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The Red Pill (A documentary made by a feminist on actual MRAs)

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AudriTwo

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"When a feminist filmmaker sets out to document the mysterious and polarizing world of the Men's Rights Movement, she begins to question her own beliefs."


I didn't hear about this movie until after I read about feminists trying to stop this movie from screening and they haven't even watched it. I love me a good Streisand effect and I wanted to see why I was so wrong. Any sort of an authoritarian like hive minds tells me not watch something, I'm gonna fucking watch it and draw my own conclusion.

They brought up issues like male suicide rates, paternity rape, domestic abuse, custody cases ect. If you have a father, brother, husband, or any males in your life, that you care about. You should really watch this.
 
I have watched this several years ago, and I did find it interesting. But then these are all issues that most feminists I know also look at, a lot of the major feminist sites do put some emphasis on these issues as they see them as being part of unhealthy gender stereotypes. I for example am really big about removing gender stereotypes, I believe if you take away a lot of the macho stuff that a lot of problems men face will ease off and with them issues I face as a woman will also start to disappear.

One problem is with some of the issues I noticed raised in this documentary is they're either actually kind of ignorant when you look at statistics and many things are just myths. Custody cases for example tend to be based on who gives the primary care rather than gender. It's just that statistically more women are the primary caregivers, so of course they win custody battles. In cases where the male stays at home and takes care of the children and the woman works then he will win custody. There are also plenty of cases I've noticed from my experience where the man didn't want full custody and chose not to have it but then complained about the outcome. Joint custody is also an option which many people don't go on for.
This is an interesting article with some statistics, I haven't checked them on this but from what I've checked up on before this is about right: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html
In this it shows that in 91% of custody cases the decision is made before they get to court, between the parents.
I hear these complaints a lot from some men, especially in the case of child support or having to support their ex wife. The complaints make me think, they just haven't thought it through. You can't expect someone to quit their job, raise your children, look after your home, support and look after you as you work and then upon divorcing them leave them with no way to gain an income because they're close to retirement age and it's unlikely they'll be able to find suitable work or a pension. The courts are there for this reason, and marriage is a lifetime contract which cannot be got out of without consequences. Courts aren't biased towards gender, they help the vulnerable party and try to make sure things are fair. In most cases this has been the woman.
Now that more women are able to work and keep their jobs through having children this may change and be very different in the future.

Male suicide rates are interesting. Men are 4 times more likely to die by suicide but females attempt it 3 times as often as males. I've done some research into this subject and the general conclusion is the way that men try to kill themselves tends to be more drastic, aggressive and permanent, for example shooting yourself in the head. While women tend to use methods which are less immediately lethal (like poison) which mean they're more likely to be caught and saved. Interestingly in the UK successful male suicide rates aren't as different as to women as in the USA which I wonder is because we don't have access to firearms. So I don't know if this is to do with social conditioning making men less happy with life or just the natural differences in men and women and how we like to do things.

There were also some issues I can remember being mentioned as well about abortion and men having no rights to whether the woman wants to keep or abort it. Unfortunately for men who have this complaint, I feel ya, but if you want to change that and hold control over the woman's body then you're a fucking dickhead. It's anatomy and there's nothing we can do to change, I might as well sit and complain all day about how sucky it is that if I want a child I'll have to carry it inside me and then squeeze a head out of my vagina. Also, you do have some control over getting a girl pregnant and knowing you're on the same page, and it's not so crazy common that the person you're with won't discuss it.

Honestly the whole "Red pill" thing makes me sad because gender issues aren't a "male vs female" thing, they're something that effect all of us. That particular documentary seemed to focus on a few nice seeming guys having a moan about how much worse it is to be male. It was a while ago that I watched it but I can't remember it going much into what the "red pill" is actually about in internet culture and the kind of guys who talk about it. In my experience it tends to be used in the same way that some people try to deny the holocaust, denying the obvious facts that women have a lot of pretty serious issues against them which while are gradually getting better are still there.

I can understand from the perspective of a man who has never groped, harassed or done anything bad to a woman but has had many negative experiences due to his gender. Not being trusted as much as women, having women being rude to him or completely unattainable. Maybe has a bitchy mother/sister who weren't nice to him or bullied him. Maybe he sees his father working hard at a job so much he barely gets to see him, and when he sees him he's stressed. Maybe he thinks his mum is being lazy staying at home. Maybe a couple of times he's had an experience where a woman has groped him and he hasn't been able to say anything, so he wonders why women are always complaining about it. He hears stories from his mates of nasty girls who will lie about being raped to get revenge on guys and ruin their lives. He sees girls at the clubs getting bought drinks and having all the control. Maybe he gets used by a girl and feels he has to spend money on her. He falls in love and has his heart broken. He hears more stories and fears it if he gets a girl pregnant and then she has all the choice. He then hears stories of how women are favoured in courts and men have their children taken away from him. He starts to feel passionate about this. Maybe when he grew up he saw all these cases of men in charge and he doesn't understand why this isn't the case, he wants that. Women are bitches, women have all the power.

