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I thought it was obvious why I might not be planning a webcam studio in Afghanistan. (or anywhere really but hi... webcam models/islam don't exactly mix well)

I think todays events alone could demonstrate.. why that might not be a great idea.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ted-american-university-afghanistan/89255840/
Yeah, go submit that USATODAY link to these people. Pick up a Trump tshirt while you are there.
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
When you are done with that, go find a version of Christianity free of liberal influences and let me know how well it mixes with webcam modelling.

Here is what I wonder. Look at the red on this map...

religionMap-480x419.jpg


If this country collapses economically, how long is it going to take for this region to devolve into something resembling Afghanistan? Make it so these people can't afford to fill their tanks, take away their fried chicken, then just sit back and enjoy the show.

I watched this take place...
GFDH_APPLICATION_DENIED_051.jpg

Very small; no bombs, no beheadings, and that is not because their ideology is superior in any way to Islam. Pissed me right the hell off, but that was tempered by the number of people in the area who were willing to call them out on their bullshit.

So did I witness just a handful of people, or are they just the tip of an iceberg, the only ones who could be assed with turning off the TV that night?

If Christianity can be part nuts, part decent people who are relatively complacent as long as they are fed, I see no reason why Islam can't be too.
If Islam is a politically and culturally subversive force that seeks to dominate, then it is following in the footsteps of its older sibling.
Again I have no problem with people who emigrate willingly or choose to be a part of an inclusive culture. I do have concern over people who are encouraged to, that do not necessarily want to for cultural reasons.
Same here. I guess the biggest part of the problem here is that immigration is a combination of both.

If you poo me for this post, I will howl bloody murder.
 
If you have no problem excusing yourself from any liability based upon your non-involvement and the withholding of your support, then surely you can extend the same privelege to the Muslims who aren't blowing things up. That, or openly embrace your hypocrisy...

I don't think it is fair to ask you, or people who are like you, to accept getting blown up.
If this mess spirals too far out of control (if it hasn't already), I think opening an inclusive webcam studio for everybody is going to be the furthest thing from your mind.

I didn't want to expand on this but...oh well words.. words happened.

I care more about my family, friends, the cities and states and country I live in then anybody else's. I am willing to help those that are a part of those communities before anyone else. I make no apologies for this, and do not feel guilty for this.

I will play the 9/11 card because it's the closest most modern Americans have felt to being at war in your home. I had to go home from school early that day, I had no cell phone yet (although I think most weren't working anyway) and got to an empty home where the tv channels didn't all come in. There was a major broadcasting signal in that spire on top of one of the towers that was knocked down.
No one, in my family of first responders, was home when I got there (at about 1pm),so I felt a level fear many did not that day. I eventually found and joined them at a local hospital volunteering to help people that we realized were not showing up. I was very lucky, but also, if only briefly,made very aware of what it feels like to be at war. When you do not know if your family is safe, when your tv doesn't work, you have no communications, and there are historical land marks you grew up with falling down a mere few miles away. It was 15 years ago so hey maybe everyone should get over it? Or maybe more people need to remember what that feels like. Since it is the easiest way for us to relate to these other places, and many parts of Europe right now.

But I care more about Americans than these other people. I'm ok with that. And it does not make me feel guilty. I do not want Americans to live in fear or become anything remotely close to countries that have to, every day. I make no apologies for this. I do not care what anybody practices for their religion. I do care more about an American Muslim than an Afghani Muslim. I would fear more someone who showed up from Afghanistan tomorrow than my neighbors of a "Muslim" family (that wear traditional scantily clad american clothes and seem to drink and gamble more than I do)

I also care more about the friends and family who've served their communities and country than the people who think it's ok to dismiss their efforts because of the politics involved. It's gotten a bit old.

I also do webcam from my home sometimes. I would (and have) let friend/family stay with me in a jam. I would even similarly consider helping someone I didn't know very well. But I would not feel comfortable letting a Muslim refugee family stay with me to help them. And I am not going to pretend like I would be. I don't see what's happening now as that much different from that. Even if not in my literal house, I would be more distrusting of a next door Muslim family who has been involved on the receiving end of American involved war for 15 years than a Muslim family that has lived here for 15 years. I would not fault them for any negative feelings towards ordinary Americans, but I am also not going to sit here and pretend they might not exist.

Detroit has seen an improvement in crime rates in the last 4 years,am I going to tell a friend that they'll be perfectly safe on a street that has no lights on and still looks like downtown Baghdad? No, I'm not an asshole friend. And I care more about American places and people that are living like this, than those abroad. If that makes me a monster, so be it.

Oh ffs I just got your other post.
@justjoinedtopost
Here's ABC coverage of todays attack.. feel better about it? Is it more believable this time? It was top story on CNN earlier as well but has already been bumped (shocker)
http://abcnews.go.com/International/american-university-attacked-kabul-afghanistan/story?id=41618784

Your comparisons are invalid. And I stand by my statements. The likelihood is slim to be stoned in America for being a webcam model. Here's the difference and beauty of America... you can go up to those people protesting Islam in your town and talk to them if you'd like... and have an actual concern about it, instead of posting the pictures on the internet.
 
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Let's begin by understanding islam's sacred texts. The first text and the most important is the Qur'an.

THE QUR'AN


It is the most important because unlike the gospels or the Bible, the Qur'an was not written by a man. For islam the Qur'an was written by God himself. It was only transmitted to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel throughout all of his life, who then dictated it to his followers who wrote the revelations down. It is an important difference because it means that the Qur'an cannot be questioned without questioning God in the process.

Since the Qur'an was written by God himself, it's content is sacred, it cannot be questioned, it is immutable and permanent and it must be accepted in it's totality by any muslim man.

When it comes to the shape and content of the Qur'an it's extension is similar to the New Testament. It is divided into 114 Suras (something similar to a chapter) and each Sura contains several Ayahs which are verses.

If you read the Qur'an all the way through you will not understand it because the ahyas are not placed in chronological order. It isn't ordered thematically either. It is compiled by the length of the Suras: the longest Suras go first.

Another thing that makes the Qur'an hard to understand for someone who is reading it for the first time is the fact that many of it's ayahs are about events in the life of Muhammad that are not directly narrated on the Qur'an. In order to understand what those parts are about you need to first know what events they refer to and in order to know that you must be familiar with the life of Muhammad. A muslim who knows the life of Muhammad in detail and a westerner who doesn't will understand two different things when they read the Qur'an.

