Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their money

[Evvie]

[Gents and public chat folks: I made this post in the model's only section of the forum. The topic has been on my mind lately, and I wanted to share my thoughts on it. Some ladies pointed out that there could probably be a lot more discussion on the topic if it wasn't all hidden away and stuff, so I am going to cross-post it here.]

I really really enjoy ACF. I like the people here, and I like how we are a diverse group, and I really enjoy seeing people's opinions, even if they differ a lot from my own. Diversity makes us stronger! But there is one topic which I have seen pop up every now and again which I completely disagree with. It is,

"Top models just sit around and do nothing while they make a ton of money."

And I understand this opinion. I really do. As only an average, and definitely not a high earning model, it can be extremely frustrating to work hard for 5 hours, make $200, and then go watch a big-name MFC model make $500 in 30 minutes while she sits at her desk and laughs with members.

She didn't put on a single show. She didn't sell any content. She doesn't even have a room topic for a countdown. She didn't offer flashes or dances for those tips! She sat there and did NOTHING and it's not fair because I just worked for five hours and made chump change compared to her. It's just luck; she's definitely sleeping with some of those guys, they just like her because she manipulates them. She must be leading them on, or she's just hot enough to sit there and hang out while she gets showered with huge tips.

However, in reality, it looks more like this:

Top model joined MFC four years ago. She has never taken a break since she started.
She struggled for months and months to make average money. She spent a lot of time researching the industry and she put a lot of thought, effort and energy in to improving her shows and being a better model.
She spent 7 or 8 hours a day working on her cam career - and on her top 20 months, she may be putting in 12 or more hours a day.
She worked her ass off and started to attract big tippers - regulars that she relies on to survive.
She invested thousands of dollars in to her career through equipment, building a cam space, prizes, props, profiles, and websites; she paid to visit other models for shows, she paid two grand for her sex machine, and $1500 on all her Adobe editing software; she pays for professional photographers and she money to travel to shots, cons, and events to promote herself.
She worked 350 hours last month to rank in the top 10 of Miss MFC.
She has spent 5 hours today texting a big tipper who is attacking her for going to a private show for another member.
In the back of her mind, she is thinking about how she still has $50,000 in student loans to pay back and how her credit is going down the drain. She is tired of having to live in a huge city where her cost of living tops $7k a month, but she can't move away because her life is already built here. She's waiting for her mom or boyfriend to call and ask to borrow money yet again.
She checks her PMs to see another big tipper is telling her to stop being lazy and work harder or else all his tips to get her in to the top 20 will be wasted. She keeps on her smile or else people in her chatroom will immediately attack and accuse her of playing for pity tips.
She's been working for 6 hours - just one last countdown to go. She is fatigued but this is her job, she just wants to have a good time. Members call her a token whore for asking for a high countdown number. "Come on baby, you already make 15k tokens today, give us a free show, it's not like it'll cost you anything..."
When she logs off of cam, daily goal barely reached, emotionally exhausted, harassed by trolls, and completely drained by her 'always on' schedule, she checks twitter to find pages of horrible messages from people who hate her just because she makes good money.
She spends the rest of the night responding to messages and trying to take care of more regulars who all want a piece of her. When she goes to bed, she has a nightmare about her camscore; when she wakes up, she checks her MFC account and her twitter before she even gets out of bed. She responds to e-mails from her regulars during breakfast, has 90 minute to get ready for the day, and then it's on cam again till lunch and then on cam after lunch until bedtime.

The frustrating thing is that people often just plain invalidate the physical, emotional, and mental struggle of hard-working cam models. "Who cares if she logs off crying every day? She makes 3x as much money as me!" On my part, it is especially frustrating to see people (not anyone on ACF) basically say, "meh, who gives a fuck how hard it is? Who gives a fuck how she feels? Bitch still made twenty grand in a month, she can take whatever she's put through for that kind of money." It's a mindset that reduces the model to subhuman status and suggests that a woman who makes money through her sexuality should not be empathized with - perhaps she should even be forced to suffer.

I feel like people who hold this opinion fall in to one of two categories. Either they are just uneducated about what it actually takes and they don't understand the work involved, or they legitimately despise women who can make money through sex and companionship, and feel the need to treat these women like villains. I feel like we don't have any people here who actually don't like sex workers, so that's a pretty good start.

In the interest of education, I want to share some extra thoughts on the matter.

♥ Not all camrooms run on the premise of "tips in = immediate sexual action out". A model who gets a 500 token tip and does not immediately show her breasts or do a dance did not just get 'free' money.
♥ Socialization is not necessarily easier, less tiring, or more fun to do than sex. A model who earns her money through socialization does not necessarily work any less than a model who earns her money doing sexual shows.
♥ Models who are making huge amounts of money spent huge amounts of time getting to where they are now. If it looks like they are getting tons of money for doing nothing, that's repayment for the 30 months they spent selling their soul to camland to get to this point.
♥ A model may earn large amounts of money, but that does not mean she is greedy, that she should ask for less money, or that she should not be upset if she cannot meet her goals. There is no reason that a high earning model should be happy that she just made 50% of her daily goal or that she only made 30% of her hourly goal, even if her goals are much higher than average. Just like nobody here should be happy if you were only able to make 50% of your normal sales today or 30% of your usual tips.
♥ It is erroneous to assume that these women are sitting on huge bank accounts and don't need the money they make daily to survive.
♥ Models work very hard to make their rooms enjoyable and stress-free. It doesn't look hard because she works hard to make it look easy. Just because a model is presenting a relaxed vibe doesn't mean this is the easiest job in the world and that she doesn't care what happens.

Not every high earning model has a stressful career. Not every high earning model is in debt or has people to take care of; some of them may have big bank accounts. Some of them didn't take years to get to the top. But their personal finances or their journeys are not the issue. I feel that everyone who reads a post like this can immediately think of a model or two who doesn't do shit and still makes great money, and I am not arguing that every model who earns well follows my hypothetical story up above. I am also not trying to say that low earning models earn less because they don't work hard. However, I feel that in general, some people have a very poor understanding of what kind of work actually goes in to making money doing 'nothing.'

It is okay to be frustrated. It is okay to work hard and be unhappy with the amount of money you make. It is okay to be surprised, amazed, or even irritated with how much money some models are making. But it is not okay to say that high earning models don't work for their money, it is not okay to say that they should be happy with whatever they get, and it is not okay to shame other women for their success.