Yeah, I can see why some men get very angry towards women. My current boyfriend didn't have that dissimilar experience growing up. He definitely had nothing against women, but it was only after moving out of the countryside and going out with me that he saw some of the issues women face and became a feminist. We talk about issues that both men and women face and see them in a "fix one and the other comes with it" kind of thing.
I have got the feeling that certain mens rights activists are a little bit like holocaust deniers. If you mention problems faced by women such as rape statistics or pay gaps they often actively deny it or try to brush it off with something else. The idea of men's rights activists is not to actually try to make things better for men, as they rarely campaign for anything. It's the idea that women have it better than men, which often comes with the denial of any of the negative stuff women have to face. Because let's face it, put rape statistics up against "I might not have a choice if she wants an abortion", and you're facing a losing battle.

What I also notice is that a lot of men's rights activists don't bring up genuine problems that men face. As in real statistics or things men face and not "I heard from such and such that x happened". Like more men are at risk of being a victim of a violent crime (except rape). MRA's often talk like it's a battle between the sexes, but men get attacked too. By men. And in rape cases men are much more likely to be raped by another man than a woman. Men are also significantly more likely to commit a crime, especially a violent crime. Why is this? Recently I did a bunch of study on crime and conviction statistics, men vs women. It's interesting because I had heard people say courts are biased and women get smaller charges. By looking at this in cases that were similar to male cases such as robbery women actually got sentenced more harshly. From what I could see because the majority of women committed less serious offences (mostly fraud or speeding) they were getting shorter sentences, while men were much more likely to commit violent offences known for harsher sentencing.
Another area I have studied recently is viewing aggression in others and how it makes you more likely to commit it. Girls are as susceptible as boys to violent conditioning, except more violent programmes have strong male leads and are therefore more interesting for boys. Perhaps this could be why more men go out and commit crimes. Or maybe not. But it's definitely something worth looking at, as crime is not only bad for society, it's also bad for the person doing so.

The red pill as far as I can tell (not this documentary so much) talks a lot about things which in my opinion are gender stereotypes which are more harmful towards men. I thought the documentary was interesting enough but really didn't show much of what the red pill is about, it was more focusing on the mens rights activists who had perfectly normal seeming lives and families. I think absolutely great to have something that isn't biased, but it turned out to be biased as it was about her turning around to their cause and then getting confused. I don't agree with the amount of grief she was given, I don't think she should have made a documentary about hating them, but I think she ended up going a bit too lovey dovey. It's quite an American thing to have biased and more dramatic documentaries which is why I usually stick to British ones as I prefer to look with an open mind while having the person being questioned about various different issues. I don't like the drama, just the information. I think I'll have to re watch it as I could have missed things in my memory, but as I can remember she didn't really touch on enough of the issues that MRA's cause. To me it's kind of like white people saying black people get everything better because some employers or universities like ethnic minorities. Which would just be the height of white privilege. You're not only completely missing all the discrimination and racism they have to deal with that you don't, you're also pulling attention away from those peoples issues and help stall any progress. MRA's to me come from a land of male privilege. All men have issues which it'd be great to resolve, I don't know any man without their own set of problems, but I know very few men who would try to say they trump the issues women face. It takes a certain kind of special guy to become an MRA, and that just isn't something to be proud of IMO.
 
I don't know any man without their own set of problems, but I know very few men who would try to say they trump the issues women face. It takes a certain kind of special guy to become an MRA, and that just isn't something to be proud of IMO.

You really missed the point I think. You'd have to be an idiot to claim men have it worse but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about issues men face. Women have it worse so men can fuck off is how your post reads in parts. Most MRAs are as awful as most modern day feminists so don't take this as me defending them.
 
it takes a certain kind of special guy to become an MRA, and that just isn't something to be proud of IMO.
It's interesting to me because on the surface, saying you're a men's rights activist sounds totally fine. Like, those are important issues and especially if they do (or might) affect you, you should be concerned about them. But MRA has become synonymous with misogyny and stuff like r/theredpill, PUAs and other things that are quite icky and often openly anti-woman. So when I hear someone say "I'm a men's rights activist" my immediate reaction is "oh great here we go".