The islamic theology divides the Suras in 2 categories: the suras that were revealed in Mecca, and the suras that were revealed in Medina. They are divided in such way because Muhammad's life had two parts: at the beginning, Muhammad lived with his followers in Mecca and they were a vulnerable minority under the rule of the polytheists. Then he had to flee Mecca to Medina and while in Medina Muhammad became the leader of an army that conquered the entire area.

While in Mecca Muhammad revealed many pacific ideas, for example, the idea that religion should be free and you cannot force another person to adopt islam.

This pacific fragment was revealed in Meca:

Say “Oh disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
For you is your religion and for me is my religion.”

(109)

And this other pacific fragment was revealed soon after, when they had just fled Mecca and were settling in Medina:

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
(2:256)

But after settling in Medina, Muhammad became a truly powerful leader. He started to amass a great following, took over the city, and then started to wage a war of conquest against all its neighbors. As Muhammad became more powerful the tone of his revelations changed from peaceful to violent.

In Medina, Muhammad revealed that the infidels must be captured, sieged, and killed unless they converted and did the muslim prayers, and paid the muslim tax. He revealed that incredulity must be erradicated until the only religion left in the world was islam. He revealed Allah has enemies that must be defeated by force and you must massacre the enemies of Allah if you want access to the afterlife.

These are some of the violent fragments that were revealed in Medina:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them go on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
(9:5)

And fight them until there is no incredulity and until the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
(8:39)

It is proper for a prophet to keep captives of war until he inflicts a massacre upon Allah 's enemies in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires for you the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
(8:67)

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - Fight them until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
(9:29)

In short: the Qur'an orders explicitly to not impose religion by force while at the same time orders to fight against anyone who is not a muslim until they die or convert. The Qur'an teaches to respect the monotheists (those who were given the Scripture), but then it orders to to subjugate them. It teaches to tolerate the pagan and at the same time it teaches that a great massacre must be inflicted upon them.

The muslim believer then seems to be facing a contradiction that it is impossible to resolve: it is impossible to accept all of the Qur'an and apply it when two of it's parts contradict each other. In order to follow one of the parts you must disobey the other.

But if the Qur'an was written by God and it is eternal, how can it admit contradictions? Can God change his mind? If the answer is "yes" then, how do we know which one of his opinions we should follow and which one to discard? How can a muslim accept one part of the qur'an and reject another?

Facing all these contradictions in his revelations and trying to give an answer to his followers' questions, Muhammad revealed the principle of abrogation which is a part of the Qur'an and basically states that if two verses in the Qur'an contradict each other then the most recent one is the one you should follow as it supersedes the older one and "annuls" it:

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except when We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?
(2:106)

What this ayah indicates is that the most recent verses annul the older verses. Meaning that if you find 2 verses that contradict each other you need to find out which one was revealed first and which one was revealed later because the second one annuls the first.

Following the principle of abrogation we realize that the violent passages that were revealed in Medina annul the peaceful ones that were revealed in Mecca. Meaning: between not imposing religion by force or fighting infidels until they convert, you must do the latter.


There are many contradictory ayah within the Qur'an, it isn't only about the fight against infidels. For example, when it comes to alcohol. In Mecca Muhammad revealed that alcohol and gambling were a sin but they also had benefits and the only thing that was forbidden was to drink during prayer (2:219), but later, in Medina, the ayah regarding alcohol became stricter until Muhammad forbid drinking and gambling altogether (5:91). Today, no muslim that follows their faith considers that drinking alcohol is allowed, as the second ayah annulled the first one.

Many things were imposed by Muhammad in Medina, like the penalty of death for apostates of the religion, he increased the severity of the punishments for transgressions, for theft, for fornication, and the permitted aggressions against women. The lax and pacific ayahs were all revealed in Meca and the violent and oppressive ayahs were revealed in Medina and since those were revealed later, they abrogate the first ones.


The vast majority of muslim authorities accept the principle of abrogation as valid but they differ in how it should be applied: which ayahs abrogate others. Most consider that an ayah that is revealed later will annul any similar ayah that was revealed before it. Some think only the ayahs that contradict each other must be annulled. A minority considers that the abrogation principle is valid but ayahs can only be abrogated or sustained depending on the context. What this means is that a muslim should act according to the pacific ayahs when his circumstances are similar to those Muhammad faced in Mecca: when he is living in a society of infidels in which muslims are a minority; and that he must act like Muhammad in Medina and follow the violent ayahs when he is in a country with a muslim majority or when there is an organized islamic army like the one Muhammad had in Medina.

The case is that big chunks of the Qur'an are not about spirituality, but about the war that must be waged against the infidels, the pagans, and the unbelievers with the purpose of expanding the umma which is the "muslim world". The Qur'an establishes the ways in which these objectives must be reached through physical violence as well as other types of subjugation. The Qur'an therefore is not only a religious text, but also the text of a political ideology.


They say that when the Qur'an is recited in arab by an expert it is a beautiful song because the Qur'an is originally written in verse and no translation can properly translate the poetic sense of it. The Qur'an as a written work of literature and as a melody can be an esthetically beautiful work, but ironically this quality only makes the message of intolerance that is written all across the text that more terrible. The problem of intolerance within the Qur'an is more than just a pair of isolated ayahs that were taken out of context, because it is one of the most important themes within the Qur'an. There are over 130 violent orders explicitly written in the Qur'an that must be performed by faithful muslims against anyone who is not a muslim.

In order to understand which ayahs abrogate others it is necessary to know which one was revealed first, but since the Qur'an is not written in chronological order muslims need to use a guide to understand at which point in his life Muhammad revealed each ayah and then reach a conclusion about which one of the two is valid. This guide is the Sunnah, which is the second sacred text in islam.

THE SUNNAH

The Qur'an says that morality flows out of the life of Muhammad and that every muslim must live their life according to the life of Muhammad. This means that the life of Muhammad is not measured against any external morality standards, but it is in itself the moral standard against which the lives of every muslim should be measured. (3:32, 3:164, 33:21) Therefore the way to serve Allah is emulating the actions that Muhammad took in life.

The life of Muhammad is compiled in the
Sunnah which is divided into 2 bodies of text. On the one hand we have the hadiths which are the testimonies of his closest followers, something similar to the gospels. On the other hand is the sirah which is Muhammad's biography narrated in chronological order.

