Carbon Fiber, Anyone?

[camstory]

OK, so, I have been planing to bicycle cross country for about 5 years, but got serious about it 2 years ago. Originally I had planed to gather interviews with Cam Models & Members/Users along the way. The theme was vaguely going to be Camming, though at the time I had some grandiose ideas of starting an on line camming publication. ( See, https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/what-questions-would-you-ask-a-model.4564/ )

Well, my theme changed about 2 years ago when I realized there was something I had always cared about, and in fact cared about more than Camming, (Hell you say), something I was becoming more concerned about almost daily, the environment. I feel a huge part of our problem in making the change we need to, is connected to independence, or the lack there of, in one way or the other. There is the obvious dependence we have on cheep power, but beyond that there are many facets of our destruction of the natural world, that are at least partly caused by some loss of independence. Not least of which is our lack of independence to decided our own fate any longer. (And, why do we still call it a democracy?)

Thus, The 2015 Making Freedom Count Ride for Independence was born. On the morning of May 31st sometime between 3&6AM My bike, attached trailer, including all my ride parts, and bike tools were stolen. I had upwards of 5 grand invested in the bike alone. I was literally a week away from my departure date, and the replacement cost of just the basics would be many times the <$1500 I had saved for emergency trip $. I had been experimenting with carbon fiber, and the production of a few light weight CF bike parts. I was still very much in the learning stage, and though making quality finished CF parts is not easy, I liked it, and found it triggered a good deal of creativity in me. I was finding it hard to fall asleep most nights, for all the ideas of new CF creations that were running through my head. I would make some of these things, and offer them for sale as a means of refinancing my ride. (See, http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=122561 )

Again, only days away from leaving for Vegas, AZ, NM, CO, TX, & LA, even though my sale had limited success, and I was not really ready, maybe the only thing that could stop the trip happened - one of the 3 dogs I care for got sick. I say care for, but for most emotional purposes 2 of the three are my dogs. (Though my room mate is their owner, and as such pays their expenses, most importantly their health insurances.) Frankie, 4 year old Dachshund bonded with me stronger than almost any other dog I've owned, and I've owned a bunch. An emergency vet visit at 3AM, after watching a slight limp turn into a clumsy painful stagger, and then complete paralysis of the rear legs in 4 hours, would cost the deductible plus some. The prognosis was a near 100% permanent loss of rear leg function without an emergency back surgery to remove a ruptured disk in Frankie's back.

Frankie's annual insurances cap of $5000 was reached a little bit past the half way point of the surgery. We have financed what we could of the remainder, plus the 20% co-pay, but were still in trouble.I say we, but Andy has taken care of the majority of the cost, though after my share of the rent, I have put in everything I have. Right now, we have promised the vet money, but can't swing that and next months rent as well.

The trip will wait until the spring of 2016, and I will care for, and rehab Frankie until she is better again, and can be allowed to be a dog once more. I also will spend the time I once spent here and at cam sites, and more recently spent at the bike forum and at cam sites, doing what I can to make money. Mostly I will get busy selling things. We don't have much of anything that is worth much, but we have a lot of stuff.

yea, it takes me a while to get to the point sometimes. Here, are a picture of Frankie, and a few pictures of Bent4 Carbon Fiber Creations, coasters I think. I thought they were cool, and thought if there are any CF fans here, might seem like something nice to purchase. Pm me with questions or likes, make me an offer, CF is not cheep even when you do it yourself, but they're not sold and I need $ so I will consider anything..

Thanks for your time and consideration. Eric.
[GALLERY=media, 1025]20151008_233935[1] by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1022]20151005_084143 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1024]20151005_084251 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1029]Dragcost by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1030]BB 4-1 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1026]20151004_150110 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1028]20151004_150216 (450x600) by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 12:03 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[lovergirl]

I didn't read every word of that,

But wait what? You can not do a long trip on carbon fiber parts???
They are not reliable and break! Much less putting hundreds of miles on them on unpredictable terrain?
No no no no no?

I would not recommend carbon fiber parts to a city slicker, much less someone going on a long trip

 

[camstory]

I didn't read every word of that,

But wait what? You can not do a long trip on carbon fiber parts???
They are not reliable and break! Much less putting hundreds of miles on them on unpredictable terrain?
No no no no no?