What's funny to me is that feminists (myself included!) hate being defined by our most extreme, and by stereotypes. We know that feminists who say all sex is rape are a minority who don't represent us, but yet we (speaking generally here) don't differentiate between the extreme, hateful MRAs and the normal ones.

I do think MRA has become a loaded term (as has feminist, but feminist has a lot more history behind it that I think makes it harder to change), but I imagine any kind of men's rights movement would get painted with the same brush as it's seen as countering feminism and thus, bad. (I think this happens to feminism, too - seen as being anti-men or wanting to take away their rights.) I see men's rights and women's rights be pitted against each other all the time, and it doesn't make sense to me. The issues often intersect in ways where it seems progress for one would be progress for the other. And when they don't, I think it's perfectly valid to focus on your own issues.

I have issues that I really care about, and those are the ones I focus my time, money, and effort to. Some affect me personally and some don't but for whatever reason they call to me. I donate money to a couple animal shelters, a sex work organization, a gay men's health org, and an anti-rape organization. It's not that I am against people who care about climate change or fighting cancer or orphans, those just aren't my causes and so I don't do actively work towards changing them. If a guy dedicated his charitable endeavours to ending male suicide or domestic abuse against men, then great. Those are important causes and they don't have to come up against me working on women's issues. This has become a tangent but I get tired of the idea that everyone must focus on everything. It's okay for feminism to focus on women, it's okay for men's rights to focus on men. While I do think feminism helps men in some ways, I don't like that nowadays we often have to placate dudes and non-feminist women by saying "it's okay, it helps guys! Feminism is working for you, too!" What's wrong with feminism being focused on women? Likewise, what's wrong with men's rights focusing on men? We can support each other in small ways while still emphasizing what matters most to us. I don't fault the people at the animal shelter for skipping the sex workers march, lol.

Anyways. They screened this film at my university a while back and as far as I know there was no outcry, which is interesting because my school has some tension between the very liberal feminists and the edgelord MRA types. It was pretty poorly advertised but kind of funny that some Redditors were like "we gotta be ready for the feminazi tears, lol they're gonna be so triggered!!!" And there were no tears and no triggering but it's definitely stupid rhetoric like that that adds to the idea that MRAs don't actually care about these issues as much as they care about enraging feminists. (I feel the same about "lol male tears" or when they make a female lead in something and people seem to care more about how angry the male fans will be than about the lead herself.)
 
You really missed the point I think. You'd have to be an idiot to claim men have it worse but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about issues men face. Women have it worse so men can fuck off is how your post reads in parts. Most MRAs are as awful as most modern day feminists so don't take this as me defending them.

I think you missed the point, the red pill tends to be the belief that women have it better than men. I think you also missed many parts of my post where I mention issues men face and how I think it's important to address them. What I did also mention was that there are many myths of gender bias which are easily explained, like the court system. I mentioned this because they are wasted energy, there is no point in protesting something that doesn't exist in the first place. If men want more time with their children then all they need to do is ask for it and show they're willing to provide as much care. There is no law or court system that is stopping them. There is also that MRA's are shit at trying to gain change that could be positive which makes them lose respect.

I also don't believe most modern day feminists are awful. Every feminist activist I know in my age group is very liberal, not remotely radical and has a lot of love and respect for men. There are radical feminists who are always getting attention but they're actually a minority in the movement. While MRA's and the red pill guys they pretty much all tend to be pretty disgusting or very deluded in a very us versus them. Both of the movements are pretty negative. At least with radical feminism you can understand where it came from, at the time it started women literally had laws against them, not allowing them to keep children and various other things which have changed. The mens rights movement on the other hand seems to be more of a backlash at women starting to gain more independence and freedom, and men feeling left out because feminism comes from the word feminism. Which always kinda makes me laugh how upset people get about that when you look at the large amount of language which is orientated around men. I've always thought focusing on language was kinda petty when looking at the big picture, whether you're male or female.

Edit because I want to add that I really like Gen's post. I agree that there's nothing wrong with men having a group where they try and end their issues. It'd actually be really great as there are completely legitimate problems and I believe it would help educate people and I am very much of the belief that ending male problems would end women's problems.
The problem with the MRA's versus feminism is that feminism started because of some very real problems and gender imbalances. I mean let's face it, women were oppressed to the point of basically being slaves, which is terrifying to think of now. And generally feminists today genuinely want change because they talk about things that effect them day to day. With MRA's it doesn't seem to be much about mens rights at all, it doesn't seem to come from education or a desire for those changes. And that's where they lose respect. Because like Gen said, it sometimes seems to be more about pissing women off/getting back at feminists/women and generally some kind of competition. Which isn't positive at all, nor is it anything to do with lowering male suicide rates or encouraging men to report domestic violence/rape.
 
