Why has nudity been declining in American cinema?

[Guy]

Since 2010 there has been way less T&A in American films. What's the reason for this?

 

[zippypinhead]

Can you back that statement up with sourced facts?

Let's just say, for the sake of the conversation, that this is the case. I think it would be the result of many factors. This actually ties into my field of academic study, so I do have an opinion on the matter. Bullet points for brevity:

• American culture has been notably drifting deeper and deeper toward social conservatism in recent decades, but it has been especially accelerated since certain events that took place fifteen years ago. When looking at the prevailing attitudes of our popular culture, and the expressions that develop from those attitude, 2001 is a jarringly-distinct threshold.
• Over the last fifteen years, money has become a massively-strong force in areas the arts that had previously enjoyed more insulation. Money is inherently a conservative element. In order to gain and retain money, fewer chances tend to be taken when it comes to artistic expression.
• The first ten years of this cycle was a buildup, but at this point, I think we're seeing the results of this strong turn toward fiscal and social conservatism in the cinema especially. In order to maximize profits, the big studios and distributors try to produce content with the widest possible appeal and the easiest and quickest brand recognition. So, lots and lots and lots of PG-13 rated movies, the majority of which are pre-branded properties, like remakes, reboots, and adaptations.
  
• Along with all this, we can't forget the impact that the MPAA and other labeling agencies have over what we see in the end. And the MPAA is not particularly liberal or worried about artistic merit.
• This all results in (probably) less T&A in our movies, but we make up for it by eroticizing violence, to the point of having pornographic amounts of gore in even the most widely-distributed blockbuster movies. Because Amercians have always been weird about sex and violence.

It would be interesting to see if we actually are seeing less nudity in the cinema these days. My gut says it really is happening, in the same way that PG movies from the 80s could have swearing and even scenes of brief nudity in certain cases, but that shit wouldn't fly today, even at PG-13. It's also interesting to note that, as Hollywood tightens up its game, the decentralization of television programming has had an opposite effect, and there's more bare buns and swear words than there ever was, and everybody keeps calling this a "Golden Age of Television". We'll see how long that manages to keep up. And we'll see how long Hollywood can maintain its current course before a shakeup.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I stopped trying to make sense of what's culturally accepted in cinema a long time ago. Graphic violence = A-Okay. A female nipple = restrictions aplenty. Somewhat paradoxically though, I've noticed that filmmakers operating outside of the mainstream are getting away with more than they used to be able to. I remember not so long ago that any movie depicting real sex would be classified as pornography and wouldn't get past censors. Films like Nymphomaniac and Love seem to have passed censors unscathed though.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I feel like we are seeing a lot more male nudity than before. A wang in a main stream R rated movie was like a unicorn until recently, though never erect in full exposure still kinda cool to see male nudity exposed for art and profit more. I'm still getting used to it.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I stopped trying to make sense of what's culturally accepted in cinema a long time ago. Graphic violence = A-Okay. A female nipple = restrictions aplenty. Somewhat paradoxically though, I've noticed that filmmakers operating outside of the mainstream are getting away with more than they used to be able to. I remember not so long ago that any movie depicting real sex would be classified as pornography and wouldn't get past censors. Films like Nymphomaniac and Love seem to have passed censors unscathed though.

I wouldnt call it unscathed. The folks who determine ratings can make or break a film by simply rating it NC-17 instead of R, which is pretty well only really decided by sexuality shown. An NC-17 rating can mean bankruptcy

 

[mynameisbob84]

I wouldnt call it unscathed. The folks who determine ratings can make or break a film by simply rating it NC-17 instead of R, which is pretty well only really decided by sexuality shown. An NC-17 rating can mean bankruptcy

I guess that's true. It makes sense that it would be arthouse films that make use of real sex as well, I guess. A Lars Von Trier film isn't going to live or die on the strength of its box office performance.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Oh duh you said Outside of the mainstream... derp herp

I guess that's true. It makes sense that it would be arthouse films that make use of real sex as well, I guess. A Lars Von Trier film isn't going to live or die on the strength of its box office performance.

duh

 

[mynameisbob84]

Oh duh you said Outside of the mainstream... derp herp

duh

S'all good, yo. You're right about an NC-17 rating being death for most movies, innit.

