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random time travel and causality thought

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Jan 9, 2011
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ok, one line in another thread that i was scanning caught my eye, and its something i've thought about for years. and now i cant get it out of my brain, sooooo ramble time!

the age old time travel question. if you could go back before hitler took power and kill him would you?
normally the question is about the morals of preventing evil, horrible actions with one of your own. ends vs. means. thats not the part im talking about here. i mean if you have thoughts on that, sure throw them in, but its not the point.

the point is... if you did go back and kill hitler before he committed, or caused to be committed atrocities , what would happen? of course major parts of WW2 would be erased, including all the evil he did. but to what end?
you see when he took power it wasnt like he made a military coup of it. he was elected. the reason he was elected was the immense economic and social depression of germany post WW1. the people were dissatisfied, restless and searching for a way to rebuild their nation, their pride, their economy.
most of the main players in the nazi party were still there. most of the ideas were in place. including the aryan ideal. though that one wasnt as widespread or as cruel in its practice.

now, without hitler it is possible that the economy of europe would have gotten even worse post depression. it is certain that here in america it would have taken decades longer for the depression to change. it was the war effort that revitalized our economy for sure.
plus, germany would have remained a stew of resentment and anger for another generation or two.

plus, look at russia of the era. stalin? he was as evil as hitler any day. the only reason russia wasnt a problem for the west til the 50s was because of the war. he was also expansionist in his leanings. it is possible (though unpredictably so) that without hitler it would have been russia sweeping across europe as a conqueror. and let us remember that it was the two front war with the allies that broke the german military.
without russia on one side and britain on the other the war would have been over before america could have even been involved. our country was against becoming involved for the most part... til pearl harbor.

and that is just brushing the surface of how one man and his leadership moved world events. japan was already preparing to move against china before they allied with the axis powers. italy was fully involved in the fascist rule of moussolini.
the world was ready for war in many places, and those wars would have happened at some point without that damned insane austrian paper hanger.

with hitler more or less in charge and driving things ever crazier all the issues and troubles cam to a head in a fairly short span. plus, since he was bat-shit crazy he made many many poor choices that drove germany to failure. if another, saner german leader had started a similar war who knows how it would have turned out?

and im not brushing past the worst of the atrocities of that era. the holocaust, the genocide were the worst example of human evil that the world had known to that point. and to be honest it still stands as the epitome of evil for most people. (despite the fact that it wasnt the last time such things happened... biafra, uganda, etc...)

as horrid, as ugly and painful as those things were, look what happened because of them. israel for one. without the events of that war i doubt the nations of the world in power at the time would have helped that nation come into being. anti-semitism was rife in ALL countries at that time. jews were constant outsiders wherever they were. because they suffered the most some degree of change had to happen in the minds and hearts of the rest of the world. (though we conveniently forgot all the gypsies, gays, blacks and other minorities that were slaughtered and tortured for the most part)
the UN is a direct descendant of the alliances of that era.

because of one man's evil we have a mark on our species that we can all look to and say "never again" we have had nearly 60 years of time in which the majority of the world works together to some extent. yes things like korea and vietnam still happened. the cold war was also a direct result of WW2. the nuclear arms race was too. of course, those things also lead to a newer age with more freedom for the peoples of the old USSR. it led partially to china becoming a player on the world stage rather than remaining closed off unto itself. (with a bit of help from nixon of all people)

so... would i kill hitler if i could?

no way. as bad as things were. as much horror as happened, it could actually have been worse now without that turmoil and evil then. and i have no way of being certain which evils would be unleashed by his death. best case, the depression continued for decades, america falls, europe crumbles into multiple single wars and asia combusts into havok.

worst case? we might not be here at all.without the soviet block and nato having M.A.D. to keep nuclear war from blossoming (no matter how close it came so damn many times) whoever first developed the nukes would have ruled the world, or destroyed it.
 
Hitler's incompetence is what lost Germany the war, so killing him could make things worse for the world.
 
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Or it could just be a fixed point in time. Like on that Twilight Zone episode, where the nanny thought she was killing baby Hitler and replacing him with a new baby...who turned out to be the real Hitler all along. In trying to prevent his ascent to power, she caused it!

tumblr_mny3u4cMim1s5hv2co1_500.gif
 
MemberEd said:
Shaun__ said:
Hitler's incompetence is what lost Germany the war, so killing him could make things worse for the world.