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I'm going to choose to believe this even though I'm not quite sure about it. I want to believe haha.

Seeing as a reasonable majority of western women (and plenty of men too) identify as being feminist now I assure you they are not all radical man haters. Some people still shy away from the word but then still support the movement itself. While MRA's are still a pretty rare breed.
 
I have watched this several years ago, and I did find it interesting.

There is no way you watched this several years ago, since it was released this year. You may have this confused by something else. And it sounds like you haven't watched it.
 
Taking the chance to recommend this one documentary about how male stereotypes and our world in general can affect men (and, by consequence women) in a negative way and how it is so into our culture that we many times dont see.

Trailer:


Link to the full doc (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/br/title/80076159
 
There is no way you watched this several years ago, since it was released this year. You may have this confused by something else. And it sounds like you haven't watched it.

Ah you're right, I think it must have been a shortened down version of the end result but it had a lot of the same footage. It was all about her making it and was fairly long but not as long as the full film. I think she brought it out early because she was getting so much grief about making the film. So I don't know what the end result was. Thanks for clearing that up, I was wondering why something old was getting so much attention right now!
 
Ah you're right, I think it must have been a shortened down version of the end result but it had a lot of the same footage. It was all about her making it and was fairly long but not as long as the full film. I think she brought it out early because she was getting so much grief about making the film. So I don't know what the end result was. Thanks for clearing that up, I was wondering why something old was getting so much attention right now!

They released a lot their footage from the University of Toronto MRA protests back in 2013 because there wasn't enough coverage. A lot of that footage has been used by others. That's probably where you've seen it.
 
I have got the feeling that certain mens rights activists are a little bit like holocaust deniers. If you mention problems faced by women such as rape statistics or pay gaps they often actively deny it or try to brush it off with something else.
I've got the feeling that's a Godwin.

It's the idea that women have it better than men, which often comes with the denial of any of the negative stuff women have to face. Because let's face it, put rape statistics up against "I might not have a choice if she wants an abortion", and you're facing a losing battle.
Here is the problem with the extreme voices in this religion. Too much of it boils which class is the bigger victim.

There are voices in your midst that care nothing about real liberty for women. They care only about completely dominating the narrative, and they use the statistics to give a free pass to whatever deranged nonsense they cook up (e.g. rape culture). They want power to rule...not over men, but over everyone. Nothing more.

What do you think of this Isabella?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey
"Pizzey said that militant feminists – with the collusion of Labour's leading women – hijacked her cause and used it to try to demonise all men, not only in Britain, but internationally.[18] Pizzey said of the newly emerging establishment "I never saw Women's Aid as a movement that was hostile to men, but The National Federation, which quickly formed, made it quite clear that men were the enemy.""

Perhaps some men are starting to realize they have lost the battle. Maybe the MRA signifies that more are realizing it is time to go to war.
 
They released a lot their footage from the University of Toronto MRA protests back in 2013 because there wasn't enough coverage. A lot of that footage has been used by others. That's probably where you've seen it.

I don't think that was it, it was connected to an article written by the woman who made it. It was like a condensed version of the documentary and it was titled "the red pill". But I can remember now that it spoke about the fact that the full documentary hadn't been released yet. I think it lasted about half an hour to an hour though so it definitely wasn't short, which was why in my head I'd already watched it as there were a lot of things discussed. I'd have to watch the full version to see the differences. But I mean this was literally going back years, way before the release date as it was before I went travelling, like over 3 years ago.

Oh my god, literally just remembered why I saw it. She hadn't finished it and had lost funding during the making of it. So her footage was posted as a plea to get more funding and to finish the documentary. It was done like a documentary but a fair bit was about her journey. So I've only watched the earlier footage before her previous funding ran out. I will have to watch the end result and see what she came up with. Forgive me, it's why I mentioned it was a while ago and my memory of it might not be perfect.
 
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollyw...er-feminist-beliefs-now-her-movie-is-at-risk/

A bit about her funding woes, written by Milo Yiannopoulos. Not a fan of Breitbart (or Milo). Here are Cassie Jaye's words...

"We weren’t finding executive producers who wanted to take a balanced approach, we found people who wanted to make a feminist film.”

“I started to see the bias towards women’s films and against men’s. There are no categories for men’s films though there are several for women and minorities. I submitted the film to human rights categories, and was rejected by all of them.”

