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BitCoin/Ethereum

Discussion in 'Random Chat' started by Ryuki22, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Ryuki22

    Cam Model

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    Hey just dipping my toes into cyrpos.. wondering if anyone else here is interested in these?
     
  2. ForceTen

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    Given all the issues with security of computer systems, hacks, etc. I'm a little skeptical of it. It's probably costing me money by not doing it. But, given there's many different types of crypto currency, and it's still kind of a blackbox when it comes to financial worth on the backend, I'm still holding out a bit.
     
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  3. Ryuki22

    Cam Model

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    fuck it, yolo. if you can afford some volatility giver.
     
  4. MDouble00

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    I'm currently in the research phase. I'm having a hard time getting comfortable with putting any money into it. I think if I do test the waters I'm going to treat it primarily how I handle online gambling. Use a small bankroll and kind of see what it does. If it bottoms out I won't be in a panic. And if I score some hits then I can turn some cash.
     
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  5. ForceTen

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    At the moment, I'm working on paying off the rest of my debt before end of the year. I'd rather do that, than gamble losing money in digital currency.
     
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  6. Ryuki22

    Cam Model

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    which is why i said if you can afford volatility go for it, you can not; i respect that.
     
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  7. C_huxstable

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    I have tipped my toes into the crypto currency pool! I can see how some may think it's scary but tbh, everything has risk. Like you said using money you can afford to lose, for me was xx. I haven't lost yet. :whew:
     
  8. Ryuki22

    Cam Model

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    Cant afford* sorry I've had some dranks.
     
  9. venomous

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    Typically, the time to invest isn't when prices have soared and everybody knows about it. A lot of people who invested in 2010-2011 have already sold out and made a killing.

    You're looking to maximize your return, which means buying low, selling high.

    Bitcoin saw a pretty major drop in its value in recent weeks, losing up to a third of its value in a 24 hour period.

    There are also a lot of questions over Bitcoin's intrinsic value/lack thereof, leading many to refer to the cryotocurrency as a " speculative bubble." There are also concerns over its legality, the effects of recent FCC rulings, and its usage to purchase drugs and child pornography.

    Regardless, Bitcoin most definitely has at least a few more drops and surges ahead of it-- given its volatility, I don't think Bitcoin would make a cogent long-term investment.

    However, if you do the proper research and analysis, watch the values, you could potentially make some money in day/swing trading-- either way, I recommend seeking professional advice.
     
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  10. bud9752

    V.I.P. Member

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    sounds like a Ponzi scheme with AIR money , when the winds blows there goes your investment
     
  11. MDouble00

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    @venomous kind of why I'm still researching and learning more about many of the altcoins. I think the Bitcoin bubble is too high, but catching one of the others on the early floor levels is interesting.
     
  12. ForceTen

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    Yeah, I just look at it as paying off debt more important than investing in cryptocurrency. I could afford to divert some to it, and take a risk. But, having no debt and banking the rest with more freedom to invest is the higher priority. Debt = indentured servitude
     
  13. venomous

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    Just understand that the market is complex, so you have to do a lot of research. What made Bitcoin so successful? Can those circumstances be duplicated, and if so, who has the biggest chance of doing that?

    There are a lot of different names popping up, and a large percentage of them are sure to fail. Getting in on both the winning horse AND one that everyone isn't betting on already/hasn't had its value soar beyond your means is tricky.

    Usually, that requires being very attuned to the motions of the market, or hiring someone who is. Either way, you'll need a strong stomach, especially if you're investing a substantial amount.
     
  14. HiGirlsRHot

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    I don't disagree with what you said. But I had laugh at seeking professional advice. Where the hell do you find professional advice on bitcoin? Any traditional financial advisor will tel you to stay away from Bitcoin except for your gambling account, and the rare honest ones will tell you that couldn't tell you the difference between SHA256 hash function, a block chain, and smart contract if their lives depended on it.

    So for professional advise you are left with this guy. (It is a parody)

     
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  15. venomous

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    I lost it at "scarcity is what makes nothing valuable" xD

    I wasn't saying that the OP should necessarily seek out professional advice to invest in Bitcoin, but BEFORE he did it himself. That way he could get a more comprehensive look at why Bitcoin may or may not be the right choice than we can give, as well as shares his goals in investing and discuss possible alternatives.
     
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  16. HiGirlsRHot

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    Ah got it, that makes sense. Having just seen the video I couldn't help but laugh about the Bitcoin and professional financial advice.
     