When it comes to the
hadiths, there were thousands of testimonies, some were very long and took several pages, others were so short they took only a couple of lines. When they tried to put them into order, islam scholars discovered that there was a good chance that the majority of those hadiths were fake. Identifying the fake hadiths and separating them from the authentic ones was quite a task. Some branches of islam accept a few testimonies as valid, other branches accept others, but there are 2 that are universally accepted as authentic and those are the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim. They contain 7000 and 12000 testimonies each, although some testimonies are in there more than once.

What is written in these hadiths is very difficult to swallow. It is very difficult to believe that a person of such characteristics would become the prophet of more than a billion people. When someone points at how violent Muhammad was, and offers the hadiths as proof, the listener's reaction is of disbelief. The listener feels ashamed and convinces himself that there must be an error somewhere. The natural reaction is to doubt: either the texts that are being quoted are false, or the critic of islam is making it up, or at the very least he is cherry-picking the data among a sea of peaceful, generous and kind actions Muhammad must have taken in his life and which surely explain how so many people follow islam. This is how the first reaction is to convince yourself that these examples are taken out of context.

But everything I am going to quote next are recounts from the islamic tradition itself, taken from the accepted testimonies of the most faithful of Muhammad's followers, and from the writings of the most reputable scholars of islam's faith. When you study these texts carefully you come to realize that the vast majority of Muhammad's actions were violent, and it is the pacific actions that are the exceptions. When you read the Sunnah you realize that it is impossible to affirm that Muhammad was a peaceful man, or that peace is a part of his message. Muhammad's life was filled with cruel episodes.

So, when you read what comes next you do not have to take my word for it or believe me. But do not discard it without searching for evidence on your own. You can look up every single thing I am pasting here, and even read the Sunnah for yourself if you want to satisfy your doubts. You can even look up the biography of Muhammad as written by a reputable islamic scholar such as Al-Tabari, read it, and draw your own conclusions. What follows next is not in any way my opinion, it is a summary of some of the most representative actions that Muhammad took during his life as they appear in muslim texts.

Muhammad was a militar leader that unified the arabic peninsula by forceful conquest. In order to carry out a plan so ambitious he had to assault caravans, siege cities, organize expulsions, destroy temples, massacre and torture entire towns, lapidate hundreds of people, cut out tongues, hands, feet, and heads, burn those who didn't attend prayer alive, order the rape of women, approve of pedophilia, and personally practiced it when he married a 6 year old girl, and imposed an oppressive law on the entire region. By the end of his life he didn't even tolerate the presence of other monotheists as he ordered the expulsion of all jews and christians from the peninsula. Muhammad brought despair and tragedy to every group that rejected his faith and led a life much more violent that what the Qur'an itself stipulates.

Many of the islamic punishments are not written down in the Qur'an but are described in the Sunnah within the hadiths. For example, lapidation of the adulterous does not appear in the Qur'an but does appear several times in the hadiths as it was a practice Muhammad did frequently and as such it comes to be a part of islam morality: lapidating an adulterer is considered to be good and godly within islam.

All of Muhammad actions both the pacific and benevolent ones and the violent, become the moral standard within islam. And these are some of the things that the hadiths describe about Muhammad:

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

(Bukhari 62:64)

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of 'Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died.

(Bukhari 82:795)

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque.

(Bukhari 23:413)

Narrated Abu Qilaba:
Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle.

(Bukhari 4:234)

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:
When the Messenger of God ordered his death, Uqba asked him, 'Who will look after my children, Muhammad?' And the Prophet said: 'Hell!'... [Uqba was] among the most evil of God's servants, the most stubborn, wicked, envious and disbelieving of men and they had been very active in satirizing Islam and its supporters. God damn them! And He did, indeed!

(Bukhari 4:241)

The cases in which Muhammad showed a violent disposition towards other people are numerous. It isn't just a couple of isolated events. The hadiths are filled with events like these. Muhammad approved the assassination of 800 men and children from the tribe of Qurayza that up until that moment had been his allies. Their men murdered an senile woman after they took her prisoner during the assault to the tribe of Banu Hazara. According to Al-Tabari they killed the old woman by tying each foot with a rope to a camel and riding the camels in opposite directions until she was split in half. Right after they gave the woman's daughter to one of the killers for him to rape her.

One could think that in the 7th Century these types of practices were not out of the ordinary and therefore we are analyzing them out of context. But even though royal punishments and torture were not unheard of, in most kingdoms it wasn't a common sight, much less a practice that was applied massively to entire towns of people. Splitting a senile woman in half using camels was in the 7th century something as brutal and cruel as today is tying the body of an enemy to a motorcycle to drag him through the streets of town. And these things happen currently, but the cruelty does not cease to amaze us.

These cruel practices are what allowed islam to expand at such velocity that in less than 30 years it went from being a small group of people fleeing from Mecca into conquering the entire arabic peninsula and converting (or killing) all of its population. Thirty years is what it took. You do not manage a feat like this without a lot of violence.

Muslim morality looks nothing like western morality. Most of the things Muhammad did and taught are in direct conflict with our way of life.
But muslims cannot question Muhammad's life like a catholic can question the life of a character in the Bible, but they must take every one of his actions as perfect, infallible, desirable, and noble, even when the practices might shake them for how horrible they are. Islamic morality is above the judgement of man (2:216).

Even if a muslim finds one of Muhammad's violent practices unpalatable or painful, his duty as a muslim is to act according to it. Islamic morality is inflexible, often violent, and does not resemble the 10 Commandments. It differs completely from what we consider good and bad in the West. When a muslim leader talks about goodness or wellness, his idea of it is not the same we have.

I am going to finish her for now and leave the other 2 points (teachings/tradition and practices) for a future post.

You're taking one line sentences about his work from Medina completely out of context from the Quran and then pretending the entire page of text before and after don't exist. For example your very first verse, 9.5, you are making it sound like it is about killing all unbelievers, when in fact it's pretty clearly talking about being allowed to fight back in self defense, the passage is clearly not saying "kill all polytheists", it's saying "kill the polytheists that attack you, in self defense, but be good to those that don't harm you"... It's obvious he's talking about a specific people breaking their word and attacking his followers. He is talking about idolaters of Makkah. Verses 9.1 to 9.14:

Quran passage said:
9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
9:2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
9:3 And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
9:4 Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah.Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:8 How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9:9 They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
9:10 They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
9:11 But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun the attack upon you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
9:14 Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people.