:twocents-02cents:

 

[OpheliaChan]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

This was a really good post, Evvie, and I definitely think that it was needed.

I used to watch a few models all the time (there was one who's room I'd be a part of almost every night for a 6 months) but never really realized how much work actually went into it until I tried it out myself. If doing it part-time takes up so much... well... time. I can only imagine that the girls in the top 20 simply don't leave their house during their month. I dunno how else it would be possible to get all that work done. It seems like literally a job that you eat, sleep, breath. It's honestly a really exhausting job and they probably don't/can't take time off when they're really going for it.

And even though it seems like they've got their position 'locked' in, I'm sure most excessively worry about it drying up/becoming extremely unstable. It seems really stressful and more than just "showing up to the job"... it's definitely equivalent to a job where you have to be around people all the time - like a sales associate, except on a bigger scale. You constantly have to keep your clients/contacts happy even if they aren't tipping and make sure they're satisfied even if they're getting on your last nerve and keep smiling. It's definitely not something I could do full-time. It definitely requires talent other than looking nice and knowing how to be "sexy".

Great post. :3

 

[RogueWarrior]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Here's the way I look at it:

I've been around MFC for a while. I know that the top models are there for a reason. Which may or may not be known to me.

Your parenthetical (not on ACF) was very apropos. I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than myself, but I believe that members on ACF are not your typical MFC members.

I have been in rooms where tokens were flying for no apparent reason. Apparent being the key word. I was just there at a specific point in time. I don't know what went on in the past ten minutes, much less the past ten months.

That is why I don't generally frequent top models' rooms. There is a history there that I don't understand. I enjoy being there for the ride. Seeing a model go from a less than 1000 scamscore to 5k+ or more. And I'm not the indie rock guy who abandons someone once they get popular. I say, good for them. I always thought they had something and am now happy that others see the same thing.

And I say, good for you if you can sit there smile demurely and rake in tokens. Maybe not my cup of tea, but it obviously resonates with someone.

 

[UncleThursday]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

It's good to see the POV of models, for members, sometimes, Evvie.

And I think for those of us who are regular posters on ACF, we understand the time and effort it takes to be a top earning model on a site. Especially a site like MFC with camscore there to bring one up or down on the homepage.

Now, on to specific points:

She has spent 5 hours today texting a big tipper who is attacking her for going to a private show for another member.

I don't care how much someone tips to a model, that person does not own her and should not have any sort of feelings like she can't go private with a member. I have never felt 'betrayed' or jealous when a favorite goes private with someone else, even if I have tipped her a lot. There's no reason to feel that way, because it's her job. I remember a member telling me he got PMs from a members of a model we were both regulars with (she has, unfortunately, deleted her account :crybaby: ) about how he would take her away from the room for so long and it was unfair to the room. I simply told him it didn't phase me, and I never even cared who took her private or for how long. Because I took her private for about a half hour, myself... but on sites like MFC, going private is also her choice. Plus, she was often coming on when I was getting ready for bed, anyway. So I'd laugh, joke, etc. and most likely fall asleep while she was in private.

The only person who has any right to raise concerns about if a model goes private with members is her significant other. And, even then, they're going to have to come to some sort of compromise, especially if said model makes most of her income through privates.

She checks her PMs to see another big tipper is telling her to stop being lazy and work harder or else all his tips to get her in to the top 20 will be wasted.

Then, truthfully, the member is a narcissist. He's not helping her get a high ranking for her, he's helping her get that high rank so he can feel good about himself-- and maybe try to hold something over her head.

♥ Not all camrooms run on the premise of "tips in = immediate sexual action out". A model who gets a 500 token tip and does not immediately show her breasts or do a dance did not just get 'free' money.

I agree. In fact, last night I decided to surprise two models I know. I always tip them the same amount when I tip them (they're roommates). The one girl often has a "dreaming of an 1111 tip" in her topic, but didn't have it last night. I had a little extra money from all the OT I have been working, so I bought enough to tip them both 1111.

When I tipped the first one, she was surprised and she PMed me saying she thought I was joking and asked if I won the lottery. All I said about the tip is that we should have some Skype time soon, and she agreed. We'll get that together when we both have time. But I didn't ask her to flash/get naked/etc.

Then I tipped her roommate the same 1111 and said the same thing (what can I say, I'm a perv at times and I like doing Skype sometimes because we can talk one on one before and after sexy time :lol: ). She also asked me if I won the lottery. Then she PMed me, as did a few guys in her room, asking if the tip was for her topic to get naked. And I told her it was up to her. I'm getting a Skype out of it, so it's no big deal if she got nakie or not. She told me no one else was tipping, so I was the only one to deserve seeing anything, so she wasn't going to get nakie.

For the record, I was in PM windows with both of them, not in their rooms. So I have no idea what people in their rooms were saying.

But seeing the reaction on their faces was good enough. The Skype time form each is a bonus.

It was also nice that they both asked me if I could afford it and they didn't want me being broke. But, I am MFC broke for the next 2 weeks, I think; which is different from being totally broke.

Caveat: Not that I mind when they are naked. They're both super hot, and I am a man. :lol:

 

[UncleThursday]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

And even though it seems like they've got their position 'locked' in, I'm sure most excessively worry about it drying up/becoming extremely unstable. It seems really stressful and more than just "showing up to the job"... it's definitely equivalent to a job where you have to be around people all the time - like a sales associate, except on a bigger scale. You constantly have to keep your clients/contacts happy even if they aren't tipping and make sure they're satisfied even if they're getting on your last nerve and keep smiling. It's definitely not something I could do full-time. It definitely requires talent other than looking nice and knowing how to be "sexy".

As an example of not having one's position locked in:

Shy barely broke into the top 100 last month, and she is normally top 20 most months. But, I think she wasn't on as much last month. Her sister ended up being around 40 spots higher than her.

Shy is also one of the models that many people assume makes her money for doing jack shit. But, she does do a surprising amount of privates-- even though technically she could make more in public in the same time. Plus, she has built up a stable of regulars over the past few years.

So, just because people expect a model who is consistent top 20 to stay there, if she doesn't log in and her big tippers don't offline tip her, she isn't guaranteed to make her normal rank every month.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Uncle Thursday, on my phone so pardon my answers.