I would not recommend carbon fiber parts to a city slicker, much less someone going on a long trip[/QUOTE ]
Actually, I have read two very extensive studies on the durability, and lifespan of carbon fiber, that both found C.F. to be very durable, and without some of the characteristic longevity problems that steel and aluminum have, if used in the right application has a greater lifespan than the equivalent metal part. The one that I had bookmarked, now gives me a 404, not found error. But Google, "durability carbon fiber " and you will see what information there is, is overwhelming positive.

The problem is everybody is competing to have the lightest part, and some of the ppl producing C.F. are being irresponsible, and not doing the needed R&D to know they are selling a safe, reliable part. There only concern is making the part lighter than the other guys, so they use less cloth or lighter weight cloth than what is required structurally.

There is also a lot of ppl who start building door panels, or tail light assembles or license plate frames, and decided they can also hand lay up an engine part, or bike part that needs to be strong. There is a huge difference in building a pretty part, and manufacturing a strong reliable part.

There are different grades of C.F. cloth, and if is handled wrong before it is bound in resin it can be more likely to fail. Also the strength of an $80 a gallon discount resin compared to a quality $140 gallon resin can equate to a 25% difference in strength. All these things, and a bunch more make the production of C.F. more complex than building metal parts, or at least makes for a much great variety of quality of parts. And when C.F. fails, it is always catastrophic, it does not bend or dent, or give any warming as you near the failure point.

There have been a lot of ppl hurt or worse do to the failure of badly built critical carbon fiber parts, but that doesn't mean it is a bad material to build with. It does mean you have to be more careful when picking a carbon fiber parts.

 

[camstory]

I didn't read every word of that,

But wait what? You can not do a long trip on carbon fiber parts???
They are not reliable and break! Much less putting hundreds of miles on them on unpredictable terrain?
No no no no no?

I would not recommend carbon fiber parts to a city slicker, much less someone going on a long trip

Oh, one more thing, i understand not wanting to wade through my relative long post, and your concern, but actually there was nothing in the OP about me using CF parts. Which quickly gets me to my point this time. Don't mean to be a dick, but there is an unwritten rule, you don't get to not read something and then comment on it. It just doesn't work most of the time.

 

[lovergirl]

Wow, well as the only person who is going to comment on your thread,
I think it's clear who the real dick is!

I understand now, you sell carbon fiber parts, and are now angry that I made it clear that not all bicyclists like these parts.

That's why you're being so rude, isn't it? Well, thanks to your rudeness, I'm happy to expand on why what you sell isn't worth buying.
Carbon fiber bicycle parts are fragile, unreliable, and downright dangerous if you are riding and something breaks.
I've seen MANY a CF bike and bike parts fail, haven't you?
And now they're being made by an amateur who frankly doesn't seem that bright? Ouch, scary!

Nobody wants your parts. How's that for being a dick?
Jerk.

 

[lovergirl]

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/

Now I'm a dick.

 

[camstory]

Wow, well as the only person who is going to comment on your thread,
I think it's clear who the real dick is!

I understand now, you sell carbon fiber parts, and are now angry that I made it clear that not all bicyclists like these parts.

That's why you're being so rude, isn't it? Well, thanks to your rudeness, I'm happy to expand on why what you sell isn't worth buying.
Carbon fiber bicycle parts are fragile, unreliable, and downright dangerous if you are riding and something breaks.
I've seen MANY a CF bike and bike parts fail, haven't you?
And now they're being made by an amateur who frankly doesn't seem that bright? Ouch, scary!

Nobody wants your parts. How's that for being a dick?
Jerk.

LMAO, i was never even a little bit mad. Your post didn't upset me in any way. I'm sorry mine came off as rude. That was not my intention. I was simply point out the nonsenseable action of commenting on something you have not read. It just doesn't work, and if it does it's by chance. Think about it, and if you don't see how silly it is, I don't know what to say, except I'm sorry you were so offended by the concept.

 

[camstory]

OK, did you notice that I did not comment on the second part of your butt hurt post, and made no comments on the post with the link? Well, that was because I had to get to the post before 5, and didn't have time to read/explore what I did not comment on. I will do so now because I now have read/explored your posts, and I feel much more confident that I know what you have said. Standing in line at the post office I was guessing what you might have said, and I was thinking of replies I might give. Some of them were so good I almost posted them. It would have been so cool if I guessed right and made a super reply without even knowing what you said. Something like betting keno if the numbers were words, sort of.

First, again let me say I did not wish to insult you, or upset you. Also, I Think maybe you misunderstood my ,"don't mean to be a dick" comment. I was not calling you a dick, i was saying, that i did not to sound dicklly . To have called you a dick would have been a personal attack on you, and besides it not making sense , it is something I avoid. It can be tough, but to for instance suggest someone has a tiny penis, or that they are not that bright, is just bad form.