 

[Guy]

Can you back that statement up with sourced facts?

Let's just say, for the sake of the conversation, that this is the case. I think it would be the result of many factors. This actually ties into my field of academic study, so I do have an opinion on the matter. Bullet points for brevity:

• American culture has been notably drifting deeper and deeper toward social conservatism in recent decades, but it has been especially accelerated since certain events that took place fifteen years ago. When looking at the prevailing attitudes of our popular culture, and the expressions that develop from those attitude, 2001 is a jarringly-distinct threshold.
• Over the last fifteen years, money has become a massively-strong force in areas the arts that had previously enjoyed more insulation. Money is inherently a conservative element. In order to gain and retain money, fewer chances tend to be taken when it comes to artistic expression.
• The first ten years of this cycle was a buildup, but at this point, I think we're seeing the results of this strong turn toward fiscal and social conservatism in the cinema especially. In order to maximize profits, the big studios and distributors try to produce content with the widest possible appeal and the easiest and quickest brand recognition. So, lots and lots and lots of PG-13 rated movies, the majority of which are pre-branded properties, like remakes, reboots, and adaptations.
  
• Along with all this, we can't forget the impact that the MPAA and other labeling agencies have over what we see in the end. And the MPAA is not particularly liberal or worried about artistic merit.
• This all results in (probably) less T&A in our movies, but we make up for it by eroticizing violence, to the point of having pornographic amounts of gore in even the most widely-distributed blockbuster movies. Because Amercians have always been weird about sex and violence.

It would be interesting to see if we actually are seeing less nudity in the cinema these days. My gut says it really is happening, in the same way that PG movies from the 80s could have swearing and even scenes of brief nudity in certain cases, but that shit wouldn't fly today, even at PG-13. It's also interesting to note that, as Hollywood tightens up its game, the decentralization of television programming has had an opposite effect, and there's more bare buns and swear words than there ever was, and everybody keeps calling this a "Golden Age of Television". We'll see how long that manages to keep up. And we'll see how long Hollywood can maintain its current course before a shakeup.

Im saying 2010 because thats when I started to hear/read about the decline. I dont think there has been an increase of social conservatism. The Untied States is a lot less religous than It used to be.

 

[zippypinhead]

Social conservatism is not the same as religiosity. A secular culture is perfectly capable of being socially conservative.

 

[zippypinhead]

I stopped trying to make sense of what's culturally accepted in cinema a long time ago. Graphic violence = A-Okay. A female nipple = restrictions aplenty. Somewhat paradoxically though, I've noticed that filmmakers operating outside of the mainstream are getting away with more than they used to be able to. I remember not so long ago that any movie depicting real sex would be classified as pornography and wouldn't get past censors. Films like Nymphomaniac and Love seem to have passed censors unscathed though.

I actually just watched a really interesting BBC documentary, called Dear Censor... about the history of the British Board of Film Classification, and it talked about exactly this. Really fascinating stuff.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Not sure it has anything to do with American morals, I think the largest reason is overseas distribution. Several countries simply don't allow it. A scene here or there can be edited out, but too much and it will just get banned. Or too much of it will be edited out and it won't make sense. China is the big one, but it's other Asian markets as well.

There's been several movies that would have just totally failed, yet the Asian market made more money than the American box office pulled in. Ghostbuster's is a good example of both failing. It was a flop in American release, but could have still made a profit overseas. That is until it was also banned in China. Not due to nudity, but other reasons. That pretty much ensured it was a box office failure.

Look at some of the other big budget movies.

Avengers: Age of Ultron. Did $459 million domestically. But foreign it made $946 million.
Captain America: Civil War. $408 million domestic, $745 million foreign.
Gravity. $274 million domestic, $449 million foreign.
Revenant. $183 million domestic, $349 foreign.
The Martian. $228 million domestic, $401 million foreign.
Django Unchained. $162 million domestic, $262 million foreign.
The Dark Knight Rises. $448 million domestic, $636 million foreign.
Interstellar. $188 million domestic, $487 million foreign.