The examples I gave in my hypothetical are things I know have happened to models - multiple instances to multiple models. I agree that it is horrid for a tipper to shame 'his' model for not working hard enough, but it happens and it happens more often than you might think. I do not think either that all regulars 'want a piece' of a model. However, I think it is wise to remember that many models are not about to share issues publicly, and we can't know the more personal things she has to deal with to earn her psycheck

 

[southsamurai]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

first off, yet again evvie's brain makes my brain drool and want to make sweet monkey love to hers. it is so not fair! i wish i was that bloody smart

secondly, i know us members, even the more experienced and wise ones (or wise asses) can't really understand exactly what goes on when the camera is off. not fully anyway. i make an effort just as a mental exercise to "get it" as much as a non model can, but that can only go so far.

back in the day ( in the stone ages of 2009 and 2010) i was lucky enough to make friends outside of just camming with a couple of models towards the top end of things. not like go over for sunday dinner friends or anything, but emails and phone numbers exchanged type of long distance buddies. this was before i took my break from MFC and things have changed a lot since then i must admit. what i learned then applies now though. much of it evvie already said, and far better than i could hope to, so ill just skip to the parts that might help a member understand what it takes.

us members who work a job ( or used to) get up of a mornin, have our cup of joe or whatever then commute to the daily grind to earn our tip money. we finish up come home and repeat. most of the time we encounter the same people every day, do mostly the same tasks and then leave it behind when we hit the door. some models do the same minus the drive, but only some from what i've been told in off cam conversations.
being a cam model swallows a lot of your life in a way that few other careers can. imagine just for a moment having to not only, say for example, write a report on quarterly earnings or whatever, but doing it while 5 of your co-workers comment on how you are typing, the font you are using, and which color background is on your desktop. then, while they chatter away, another random guy comes in from another department and starts saying, hey dude, dude, look at me, look at me, im important! the guy at the next desk over is carrying on a conversation with the one in the other cubicle next to you, over your head. all this while your boss is paying you by how many words you type a minute rather than the quality of your work.
thats about as close as you can get to the actual experience of modeling on cam.
then you have all the personal issues with family, friends and lovers that doing any adult entertainment entails
add on all the special toys and clothing needed to keep things from getting boring for yourself and your viewers, the games and activities you have to come up with. hell its like being a stripper, a camp counselor, a complaint line operator, an activities director on a cruise ship and an actor all at once.

now i gotta say that the number of models i talk to off cam is pretty small, and its way smaller than it used to be. but out of the ones i've known that were top 100, not a single one put in less than 40 hours a week to get and stay there. two or three of them put in closer to 60 hour weeks, then did time on the weekends too.
i stopped trying to play white knight a loooong time ago, but when i see someone complaining about models getting paid "so much" for " so little" work it just pisses me off. makes me want to polish up the old lance and sword and do battle lol. yeah most of us here at ACF know better. but we tend to be a fairly small percentage of the pervs on the cam sites.
i've said it before elsewhere, but ill repeat it just because it bears saying: these wonderful ladies who give their time and energy in the profession of modeling are hard working, intelligent and wonderful people. respect them, because i dont know many guys who could do the job at all, much less do it well

 

[LadyLuna]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Let me chime in to say:

I could make so much more money if I did everything Evvie talked about in her hypothetical situation. Seriously. There are so many tippers I chased away by not having a way to contact me off-cam. So much money I've potentially lost out on because I don't check my site mail very often. So many fans I've lost due to jealousy, because I didn't try to play politics with them when they were upset by me going private.

You say you don't know half of what's going on while we're off-cam, but the truth is, most people don't know half of what we deal with ON cam either. The pm's that accuse us of this or that. The pm's that thoughtlessly bring up mental triggers, and expect us to play along with their fantasy that makes us want to log off and cry. Keeping members from jumping down each other's throats over trivial matters. Trying to balance the jokers with their targets and make sure the targets are aware that it's a joke, and find out if they want the joking to stop (has happened five times in my room, and twice, they wanted the joker to stop. One of those two times, I had to temp ban the joker, and say he was no longer allowed in my room when the target was around.) Pushing away the creepy guys, and treading thin lines with the creepy guys who aren't quite creepy enough to ban considering how much they tip.

A week or two ago, I posted in the Daily Thoughts thread about banning this member and feeling bad. He was a decent spender. About every six months, he would take me private for an hour or so, trying to get my glasses prescription. I told him two months ago to stop asking me (cause he stops by a couple times before the actual private to harass me about it in public chat). Yes, I banned him. Yes, it hurt my income. Yes, it needed to happen, because I was done with telling him know. The line that got me, I had just finished TYPING so there would be no mistake
"I will NOT tell you in public chat. I will NOT tell you in private chat. I will NOT tell you in a mail. I will NOT tell you in exclusive. I will NOT tell you over the phone in exclusive. SO STOP FUCKING ASKING ME."
And his response was, "let me charge my account, and you can tell me in private." And I was done with it. FUCK that shit.

And that attitude is why I have the camscore I have. Because guys like that are the ones that want to give me money. Guys who won't take no for an answer are the ones who give me a little over my bills. But I won't deal with guys who don't take no for an answer. It's hard enough for me to say no the first time, let alone ten times in a fucking hour. So I ban them, and deal with my smaller paychecks.

I'm not asking you guys to come change all that. I'm fine with having enough to pay the bills, and not much extra, and I really do appreciate the guys who come by and don't behave like that. I just wanted to give a personal story of just how right Evvie's post is.

(Trigger warning- daddy play)

When I first started on streamate, within a month, I had to log off three times to cool off. Because dudes would not listen to my "I will not play daddy-daughter roleplay with you." They wanted me to beg them... "fuck my little asshole daddy." or some shit like that. There were two instances where the guy asked about it in public, and I said no, and then they took me exclusive, and I repeated that I was not willing to play that way. They assured me that they weren't going to ask me to do that. And we would get into it. And I would be getting into it when they would drop it on me. "Good girl, you like how daddy fucks you." or "say how much you love daddy's dick." And one instance where the guy didn't even ask in public chat. Just took me private and started right in on it.