  17. Boerman

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    First, my qualifications:
    In the early 1980s I was involved in developing and employing computer based, technical trading systems for trading commodity futures markets. In the mid 80s to early 90s, I was frequently ranked in the top 5 traders in the world by commodity industry tracking publications. I managed money for customers all over the world. My best year, my customers received over 300% gains after paying me. I retired before I was 45 but I returned to trading system research and development in the last 2-3 years. Currently, I am considering a very limited return from retirement to manage a few very small customer accounts. Does that qualify me to predict the future of bitcoin, et al? I'd say absolutely not. But I'd say that I'm more qualified to make an educated guess than the average person because I've seen similar market conditions before. Anybody making predictions on bitcoin right now is only stating opinion with very little evidence to back up their opinion. It's mostly emotion.

    Mature markets trade in identifiable patterns. These patterns can be very useful in predicting future price movement. I use patterns to daytrade the eMini S & P futures every day. But bitcoin is not even close to becoming a mature market. The most encouraging recent development is the advent of futures markets in bitcoin. A futures market brings stability to price movement. Prior to the onset of futures trading, if you thought bitcoin prices were too high and going to go down, the only way you could capitalize on your opinion was to sell bitcoins that you had already bought. That created an upward bias to prices. With futures markets, you can sell a contract of 5 or 10 bitcoins that you will later buy back. That's called going short. If you are right and prices go down, you buy low and you have already sold high, making a profit. If you were wrong and prices continue higher, you end up buying back at a higher price, for a loss. Another stabilizing factor are the so called circuit breakers. If the price moves too far too fast, trading is halted for a period to give the market (traders) a chance to calm down. Prices move too fast because of a lack of orders on one side of the market. A trading halt gives traders a chance to consider whether the move is justified and place orders accordingly.

    Is this a bubble? Most certainly. How can you tell? When you started hearing prices quoted everywhere, it began to be a bubble. People began talking about it everywhere. That has the same effect as ringing the dinner bell for Pavlov's dog. A lot of people have this fear of missing out. Every time they hear about it, they are wishing they had gotten in. Eventually they just got to have it and take the plunge. These are the people we call the weak hands. They are folks who really can't afford to lose. And they are the first to panic and sell out if prices go against them. Their panic selling creates a snowball effect, scaring people who got in at a little better price than them or who can afford loss a little better. Right now this an emotional market. It goes up on emotional buying and it goes down on emotional selling. Generally, when it goes down, it will go down faster than it goes up.

    The fact that there's a bubble doesn't mean that it can't/won't go up a lot more. What it means is that there's a lot more risk and volatility. But there's a lot more potential, too. If you are one of those people who can't stand to miss out, the first thing you need to do is determine how much you could lose without it affecting your lifestyle. Then kiss that money goodbye like you spent it on fireworks on the 4th of July. You had a good time, but now its gone. Then you need an exit strategy. If you want to let it ride, then do that, but still consider it gone. Or maybe there is some point where you want to liquidate half. Now you are playing with free money and you can buy a pullback. Then you'll have more bitcoins than you originally had. But the total value might be lower. No matter what, don't risk money that you need for day to day life.

    Sorry folks, but its after 2:30am and I'm getting a little fuzzy in the head. I have other thoughts on bitcoin but they will have to wait for tomorrow.
     
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  18. NaFlix

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    We are doing since 2016.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. ForceTen

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    How much have you mined vs total expenses of hardware/software and power?
     
  20. Naomi_R94

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    I did a lot of research and invested some $ into Bitcoin and then bought a few other cryptocurrencies with my Bitcoin (Ethereum, Verge, BNB). I am testing the waters. Right after i bought my Bitcoin the market crashed and I would've been pretty wonky if I had invested too much. It has gone back up since then. Now I am focusing on diversifying my portfolio without having to put more money in.
    Watch lots of Youtube videos.
    Conceptually, I can see non fiat, decentralized, digital currencies using blockchain technologies to be important for the future and especially in the camming and sex work industries!!!
    Wouldn't it be great if we could get our tokens/payments instantly instead of through bank wires/transfers or with less fees attached? Wouldn't it be great if these transactions were anonymous and more secure for both the client and the performer? The camming sites would have to redevelop their fees systems for this of course, so like banks, I could see why they would be worries/skeptical.
     
  21. Boerman

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    Bitcoin, et al, will remain a speculative bubble so long as the price remains so volatile. Its ultimate success depends on wide acceptance as a medium of exchange for goods and services. That will never happen as long as the price continues to swing as much as 20% practically every day. The relatively few businesses that accept bitcoin are speculating. That's fine, I wish them well. But most companies are not there to speculate. They are there to produce and/or sell a product or service. They need to be able to predict their future costs and future income with reasonable accuracy so they can make financial commitments weeks and months in advance. Right now, you can't accurately predict the value of bitcoin ten minutes from now. Few businesses have sufficient profit margin to be able to accept unstable payment and even fewer have the temperament to do so. For now, the value of bitcoin is determined by a relatively small pool of big speculators and a large number very small speculators. It is definitely not determined by established businesses. Until you can spend it at the places you spend money in every day, it will remain a speculative bubble. And that will not happen until the price stabilizes.
     