The list can keep going on and on. The overwhelming percentage of well known movies made in America, have done a bigger portion of their income in foreign theaters. So those countries values have to play a part in the decisions. If you're producing a movie and you know a scene could offend a billion people who could buy tickets, or just get it outright banned from an entire country by their censors, you'd think twice before putting it in the movie.

 

[KylieJacobs]

Have you watched Netflix lately? I feel like every Netfix Original show that I watch all of the sudden turns into a porn! .... maybe it's just the shows that I've been picking though. I wouldn't mind, but it makes it difficult to watch shows/movies with my kids.

 

[MFCGod]

I feel like we are seeing a lot more male nudity than before. A wang in a main stream R rated movie was like a unicorn until recently, though never erect in full exposure still kinda cool to see male nudity exposed for art and profit more. I'm still getting used to it.

I remember a close up penis being shown in Game of Thrones last season

I don't mind male nudity but there was no context to the shot, just for shock value I guess

http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/16/21/480x240/placeholder_landscape-1464096551-penis-game-of-thrones.gif

 

[JoleneBrody]

I remember a close up penis being shown in Game of Thrones last season

I don't mind male nudity but there was no context to the shot, just for shock value I guess

http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/16/21/480x240/placeholder_landscape-1464096551-penis-game-of-thrones.gif

Exactly! It joins the ranks of the boob!

 

[MFCGod]

Exactly! It joins the ranks of the boob!

Hmm I don't know, I feel like it's different

It's the close up without context or reason that bothers me, id feel the same about a random close up shot of a vagina

I would equate a boob close up to being more like a mens 6pack close up, at least they're both aesthetically pleasing

I don't think anyone is enjoying seeing a flaccid penis and balls up close and personal

^ Well maybe people would be interested if it's a known character, that's a bit more salacious, but it was just a random extra

 

[zippypinhead]

The best theory I've heard about the rise of dicks being shown in popular entertainment is that they have natural comedic power. Also, the Wild West that the television and streaming landscape has become provides a perfect opportunity for "because we can" situations.

Not sure it has anything to do with American morals, I think the largest reason is overseas distribution. Several countries simply don't allow it. A scene here or there can be edited out, but too much and it will just get banned. Or too much of it will be edited out and it won't make sense. China is the big one, but it's other Asian markets as well.

There's been several movies that would have just totally failed, yet the Asian market made more money than the American box office pulled in. Ghostbuster's is a good example of both failing. It was a flop in American release, but could have still made a profit overseas. That is until it was also banned in China. Not due to nudity, but other reasons. That pretty much ensured it was a box office failure.

Look at some of the other big budget movies.

Avengers: Age of Ultron. Did $459 million domestically. But foreign it made $946 million.
Captain America: Civil War. $408 million domestic, $745 million foreign.
Gravity. $274 million domestic, $449 million foreign.
Revenant. $183 million domestic, $349 foreign.
The Martian. $228 million domestic, $401 million foreign.
Django Unchained. $162 million domestic, $262 million foreign.
The Dark Knight Rises. $448 million domestic, $636 million foreign.
Interstellar. $188 million domestic, $487 million foreign.

The list can keep going on and on. The overwhelming percentage of well known movies made in America, have done a bigger portion of their income in foreign theaters. So those countries values have to play a part in the decisions. If you're producing a movie and you know a scene could offend a billion people who could buy tickets, or just get it outright banned from an entire country by their censors, you'd think twice before putting it in the movie.

"To please the Asian market" has certainly become a popular refrain, and I do think it plays an influential role. There is no doubt that entertainment is a massive American export, and like I'd stated, Hollywood is trying to build movies with instant brand recognition and the broadest appeal possible, which mean global recognition and appeal. Market-specific edits are already a reality, though, and simply translating a movie means changing the material -- the nuances of language tend not to be very cross-compatible, after all, especially when it's something like converting English to Mandarin Chinese.