“Films that support one side and act as propaganda do better than those that try to have an honest look. I won’t be getting support from feminists. They want a hit piece and I won’t do that. ”

“I started to invite feminists to be interviewed for the film, making up about 25 per cent of the interviews scheduled,”
she explains. “We had a popular feminist author who was scheduled to be in the film. After we drove down to Los Angeles, she cancelled the night before claiming she felt ‘unsafe.’”

“I’ve also had interns, including a gender studies major. One girl in particular had a lot of crying attacks and emotional experiences. She claimed everything I was showing her was triggering her.”


Based on her fundraising problems, Jaye says she realised, “There was no way to finish the film without a Kickstarter campaign,” a process she says she has found fascinating. She has found resistance, however: “People that are mistrustful and don’t know the message of the film, that this will be a balanced look at the issues.”

Another source of resistance, she says, are, “People who don’t know anything about the men’s rights movement. The most common reaction amongst feminists is, ‘why are you giving them a platform to speak?’ I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve heard that. Yet there are documentaries about the Westboro Baptist Church and about skinheads, yet they are so fearful of this topic, and I’ve started to figure out why.”




An extended preview from Cassie Jaye's youtube channel.
 
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Isabella, you are sharp and poignant, however as someone who was raised up by a female holocaust survivor I fail to see the connection in some of the analogies you made (not that I have ownership over the genocide topic, there are simply some aspects to it that are yet to be obvious or self explanatory, and I doubt if will ever be).
I think there are a lot of excellent points in your assertions, I just kind of lost you at some parts to be honest (maybe it's just me). There were too many good and interesting topics in one post, from crime, gender, deviance, rural life, urban life, abortions, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Each one of the topics you mentioned simply deserve a separate discussion thread in their own right, in my humble opinion that's all.
And once again I find myself writing long and vague sentences too. I'm not refuting what you said, I'm just admitting to be a beat confused.
 
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I've just been doing some research into some of the guys interviewed in this documentary who came across calm and collected. Some of the posts and articles they've written though are fucking disgusting. The defense being "it's satire", but yeah, it's not dark humour. It's messed up. Research "Paul Ellam" "a voice for men". There is nothing good or productive about these people, and it doesn't seem to be much to do with helping men gain rights. Which is sad because it only adds to men being taken less seriously when they voice issues they face. This movement is more to do with waging war against women/feminists than it is about helping men and women gain equality. This makes me sad as I really do feel that equality is something that would benefit all of us and that by fixing one you fix another. Rape and abuse for example is a problem that effects all of us, it's not "us versus them". It's just "us".

Isabella, you are sharp and poignant, however as someone who was raised up by a female holocaust survivor I fail to see the connection in some of the analogies you made (not that I have ownership over the genocide topic, there are simply some aspects to it that are yet to be obvious or self explanatory, and I doubt if will ever be).

Thank you for your complements Dan, I had a pretty bad headache when writing yesterday so no idea if any of it made sense. The connection to the holocaust deniers is that there is every bit of evidence that the holocaust happened, no one involved has denied it as far as I'm aware. The whole thing was documented, I mean literally so much evidence. So when people try to deny something like that it really takes a large element of blinding yourself because you don't want to believe it. The deniers are usually anti-Semitic so denying is for their own cause, I guess to try and make them feel less barbaric? The reason I compared it is that with men I have met who are the "red pill" types are big on denying things like rape/domestic violence/wage gap statistics, even in the face of evidence and figures. It's obviously two completely different areas, I was referring to the deliberate blindness of deniers rather than the holocaust itself.
 
The reason I compared it is that with men I have met who are the "red pill" types are big on denying things like rape/domestic violence/wage gap statistics, even in the face of evidence and figures. It's obviously two completely different areas, I was referring to the deliberate blindness of deniers rather than the holocaust itself.

Are you sure questioning things is the same as denial? This issue with statistics regarding rape/domestic violence/wage gap issues are either people are quoting numbers surveyed by the groups themselves which always have a flag of bias or there's no long term data to completely justify a statement on trending. The wage gap argument is questioned completely on which formula or data you use to calculate it. I've never heard anyone anywhere questioning that rapes don't happen however the rape statistics are at odds with general decreases in all violent crimes and that's been consistent for many years particularly in the US using government data with some regional exceptions (don't move to Chicago for safety for example).

As the lady producing this film says the statistics and information on the subjects are mostly being funding by those that wish to weaponize them. This is a fairly bad situation for anyone that has real interest in building real bridges to find common ground and really handle the issues.

It's very good she fought the temptation of taking money and having her work potentially corrupted and went with the crowdsourcing approach.
 
