Gun Control?

[Beach_Love]

Just finished watching the episode of Ross Kemp's Extreme World where he shows what's going on down in New Orleans (post Katrina, crime, etc.). Great show and always liked Ross and his documentaries, but there was a segment in the program that really troubled me. He goes to a gun show where it certainly appears that the majority of attendees were law abiding citizens there to legally purchase firearms for home defense, hunting (lot of dudes in camo), target practice, etc. Ross is really down on the whole thing and ends the segment by saying "Why these American citizens feel the need to arm themselves with military assault weapons I will never understand".

The very next segment he interviews two gang members, both of whom were armed/openly displayed handguns during the interview. These two unapologetic socio/pyschopaths declare that if they want something they're going to take it (one looks at Ross and says "you might have something I want") and that it's as easy to obtain an illegal gun as it is to buy a cold drink.

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Gun Control? You can guess what mine are.

 

[AllisonWilder]

I like guns. I've been shooting them for years, although I don't personally own one at this time.

I wish that guns only fell into the hands of people that use them properly, but unfortunately, that's just not the case. There's always going to be a way to illegally obtain a firearm (whether someone wants to buy it from someone else or they steal it from someone else), no matter how strict laws get.

 

[AmyLemon]

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Gun Control? You can guess what mine are.

Gun Control is a pretty broad concept and actually I didn't get a really good sense of where you stand on the subject from your post Beach? I know it's not a "do you heart gun control?" "or can gun control suck your balls?" question but I didn't actually infer much from your post!

Ross is really down on the whole thing and ends the segment by saying "Why these American citizens feel the need to arm themselves with military assault weapons I will never understand".

Even following up with the case-in-point tale of the hoodlums-with-handguns-gunnatakeyershit example I still (from the perspective of a Canadian) wonder why any private citizen would need a military assault weapon in their arsenal. Granted I totally recognize that I live in a very different Country and if I were ever going to get into a gunfight in Canada there's a 99% chance it would be a shotgun to shotgun faceoff and nobody would be bringing a handgun or weapon capable of firing 30 rounds a minute to the party, so yeah, I'm very aware that there's a difference in our two Countries climates when it comes to guns.

PS: I have taken the courses and gotten the ticket, I can legally own a gun in my country so I'm not approaching this from a "no guns for anyone" perspective!

 

[Bocefish]

Proper gun control is very important.

*Solid, comfortable body position
*Breathe
*Sight Picture
*Squeeze

When I buy my island, it will be surrounded by these.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2011/02/14 ... =187406842

 

[Kradek]

I still (from the perspective of a Canadian) wonder why any private citizen would need a military assault weapon in their arsenal

Bigger and badder is better. You'll pry my 3500 sq. ft. home, my 60" HDTV, and my hummer from my cold dead fingers.

Sarcasm aside, I don't think anyone wants an assault weapon because they want to protect themselves, I think you want an assault weapon, because, fuck yeah, look at my big ass gun!

 

[southsamurai]

boce said it best really. america is the home of the gun. its not a thing we can get rid of in a country our size.and honestly? we shouldnt. as much as i dislike violence of that kind (random and uncontrolled) getting rid of guns wont get rid of violence, just change its nature. and speaking for my crippled up self that cant properly fight anymore i want an equalizer. the only reason i dont have a .50 ( or decent long range sniper set up), a shotgun and a good assault rifle in my possession is cash. mind you, that right there is the list in its entirety of what i would want to add in to the handguns i currently own. one super long range wall buster, a meduim range street sweeper and a wide range clearing device. not because i think ill ever actually need them or use them in reality, but because of insurance. if the shit ever does really hit the fan im gunna be stuck where i am i anyway. i wont last long as i am now, but i want to make sure that whoever comes after me pays a heavy price.

 

[bob]

I like guns. I've been shooting them for years, although I don't personally own one at this time.

I wish that guns only fell into the hands of people that use them properly, but unfortunately, that's just not the case. There's always going to be a way to illegally obtain a firearm (whether someone wants to buy it from someone else or they steal it from someone else), no matter how strict laws get.

absolutely...and the constitutional concept behind gun ownership in america makes this realization a great place to begin.
the flintlock fowler isn't an assault rifle.
and a portable missile launcher isn''t an assault rifle...i'm sure both of them can be purchased somewhere....it's just harder to get the ammunition for a portable missile launcher.