But that stated, it's still very much a reality that American sensibilities have also changed over the course of the last decade or two. This is how things go. Culture is pretty ephemeral, really, and I would say it isn't so much about morals as it is about sensibilities. I think if the American market was more keen to see more hard Rs in their local Cineplex, or even be more liberal in what material makes the cut, the money would flow that way, and we'd see that stuff on screen. As it is now, it seems to be that people in America are also mostly just fine handing Disney a billion dollars a year for Star Wars and Marvel movies because they prefer spectacle and adventure, and expect a lot of bang for their buck, rather than a lot of banging.

Or maybe tits are dead in Hollywood, and we find ourselves passing through a threshold into the Era of the Waggling Dong.

 

[fandango]

I think the thing about catering to the Chinese market is very important and Chinese culture is far more conservative than US culture, boobs and penises don't exist in China on TV or the internet. It is now the second largest market for Hollywood movies and it's exected to overtake the US over the next few years. Just look at how many big Hollywood movies now feature an act that is set in China or have a Chinese actor often seemingly shoehorned into a major yet non-leading role. There have been a few Marvel movies and the last Transformers movies just off the top of my head that have all ended up having big scenes in China.

Big studios don't really care about making good movies they are all about chasing the money. Film makers and directors are always talking about the artistic compromises they have forced upon them by the studios and they have no choice but to accept them otherwise they have no money to get their movies made.

2001 is a jarringly-distinct threshold.

What happened in 2001?

 

[zippypinhead]

What happened in 2001?

Jets crashed into tall buildings, and everyone lost their shit.

 

[AudriTwo]

Hmm I don't know, I feel like it's different

It's the close up without context or reason that bothers me, id feel the same about a random close up shot of a vagina

I would equate a boob close up to being more like a mens 6pack close up, at least they're both aesthetically pleasing

I don't think anyone is enjoying seeing a flaccid penis and balls up close and personal

^ Well maybe people would be interested if it's a known character, that's a bit more salacious, but it was just a random extra

Um you are crazy. Penises are aesthetically pleasing. You are just not in to them

 

[JoleneBrody]

Um you are crazy. Penises are aesthetically pleasing. You are just not in to them

I find it quite a little thrill in a movie! It's not the same as unsolicited dick pics from random internet strangers, which is NOT my thing more because it is so personally invasive. Movies take that personal assault feeling out of it for me so I can enjoy the aesthetically pleasing wang. (not all wangs shots fall under this category obviously.)

 

[Guy]

Jets crashed into tall buildings, and everyone lost their shit.

I dont think that 9/11 is what caused the decline of nudity in American cinema. I remember there being a lot of T&A in American movies back in 2007.

 

[Guy]

Have you watched Netflix lately? I feel like every Netfix Original show that I watch all of the sudden turns into a porn! .... maybe it's just the shows that I've been picking though. I wouldn't mind, but it makes it difficult to watch shows/movies with my kids.

There are actually soft porn movies in Netflix's DVD library.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Slightly off topic, but a question...

It has been my experience that an unexpected porn penis usually causes disgust in women, while an unexpected penis in less smutty ventures often provokes laughter. Why is this?

 

[zippypinhead]

I dont think that 9/11 is what caused the decline of nudity in American cinema. I remember there being a lot of T&A in American movies back in 2007.

I'm not saying "9/11 = no tits in movies." It's a lot more complex than that. I'm talking about a holistic shift in attitudes, with that event acting as a catalyst for the change. Read art criticism and film review from 2000 vs. 2002, and you can see what I mean. An air of optimism and exuberance coming from a highly productive economic boom in the 90s and leading into a new millennium was instantly replaced with pessimism and uncertainty, which mainstream entertainment has been catering to since then. For example, there have been a lot of interesting essays written in recent years examining the idea that superheroes have gained such massive popular appeal because (at least as they exist now) they are potent conservative icons that represent a strong force for order and protection and simplified identity politics in the face of the chaos of globalization and the decline of the nation state.