For a better explanation:
Professor David Dakake said:
Verse 9:5 was revealed specifically in relation to the Muslims fighting the idolaters of Makkah. The Makkan idolaters are referred to in the Quran by the technical term “mushrikun” (sing. “mushrik”). This term comes from a three letter Arabic root “sh-r-k” which means “to associate” or “take a partner unto something,” so that the word mushrikun literally means, “those who take a partner [unto God],” that is to say, “polytheists” or “idolaters.” It should be noted, therefore, that the injunction in this verse to fight against the “polytheists” does not pertain to either Jews or Christians from the point of view of Islamic Law. Interestingly, Jews and Christians are never referred to within the Quran by the term mushrikun. They have, in fact, a very different “status” or “title” according to the Quran which, when not addressing them as individual communities, often refers to the two groups together by the technical term, ahl al-kitab or “People of the Book,” meaning people who have been given a book or scripture by God other than the Muslims.

Or 8.67, how about actually reading passages 8.65-8.75:
quran said:
8:65 O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.

8:66 Now, Allah has lightened [the hardship] for you, and He knows that among you is weakness. So if there are from you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you a thousand, they will overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. And Allah is with the steadfast.

8:67 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah’s enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

8:68 If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, you would have been touched for what you took by a great punishment.

8:69 So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

8:70 O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, “If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

8:71 But if they intend to betray you – then they have already betrayed Allah before, and He empowered [you] over them. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

8:72 Indeed, those who have believed and emigrated and fought with their wealth and lives in the cause of Allah and those who gave shelter and aided – they are allies of one another. But those who believed and did not emigrate – for you there is no guardianship of them until they emigrate. And if they seek help of you for the religion, then you must help, except against a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty. And Allah is Seeing of what you do.

8:73 And those who disbelieved are allies of one another. If you do not do so, there will be oppression on earth and great corruption.

8:74 But those who have believed and emigrated and fought in the cause of Allah and those who gave shelter and aided – it is they who are the believers, truly. For them is forgiveness and noble provision.

8:75 And those who believed after [the initial emigration] and emigrated and fought with you – they are of you. But those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of all things.

8:67 – This verse refers just after the battle of Badr (624 AD). The injunction in this verse states that no one could be made prisoner unless there was war. So when one becomes the victor, this is the only time Muslims were allowed to take soldiers captive. The Prophet (p), throughout Islamic scripture never beheaded any prisoner. In fact, he released most of them (Asad, Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas, Tafsir Ibn Kathir [1], and Maulana Muhammed Ali).

Or for the explanation of the passage.
explanation said:
8:65 – The Muslims were commanded to get ready to defend the community from the Quraish (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas). The verse eludes to the battle of Badr (624 AD). Here we are the believers are told that if they are ‘twenty’ they could defeat two hundred of them. And if they are ‘hundred’ of them, the believers could defeat a thousand of the enemy soldiers.

8:67 – This verse refers just after the battle of Badr (624 AD). The injunction in this verse states that no one could be made prisoner unless there was war. So when one becomes the victor, this is the only time Muslims were allowed to take soldiers captive. The Prophet (p), throughout Islamic scripture never beheaded any prisoner. In fact, he released most of them (Asad, Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas, Tafsir Ibn Kathir [1], and Maulana Muhammed Ali).

8:69 – God tells the Muslims at the aftermath of the battle of Badr, that they should go and enjoy what they gained, spoils of war (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas). When one sides loses and there remains there stuff behind, the victors take that home to either share it among themselves or the poor, needy and orphans.

8:70 – God here tells the Prophet (p) to say those who were captured in the battle of Badr (624 AD), that if they have any good in their hearts that they will be forgiven for their past hostilities against the Muslims (further details on this verse, who it referred to, read the commentary by Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi).

8:71 – The verse is directed at those captives at the battle of Badr, who were captured. The verse doesn’t tell us specifically if they were released straight away or voluntarily converted to Islam, and then released. The words used here does infer that they were released, and hence shows some may intend on betraying the Muslims, by waging war against the Muslims (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas).

8:72 – “Those who have believed and emigrated and fought with their wealth”, refers to those who believed in the religion of Islam and emigrated to Madinah, and fought to defend the community with their wealth, are true believers (Further details on the verse, read the Quran commentary by Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas).

8:74 – The verse emphasizes on those Muslims that emigrated to Madinah, fought alongside other believers in protecting the persecuted community, and gave shelter, that they are the true believers in the sight of God Almighty. They will be rewarded (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas).

8:75 – Here again, as explained previously it mentions the believers who migrated, believed in Islam and fought against the Quraysh

I could continue with pretty much every quote you used, but you get the picture. You are cherry picking certain lines then pretending they represent all 6,236 verses of the Quran, ignoring all the verses before or after promoting mercy.

You can do the same thing about Judaism and come out erroneously believing that all Jewish people are evil, I'm sure you're all familiar with some of the ridiculous things The Old Testament says if you took it literally (killing for the silliest of offenses, cutting off hands of adulterers, etc).

How about the Talmud (The oral version of the Torah, spoken from God to Moses):

- "Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell." Erubin 21b.
- "If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” Sanhedrin 58b
- “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” Baba Mezia 24a
- “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” Sanhedrin 57a
- “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” Yebamoth 98a
- “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b
- “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” Soferim 15

I could go on and on and on, but I think you get the point. It's silly because these quotes represent Judaism as little as yours do about the Quran. You could also easily cherry pick horrible bible quotes when taken literally. It's all about what the reader of the religious text takes away from it. It's why you can use the Bible to promote helpful charity work or evils like the Crusades.
 
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You're taking one line sentences about his work from Medina completely out of context from the Quran and then pretending the entire page of text before and after don't exist. For example your very first verse, 9.5, you are making it sound like it is about killing all unbelievers, when in fact it's pretty clearly talking about being allowed to fight back in self defense, the passage is clearly not saying "kill all polytheists", it's saying "kill the polytheists that attack you, in self defense, but be good to those that don't harm you"... It's obvious he's talking about a specific people breaking their word and attacking his followers. He is talking about idolaters of Makkah. Verses 9.1 to 9.14:



For a better explanation:


Or 8.67, how about actually reading passages 8.65-8.75:


8:67 – This verse refers just after the battle of Badr (624 AD). The injunction in this verse states that no one could be made prisoner unless there was war. So when one becomes the victor, this is the only time Muslims were allowed to take soldiers captive. The Prophet (p), throughout Islamic scripture never beheaded any prisoner. In fact, he released most of them (Asad, Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas, Tafsir Ibn Kathir [1], and Maulana Muhammed Ali).