None of that, absolutely none of that, is ever viewed by people in public chat. When guys ask for shit like that, they ask for it in pm. When they continue it, they continue it in pm. Being called a bitch for refusing to fist my ass, whatever. But having that dropped on me without warning... especially after having been assured that they wouldn't do it. I've learned to ban those dudes when they first ask. I tell them "I don't do that sort of thing, have a good day!" and then ban them before they can take me private to make me participate anyway.

(end trigger warning)

As I stated, my point is not to complain about it. I've learned how to deal with it. And I'm fine with my $1200 a month that pays the bills. I can deal without the $1200-$2,000 twice a month, which is what happens when I let that shit happen, and neglect the housework, and spend all my time working. It would probably have grown to a lot more if I'd kept it up, I don't know. But I didn't want to live the way Evvie described, and I saw myself having to go down that road to keep up those paychecks. So I sacrificed the money. And I'm glad I made that decision.

 

[Zoomer]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

As always when it comes to a subject - sweeping generalisations are going to be sweeping. Yes, some top models bust nuts (not literally... hopefully) to be top, to reach the top, to stay at the top. But some most likely don't - it's just the way the way it is.

So what has been said may apply for some, undoubtedly so, or even most. But not all.

I have seen some "top" models who have no props. They have no special shows (meaning raffles, games etc), hasn't invested in any equipment other than a laptop and a webcam and cams in their lounge which looks... like a normal lounge with normal lighting. There is no sex machine, not even a dildo. They haven't been to college, or if they have, they're not from the US where it really does cost a fortune but in the EU where it doesn't (although the UK is getting vastly more expensive for students... but it's applicable to everyone, not the exclusivity of models). I am not disputing these statements therefore, just simply saying that there are exceptions.

I would, however, raise an eyebrow at the 350 hours statement. That's basically 12 hours per day, every day, without a break. Not saying I don't believe it, but I am saying I doubt every "top" model is putting in those hours to stay top every single month.

I should point out, I'm not really bothered by what models make (as in top models) - as they only earn what members think they are worth paying. It is the members choice. Good for the model if it happens to be huge amounts simply because they're beautiful, or because they are cranking out 240 hour months and buying props. It can also be high simply because many members believe what is being done is worth the $5 they tip, just that when 100 members think the same it turns out to be significant. That's the way the world works

But I think the point that most people miss is again the blanket statement. "Top models do nothing for their money" - no, they do something, don't they - they are on cam for starters. I think it is just the individual person who made that comment thinks that what they do is not worth what they personally think it is worth. Therefore the list isn't necessarily going to change their opinion. They'll still think the "huge" sums of money some girls receive isn't justified in their opinion even when everything you list is true. Again, that's just the way the world works...

So whilst the list will reveal things perhaps members never consider, the issue is the disjoint between a members valuation of the time and the people who are paying's valuation. Someone busting nuts to break min wage is not going to see that list, still see $100,000 a month income, and not believe that they're doing "nothing" for all that money. They may work 160 hour months of hard physical labour for $2000 per month. Of course to them she is "doing nothing". They will also believe the same is true of bankers, sports people, politicians, company executives, managers, CEO's, musicians, film/tv stars and anyone being paid more than them for an "easier" job.

Explaining a list of what may go on isn't likely to change that opinion much simply because they'll be seeing a girl potentially earning $500,000 a year and think "I would do all that thrice over for that money!". Finding out she texts people for hours a day, or does "overtime" to earn even more (as being in the top 20 does imply earning a significant sum of money!), isn't going to change their opinion. To them, the model is still being paid huge amounts compared to what they observe as the effort, or even now know as the effort.

I guess it may be seen that I may belong to the "top models don't do anything for their money" camp - and let me reiterate this to make it crystal clear. I have not said that, I have never said that, I'm never going to say that. Even if a top model just came on cam in their pj's after just waking up, no makeup, pulling the laptop on their knees, and get rained with $20,000 in 10 mins... that is the members choice and the members choice alone to do so and what the girl has done to "deserve" it is everything that they've done to that point which caused the member to tip it because it is that members valuation which rationalises it. Be that previous shows, personal interaction, or simply being born genetically "perfect" What I am saying is models deserve whatever the members think they do and I have zero opinion on what it all entails.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

♥ Models work very hard to make their rooms enjoyable and stress-free. It doesn't look hard because she works hard to make it look easy. Just because a model is presenting a relaxed vibe doesn't mean this is the easiest job in the world and that she doesn't care what happens.

I see this "that shit ain't hard work yo" mindset from a few friends because they sand floors and I work in a office. Different types of work, but both can still be "hard work". Some members might not realize how much physical work is required when it comes to simple things like standing and staring at a screen for hours, constantly bending forward to read,dancing in place, and other easy to overlook things.Dancing for a half hour probably feels like a decent workout but dancing for 2+ hours has got to be tiring/painful.

Somewhat related, I hate this idea that less popular or lower camscore girls aren't as hard working as more popular models. A girl with a low camscore that eats shit for a rate and admire can be just as hard working as the top models. I would certainly never visit this hypothetical models room but to think she isn't as dedicated or hard working because she doesn't make as much is dumb. I've seen top models from other sites with sub 1000 scores on mfc simply because they don't focus solely on mfc. Lots of studio models that work on a bunch of sites have awful scores but are still just "as good" as any of mfc's top models. For reals, the amount of gorgeous foreign studio models with low scores is mind blowing.

 

[Zoomer]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Would have thought it'd be more mental, than physical, in difference. I've had many jobs which have included standing, do include staring at screens, and my past time includes dancing for hours and hours (with a partner!). I haven't had any where I have people constantly physically appraise me, criticise me - or outright abuse me - for whatever reason. I can only imagine that it's very mentally challenging. I work as part of a team and even with team banter, that banter has affected me despite knowing it's a joke and is come from friends - it can and does weigh on my mind. It can wear you down. But a steady constant stream plus people playing mind games? Yikes.

As for who works hardest - the point of the original topic was whether the money they receive is deserved and addressing the idea that those who are getting huge sums of money aren't really having to work for it - let alone work hard. There appears to be a perception for some members that girls at the top make thousands of dollars a night without doing anything. She is pointing out the effort that can/may/is required to be "at the top", or more accurately (i think as she says), was required to get them to that position in the first instance. What they've had to do, possibly for years, to reach that, which members seem to be oblivious to (there is no history!).

