in and I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

But I do want to bring up something from the last thread that I haven't seen brought up again:



This is untrue. @supermila, you wanted to know why people were disagreeing with this post, and that was the main reason I did.

I've gone to a lot of BLM protests. They were nothing but welcoming to myself and the many other white people that were there. The idea that they don't want the support of white people is untrue. I have never had a black person be anything but kind and welcoming to my support of the #BLM movement.

A 5 minute Google search before calling it "untruths" would be nice.



There are hundreds of instances if you look the issue up. These were just the first results that came up.

 

[EspiKvlt]

I was using anecdotal evidence. I didn't feel a need to Google search something I had experienced first hand.

 

[LioraVox]

(ugh I tried to change it to only the news interview but got caught up watching other videos after missed the but : NYPD Says Proof of Quota Driven Arrest
Also this video : it's from 2013 but it explains Stop & Frisk very clearly and why it's harmful.

 

[Gen]

I have been gone from the site all this week and missed so much. I had to catch up on the thread that brought on this one, then read through the last six pages, which was a lot to take in and I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

But I do want to bring up something from the last thread that I haven't seen brought up again:



This is untrue. @supermila, you wanted to know why people were disagreeing with this post, and that was the main reason I did.

I've gone to a lot of BLM protests. They were nothing but welcoming to myself and the many other white people that were there. The idea that they don't want the support of white people is untrue. I have never had a black person be anything but kind and welcoming to my support of the #BLM movement.

There have definitely been BLM events that are for black or POC folks only, or where they ask white people to step aside and participate less or let POC take centre stage, so to speak. I think whether that encourages segregation is kind of up for debate, though? I guess in a very straightforward sense it is but I am also of the belief that sometimes those spaces are beneficial. For example if I went to a group meeting for sex workers, I'd want it to be just sex workers and not necessarily sex worker allies, even if I appreciate them in other capacities. I think there is definitely a need for involving people who don't identify as whatever group is involved (eg, men in feminist movements, non-sex workers in sex work rights movements, etc) but I can also understand the need or want for some events to be more about coming together with others in similar situations to you. And I don't think it necessarily encourages segregation on a broader level? Idk.

 

[Ambers Troll]

There is a big lack of understanding by most people of exactly what 'hot spot' policing involves and why it is done that way.
I am a middle aged light skinned man and been searched 3 times in the last few months. This was because I live in a higher crime area during a POP (problem oriented policing) event and I am out in the area, usually with a bag as I am travelling to work at night.
Be out in the middle of one of these things and you will be assessed against that policing program for that event. Loiter or be antisocial at one of these times and you will be more deeply assessed due to the crimes police are chasing/ preventing being ones where people tend to loiter, let the police do their search and then they will move on. It is pointless getting upset about the disruption and taking the search as some kind of accusation, it usually isn't. This is where local police are critical, they can more easily assess behaviour that doesn't fit.

There are actually 3 types of crime hot spot policing used. We have few crackdowns here, but get aggressive patrols at times of high risk. Everyone out, and I do mean everyone is usually assessed in some way.
Hot spot policing is based on geography/ location, and there are things the community can do to modify these areas to reduce crime (this is the third type, using police and community to modify the risk). For example I used to have an area where people could hide from police, shoot up, loiter, litter, and harass others outside of my property, but since opening up the area it has all gone except those passing through. The BLM movement should focus on this type of structure if they are serious about reducing things such as searches in their community. Police will always be told by the stats programs to follow the hot spots.

Traffic stops are a whole other issue, issues with traffic come down more to city design and distribution/ makeup of the population. A different type of policing structure than hotspots.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

When I first saw this video, I strongly identified with one thing; contempt for both political parties.

Both are responsible for Prohibition, which has exacerbated this problem. Both are responsible for giving our police more power, incentivising corruption and abuse, all while fueling a thug culture.

Then we ask good men and women to die and kill for it, we ignore the civil rights of noncombatants, and oh, btw, don't let race creep into it?