Or for the explanation of the passage.


I could continue with pretty much every quote you used, but you get the picture. You are cherry picking certain lines then pretending they represent all 6,236 verses of the Quran, ignoring all the verses before or after promoting mercy.

You can do the same thing about Judaism and come out erroneously believing that all Jewish people are evil, I'm sure you're all familiar with some of the ridiculous things The Old Testament says if you took it literally (killing for the silliest of offenses, cutting off hands of adulterers, etc).

How about the Talmud (The oral version of the Torah):

- "Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell." Erubin 21b.
- "If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” Sanhedrin 58b
- “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” Baba Mezia 24a
- “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” Sanhedrin 57a
- “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” Yebamoth 98a
- “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b
- “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” Soferim 15

I could go on and on and on, but I think you get the point. It's silly because these quotes represent Judaism as little as yours do about the Quran. You could also easily cherry pick horrible bible quotes when taken literally. It's all about what the reader of the religious text takes away from it. It's why you can use the Bible to promote missionary work or evils like the Crusades. Why you can have leader

Unlike you I am using muslim scholar's interpretations of the Qur'an, you are using someone raised in The West to interpret the Qur'an which is why his interpretations make everything sound much more palatable for our western hearts than it actuaally is. I encourage you to read Al-Tabari's biography of Muhammad if you really want to figure islam out. Still, you failed to explain how the hadiths about Muhammad ordering the extermination of a town of 800 people work with your peaceful view of Muhammad.

Even when christians were being prosecuted Jesus never said to fight the romans and kill them until they "did a pact" in which romans repented and did the christian prayers and paid him some hard cash. At least we can agree that Muhammad's morality is fundamentally different because neither Jesus nor Moses nor Buddha cut the feet and the hands of anyone, raped a 9 year old girl, or ordered to kill a senile woman by tying her feet to camels and riding them in opposite directions until she was split in half. We can at least agree on that.

Just to address one of the points in your posts.. when they say "fight the disbelievers until they repent and do the muslim prayers and give zakat" those things: muslim prayer and zakat mean that they have converted! that is what "repenting" means in that verse. So literally: fight them until they repent and convert.

Edit: regarding judaism, the texts are often disgusting, violent, barbaric, and I would never defend them. Jewish morality has nothing to do with christian values. Which is something I already explained in page 1 on this thread, that just as judaism has fundamental differences with christianity, islam does too. But there are three main differences between judaism and islam, the first is that the violent passages within the bible are seen as the history of the jewish people and not a guide to how jews should act today. Muhammad since his life is the fountain of morality is to be emulated by muslims today. The second difference is judaism has no proselytism, converting into judaism is actually discouraged so no jew will kill anyone else for not converting to judaism. The second one is that judaism had the Haskala movement in the 12th century which reformed the faith into an interior spiritual practice similar to what protestantism did with catholicism. Islam hasn't had a similar movement at its core and has been practiced the same way since the 7th Century since any innovation within islam (called bidsah) is strictly forbidden. I was saving this for a future post when I will touch on the practices of muslims today, but enjoy the spoiler.
 
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Unlike you I am using muslim scholar's interpretations of the Qur'an, you are using someone raised in The West to interpret the Qur'an which is why his interpretations make everything sound much more palatable than it is. Still, please explain to me how the hadiths about exterminating a town of 800 people work with your peaceful view of Muhammad.

Even when christians were being prosecuted Jesus never said to fight them and kill them until they "did a pact", repented and did the christian prayers and paid him some hard cash. At least we can agree that Muhammad's morality is fundamentally different because neither Jesus nor Moses nor Buddha cut the feet and the hands of anyone, raped a 9 year old girl, or ordered to kill a senile woman by tying her feet to camels and riding them in opposite directions until she was split in half. We can at least agree on that.

Just to address one of the points in your posts.. when they say "fight the disbelievers until they repent and do the muslim prayers and give zakat" those things: muslim prayer and zakat mean that they have converted! that is what "repenting" means in that verse.
Why do I have to appeal to authority when I can read those verses myself and see clearly their meaning?

"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah.Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]."

Most of the punishments in the bible are just to straight up murder (for example if you cursing a parent, adultery, having sex before marriage) but here's a crime worthy of hands being cut off:
"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, 12then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity" - 25:11 deuteronomy

Okay, Muhammad married a nine year old. How about the age of consent in the bible, well that would be puberty. 10-11 years old for girls, I guess it's a whole year better. Times were different back then, I'm not excusing it, but you're putting modern sensibilities onto the lives of people 1400 years ago. Hell, Mary was pregnant at the age of 11.
"Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. 8 " 'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love" Ezekiel 16

Let's not even get into this weird quote from the talmud about three year olds, i'm assuming this is a matter of context, but it's plainly written here (http://www.halakhah.com/rst/nashim/24c - Yevomos - 41a-63b.pdf):
"A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest,13 for it is said, But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves,14 and Phinehas15 surely was with them. And the Rabbis?16 — [These were kept alive] as bondmen and bondwomen.17 If so,18 a proselyte whose age is three years and one day19 should also be permitted! — [The prohibition is to be explained] in accordance with R. Huna. For R. Huna pointed out a contradiction: It is written, Kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him,20 but if she hath not known, save her alive; from this it may be inferred that children are to be kept alive whether they have known or have not known [a man]; and, on the other hand, it is also written, But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves,14 but do not spare them if they have known. Consequently21 it must be said that Scripture speaks of one who is fit22 for cohabitation.23" - Yebamoth 60b

It is interesting that the way you describe it as "using someone raised in The West to interpret the Qur'an which is why his interpretations make everything sound much more palatable". In other words, it can be interpreted peacefully or brutally depending on the reader. Thanks for making my point for me.
 
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I think the difference is.. where I might relate more to a barely Muslim neighbor since I'm like a 2% Catholic...than a loony christian that comes up to you giving you materials in the park.. which ones are those? 7th Day Adventists? Something like that...
Middle of the road christians will condemn the (significantly rarer) acts of terrorism in the name of it.
Whereas middle of the road Muslims do not necessarily condemn ISIS or Al Qaeda or whichever group of the week. There are many who will say they are closer to the extremists than non Muslims... and that is something most of us do not relate to.