That's a profound oversimplification.

I am not trying to teach a history class, I am commentating in a time travel thread. Please feel free to spend the rest of the night documenting every mistake Germany made in the course of the war if you want to, but do not forget there is a character limit per post. That means you will need to break it up, if you want to be overly complicated.
 
southsamurai said:
ok, one line in another thread that i was scanning caught my eye, and its something i've thought about for years. and now i cant get it out of my brain, sooooo ramble time!

the age old time travel question. if you could go back before hitler took power and kill him would you?
normally the question is about the morals of preventing evil, horrible actions with one of your own. ends vs. means. thats not the part im talking about here. i mean if you have thoughts on that, sure throw them in, but its not the point.

Only quoting you bit by bit because you wrote a lot and I dont miss out on anything.

Its interesting thought, this is a common thought of going back in time and killing Hitler. Its interesting because, we are often taught violence isnt the answer to solving problems, and what are we are thinking of doing is what Hitler effectively did. A lot of people fail to also realise why Hitler did what he did, and they just presume he was MAD. Someone who is mad wouldnt have been as "sucessful" as he was, unless you want to imply the Rest of the World was also mad.

I mean why go back in time..only so far - why not remove the root cause of violence? If I had choice I would go back and perhaps kill the Queen of England to be honest. The amount of pain the English Empire did is still being felt today in the world.

In any case I would prefer to make Hitler happy - so he didnt have the urge to do what he did. A much better solution I feel.

the point is... if you did go back and kill hitler before he committed, or caused to be committed atrocities , what would happen? of course major parts of WW2 would be erased, including all the evil he did. but to what end?
you see when he took power it wasnt like he made a military coup of it. he was elected. the reason he was elected was the immense economic and social depression of germany post WW1. the people were dissatisfied, restless and searching for a way to rebuild their nation, their pride, their economy.

Command & Conquer followed through with that, where Hitler was assasinated. It anticipated a future where there was war between the Soviet Union, USA and the Japanese Empire.
plus, look at russia of the era. stalin? he was as evil as hitler any day. the only reason russia wasnt a problem for the west til the 50s was because of the war. he was also expansionist in his leanings. it is possible (though unpredictably so) that without hitler it would have been russia sweeping across europe as a conqueror. and let us remember that it was the two front war with the allies that broke the german military.
without russia on one side and britain on the other the war would have been over before america could have even been involved. our country was against becoming involved for the most part... til pearl harbor.

Russia was never a problem to any other nation except its surrounding neigbours (Poland for e.g). They were really a backward nation at the time at least compared to Britain, France, Germany and USA prior the war. Economically they were never that great, however they hid that well to the rest of the world. One of the reasons perhaps Stalin did what he did, was perhaps he knew this and wanted to push Russia to become a True Superpower (hence his 5 year plans and what not). This of course led him to commit his atrocities.

THE USA were quite happy to profit from the WAR until Pearl Harbor. Question is - could they have prevented this war? Perhaps, had they intervened at the start. With the economic and military power the USA had, they should have intervened much earlier but they didnt because they looked to profit from the WAR - at the expense of other people lives (sadly this continues to this day). I would say..that it is equally bad that when you have the oppurtinity to help save people lives and you refrain from doing so and instead you profit it. Yes you are not obliged to help..but heck if you are benefiting from it..

There was oppurtinity for Britain to prevent this war too but they allowed certain things to play out. Of course in hindsight its very easy to point out flaws.

israel for one. without the events of that war i doubt the nations of the world in power at the time would have helped that nation come into being. anti-semitism was rife in ALL countries at that time. jews were constant outsiders wherever they were. because they suffered the most some degree of change had to happen in the minds and hearts of the rest of the world. (though we conveniently forgot all the gypsies, gays, blacks and other minorities that were slaughtered and tortured for the most part)
the UN is a direct descendant of the alliances of that era.

i think its big strech to say anti-semitism existed in ALL countries. Perhaps in Europe only, definetly not much in the USA considering the amount of support Israel received from them. They were hardly any jews in Asia. And definetly there was very little anti-semitism in the middle east at the time. As you say the jews werent the only ones that suffered. Pretty much everyone did. Whether the war would have changed that outcome - I dont think so, definetly the war made it easier for the Jews to get hold off Jerusalem away from the Arabs. And the holocaust was used as means of justifying giving them Jerusalem. Yes the Jews needed a place to go and returning to their orignal place where they have lived would have been that place - Germany, Poland etc. You dont see refugees nowaday trying to take over another territory, they either go back or they live as citizens of country that has provided them refuge.