I don't think anyone disputes the idea that models in general work, work hard, or are attractive - but that those at the very top can apparently sit still and just talk for 2 hours yet make $2000 in that time. For an equally beautiful hard-working lady at the bottom end, she'll likely take $20 for what appears to be the same, or far more exploitative (as in actually doing a cumshow or getting naked!), work. That's the discrepency - the view that the lady at the bottom has worked "hard" for that $20, whereas the girl at the top hasn't had to work hard so it must be undeserved that she gets lots of tips.

So the point was to address "these girls do jack shit and yet get tons of monies", not "only the girls at the top do any prep work or work hard".

But that's how I understood it I was just trying to say I don't think members who hold this opinion are going to be changed/swayed by what's been said as they, in general, just think it is insane that the girls earn this amount of money irrespective of the effort being put in.
My personal opinion is that girls receive whatever they deserve because it is what the members who are paying think she deserves. So how can it possibly be un-deserved. If I pay $20,000 for a car, it doesn't mean the car is worth $20,000 to everyone. It means it is worth $20,000 to me. So it's the "fair" or "right" price... for me. I can't have been ripped off by paying for it. Same for tippers.

The caveat I should add to that is I am specifically talking about girls at the very top of the game.
Girls who struggle, with lower camscores - I do think they get far less than they deserve for their effort and knowing a few of them, it is depressing.

 

[Aella]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

I'm not exactly a top model - my camscore orbits around an approximate 3000 point - but I kind of belong to the 'models don't do shit for their money' camp.
At least - in comparison to other jobs. I've worked my ass off for 8 bucks an hour, or 10 bucks an hour, with both physical and mental exertion. When I started camming, I would have been happy with $8 an hour for constant masturbation, because at least it was on my terms.

The amount I'm making now, even though it's modest by some standards, is far more than I ever could have dreamed was possible. And I do work very hard in my camshows - with miming and constant dancing and running around on my feet for hours and swapping out my sweat towel every day - it's still waaaay easier than I ever had it working for 'the man.'

If I believed in god, I'd say I'm incredibly blessed. My work/profit ratio is much better than nearly every other standard job ever, especially given my age and amount of official education. My view of money has been so warped. If ever I feel really bummed about making only $100 in 4 hours, I remind myself - holy shit, I just made $25 an hour, and hell, one year ago I would have killed my own mother to have a job that paid that.

It's not that we don't deserve it, it's just that it's awesome is all. It's so, so very awesome.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

My personal opinion is that girls receive whatever they deserve because it is what the members who are paying think she deserves.

I feel the same. I don't hate on models that don't make much or models that bank. What a model makes is none of my concern or business.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

My work/profit ratio is much better than nearly every other standard job ever, especially given my age and amount of official education. My view of money has been so warped. If ever I feel really bummed about making only $100 in 4 hours, I remind myself - holy shit, I just made $25 an hour, and hell, one year ago I would have killed my own mother to have a job that paid that.

It's not that we don't deserve it, it's just that it's awesome is all. It's so, so very awesome.

Be careful not to limit yourself. The dudes I know that sand floors can make over 2 grand a day and still refuse to learn any other trades or go back to school because it's so awesome. They don't care that when their forty they will have no real education, no employable skills that aren't backbreaking, a comical perc habit and a broken down body. Camgirls don't exactly have the same worries but I fear camming limits some models in the long run.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Well said, lady

I agree, it is silly to assume a successful person in any profession, is successful because they're prone to doing "nothing". They're there because they worked hard to get to the top of their chosen profession. Sure, some people get lucky and get promoted for fatuous reasons ahead of people more deserving, some people are fortunate enough to be able to coast through life because they were born with good looks, and some people are fortunate enough to be born with a natural aptitude for things that other people have to dedicate years of their life to master. But generally speaking, it's safe to assume that if someone is successful, it's because they've worked hard to become successful.

I think that for the vast majority of people who look down on successful cam girls, it's purely an issue of bitterness and jealousy. And I can kinda sorta see why they'd be jealous... (bulletpoints!)

- "I work 50 hours a week, performing back-breaking labour every day, just to put food on the table for my family. They go online a few hours a day and come away with more than I earn in a week"

- "To get to where I am today, I had to go to school, get my degree, spend two years in an unpaid apprenticeship and beat out a dozen other candidates to land the job. They just had to buy a webcam"

- "To get to my job, I have to get up at 5am, embark on a three hour commute and then walk half a mile. To get back, I have to do the same thing in the dark. If I'm lucky, I'll get home for 8pm and be in bed by 10pm. I have to do this 5 days a week to cover my living expenses. They get to decide when and if they work, and the furthest they have to travel is from the kitchen to the bedroom. I also suffer from explosive diarrhea"

Etc, etc.

There's a common thread that runs through the above gripes and the hundreds like them - it's not that cam girls are undeserving of their position - it's that the person complaining about things is likely unhappy with their own position in life. People who are truly happy in life don't give a shit if other people earn more than them. Why would they?

Furthermore, they all seem to ignore what it is that cam girls actually do. At its most basic level, camming is the art of selling things in a free market - sex shows, entertainment, companionship, videos, picture sets, worn panties... whatever. The more a cam girl sells, the more she earns. Some people are better at selling things than others. Some people are prepared to put more work in to selling things than others. It's these people who make the most money. If you bemoan the amount of money a cam girl earns in an hour, then in the interest of fairness, you also have to bemoan the amount of money a successful used car salesperson makes in an hour, or how much commission a successful telelphone salesperson makes. (I'm not suggesting that telesales and camming are the same thing by the way, just that both require a person to sell things and that the more they sell, the more money thay make, ya know?).

Then there's the argument of "they only get tipped because they're good looking". And while it's true that you don't see many 'ugly' models, and that there are no doubt some models whose success is largely attributable to their looks, the fact of the matter is that there are a looooooooot of fine ass bbs out there, and they can't all be super duper successful. Good looks are enough to get a cam girl's foot in the door, but it's not nearly enough to ensure their success. Sure, being hot is something that all successful cam girls have in common, but I would suggest that being driven, being smart, being entertaining, being likeable, and being hard working are further characteristics they all share.

I don't see a whole lot to be angry about there.