For example if I went to a group meeting for sex workers, I'd want it to be just sex workers and not necessarily sex worker allies, even if I appreciate them in other capacities.

I agree with this. Another example would be a male survivors group that does not accept members until they have been interviewed.

This is a self described black movement. They are concerned with black people.

 

[Mila_]

There have definitely been BLM events that are for black or POC folks only, or where they ask white people to step aside and participate less or let POC take centre stage, so to speak. I think whether that encourages segregation is kind of up for debate, though? I guess in a very straightforward sense it is but I am also of the belief that sometimes those spaces are beneficial. For example if I went to a group meeting for sex workers, I'd want it to be just sex workers and not necessarily sex worker allies, even if I appreciate them in other capacities. I think there is definitely a need for involving people who don't identify as whatever group is involved (eg, men in feminist movements, non-sex workers in sex work rights movements, etc) but I can also understand the need or want for some events to be more about coming together with others in similar situations to you. And I don't think it necessarily encourages segregation on a broader level? Idk.

But then.. the exact same people who want to do this go out of their way to bash other groups for doing the same thing. It was feminists who campaigned hard to ban men-only clubs, and they got it. It is illegal in several states now. I would also argue that black groups like BLM would go batshit crazy if white people wanted to have white-only safe spaces. Sex workers would get pretty worked up if straight vanilla job people wanted to ban sex workers from certain events. Gays lose it when a christian baker doesn't want to bake a wedding cake for them. And so on and so on. Why is it okay for blacks/sex workers/women/gays to do this and bad for everyone else? Inb4 muh oppreshun: you really can't use victimhood like a wild card to justify every racist attitude your group might have against others while demonizing them for doing the same thing to you.

 

[LuckySmiles]

This was such a beautiful thing to watch. Van Jones speaking so much knowledge. I've never seen someone so flawlessly turn an interview around 180 degrees. Most of it is related to Black Lives Matters and police shootings, so I think it's relevant, and it was so good I just had to share:

This video is well worth half hour of time, I felt the need to repost.

An important thing that comes up over and over in it, are how they're both in agreement that pride in America and democracy, is the only way to get past this mess.

I thought everyone was being paranoid when linking BLM with communism but I missed the stance on Globalism as well as some other key links.

Fear of Globalization in America has nothing to do with racism. At all. The notion that it is, and was posted once earlier in this thread, is so absurd... I don't have the time to break it down but I feel very strongly about this.

True free market capitalism is actually the great equalizer in terms of discrimination.
I never understood why so many camgirls, who benefit so greatly from this type of model, are anti-capitalism. Think about it...start with nothing, earn based on work ethic/adaptability/market trends etc. In camming personal biases exist but are not universal or limiting to your potential. We tell this all the time to newbs on this forum.

People often mix up Capitalism with Corporatism in America. There's a lot of other factors of why it isn't as well as it could be right now(but still so so much better than everywhere else), and has much to do with corruption and can only be fought through checks and balances of power in true democracy.

BLM is much more intertwined with Communism than I initially realized. If that doesn't concern you, or you think that's a good thing... read about @supermila's accounts of what's happening now in Venezuela one more time. American Patriotism does not equal racism. It's so, so very important to understand that.

video relevant. only 5 minutes:

 

[justjoinedtopost]

BLM is much more intertwined with Communism than I initially realized. If that doesn't concern you, or you think that's a good thing... read about @supermila's accounts of what's happening now in Venezuela one more time. American Patriotism does not equal racism. It's so, so very important to understand that.

video relevant. only 5 minutes:

The emboldened part, I am in complete agreement. I don't agree with @supermila 100%, but then again, I shouldn't. On the communism issue though, she is a tornado siren.

I do not discount the concerns, nor the experiences, of those in BLM. Indeed I share in them.

 

[Osmia]

....There are actually 3 types of crime hot spot policing used. We have few crackdowns here, but get aggressive patrols at times of high risk. Everyone out, and I do mean everyone is usually assessed in some way.

I.e., it doesn't seem t be race-based?