I honestly forget where or what I've heard about that (it's been a long time since I've gotten into this stuff) But there are accounts of this kind of belief system by former practicing Muslims.

Even if Christianity is dominant in America, there is still total religious freedom. There are Muslim countries where that simply is not true. I think Somalia, for example, is the one where everyone lies? There are supposedly many Christians but only like 1000 reported because they don't want to be exposed(killed)
 
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Ah I wish I had the strength to stay away from this thread. I'm sure I'm going to regret engaging in this conversation later. Alas, I am bad at not letting the internet get my goat.

Yes there are Muslim countries that are fucked up. Yes shit can can get very misogynist. Yes extremism is a major problem and yes there are Muslim people who are sympathetic and supportive of extremist regimes and violence even if they themselves are not connected to fundamentalist groups. There are 1.5 BILLION Muslim people in the world, who come from different cultures and different countries, all with varied histories of colonialism and war. It is ridiculous to think that some Muslim people wouldn't be totally be pissed at the many governments and countries who have been fucking their shit up. I do not think that means we should defend ISIS or the Islamic State, but I do think it make sense that decades of complex political, cultural and religious issues would make for a very fucking messed up region. Blaming Muslims or any large group of people, including America, does nothing to shed any light on why things are the way they are in the state of the Middle East, or the war in Syria, or the Arab Spring, or the fucked up aftermath. The history of Colonialism in the Middle East is more relevant to the current violence and refugee crisis in the region than Islamic texts.

Out of the over a billion people who are Muslim in the world, most of them do not relate to extremists or fundamentalists. And they think things are as fucked up as we do. They do not relate to the fucked up parts of Islam just as there are many Christians who do not relate to the fucked parts of Christianity. There are millions of Muslim people who are scared by how much power the fundamentalist Islamic groups are gaining. Instead of adding to the useless conversation about all the bad ideas in Islam, or that there are so many Muslims who are sympathetic to extremists, why not seek out the MILLIONS of Muslims who do not want anything to do with fundamentalism or it toxic ideas and see what they have to say? Instead of condemning their religion, how about talking about what people are doing in their communities to raise awareness?

I also want to ask why do people who are Muslim have to go out of their way to show they are not fundamentalist and in fact condemn it? When you meet someone who is Christian, what kind of assumptions do you make about their attitudes towards fundamentalism? Do they need to go out of their way to make you feel comfortable that they are not like that? Placing this burden on Muslim people is fucked up. But I think probably me asking these questions will fall flat for people who are talking about Muslims the way they have been in this thread.

I was watching an old segment on The Young Turks and Cenk Uygur made such a beautiful point about how we should be bombing countries with education not bombs. And not Western education, just math and reading and regular old education because that is the shit that leads to understanding and insight into being sympathetic to the cause against extremism. Arundhati Roy put it this way, "coercing a woman out of a burka is as bad as coercing her into one." And so my point is that all this negative nasty ass shit talk about Islam and Muslim people is extremely counterproductive and does nothing to add to the conversation about understanding the rise of fundamentalists or how to engage with people. It is quite the opposite, I think this thread is a demonstration of how the hate between people perpetuates itself.
 
I'm not sure what the problem is. There are muslims that are not extremists but also do not condemn terrorism and ISIS. There are muslims who admit to this. Maybe I should have been more clear. I can't exactly tell you about personal experiences and have you believe me, but I do not remember the books I have seen it in addition.
It's been a topic of interest for about 15 years or so. And I also live among a large Muslim population. I'm not exactly afraid of it. No one is putting the burden of Muslims to prove to me they condemn ISIS I am saying there are American Muslims who have flat out said they don't see them as that bad, as the rest of us see them, without provocation. There are American Muslims who did not think 9/11 was that bad. I've heard it with my own two ears and people I know that have dated Muslims have heard it. This is reality. I also know people who do not feel this way, no friend of mine would say it to my face, but I'm curious as to how there can be anybody who willing live here who does.

Of course out of a billion people, I don't think it's all of them. I've said that like 10 times already. But I do believe it's more than some people pretend it is.

There is no current equivalent in other religions and I'm not sure why. It's interesting to learn the differences of religions. I'm sorry if I'm not very sensitive about religion with my tits out out over here. It seems a bit unnecessary. But it's not a topic I'm too ignorant on despite my wording.

This is not exactly church/mosque/temple.
Nobody is saying "nasty things about muslims". People are talking about things. Like adults.

I think the most offensive I thing I've personally said is Loony 7th day adventists... but I'm not even sure if that's the right religion... I know they come up to me and tell me to profess Jesus as the son of God lord and savior and I'm like chillll.

You want to change the direction of the topic go right ahead, No one's stopping you.
 
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I agree that there are Muslim people who do not think 9/11 was bad, I don't know how many, maybe there are more than people think. I think it has more to do with politics, culture and especially colonialism, than religion itself. Several people have brought this up but as I lurk on this thread there continues to be a lot of generalizng about Islam and this bothers me. I would love a chill pill for this cause it totally gets under my skin. My mom grew up in the Middle East, I have an ex bf who is Muslim, I have friends from elementary and high school who are from Syria and Pakistan. You have experiences with Muslim people, I have experiences with Muslim people. I am not calling yours into question at all. I am not offended if you are not being sensitive, I didn't even really think about it. I don't think I'm being all that sensitive either. I think it is easy to have a knee jerk reaction and want to defend Islam, but it is also sooo easy to generalize and some of what is being said certainly comes across as some "negative nasty ass shit talk", just to clarify.

I also agree that people are talking like adults, sometimes adults shit talk. I am not so naive to expect that there won't be people who will disagree with me on if people are shit talking Islam or not. That's cool. No need for pills on that one.
 
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Unlike you I am using muslim scholar's interpretations of the Qur'an, you are using someone raised in The West to interpret the Qur'an which is why his interpretations make everything sound much more palatable for our western hearts than it actuaally is.

Fun fact but some former Muslim's can be intensely biased against their former religion in the same way former Christian's can! That's actually a big thing among christian groups, holding up these Muslim's that hate their former religion (or were never legitimately Muslims) and have them talk about these individual verses that, taken out of context, prove what Islamaphobes are trying to claim as fact. Just because he WAS a Muslim and a scholar does not mean that his interpretation of the Qur'an is the end all, be all of interpretations. It's just one that fits your narrative.