But again, that's only part of the equation. Economic conservatism is just as much at play here. We're already talking about the effect that the opening of the Asian market, and all the money it brings to the table, has had on the movie industry, and that's just one example of what's at work in this. One thing that's really interesting to look at is the impact that the banking crisis of 2008 has had on the arts since. Copious amounts of money have flooded into arts and entertainment because, whether true or not, these industries are seen as immune to the types of bubbles that ruin economies and make investors sad. Personally, I don't think anything that's open to speculative trading is immune to bubbles, but time will tell. At any rate, movies have always been big-money business, so the effect that all this safehouse investing from outside is far more subtle than fine art, for example, which has changed massively because of this new influx commodity investing. However, the impact is there. It's already been said by several people in this thread that the big studios -- which themselves are all just arms of multinational communications megacorporations -- are more concerned with products that are profitable than they are concerned with artistic concerns. That is the conservative force of money at work. And if the money says jiggly parts aren't profitable, they aren't gonna be in the movies.

So, now you have two major events to look at as far as the social and economic thresholds that have caused less movie nudity. I also recall the mid-00s being a time where several differently-rated versions were produced for different types of consumption. Lots of DVD "theatrical" versions vs. "unrated" versions with contextless titties added in. That doesn't seem to be as prevalent anymore, but maybe that's more owing to the rise of streaming services, which is a whole other part of the discussion.

 

[n_i_c_u]

I own 3 movies with penis in them (beside the porn) since "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" came out and I have to say that this is a revolution. Not sure what has changed in the R/NC-17 ratings department but it is amazing. Maybe some hard-lined censors died and they were replaced with people that don't mind penis (cause if one is anti-penis, like, how do you change your opinion)? It is often seen as a humorous device and actually means something to the scene. If you think about it It is kinda funny looking and takes the scene to a new level. It is different and more daring from the boobie shots (more 80s cinema when boobs were just thrown in for fun and they were almost everywhere) or the bush shots in that it is more "out there" and humorous and less inclined to provoke feelings beside humor.

Not sure if there is a first erect penis in movies but that might be a game-changer if it hasn't been done yet. I've never seen the cooter up close and personal though in movies, so, maybe the hanging penis is a just sort of a thing to be used as humor. Not sure if society is advanced enough to laugh at an erect penis (jeez, this world is stilll stuck on religious stuff and skin color so who knows).

I am for it all. I really don't care. It is funny and somewhat interesting stuff though.

 

[zippypinhead]

There have been plenty of erect penises, and even actual sex in non-pornographic movies. It's not stuff that makes it too far out of the art house, but yes, erections, blowjobs, and even full fucking all have a presence in cinema history.

 

[MFCGod]

Um you are crazy. Penises are aesthetically pleasing. You are just not in to them

Flaccid ones?

Id like to think I can take the sexuality out of the human body and look purely at aesthetics

I can appreciate if a man has a nice physique, stomach, arms, legs, back, ass, those body parts can all look great

I can see also see a case being made for an erect penis, but floppy they look pretty sad

^ But I suppose people can like feet and hands and I'm totally neutral to them being appealing (all though they can look bad)

 

[AudriTwo]

Flaccid ones?

Id like to think I can take the sexuality out of the human body and look purely at aesthetics

I can appreciate if a man has a nice physique, stomach, arms, legs, back, ass, those body parts can all look great

I can see also see a case being made for an erect penis, but floppy they look pretty sad

^ But I suppose people can like feet and hands and I'm totally neutral to them being appealing (all though they can look bad)

I happen to think my husband's flaccid penis is beautiful.

Spoiler: beautiful flaccid peens

http://bestsoftcock.tumblr.com/

 

[Nordling]

I feel like we are seeing a lot more male nudity than before. A wang in a main stream R rated movie was like a unicorn until recently, though never erect in full exposure still kinda cool to see male nudity exposed for art and profit more. I'm still getting used to it.

First time I saw a penis in a mainstream movie was in Ghost Story (1981), when Craig Wasson fell out of a window, and we saw it flap in the breeze.