As a result of that lets say Zionist movement, we now have ongoing conflict in the Middle East. This could have been resolved if the Brits had done their job properly.

And the UN has not achieved anything noticeable to date.

because of one man's evil we have a mark on our species that we can all look to and say "never again" we have had nearly 60 years of time in which the majority of the world works together to some extent. yes things like korea and vietnam still happened. the cold war was also a direct result of WW2. the nuclear arms race was too. of course, those things also lead to a newer age with more freedom for the peoples of the old USSR. it led partially to china becoming a player on the world stage rather than remaining closed off unto itself. (with a bit of help from nixon of all people)

WW2 was not the cause of these events. These events were caused by whatever caused WW1 or WW2. Which was emperialism and colonialism. The aftermath of WW2 led to independence of a lot of nations - India and Pakistan were the biggest I think. It was emperialism and colonialism that brewed hate and is causing most of the conflict around the world today.
so... would i kill hitler if i could?

no way. as bad as things were. as much horror as happened, it could actually have been worse now without that turmoil and evil then. and i have no way of being certain which evils would be unleashed by his death. best case, the depression continued for decades, america falls, europe crumbles into multiple single wars and asia combusts into havok.

worst case? we might not be here at all.without the soviet block and nato having M.A.D. to keep nuclear war from blossoming (no matter how close it came so damn many times) whoever first developed the nukes would have ruled the world, or destroyed it.

As I said, we should looking to what cause Hitler and perhaps the german people to support him at the time as th eproblem and not Hitler himself.

Hitler was fantastic leader. Perhaps if did not have the ideals he had and he had more positive outlook, the world could have been a much better place. Maybe intead of killing him we should go back in time and brainwash him with happy thoughts. Because he had immense natural talent for a leader. The negative influences around him should be removed. Alas, the world was not quite like that during his time. Anti-semitism, slavery, colonialism etc = it was a rather bad time.
 
trotskyleon said:
If I had choice I would go back and perhaps kill the Queen of England to be honest.

In any case I would prefer to make Hitler happy...

Kill the Queen of England but make Hitler happy. :think: :think: :think:

That pretty much sums up every single thought I've ever had about you and your mindset. I stopped reading after that sentence. Why did I click to show this post? Why???
 
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Yea, for all those reasons. And yea I think it is hard to think Stalin would not have made a move, hitler just jumped first, but you know Stalin was screaming, cuz hitler did exactly what he had planed to down the line. And yea, hitler for sure lost the war for Germany, Whether or not someone else could have won it, I think depends greatly on the US being involved. It is hard to imagine any way Germany, or the combined axis powers being able to slow US production enough. Short of an invasion of the north american continent there was no way to slow that production. Our defenses were next to nonexistent, but that was because we needed none. The same could be said of Austria. Yes hitler lost the war, but I don't think there was a way for the axis to win. But you start playing with the idea of a longer war in which all of Europe except Russia is controlled by Germany you might be able to see a way, and for sure if Germany had stayed non aggressive and then allied with Russia, that's a whole different ball game.

Bottom line though the reason I would not if I could is because you can't fuck with the time line, - even if you can you shouldn't. (but I think I might feel differently if much of my family had died in the Holocaust.)

But if I was told I had to go back to some point in history and take out some one, I think I would go back much further than hitler, and hopefully the choice I made would prevent hitler from ever happening. I would of course ask for a few years to research it, (whats the urgency I'm time traveling right), but off the top of my head I'm thinking maybe the first pope, or better yet god, could I go back that far? And I don't think I would kill him, that would send the wrong message. I would just overthrow him and supplant myself on his throne, though I would send the throne to the thrift shop because that too would send the wrong message. Then I would start with the first bipedal ape and teach love, and that nothing should ever have more value than love, and that love should be in place of any god, and I would make love a woman, (might be the only existing trait), ask her to run the shop while I was away, and I would be off to Hawaii, Australia, and California, to lead the first generation of sand gypsies and surfers. Yea like that. :-D
 
Hitler was part of a restricted Germany as result of the ramifications in place on Germany after WWI. These ramifications were in put in place by the British Empire.