Some stray bulletpoints, yo :dance:

- Cam girls have it better than a lot of people and they have it worse than a lot of people

- Some people work harder than the average cam girl for less money, some cam girls work harder than the average person for less money

- Cam girls can make an obscene amount of money, just like anybody else working in a free market

- The amount of hours a cam girl logs on cam is likely not indicative of the amount of hours they dedicate to their job in total

- There are pros and cons to every profession, camming included

- Camming is a calculated risk as it can make it harder to find work later in life


TL;DR - Pretty much what Evvie said but less eloquently and with bog-standard bulletpoints as opposed to funky heart ones :?

 

[ComicOzzie]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

♥ Socialization is not necessarily easier, less tiring, or more fun to do than sex. A model who earns her money through socialization does not necessarily work any less than a model who earns her money doing sexual shows.

This. I truly cannot understand how a model can smoothly keep 8 different conversations going in free chat, while simultaneously answering god knows how many PMs. I freak out if more than 2 models are trying to chat with me in PM at once. Kudos! :handgestures-salute:

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

For the most part, I'm sure you're right about this (the topic statement). In many cases, it's obvious because you can see them "doing things," which may or may not be sexual but do involve effort. Also, there's surely, as you say, off-cam work involved as well as investments in time, money, and stress. Dealing with jerks and fools is frustrating to say the least, all the more so when it gets personal.

Out of curiosity, I sometimes spend some time observing a top model whose appeal isn't immediately obvious to me. More often than not, I'll see that they're doing something I was unaware of that people are enjoying. It may or may not be my cup of tea, but fine, everyone has their likes and dislikes. A few times though, I've just been totally boggled. I guess it could have been reputation based on past hard work, or maybe a lot of guys found the model vastly more attractive than I did, but I have seen a couple who pretty much just sat there and neither interacted nor put on shows. Do I take this to mean that popular models, in general, do nothing for their money? No, I think most put in a lot of effort, but there may be a few outliers who somehow manage to do not very much. Does that trouble me greatly? No, there are plenty of people in the world who have nice gigs. There's no need for me to "call them out." As far as I'll go is thinking to myself, "man, X (a model I like personally) should be more popular than this one is.

 

[Not_Reqd]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

IMO, the whole problem with MFC is the "F" part. When you advertise something as FREE it seems to give people a sense of entitlement.

 

[victor0021]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

The "F" part is also what makes it so successful. I have a love/hate relationship with MFC now and even though I loathe freeloaders I understand that without the "F" part there is no way MFC would exist in it's current form.

On the successful models working hard part. I think the best way to look at it is that it doesn't matter what people think about what you do for a living. The best practice is to define your own worth and ban the fuckers that don't agree. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Trajan66]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

I think that what the models do is work in the sense that they are being paid to provide entertainment. I believe that the successfull models find it "fun" work meaning they enjoy what they do.
Allow me an example: I work at a job in sales that I love. I am good at it, make fantastic money, and am consistantly the number one salesman for my company. I enjoy the relationships I have with my clients and assisting them when I am needed. I have more business then I can handle at most times during the month. I have co-workers that do the same position as I but not the same level of success. Mostly because it's a job to them that they dont really like.
Being a successfull cam model is just like any other sales position. If you love doing the job it shows through in your performance and that gravitates people to you. For me, what models do looks to be hard work. Entertaining people I can't see, the orgasms (real ones and the faked ones), maintaining relationships with screen names, having ALL of your body displayed in HD.
What I have in common with a successful cam model is this: we both think "man, I love this job and I can't believe I get paid this well for what I do."
Give it 6 months and if you can't say to yourself: "I am good at this, I enjoy doing it, and I am making good money for what I do" get another line of work, its not for you.
Another thought, I always get a chuckle when I here models be amazed that some girls get good tips for not doing a sex show or crotch flash etc. and comment "they just sit there and talk on the couch and get tipped."
Think about this ladies: whats the harder job masterbating with a toy or developing a online relationship with a guy that just wants a pretty face to talk to and be friendly with and occasionally getting to see nude in a private?
Success comes to those that truely enjoy what they do.
T66

 

[AlexLady]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Think about this ladies: whats the harder job masterbating with a toy or developing a online relationship with a guy that just wants a pretty face to talk to and be friendly with and occasionally getting to see nude in a private?
T66

Oh yes because models who masturbate with a toy don't give a fuck about the man they're cumming for. Nope, we don't even treat them like people they're just wallets to us, lol! It's so easy to masturbate because we don't have to be pretty or socialize with anyone! Fuck my pussy, and fuck friends! I don't need to do all that bullshit to make money, nope, I have toys! </SCARCASM>

 

[UncleThursday]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Think about this ladies: whats the harder job masterbating with a toy or developing a online relationship with a guy that just wants a pretty face to talk to and be friendly with and occasionally getting to see nude in a private?

See, I don't like sales people in companies. Mostly because they don't understand where the real work is.

Both aspects of being a cam girl, the social and sexy time aspects, are hard work for the models. Time, preparation, the ability to do what you have to to earn on cam, it all takes work. Dealing with morons, people who expect them to shove baseball bats up their asses for nothing, people recording and posting them doing naughty things online for the whole world to see, people berating them and putting them down, people trying to stalk them, etc. and still managing to put on a happy face when they come on cam? That's work.

Now, let's look at sales people... Sure, they have to sell stuff to the customers. But, depending on what the business is, in many cases sales can be guaranteed (contracts, etc.). All they have to do is sell it. It's not up to them to get it out the door to the customer. And they'd kill their own mother-- and resurrect her to do it all over again, multiple times-- if it meant they could jump ahead of other sales in the queue to make a promised delivery date-- that they don't have to do jack shit to actually get the product delivered-- just to make themselves look good to the customer.

Top sales people are even worse. The top sales guy in the company I work for is based out of our facility. He constantly makes sales that have to go out the next day because he made a promise to the customer, even though he knows we have lead times for a reason. And all he does is then call up to the Director of Production for the company and says "this order has to go out tomorrow." And since that director of production only knows how to say "no" when it comes to granting employees raises, he then calls the production manager of whichever facility the product is shipping out of to tell them to stop whatever else they're doing and get this douchecock's order out.

Does the sales person have to actually do anything to get the product out the door? Nope. He just hops in his $50k car and drives off at 5 PM. It's up to the people who make far less than him to actually get his order out.