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  22. ForceTen

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  23. cammingcouple

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    Unless you keep your money as cash, your money is nothing but a balance in a computer somewhere. Not sure how that's much different. Bank accounts get hacked all the time. The problem is really with the sites that store your crypto wallet (which you don't need to use if you don't want to), not crypto currency itself. If your bank has poor security, that's a flaw with your bank, not with the currency itself. Granted, money in a bank account is insured, but there's really no reason bitcoin wallets can't be insured as well. Again, nothing to do with the currency itself, but rather the systems built to support it.

    The problem with current financial transactions is that you have to give your credit card # or checking account# out to everyone you spend it with. Those same numbers also allow other people to spend your money. With crypto currency, that's not the case. Only the person who posesses the private key is able to spend it. Transactions are signed with the private key and verified through your public key. The private key is a number that is never given out. This actually makes crypto currency much easier to secure than traditional currency.
     
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  24. ForceTen

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    Need to clear a few things up here:

    Financial backing: Bank accounts are insured, currently there is none for cryptocurrency. It's also very difficult to insure something which has 20-30% variances in a short period of time. What's the real value? Yes, USD, etc have swings also. But, it's pretty much universally available and more stable than Cryptocurrency. Crypto is a very special market, and if I want to get out I need to find a buyer with real world currency. So, it still falls back to the current currencies of the world.

    I'm very familiar with private/public keys, so I understand the workings of them. However, what happens if your private key becomes corrupt, lost, or stolen? Believe it or not, key signing is not without its own inherant problems and security risks. Yes, in a CC, you give them the number and they can attempt to make purchases. But, if the date and three digit code are incorrect, they can't do it electronically. So, it's a type of added security measure. With crypto, how do you handle purchases in a store which doesn't accept phone readers? Credit card loaded with cryptocurrency? No different than how credit cards are handled now is it?

    As to bank account numbers, the only time those are given out are to financial institutions for when I'm doing transfers between banks/accounts of my own. Or, direct deposit from my employer. If I pay someone, it's in cash or paypal, google wallet, etc.


    There's still a lot of issues to work out with crypto currencies. But, there's some improvements and I can see it improving our current currencies. But, in the long run, it most likely won't be viable as it will become regulated like all other currencies are due to taxes, etc.
     
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  25. cammingcouple

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    Don't get me wrong, crypto currency isn't very practical as a currency just yet. There's the wild fluctuations of value in addition to ridiculous transaction fees. Crypto certainly has hurdles to overcome to be a useable currency.

    1. As I mentioned, you can insure cryptocurrency in the same way you insure the dollar. It's not a shortcoming of the currency itself. That was kind of the main point of my post. To differentiate what is a shortcoming of the currency itself vs all the systems supporting a currency. Insurance is not inherent in the USD either. It's a problem with currency in general, not just bitcoin. The only difference is it exists for bank accounts and not crypto, but there's no reason it can't. You're most likely correct that it is very difficult to insurce something like crypto that fluctuates so wildly. However, that's probably somewhat moot as crypto isn't really a viable currency until it stabilizes anyway.

    2. Backups. It's nothing more than a long string of letters and numbers. There are countless ways to back it up. You can write down your private key on a piece of paper for all I care. Hell, I just took a screenshot of it with my phone and threw it on google photos. Not that I recommend that, but it wasn't worth much so I didn't really care at the time. Obviously, for any amount of money I suggest a secure/encrypted method. Basically, you treat it like any other piece of data you care about. You back it up. Just like banks back up your account information. Again, no different than current accounts. Do you back up your checking account? You couldn't even if you want to. You depend on the banks for that. I assume the wallet services are backing it (I'd hope). Whoever is storing your wallet is (or should be) backing it up. At least with crypto, you can also back it up yourself.

    It's not really much of an added security measure since the date and CC are typically given together anyway. Even a "credit card" loaded with currency would still be more secure as you're still not giving out the private key. They would need physical possession of it. .

    Sure key signing is inherent with risks as well. However, key signing is used for everything today. Those risks extend to existing financial systems, not just cryptocurrency. Financial electronic transactions are already protected by public key cryptography. If that fails, all of our financial systems are screwed anyway.