Whereas middle of the road Muslims do not necessarily condemn ISIS or Al Qaeda or whichever group of the week. There are many who will say they are closer to the extremists than non Muslims... and that is something most of us do not relate to.
Perhaps this is because the behavior of many non-Muslims makes them feel as if they are hated and feared just by being the same religion as those committing violence. So of course they would be closer to the extremists who are doing evil things but don't hate them than they would be to people who openly hate them.
 
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But it's not a topic I'm *NOT* too ignorant on despite my wording.

jesus I left out the *not*
I take back no chill pills. I'm giving out more chill pills lately I like them.

Perhaps this is because the behavior of many non-Muslims makes them feel as if they are hated and feared just by being the same religion as those committing violence. So of course they would be closer to the extremists who are doing evil things but don't hate them than they would be to people who openly hate them.

I do not necessarily believe this. I do not see christian little girls holding up a sign inducing as much fear, or expresses as much hate as ISIS beheading christians. I do not see the same level of hate. America might have jerks here and there but it is not religiously oppressive.
 
jesus I left out the *not*
I take back no chill pills. I'm giving out more chill pills lately I like them.

That is ok. I am on board with this even lol :)

I do not necessarily believe this. I do not see christian little girls holding up a sign inducing as much fear, or expresses as much hate as ISIS beheading christians. I do not see the same level of hate. America might have jerks here and there but it is not religiously oppressive.

I gotta say, there are hate crimes against Muslim people where they have been shot dead for being Muslim and not for being fundamentalists, just for being regular Muslim peeps, like pretty recently. Sorry but this happens in the US and Canada. But I don't even think the hate crimes are the main reason, I think it is the hateful sentiment. You hate me, I hate you. It doesn't really matter who is worse. But the shit that people say is vitriolic so I think it can be quite oppressive for Muslim people. Anyway, the point is more that the hateful sentiment and fearfulness is what makes people hate back. It's a lovely circle of hate.
 
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Anyway, the point is more that the hateful sentiment and fearfulness is what makes people hate back. It's a lovely circle of hate.
Succinct
Oh ffs I just got your other post.
@justjoinedtopost
Here's ABC coverage of todays attack.. feel better about it? Is it more believable this time? It was top story on CNN earlier as well but has already been bumped (shocker)
http://abcnews.go.com/International/american-university-attacked-kabul-afghanistan/story?id=41618784
I read, and believed it, the first time. I was just completely nonplussed.
Your comparisons are invalid. And I stand by my statements. The likelihood is slim to be stoned in America for being a webcam model. Here's the difference and beauty of America... you can go up to those people protesting Islam in your town and talk to them if you'd like... and have an actual concern about it, instead of posting the pictures on the internet.
Maybe my comparisons are invalid. Maybe the odds of where you are currently more likely to get stoned for being a webcam model (and a quite lovely one I might add) is all that matters.

I do not believe for a minute that Islam is peace. Nor do I believe Christianity is. I think they are both reliant upon an open embrace of ignorance and delusion. I believe they can both be used to organize people for good. More often, for war.

I didn't post those pictures btw, they were posted on the anti-Islamic website I linked. And no, I wasn't going to go up to them, for the same reasons I wouldn't go try to voice my concerns to white supremacists at a KKK rally. They are Islamophobes. They are indoctrinated zealots who have temporarily lost their capacity for reason. They get all worked up about their culture, their country and its service, and the threats they perceive to it, and then if we are lucky, they get it out of their system by making fools of themselves with a silly protest. And if we are not lucky, then...
 
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I do not necessarily believe this. I do not see christian little girls holding up a sign inducing as much fear, or expresses as much hate as ISIS beheading christians. I do not see the same level of hate. America might have jerks here and there but it is not religiously oppressive.

I politely disagree. Maybe you live in some lovely place where opressive things don't happen but that's not everywhere. In my hometown this summer guys beat the crap out of a middle eastern (coincidentally not Muslim guy) at a gas station. The beating was caught on camera and you can hear them yelling anti-Muslim slurs as they kicked and beat him. Entirely unprovoked, this college student was just putting gas in his car and they jumped him. Also in my hometown someone discovered a local Mediterranean restaurant was owned by a Muslim and left an enraged Yelp review stating they'd never return and were sickened that they gave money to a terrorist and tried to start a movement of "*Locationers* against *Restaurant*" because we shouldn't have "terrorist scum" owning businesses in our town.
 
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I politely disagree. Maybe you live in some lovely place where opressive things don't happen but that's not everywhere. In my hometown this summer guys beat the crap out of a middle eastern (coincidentally not Muslim guy) at a gas station. The beating was caught on camera and you can hear them yelling anti-Muslim slurs as they kicked and beat him. Entirely unprovoked, this college student was just putting gas in his car and they jumped him. Also in my hometown someone discovered a local Mediterranean restaurant was owned by a Muslim and left an enraged Yelp review stating they'd never return and were sickened that they gave money to a terrorist and tried to start a movement of "*Locationers* against *Restaurant*" because we shouldn't have "terrorist scum" owning businesses in our town.


This is getting off topic... but I do not view these things(while terrible) in the same way... and in some ways... culturally inevitable. Here me out.
I do not come from sunshine and rainbow magic places, quite the opposite. But the places I do come from have EXTREME cultural diversity and what some would consider gang violence or "hate crimes" that know no limit of race/ethnicity/religion.

I view these places as mini miracles, including America as a whole, for these incidents while being terrible, are for the most part limited. There are places in america where white europeans violently fight with other white europeans or groups of black americans fight with other black americans or groups of any kind of anything fight with any kind of anything different. So, not in a cold way, I view this as somewhat unavoidable, and different to State oppression. Or oppressive countries. But this is another can of worms.
 
Refugees have taken control of a small town in Germany called Garmisch-Partenkirchen, a letter from the mayor to Bavarian authorities was leaked today and in the letter she explains how the refugees took over the refugee center are engaging in vandalism, brawls, and sexual attacks to the women of that town and is asking for help and resources to contain it.

The German mayor has begged for intervention over the 'explosive situation' caused by a refugee crimewave in the picturesque ski town.

Police say refugees brawl in the streets and vandalise public property in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, and residents allege they are responsible for serious sexual assaults.

Dr Sigrid Meierhofer has now written about the 'massive problems' in a letter begging for help from Bavarian politician Maria Els, which was leaked to the press.

The mayor, from the centre-left SPD party, says she will need to take action 'to secure public safety and order' after a series of public clashes with police.