I'm probably going to get myself fired in the next few weeks, too. Because I know he's going to send some outrageous order to my department, it will be "super hot! Must ship tomorrow!" And I'm going to take his order, walk up to his office, throw it on his desk and tell him if he wants it done by the next day, he better get his ass out there and start working on it. Because my whole facility is weeks behind, thanks to the moving we just did from one building to another, and instead of realizing why things have been getting shipped late, he's been sending emails to the higher ups and the customers calling everyone on the floor incompetent for not being able to get his orders out when he promises them. And now the higher ups-- who so brilliantly decided we could somehow keep up full production while moving material and equipment to a new building-- have decided that the regular employees have to work 12 hour days, 6 days a week until we're caught up. And most of us have already had less than 4 days off in the past 6 weeks.

So, I guess TLDR: Fuck sales people, they don't know what real work is.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

So, I guess TLDR: Fuck sales people, they don't know what real work is.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. If you mean to say that sales people are fortunate that their job isn't very physically demanding, then yes, I would agree. But just because someone's job requires them to talk to people on a phone all day doesn't mean that they don't work hard. Salesmanship is a skill. Like any skill, it takes time and effort to perfect. It seems a little harsh to assume that someone doesn't work hard - or more to the point, isn't very good at their job - just because they don't have to do any heavy lifting :twocents-02cents:

 

[UncleThursday]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

So, I guess TLDR: Fuck sales people, they don't know what real work is.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. If you mean to say that sales people are fortunate that their job isn't very physically demanding, then yes, I would agree. But just because someone's job requires them to talk to people on a phone all day doesn't mean that they don't work hard. Salesmanship is a skill. Like any skill, it takes time and effort to perfect. It seems a little hard to assume that someone doesn't work hard - or more to the point, isn't very good at their job - just because they don't have to do any heavy lifting :twocents-02cents:

Oh, they work hard, at bullshitting to get sales, no doubt. But, in the end, they're not the ones that have to make the promise come true.

I guess a good cam analogy would be CamGirlX asks 10k tokens for a show. Gets the tokens. Then tells everyone to go to CamGirlY's cam to get the show. CamGirlY spends all day putting on shows for CamGirlX, but gets paid a fraction of what CamGrilX makes.

Cam girls are the mix of sales people (getting people to purchase), the person on the floor (they deliver what they sold) and the product itself (they are the product).

Sales people have their own special place in hell, right next to ambulance chasing lawyers.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

So, I guess TLDR: Fuck sales people, they don't know what real work is.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. If you mean to say that sales people are fortunate that their job isn't very physically demanding, then yes, I would agree. But just because someone's job requires them to talk to people on a phone all day doesn't mean that they don't work hard. Salesmanship is a skill. Like any skill, it takes time and effort to perfect. It seems a little hard to assume that someone doesn't work hard - or more to the point, isn't very good at their job - just because they don't have to do any heavy lifting :twocents-02cents:

Oh, they work hard, at bullshitting to get sales, no doubt. But, in the end, they're not the ones that have to make the promise come true.

I guess a good cam analogy would be CamGirlX asks 10k tokens for a show. Gets the tokens. Then tells everyone to go to CamGirlY's cam to get the show. CamGirlY spends all day putting on shows for CamGirlX, but gets paid a fraction of what CamGrilX makes.

Cam girls are the mix of sales people (getting people to purchase), the person on the floor (they deliver what they sold) and the product itself (they are the product).

Sales people have their own special place in hell, right next to ambulance chasing lawyers.

But by this rationale, screenwriters deserve no credit. They just write stuff and then directors and actors and cameramen and cinematographers and special effects artists and crew members go out and work hard to make that script a reality. By this rationale, advertisers don't work hard. They just promote a product or a business and then leave that business to do all the hard work getting their product into the hands of their customers. By that rationale, doctors don't work hard, they just diagnose people and send them to the hospital where surgeons and nurses operate on them and give them sponge baths. And so on and so forth.

Without sales people, there'd be no sales and without any sales, there'd be no jobs. It's not really a salesperson's fault that in order to sell to people they don't have to do anything physically demanding.

 

[Just Me]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

So, I guess TLDR: Fuck sales people, they don't know what real work is.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. If you mean to say that sales people are fortunate that their job isn't very physically demanding, then yes, I would agree. But just because someone's job requires them to talk to people on a phone all day doesn't mean that they don't work hard. Salesmanship is a skill. Like any skill, it takes time and effort to perfect. It seems a little hard to assume that someone doesn't work hard - or more to the point, isn't very good at their job - just because they don't have to do any heavy lifting :twocents-02cents:

Oh, they work hard, at bullshitting to get sales, no doubt. But, in the end, they're not the ones that have to make the promise come true.

I guess a good cam analogy would be CamGirlX asks 10k tokens for a show. Gets the tokens. Then tells everyone to go to CamGirlY's cam to get the show. CamGirlY spends all day putting on shows for CamGirlX, but gets paid a fraction of what CamGrilX makes.

Cam girls are the mix of sales people (getting people to purchase), the person on the floor (they deliver what they sold) and the product itself (they are the product).

Sales people have their own special place in hell, right next to ambulance chasing lawyers.

I hope you do not mean that after saying cam girls are a mix of sales people.

Here is a sales person doing harder work than I ever have in my life, would certainly have received a sales from me. :lol:

 

[Nordling]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Another case of stereotyping. When I was a salesman, I often had to unload the trucks because our one warehouse guy would call in sick half the time, and as far as making promises to get a sale...if the promise was based JUST on getting the customer's money...like promising something "tomorrow" that we didn't even have in stock...my boss woud have told me I'd better SHIT that item and deliver it myself.

Every company and every job is different; just like people.

 

[UncleThursday]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Without sales people, there'd be no sales and without any sales, there'd be no jobs. It's not really a salesperson's fault that in order to sell to people they don't have to do anything physically demanding.

But it Is the fault of sales people when they make promises that cannot realistically be kept.

Example:

Salesperson putting in unrealistic order that in no way could conceivably ship out in under a day at the end of the day."Yeah! No problem! I can get that shipped out tomorrow for you!" Puts in order. Goes home. Comes in the next day. If order cannot ship, calls/emails higher ups in company bitching about how his/her customer needs it shipped out that day. Higher ups rain holy hell down on regular employees for not getting order shipped out on time.