The ramifications put in place (I forgot the name), were quite dire. No doubt spurred on the germans.

Similar ramifications were put in place across all colonies of the British Empire. Again spurring hate amongst those people.

As far as I am concerned the British Empire spread hate across the world. Hence killing the Queen or abolishin the monarch in England would I believe have resulted in a much better place today and in the past.
 
trotskyleon said:
Hitler was part of a restricted Germany as result of the ramifications in place on Germany after WWI. These ramifications were in put in place by the British Empire.

The ramifications put in place (I forgot the name), were quite dire. No doubt spurred on the germans.

Similar ramifications were put in place across all colonies of the British Empire. Again spurring hate amongst those people.

As far as I am concerned the British Empire spread hate across the world. Hence killing the Queen or abolishin the monarch in England would I believe have resulted in a much better place today and in the past.
Who is this Queen you speak of? Elizabeth II didn't become queen until years after the war.

Elizabeth I perhaps? I suppose one could say she started the empire. While we're at it, let's kill Timur, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Trajan, Ivan the Terrible, Hannibal, all the Vikings, and just for good measure Alfred I and Canute the king of Denmark. Oh, we could go on forever.
 
I think the hope of killing any one person changing history is a false hope. First of all the only thing we should think about killing is/are the ideas and mindset that lead us to discussions of killing anyone. History does not change in any significant way around any one single event. If you want to argue that it does by saying wwii changed and lump millions/billions of events into one, than I get to be equally as broad and say that though it seems things have changed greatly in detail, (and they have), that looking back on the time from the mid 19th century til the present 500 or 1000 years from now things will look very much the same. How the people of our time behaved in general, how the leaders both the winners and losers, and the mindset of our age as a whole, will all be considered very barbaric, and hateful. The way we treat each other has not really changed very much at all. We still are driven by greed, perhaps more now than ever. We still exploit our fellow man for almost anything we need, the powerful control the week or impoverished. And where there is nothing that the powerful need don't count on any one giving a shit if they need help. And I know without any doubt at all that this will be how we are seen a 1000 years from now, because for their to be anyone to look back in a 1000 years we will have to be a much changed ppl or we will be gone. Anything close to what we are now as far as how we treat our fellow brother/sisters and we have no chance.
 
I have to agree, Hitler could have been neutralized in a nonviolent way. Who knows, if someone had bought him a book about birds for his 8th birthday, it could have inspired him to become a great conservationist.
It's hard to imagine how history would have played out with his role changed. Better? Worse? Hard to say.
Perhaps there were once even more terrible versions of our history, and we're now living out the second or third rewrite of it.

A great many authors have penned some interesting stories of alternate history that you may want to check out.
 
Ok guys I am just gonna throw in a quote here if you don't mind. I am fascinated by this conversation and immediately after reading through it I was reminded of this.

We have wasted History like a bunch of drunks shooting dice back in the men's crapper of the local bar.
Charles Bukowski

and hell, I gotta include one more. And that will pretty much sum up my " :twocents-02cents: " on the discussion.

You begin saving the world by saving one man at a time; all else is grandiose romanticism or politics.
Charles Bukowski
 
emptiedglass said:
I have to agree, Hitler could have been neutralized in a nonviolent way. Who knows, if someone had bought him a book about birds for his 8th birthday, it could have inspired him to become a great conservationist.
It's hard to imagine how history would have played out with his role changed. Better? Worse? Hard to say.
Perhaps there were once even more terrible versions of our history, and we're now living out the second or third rewrite of it.

A great many authors have penned some interesting stories of alternate history that you may want to check out.

The episode of Red Dwarf with JFK, that's like one of my all time alternate history stories. I know it's just a brief episode of a comedy TV show, but it's a glimpse at my own country's history from another nation's perspective and how it would affect the world. It's really kinda awesome.
 
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