Hot spot policing is based on geography/ location, and there are things the community can do to modify these areas to reduce crime (this is the third type, using police and community to modify the risk). For example I used to have an area where people could hide from police, shoot up, loiter, litter, and harass others outside of my property, but since opening up the area it has all gone except those passing through. The BLM movement should focus on this type of structure if they are serious about reducing things such as searches in their community. Police will always be told by the stats programs to follow the hot spots.

This is a very interesting and important point. There's an academic field called behavioral economics that looks at the psychology of economic decision-making. Nudge, a popular book for a general audience, expanded the notion beyond strictly economic behavior to look at simple ways that people could be encouraged to make the "right" decisions. One of the frequently cited examples is that when people start a new job, they normally must affirmatively choose to enroll in a retirement savings plan (i.e., the default choice is No). By making the default choice Yes, more people will end up enrolling. It's still their choice. It may seem a bit paternalistic, but having the default as No is just as paternalistic.

So, in your example, the relatively simple act of opening up that enclosed area changed the criminals' "choice architecture" so they chose to not commit crimes there any longer. One could argue that they might just go somewhere else. But if these enclaves and refuges for crime are eliminated or greatly reduced in a neighborhood, maybe these people would choose more socially-acceptable behaviors and have fewer run-ins with the police.

I wonder whether it's a part of BLM's strategy to focus on these physical/environmental fixes. The fixes could complement the more traditional activities of protesting, organizing and persuasion. In some cases, the fix may be expensive, or the property owner may not be cooperative or needs to be persuaded.

 

[Ms_Diane]

True free market capitalism is actually the great equalizer in terms of discrimination.
I never understood why so many camgirls, who benefit so greatly from this type of model, are anti-capitalism. Think about it...start with nothing, earn based on work ethic/adaptability/market trends etc. In camming personal biases exist but are not universal or limiting to your potential. We tell this all the time to newbs on this forum.

Are you talking about successful people? Like, if capitalism is working for you and you are making lots o cash then why are you complaining about capitalism?

Personally I think capitalism is a bad idea and that it is a really harmful model to base our society on. But I also live in reality and need money in order to stay alive.

I was talking with a friend recently about capitalism, and he was like, "well I'm doing ok, capitalism has worked pretty well for me." And I thought, but it's not just about you, there's a shit ton of people for whom capitalism is not working. I think it works against them actually. Being successful has nothing to do with it. "Success" according to capitalism doesn't fulfill anything of importance for humans except to make money, unless making money is fulfilling for you. True people are pissed about the coporatization of society, but I think it is so deeply connected to capitalism that it is difficult to talk about one without the other today.

I don't really want to get into a debate about capitalism and derail the conversation, just saying that unless you decide to go off-grid, most people who are anti-capitalist know they have to participate in capitalism in order to survive.

More on point - the connection of communism with BLM. I have heard communism get tossed around a bunch lately (not just in this thread) and wonder if people are confusing it with socialism? Like, if the media is portraying socialist ideas as communist. If that is happening then it's a big mistake.

 

[LuckySmiles]

More on point - the connection of communism with BLM. I have heard communism get tossed around a bunch lately (not just in this thread) and wonder if people are confusing it with socialism? Like, if the media is portraying socialist ideas as communist. If that is happening then it's a big mistake.

NO! The media is not really saying this at all... this is a result of me doing too much digging down the rabbit hole, and some independent media sources. Honestly freaks me out a bit. Here's the most comprehensive article on it, but I'm not just going off of articles...
http://www.aim.org/special-report/reds-exploiting-blacks-the-roots-of-black-lives-matter/

The more and more you dig the more it appears the lives lost here are being exploited to mobilize political agendas. Most people participating or supporting BLM are not intentionally doing this, obviously.

I honestly care about the issue and I'm not trying to discredit the group for the hell of it. But something has just felt off on it to me for a long time. I'm someone very sensitive/sympathetic to these kinds of causes. I don't know how to explain it without seeming looney tunes, but if I can't be sold on something like this it tells me in my gut somethings up.