Notice that the sales person promised he/she would get the order out? What exactly did the sales person do to get it shipped? Oh, right, nothing-- until the sales person gets the upper management involved. It doesn't even matter if there is or isn't physically intensive work required to get the order shipped. The point I am making is that the sales person makes promises he/she doesn't have to keep. Someone else has to keep them for them. And if the promise can't be kept? Well, it's the fault of all the other people, and certainly not the fault of the sales person making an unrealistic promise. They did their job; right?

And this is how it works in many sales jobs in many different fields. Sales people end up being sacrosanct, and no matter how unrealistic the promise, everyone else below them is expected to get it out.

I hope you do not mean that after saying cam girls are a mix of sales people.

No, because they have to deliver on their promises.

Another case of stereotyping. When I was a salesman, I often had to unload the trucks because our one warehouse guy would call in sick half the time, and as far as making promises to get a sale...if the promise was based JUST on getting the customer's money...like promising something "tomorrow" that we didn't even have in stock...my boss woud have told me I'd better SHIT that item and deliver it myself.

Every company and every job is different; just like people.

Rare job, then. The only time I've ever seen sales people on the floor of any company I have worked for was when they were bitching and crying about why their order wasn't done. Most of them wouldn't know the right end of a pallet jack, let alone a fork truck to unload a truck. I suppose the only difference would be the example you mention of being out of stock where the sales person would be held accountable... unless they could pass the blame on to inventory for not having the system updated fast enough.

Every company is different, yes, but the bigger the company, the more sacrosanct sales people become. It's an unfortunate fact of life.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Uh, there are a TON of jobs that aren't physically demanding but require a lot of work. At first I thought that your post was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, Uncle, because I thought surely nobody could be that ignorant.

The fact of the matter is, companies don't WANT to hire people that aren't doing any work. If salesmen are necessary for the company to survive, they will be hired. Why would a company give someone money to do something that's not work?

The hardest part of being a camgirl is sales. Making a sale is really hard, especially when people are already in this "fuck salesmen" attitude. You have to be engaging and funny and personable and it's not easy getting people to part with their money and having them like it.

I was listening to a story on a podcast about a guy's father buying him a new car and his interaction with the sales person. The father treats the salesperson like total shit "I'm not like all those other chumps, I'm a lawyer and I know what I'm talking about and you can't fool me! Don't even try! I know you're going to try to cheat me!" Shit, if someone said that to me I'd be tempted to go "Don't worry, I won't try. Find your own damn car" and walk away. What does the salesman say? "Oh good, it's nice to talk to a successful man that knows what he's talking about and knows what he wants. Glad to know we're on the same page!" Do you realize how difficult it is to remain cheerful and take something rude that's thrown at you and turn it around into a compliment, while also bonding with said asshole? Salesmen do this ALL FUCKING DAY. WITH A SMILE. And half the time, more than half the time, they don't even make the sale. They have to go into this spiel, deal with these assholes, knowing from the very beginning that they're probably not going to close the deal. And then they move onto the next customer, after having sold nothing all day, their boss yelling at them because their sales aren't high enough. All the while dealing with the stress of knowing they're working on commission and are making way less than they should for all the work they're putting in, wondering if they're going to make enough money to make ends meet.

Oh, and everyone they talk to on the floor hates them and treats them like they're not even human because they're a salesperson.

 

[RoxieRed]

Re: Successful models are not doing "nothing" for their mone

Without sales people, there'd be no sales and without any sales, there'd be no jobs. It's not really a salesperson's fault that in order to sell to people they don't have to do anything physically demanding.

But it Is the fault of sales people when they make promises that cannot realistically be kept.

Example:

Salesperson putting in unrealistic order that in no way could conceivably ship out in under a day at the end of the day."Yeah! No problem! I can get that shipped out tomorrow for you!" Puts in order. Goes home. Comes in the next day. If order cannot ship, calls/emails higher ups in company bitching about how his/her customer needs it shipped out that day. Higher ups rain holy hell down on regular employees for not getting order shipped out on time.

Notice that the sales person promised he/she would get the order out? What exactly did the sales person do to get it shipped? Oh, right, nothing-- until the sales person gets the upper management involved. It doesn't even matter if there is or isn't physically intensive work required to get the order shipped. The point I am making is that the sales person makes promises he/she doesn't have to keep. Someone else has to keep them for them. And if the promise can't be kept? Well, it's the fault of all the other people, and certainly not the fault of the sales person making an unrealistic promise. They did their job; right?

And this is how it works in many sales jobs in many different fields. Sales people end up being sacrosanct, and no matter how unrealistic the promise, everyone else below them is expected to get it out.

I hope you do not mean that after saying cam girls are a mix of sales people.

No, because they have to deliver on their promises.

Another case of stereotyping. When I was a salesman, I often had to unload the trucks because our one warehouse guy would call in sick half the time, and as far as making promises to get a sale...if the promise was based JUST on getting the customer's money...like promising something "tomorrow" that we didn't even have in stock...my boss woud have told me I'd better SHIT that item and deliver it myself.

Every company and every job is different; just like people.

Rare job, then. The only time I've ever seen sales people on the floor of any company I have worked for was when they were bitching and crying about why their order wasn't done. Most of them wouldn't know the right end of a pallet jack, let alone a fork truck to unload a truck. I suppose the only difference would be the example you mention of being out of stock where the sales person would be held accountable... unless they could pass the blame on to inventory for not having the system updated fast enough.

Every company is different, yes, but the bigger the company, the more sacrosanct sales people become. It's an unfortunate fact of life.

This is so way off topic from the thread but I'm going to ignorantly butt in here.

It actually sounds to me like the salesman is doing exactly what they are meant to do, finding a way to make the sale. Delivery is likely one area they have a little wiggle room to make the sale happen. I wonder how many of the sales wouldn't even take place if these promises weren't being made? In most cases, people want to feel they are being catered to and are getting a good deal in order to make a purchase from a salesperson. I think the salesman is just trying to deliver on that. Which is expected and his way of doing a good job. From there the company should take over and make the rest happen.

It sounds like the management of the company is to blame for not having the appropriate staffing/ systems ready to handle the delivery for the quantity of sales they are currently making.