The Abrams centre, a former US Army site that now houses around 250 asylum seekers, is also affecting tourism and the health of residents, she claims.

'There has been an increasingly worsening situation in recent weeks around the registration centre Abrams,' wrote the mayor, in what was seen as a cry for help.

In the previous year it was mostly occupied by Syrian families but now, around 150 of the residents are Africans, 80 per cent of them unaccompanied young men.

Mayor Meierhofer makes it plain that the current occupiers of the building have become 'problematic' and said she is increasingly concerned about 'public order'.

Curfews on migrants entering certain areas, like the spa park in town, have been implemented in the past few weeks.

Police officers have responded to more incidents in the past six weeks in and around the centre than in the past 12 months put together.

Deputy police chief Thomas Holzer recently said: 'The blacks are in charge,' as he described the constant clashes with asylum seekers at the centre.

He went on: 'There are brawls, fights and property damage. The blacks occupy the best wi-fi places, choose who sleeps in what room.

'The situtation is a problem for us and causes some concern. In September, we recorded a quarter of our annual operations.'

Repeat offenders at the centre have been moved to some of the other 11 facilities in the area, but the problems persist.

Local social media speaks gravely of sexual assaults of the worst kind taking place in the accommodation centre, but Holzer said he cannot confirm this.

Frau Meierhofer explained in her letter that the complaints from locals were accumulating and that they were not from the far-right or other extremist groups.

She writes: 'They are expressing their trials and tribulations to us. Massive problems with refugees in Garmisch-Partenkirchen,' according to the local Merkur newspaper.

A local official was outraged that the letter, and the deputy police chief, identified black Africans for causing the trouble, saying 'stereotyping' was unacceptable.

But the mayor's office insisted she was telling it like it is, not as bureaucrats elsewhere would like it to be.

Sauce: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kle-explosive-refugee-crime-wave.html?0p19G=c

German authorities keep saying this is an isolated case, but people know this is happening all across Europe.

This is what the town looked like up until the refugee crisis began:

 
Here's the best overview I've seen yet of what's been going on in Europe (skip to 3:11 if you find the opening slow):



Make no mistake: This is exactly what the globalists and "progressivists" want for America, too, and this election represents more of a decision point in terms of your country's future than I think the average American realizes.

looks like an army...now all they just need is to mobilize themselves get stuff...omg this is soooooo stuuupiiidddddd (of europe i mean)
I agree, it is stupid. Almost sounds like you two aren't in favor of war. A great big progressive hug to the both of you...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_–_Iraq#List_of_countries_in_the_coalition
I have no sympathy for any country on this list that is dealing with an immigration crisis. That goes double for any people who are simplistic enough to believe the problem is Islamic, or Arabic, or racial.

This is not a new game that is being played.
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While I agree a foreign policy based on meddling in other countries' affairs is unwise, the migrant crisis in Europe is not something that just happened. It has been engineered, executed and defended by Europe's own political leaders—most obviously by Angela Merkel, but politicians across the whole continent have spoken proudly of the "need" to import migrants en masse into their country and to simply accept the cultural dilution, social decay and outright violence that have been the result.

And I am very skeptical that most of these migrants are actually war refugees. Many have noted the vast majority of them appear to be young, healthy men—if they're fleeing a war zone, why have the women and children been left behind? If the cond
itions they're leaving are so unconscionable, why in the video do we see them complaining about the food, water and shelter they've been handed on arrival? If you'd just escaped a horrifying death at the hands of guerillas, would your immediate concern be whether or not your fruit juice has too much sugar?

The migrant crisis is something that has been forced on Europe, not something that developed on its own.
Within the confines of a discussion about electing a US president, I really don't give a shit. Is there an engineered European immigration crisis? Not my problem. I wish them luck with it, tell 'em to grow a beard; I've heard it helps you fit in.

Some of what you said here sounds like easily debunked conspiratorial horse shit, and some of it sounds true. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that this is an engineered crisis. Wouldn't be the first time it has happened. But to hint that war is not a huge part of the equation is ludicrous. It might be wise to seek out the corporations that profit from such things and invest in them. I mean, if the world is going to hell around us, there is no reason we can't all face our deaths with a nice portfolio.
Only a fool would believe it could never be done to America as well.
I wish this would happen in the US. I would like to see the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, Trumps, every rank and file member of Congress who ever pushed the fear agenda, every pundit and religous leader who has built a career on this, every corporate officer who profited from it...stripped of all but just enough wealth to remain in the bottom of the middle class. Use the proceeds to put the immigrants up, let them live like kings.

I'd like to see the same thing happen in Israel and Saudi Arabia. How much of this clever sales pitch is true, and how much is bullshit?
http://www.internationalman.com/art...fugee-crisis-you-wont-hear-about-in-the-media

To illustrate with an example I'm familiar with, during Canada's federal election last year candidates from our major political parties took different positions on the precise number of Syrian "refugees" that should be imported: 10,000, 25,000, 40,000 or 46,000. No candidate asked the question, "Should we be importing any of these people at all?" How will we know whom, exactly, has entered our country? What will be the effect on our culture? On our economy? On our safety? These questions have never been addressed by any of our politicians.
How do you feel about this side of the discussion?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/04/cana-o04.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...in_the_evershifting_war_on_terror_walkom.html
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/the-war-on-terror-10-years-on/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ort-controls-opponents-argue/article29769283/
Nationalism is great. If all the immigrants would just stay home (including the ones deployed by military/intelligence agencies), I think it would be better for all.

How much of this is true, and how much of it is bullshit?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsoVyl-OQ0vFzvne5MBec_g/feed

Please don't respond. This is a time of war, and they are watching every word written here. It's a disaster, a total disaster...
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Funny how progressives always pin the mess that the Middle East is on The Jew.

Israel is 1 country. The Middle East are 22. In every single one of those countries there is war, turmoil, terror, and horrible violence. Do you really think Israel or the UK is to blame for it?
Ignoring the fact that "The Jew" and Israel are two different things, I agree that it is silly to say the M.E. mess is all the fault of Israel. Equally absurd to say Israel isn't a huge part of the problem.

Counting the number of countries is a poor way to assess the situation. I suspect you know that.

edit: There are 17 countries in the Middle East according to Wikipedia, and Israel is one of those.
22 is the number of countries considered to be part of the Arab world.
 
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This is all bullshit created by the bankers. Do your research. The real things are the massive rapes in Europe. In Germany apparently men who saved women from rape got arrested.
 
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