Now to reply to broken C.F., yes it happens all the time. Almost always the cause is not the fault of the CF, but rather a poorly made part, the wrong application, or mistakes of the user. But I have not yet seen a quality made c.f. part, with a proven track record failed because of defective c.f. It may happen sometimes, but it is made in huge block long multi million dollar ovens by billion dollar corporations who supply ppl in the aerospace industry. The most modern planes both commercial, and military fighters have upwards of 30% CF build. So it is not likely there is much bad CF getting through.

And, the link you posted serves to make that point. I read the first 3. The first guy comments, that he believes he over torqued the part, or installed it beyond it's limits.

The second guy got into a wreck with a k k Kaaar at 35 mph.

And the third guy was going as fast as he could when his bottle of vodka got in the rear wheel.

All 3 had catastrophic failures, that's what happened when a C.F. part fails. But in these linked examples, or the first 3 anyway, there are dramatic reasons why the CF failed, that was not a fault of the CF.

The manufactur of good quality, strong, and reliable C.F. parts, like frames, forks, seat post, bars, wheels, etc should be left to experienced craft ppl, with the proper tools, equipment. And such parts should never be sold before rigorous testing to ensure a safe part. But, that I'd not always the case, it happens sometimes that someone copies a quality part in their shed out back, and that's a scary thing. It happens, but more often the can be found other reasons why a part breaks. Sometimes you have to look closely to find an over tightened clamp, and sometimes it hits you like 3000 pounds at 35 mph.

 

[lovergirl]

I was offended when you called me a dick.

Glad it's over!

 

[SoTxBob]

I was offended when you called me a dick.
Glad it's over!

LG, as an apparent relative newcomer here I'm guessing you don't even know this dood. As i read the comments, it seems he was simply stating the unspoken courtesies of almost any forum thread. If you TL;DR, then why attempt to go after the post since you dont have all the info of the content ?
I think you will also see as time goes by here that on a post a day or 2 old, you being the first to reply doesn't mean you are "the only person who is going to comment on your thread". Some of us come here only a few times a month, if that often.
... and yeah, Camstory is a bit long winded at times and likes to take the scenic routes instead of driving right to the point.

now, lets go find a cold beer somewhere.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Don't mean to be a dick, but there is an unwritten rule, you don't get to not read something and then comment on it. It just doesn't work most of the time.

Wow, well as the only person who is going to comment on your thread,
I think it's clear who the real dick is!

I understand now, you sell carbon fiber parts, and are now angry that I made it clear that not all bicyclists like these parts.

Nobody wants your parts. How's that for being a dick?
Jerk.

I was offended when you called me a dick.

Glad it's over!

Actually it's not over. I just thought I'd point out you didn't bother to read his first post, nor his second. You see, he never called you a dick. That's you misreading it from just glancing over it too quickly. See above, he says "Don't mean to be a dick." He's referring to himself in what he's about to say. Go back and look, the only one calling anyone else a dick is you, followed up by "jerk" as well.

Also he doesn't sell CF parts. You'd know that if you remained civil and just asked him in a reply post instead of going all Hulk Smash right off the bat.

As for Carbon Fiber bikes themselves, I dare you to show me any scientific comparison showing them to have a higher failure rate over aluminum or steel bikes. Do they fail, yes. But so do the other bikes. However, everything I've read actually shows Carbon is the strongest material used in the bike industry (by far, no question about that). In fact if you look at the ultimate yield strength it's higher than titanium, aluminum, and steel used in bikes. So I'm guessing if you do find anything showing failure rate comparisons it will show Carbon Fiber actually fails LESS now over other materials historically used.

Just to get technical here, but depending on the weave used in the carbon fiber, the difference in strength can be in the GPa range compared to measly MPa range for steel. It's way stronger.

Where it does fail most often is at joints and connection points to other materials. Since it and other metals react differently in regards to thermal expansion and shock stresses, that would naturally be a point of fatigue over time. The same as any other machine comprised of two different materials fixed together.

Look at the elastic modulus and fatigue resistance of it compared to other materials.
Carbon fiber Specific elastic Modulus


Carbon Fatigue resistance



The main difference with CF is in recycling. At the current time there's not really a good way to recycle it. Yes you can melt it down and refashion it into 'plastic' like phone cases and other small objects. But it's not economical to do so. Carbon Fiber is made to last, it doesn't break down in UV rays or the elements. Once it's in a landfill it's there to stay. In fact it's actually illegal in EU member states to dump CF in their landfills.