    4. As far as the bank account info, unfortunately, that's not the case for everyone. I have at least 2 or 3 payments that automatically withdrawal from my checking account (don't take credit cards). For those, I did have to give out the account info. Ever write a check? All the information needed to make a withdrawal is right on the check! Horribly unsecure.

    You last point, I completely agree with.
     
  26. ForceTen

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    There's definite flaws in both designs, and in some ways, key signing is more secure. However, the primary shortcoming I have is that there is no buffer/protection from the bank in case of compromise, etc. Yes, you're managing it somewhat on your own. But, there's no second check on if it's a fraudulent charge.

    I store keys all the time. But, again, was saying if that is the sole key you have and for whatever reason it get completely destroyed and can't recover it, how do you get it replaced? With a financial institution, you have that ability.

    Again, nothing's perfect. Just pointing out differences though.
     
  27. cammingcouple

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    I'm not disagreeing those are problems. Maybe I'm arguing semantics here, but I don't think it's accurate to point out the problems of a currency vs an entire financial system. Bitcoin is a currency, not an entire financial system (although it does replace some aspects of it). If comparing the flaws of something, it should be compared to it's equivalent. It's kind of like saying, "This engine sucks because it's not as fast as a corvette". Well yeah, it still needs wheels, a chassis, transmission, and well, the rest of the car. However, if you replace the engine in the corvette with this one, it'll be way faster. Same thing here. If you replace the USD with Bitcoin in our current financial system, it may (or may not) be much better. That's the way I evaluate bitcoin rather than trying to compare it to something it's not. Bitcoin is a currency, so it should be compared to the USD (or your currency of choice). The problems you've brought up (which are completely legitimate), are also problems with every other currency out there. They were mitigated by building many financial systems around them, rather than being solved by the currency itself. Pointing out the problems of a currency vs a complete financial system seems to me like an apples to oranges comparison. Our same financial systems in use for the USD could be adapted to handle bitcoin as well and offering all of the same protections. Doing so would solve most of what you brought up. If banks and credit card processors started accepting bitcoin, those problems would be solved.

    Of course, this discussion is probably moot since I don't think that'll ever happen. I'm very skeptical of cryptocurrency ever being accepted and widely used. Nothing to do with technical reasons or anything related to the currency itself though.
     
  28. ForceTen

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    Historical world currencies, typically have a backing to it such as gold, silver, etc. The US, and many other countries used to do that, and are now a fiat currency which is backed by the Gov't. It get really complex quickly. But, in comparison to cryptocurrency, it is much more stable and has something of value behind it. I'm not sure if bitcoin or others have any kind of real financial backing. Especially given its volatility, and its difficulty when it comes to ease of use/access. Again, to me, it is much more of a commodity that's bought/sold and not used to purchase something on a daily basis.

    But, because it is slowly being used to purchase goods, it is also transforming into a currency with a complete financial system that mimics the US and world's markets. I don't think it will replace it, especially since there isn't a type of oversight, protection backed by an entity, etc. Also, the Euro is having issues, due to the disparity between the countries involved. So, will be interesting to see what comes of it all.

    I'm not against innovation, as I think lessons learned could be applied to improve. I just really have difficulties seeing the viability of this long term.
     
  29. cammingcouple

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    I don't really put much weight in a currency being backed by it's own government. There's an excellent chance their fates are tied together. One fails, so does the other. I put that only slightly above saying the US dollar is backed by the US dollar. In that regard, it's pretty much a tie as crypto currency isn't really backed by anything either. What crypto does have going for it is scarcity and the fact that it can't be manipulated by governments (ie, the federal reserve). However, I would also argue that is why it will never succeed. There is simply way to much power in having control over a currency. Our government would not be able to operate in the same fashion it does without being able to print money/control interest rates and money supply. They will likely see it as a huge threat and seek to stop it.

    I think the only real potential situation for crypto currency to be adopted for real use is if a government/currency fails or experiences run away inflation (zimbabwe). Businesses and people will look to a means to keep doing business. If their currency fails or is worthless, they may look to crypto as a solution. Once adopted by one, others may follow. Probably a long shot, but the only realistic chance it has.

    As far as the current situation, since it isn't really viable as a currency at the moment, then what value is it? I can only conclude it's a massive bubble at the moment. Of course, I thought the same thing when it hit $100, let alone when it hit $20,000. I think it will collapse, it's just a matter of how high it goes before it does. I've given up on speculating that one. I remember reading years ago someone saying it will hit $50,000 (it was probably around $30 at the time). I thought that was crazy. Now, not so much. It could hit that in a month easy. Or it could hit $1. Who knows. It's certainly entertaining to watch though.
     

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