I've just been doing some research into some of the guys interviewed in this documentary who came across calm and collected. Some of the posts and articles they've written though are fucking disgusting. The defense being "it's satire", but yeah, it's not dark humour. It's messed up. Research "Paul Ellam" "a voice for men". There is nothing good or productive about these people, and it doesn't seem to be much to do with helping men gain rights. Which is sad because it only adds to men being taken less seriously when they voice issues they face. This movement is more to do with waging war against women/feminists than it is about helping men and women gain equality. This makes me sad as I really do feel that equality is something that would benefit all of us and that by fixing one you fix another. Rape and abuse for example is a problem that effects all of us, it's not "us versus them". It's just "us".



Thank you for your complements Dan, I had a pretty bad headache when writing yesterday so no idea if any of it made sense. The connection to the holocaust deniers is that there is every bit of evidence that the holocaust happened, no one involved has denied it as far as I'm aware. The whole thing was documented, I mean literally so much evidence. So when people try to deny something like that it really takes a large element of blinding yourself because you don't want to believe it. The deniers are usually anti-Semitic so denying is for their own cause, I guess to try and make them feel less barbaric? The reason I compared it is that with men I have met who are the "red pill" types are big on denying things like rape/domestic violence/wage gap statistics, even in the face of evidence and figures. It's obviously two completely different areas, I was referring to the deliberate blindness of deniers rather than the holocaust itself.


Wage gap is based on women compared to men and doesn't take that different jobs have different salaries.. But that is more of an employer not valuing certain job types more then the other. Men also tend to negotiate their salary more then women. Not to mention women take time off to have children, and it's society's pressure on the man to be the provider. I am not a red pill or MRA by any means.

You should seriously watch it. They really dive into wife on husbamd abuse. Please give it a chance.
 
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I'm so excited to watch this later! Thank you for posting this!
 
Oh god. I'm post more fucking Rubin Report.





off topic: god i love her shoes. so stinking cute.

Watched it all. I think her shoes suck.

I mentioned this documentary in the rape culture thread. Never would have watched it were it not for some of the ideas expressed there that I found appalling. As I said then, it mainly made me wonder why? Why have the things I have seen go on around me (and some lived through) been ok? Why have I given a nod of assent to feminism for so long, when it clearly wishes to exclude my experiences and observations from its statistical ivory tower edicts?

One thing I am grateful for is the fact that this documentary brought Erin Pizzey across my radar. Interesting character; I have enjoyed listening to her.

*************

Abortion. This has been an issue I have felt strongly about for a long time now. It has been one of the main considerations every time I have voted.

I started out in a religious cult. I was handing out anti-abortion material on the streets. My immediate group was appearing in national news coverage of abortion protests.

When I escaped that cult (mentally), I went the other direction. I looked at the science, I critiqued the propaganda I had been fed, I considered the other side, and I came to the conclusion that abortion should be legal.

Time to put that issue down. I no longer care. It is not my issue; it never was. It was forced on me by the religious, and I later felt compelled to consider women's issues when I voted. It is the way I was raised. No more.

*************

Rape and abuse for example is a problem that effects all of us, it's not "us versus them". It's just "us".
It is beginning to look to me like feminism is as well.


edit: after watching "The Red Pill" a month or so ago, I actually looked to see if there were any MRA groups in my local area. Curiosity. Want to see for myself if the media/internet-nuttiness is truly representative of them. None in my area.

Anybody ever been associated with any (irl I mean)?
 
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edit: after watching "The Red Pill" a month or so ago, I actually looked to see if there were any MRA groups in my local area. Curiosity. Want to see for myself if the media/internet-nuttiness is truly representative of them. None in my area.

Anybody ever been associated with any (irl I mean)?

I have friend who has contacted MRA groups for lawyer recommendations that could help him in his divorce with his abusive manipulative ex. They were able to help him locate a lawyer who mostly represent fathers in custody cases and gave any advice needed. Sadly there aren't a lot of resources or tools aimed towards men.
 


Any "feminist" who has listened to this, or any who can spare the time to listen, care to critique this for me?
It certainly paints "feminism" as a rapist doctrine.
 
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Wage gap is based on women compared to men and doesn't take that different jobs have different salaries.. But that is more of an employer not valuing certain job types more then the other. Men also tend to negotiate their salary more then women. Not to mention women take time off to have children, and it's society's pressure on the man to be the provider. I am not a red pill or MRA by any means.

You should seriously watch it. They really dive into wife on husbamd abuse. Please give it a chance.