The thing about the website you linked showing all the carbon fiber bikes broken, that's not proof of anything. It simply shows they break. You found a site showing a bunch of picture, yay! Means nothing. So do bikes made up of other materials. A decade ago when aluminum bikes were the mainstay there would have been websites set up showing all those broken bikes. And the same goes for steel.
Here's an example showing all the bike parts of all materials breaking. It's called stress and strain, basic mechanics of materials: happens to everything.

Broken Bike Bits
click on any of those links on that site. Everything fails.

Ironically, given the way carbon fiber can be manufactured to dampen the vibrations of the road much better than steel or aluminum bikes, evidence shows they are much less fatiguing on the human body while riding. Look into the science and engineering of it for yourself, because I think you are completely wrong. Everything I can find on the subject suggests they are stronger and safer.

 

[lovergirl]

carbon fiber suxxxx

 

[JerryBoBerry]

carbon fiber suxxxx

I stand corrected and bow before your superior scientific evidence. It is truly overwhelming.

 

[camstory]

Wow, just stuck my foot back in the water for a second, and got it boiling right off, hahaha.

Good point about the recycling of C.F. Jerry. Something to keep in mind.

 

[AmberCutie]

Lol at this whole thing.

 

[camstory]

By the way, Jerry, here's what I do to recycle my CF when it doesn't work out. I've already sold this bird house, but I have enough mistakes to build at least two more. [GALLERY=media, 1032]20150827_184003 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 7:25 PM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1036]20150827_184019 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 7:25 PM[/GALLERY]

 

[JerryBoBerry]

By the way, Jerry, here's what I do to recycle my CF when it doesn't work out. I've already sold this bird house, but I have enough mistakes to build at least two more. [GALLERY=media, 1032]20150827_184003 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 7:25 PM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 1036]20150827_184019 by camstory posted Oct 9, 2015 at 7:25 PM[/GALLERY]

Can't see the pictures. I think you have that galleries setting set to not allow everyone to view it.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

okay, now we can see the pictures.

 

[camstory]

okay, now we can see the pictures.

Couldn't have done without you Jerry, and I guess I wouldn't have even know about it, though I just realized I missed at least one post from SoTxBob I have to go back and read.

 

[camstory]

Frankie goes to get stitches removed 10:30 marrow AM. Besides the $80 for the appointment, we need to make a payment, - easy pesy,,,, Until rents due, then we're screwed. The carbon fiber isn't sellin like hot cakes, or like anything that's ever sold. So I'm posting a few assets/investments, the first held when gold was at $1700 cuz it would pass $1900,2000, maybe even $2100, but that, I felt was pushing it. Turns out $1800 was pushing it, yea money's not my thing.

14k gold domed omega link necklaces/choker. 8mm wide, and 18", with slide latch type clasp and swing snap/pin safety latch. It weights 56.3 grams, stamped Italy on inside edge of receiver side of clasp. Very pretty piece, and would like to get a bit more than meltdown - I think it's worth more than melt, but then it's only worth what you can get for it, right!
[GALLERY=media, 1055]Omega Domed 14k Necklaces by camstory posted Oct 15, 2015 at 11:48 PM[/GALLERY]

I would rather not do Pay-Pal - don't like the fees, but even if it were a free service, don't like Pp. Only thing that makes sense to me is a third party we can both trust. (I'm pretty sure I just heard all 3 or 4 trusted forum members exhale a collective, Aw Fuck, hope it's not me!) I'm bad at this sort of thing, so I'm open to suggestions.

I will be picturing & posting 7 or 8 Llardro's, and a 30% PbO crystal & sterling Italian decanter (really stand out piece, exquisite.)

I know this is not camstory's online commodities exchange, but I'm living in a capitalist country, and that is the common thread that has got us all here, and the thread was already up right? Of course I will cease and desist if so requested. Even if the gold has to go to the smelter and the Llardros on E-bay, (paying paypal a dime will still suck), they are sort of interesting items, if you happen to have an interest in them.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

@camstory Thought you might find this interesting. It's basically a promotional video of Walmart's new concept for trucking, so it's a bit dry viewing. But the interesting part is they are testing out a semi trailer with walls made out of single 53' long sheets of carbon fiber. Saves thousands of pounds in weight, and it's stronger than traditional material.