The wage gap is a strange subject, people have all sorts of different reasons. I was interested in it so it is one of the area's I've studied and sifted through a lot of data. The issue is, the wage gap still exists when you account for the same jobs, same experience etc. An example is that more women graduate and graduate with higher grades, yet statistically they get paid less in their entry level jobs. A lot of companies now have a straight policy that everyone gets paid the same, especially with entry level. But I have noticed a difference in pay in several jobs comparing men to women even in low paid jobs. Sometimes speaking to a less experienced male co worker who came into a job after me was being paid more than me and other female co workers (but didn't ask for or request more). This has happened a couple of times. I know my boyfriend has frequently received a higher starting wage in jobs than I have though he's less experienced than me in those jobs. It's hard to say if this is due to gender, but the statistics do come out about the same when you take other potential causes into account and match people up. It's not something that's just being made up or is due to women having babies and taking time off work. Those elements I can understand, but there's no reason why before a woman having a baby that she's likely not being paid as much. It's not completely far fetched to come to the conclusion that there may be some discrimination going on. It's not huge, between 12 and 17% so you probably wouldn't notice it unless it were pointed out to you. And as you're not supposed to talk about your wages it's unlikely you'd ever find out if your male co worker is being paid slightly more.

You are right though that certain jobs which women now traditionally do have gone down in respect and wage bracket. This is understandable, when women started taking over these roles women weren't valued or respected and people took advantage of the cheaper labour. This idea has now clearly stuck with many jobs now traditionally associated with women which are lower paid. Anyways it's kind of off topic and I haven't got the energy to dig out my statistics and research and go through it, nor do I think anyone cares enough. People who don't believe it are unlikely to try to believe it.

It's good they go into domestic violence against men, it is important that men feel they can report it. I might watch the full documentary at some point but to be honest, after watching the first half of it, reading a bunch of different reviews and then looking up the people interviewed and some of the truly disgusting things they say away from the documentary (in which they come across as nice enough guys), I don't really trust it as a documentary.
These are some of the quotes from one of them rounded up by a site with the in context articles linked: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/10/18/paul-elam-of-a-voice-for-men-in-his-own-words/
Some of the stuff he says is really atrocious, and he clearly has some pretty serious issues. I'm not going to post it in here as honestly, some things you can't unsee. But this is why I say I am absolutely pro men having rights and fighting against domestic violence and male rape cases, but this is why I think a lot of MRA's are scum masking their hatred of women behind "men's rights". I don't like it when women do it in the name of feminism and I don't like it any more when men do it in the name of men's rights.

For men who are being abused, if you're in the UK here's a link with some information and the adviceline you can call: http://www.refuge.org.uk/get-help-now/help-for-men/men-are-abused-too/
It's hard to get away from domestic violence/abuse whether you're a male or female victim and it's important that men understand they don't deserve the abuse, nor will the police take it less seriously because they're male (at least in England). The process is difficult with both sexes, but men do have the same rights as women.
 
These are some of the quotes from one of them rounded up by a site with the in context articles linked: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/10/18/paul-elam-of-a-voice-for-men-in-his-own-words/
Some of the stuff he says is really atrocious, and he clearly has some pretty serious issues. I'm not going to post it in here as honestly, some things you can't unsee.
Paul Elam I have no real opinion about. His satire seems more intended to rile his opponents than amuse.

"Editorial note: in the early years of A Voice for Men, when it first started, deliberately inflammatory articles were often written in order to shake people out of their comfortable sensibilities and confront brutal realities they just did not want to see. This tiny handful of old articles is cited time and again by critics of the Men’s Human Rights Movement’s literature as “typical” and the sort of thing you see “all the time” or in a “steady stream,” when, rather tellingly, these are almost always articles at least a few years old and actually rather unusual."

That was taken from this article https://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/jury-duty-at-a-rape-trial-acquit/
I understand what the man is getting at in this piece. In the rape culture thread, I shared two instances where I saw this happen. Whose argument is going to carry more weight with me? An extremist like Paul Elam who sees the same threat for tyranny I do, or an extremist like IsabellaSnow who tells me these injustices should be ignored because they don't suit her doctrine?



I am not a Marxist, but I agree with the view that Marx gave a fairly competent critique of capitalism.

I am not a conservative. Certainly wouldn't buy a book entitled "The Ten Commandments: Still the Best Moral Code". But perhaps a fairly competent critique of the left can be found in the words of the equally nutty and authoritarian right.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442378/feminism-weak-women-equality-sameness-difference

"Feminism has created what is undoubtedly the weakest generation of women in American history."

"Yet we have a generation of young feminist women who are so weak that even if it is a woman who comes to their campus to argue, for example, that when all relevant factors are taken into account there is no gender wage gap, they seek the comfort of stuffed animals, balloons, and Play-Doh in “safe spaces.” They also need “trigger warnings” alerting them that they may read something that disturbs them."

"Modern feminists are afraid of life. They are afraid of differences of opinion, and especially afraid of men."


Broad generalizations to be sure. There is certainly some truth though. The question is, how much?

Some things you just can't unsee.
 
The issue is, the wage gap still exists when you account for the same jobs, same experience etc
If this is the case, this is illegal and they need to be prosecuted. I would love to know actual places that do this so they can be reported.; Please provide me an actual company that has done this in the past ten years that hasn't been prosecuted, charged, or whatever. Because all I see is people interpreting statistics to face value.

I mean by a woman having a baby, she takes time away from the business. Women tend to not work as late hours in career settings as men. Though this isn't always the case. Men are expected to put in more hours then women. Because of this, they are more up to promotions. There are way too many variables. And I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. I think it's just our human nature for women to make different life choices then men. Women tend to take more care taking or nurturing jobs where as men tend to take more risky or technical jobs. If that is one thing those statistics show is that.


You should really really watch it. They also interview extreme feminists.
 
The wage gaps is a worthy subject. It seems that in the entry level there's ostensibly some equality, however I encountered researches that stipulate that once you climb up the ladder of positions the gap reveals itself. When it comes to technical and risky jobs, I've met and worked for too many risk taking sales women, and met too many talented coder girls, not too mention freelancer web cam models on this forum. I can't say I'm as a feminist nor a chauvinist, what I can say is that we had Simone de Beauvoir in the library because it encouraged us to dare to think.
As for nurturing jobs, these are tough jobs. For instance the nurses I've met in the long expeditions with my old man in hospitals were tougher and resilient than most MMA fighters with regards to what they handle and go through.
 
As for nurturing jobs, these are tough jobs. For instance the nurses I've met in the long expeditions with my old man in hospitals were tougher and resilient than most MMA fighters with regards to what they handle and go through.

Agree. My husband is currently a CNA. And they deserve so much more then what they usually pay them. Taking care of someone is not an easy job. But it depends on how much the employer values them. I think it's easy to point the finger at sexism, and doesn't really solve underlying issues.
 
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Does this focus on mens rights and gender roles? Or is it bashing feminism? I actually believe strongly in mens rights and just roll it into feminism/need for gender neutrality. Will I get wound up or enjoy this thing? I need to plan my adult viewing time properly. :blush:
Please provide me an actual company that has done this in the past ten years that hasn't been prosecuted, charged, or whatever. Because all I see is people interpreting statistics to face value.
I don't think it's so much that women are purposely hired in to be paid less. It's more that women are not taught to value themselves in the workplace and advocate for themselves. Even though we're now making up tons of the workforce, we're still pushed to have the mentality of kept housewives and be seen as not needing to work. The things you listed -men are more likely to stay late -women take away from the business by having babies etc support that.

I can cite an example. My sister graduated hs in the top 10 of her class. She has a master's degree. At the advertising place where she works, she found out that a dude she trained for a job under her makes almost twice what she does. Why? He negotiated better. He sees himself as valuable and demanded to be paid as such. I told her to put her work together and ask for more money. She said "I'm not scheduled for a raise until next year". Like.... she had no idea that asking for more money is different that her scheduled raise. Still hasn't demanded more money. And, when I pushed her about it, she laughed at me, said my last real job was in a headshop and I don't know how it works. She'd rather be bitchy to me for trying to help her than follow normal business and risk looking like a bitch herself. :rolleyes:
 
Some of the big issues for post, post feminist culture for men is education disparities, violence against men, shortened life span (incl. self abuse/ body image issues, health issues, and high injury rates), and despair (things like lack of role models, sexual liberation, dissociation, and anxiety).

Issues such as access to our children and the lack of fairness at times that men suffered in transition to more equality are pretty much over. Men will now be able to focus on the real issues, problems we have have always had historically plus a few new ones that we have created recently.

I would agree with @IsabellaSnow that feminism and men's issues need not be related or compared. It is not a battle, we should help each other out where we can because some of these issues have very real consequences.

The Red Pill seems pretty superficial personally, very few concerns for myself or the men I know. For men health is our main issue, we do things that injure ourselves physically, emotionally, sexually, and psychologically.
Women tend to let us or even support us in this self abuse, this is where feminist discussion should be in regard to men; to where they can help us be less self destructive.
Usually it is where women hold on to traditional misogynistic stereotypes because it has advantaged them in the past. A big part of MRAs is exposing this part of feminism that won't give up the advantages that women have over men under the previous system of inequality.
 
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