the point being that allowing us to arm ourselves with the intent of preserving our right to rise up against and defend our freedoms has to have some limits, in my opinion -perhaps on the ability to obtain ammunition for certain hand held weapons.....but Justice Scalia, considered to be either a right wing fanatic, or a deeply profound constitutional lawyer, has left question of the legality vis a vis portable missile launchers wide open.

to me...that personal opinion of his is a tough pill to swallow....but it also puts the responsibility for the issue of gun control exactly where it belongs....it's a violation of the intent of the second amendment to allow the federal government to mandate a legal interpretation regarding gun control.

it falls on us to interpret it...and we still have the right to amend the constitution, if we feel it's important enough....regarding this issue, it would seem to be an issue of our willingness to control ourselves, if you will...a simple recognition that being a responsible gun owner has to include taking some responsibility to limit arming those who care less about the rule of law than even the most fervent supporter of the NRA....

and that's the finger that Scalia is pointing, imo.

 

[Beach_Love]

Just wanted to test the waters and see what everyone's views were on the subject now that the smoke from the tragedy in Colorado has cleared.

My stand on Gun Control: every adult American citizen should be able to purchase a firearm provided they pass an extensive background check, there should be a mandatory waiting period absent a demonstrated urgent need (i.e. my psycho ex has threatened to kill me), there should be limits on the # of weapons an individual should be able to own (no stockpiling), and there should be some sort of test you have to pass to demonstrate that you are at least aware of basic firearm safety.

I worry that we are heading for a reality where only criminals are going to have access to firearms.

 

[ScarletVixen]

I kind of wish a mental health/stability check was mandatory as well before being allowed to own a gun, maybe slide it in there inbetween the background check and the waiting period.

 

[Bocefish]

Even following up with the case-in-point tale of the hoodlums-with-handguns-gunnatakeyershit example I still (from the perspective of a Canadian) wonder why any private citizen would need a military assault weapon in their arsenal.

In regards to the assault rifle or evil black guns issue... I find a lot of people not real familiar with guns can be a bit misinformed. This video is a little dated, but hope it will clear up some false perceptions.



Have you ever fired an AR-15? They're great for hunting wolves, yotes, rodents and for home protection. They also come in .308 caliber for larger game.

 

[Bocefish]

Too late to edit the above post, but these are the same Ruger 22 caliber weapon, they fire exactly the same (semi-auto) bullet but one is has evil black parts

 

[Beach_Love]

Honestly, if the need for home defense arises as long as I'm able to purchase a Remington MARINE MAGNUM along w/ the required accesories I could give a fuck what this countries gun laws are. Ended up hanging out on this dude's farm in Costa Rica who had one just like the one in the pic. I would buy a bunch of .00 at the hardware store and go up to his place in the hills and we would get high as lab rats and just fuck shit up. Blasting coconuts off trees shooting from the hip, good times.

 

[GreatDane]

I have been called one of them "crazy survivalists" at one point or another, I have a rather extensive collection of different firearms and not afraid to use them if needed. On that note, on my gotta have for my property in the near future will include one of these

we build these in a few different styles and layouts and they are supplied with a bit of armor and are self contained for field use if needed.
Gun control is the desire to make weapons regulated in the hands of those that actually care about the laws... for the record, I have yet to meet a criminal that worried that much about any laws pertaining to gun control.
You always hear about the few people that shoot others, you never hear about the MILLIONS of gun owners that haven't shot anyone to date.

 

[16_bit]

Ross is from the UK where guns aren't freely available like in the US so it could be said his view is a little bias. I'm from the UK and i won't pretend to understand what it's like to have the rights to buy firearms, i'll just give my view.

At the end of the day, a gun is just a gun and it is not good or bad. People are good or bad and it's how they use a gun that dictates if it's good or bad, just like a knife. Guns aren't available in the UK but there's still plenty of shootings and gun crime so not selling them doesn't work.
To his comment of "Why these American citizens feel the need to arm themselves with military assault weapons I will never understand" - who knows what each person is doing with each gun they buy. They might be a collector, hunter or feel safer having a more effective weapon, whether it be power or rate of fire. And how does he know that every citizen wants a military assult weapon? Is he just generalising based on the little he saw or saying it just for the show? And at what point does a gun become a military assult weapon and not just your average householder gun?

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I have a rack of rifles and a couple of handguns. I have a CCW. I believe in the the right to bear arms

I also think we need gun control, waiting periods, background checks, registrations, required gun safety classes, and a lot of other very aggressive controls and regulations on the sale and ownership of firearms.

Not prohibition, or taxation to make it impossible to get a gun. Just cheap, simple and free things to make sure if you buy one over the counter, you damn sure know what your doing is serious shit.

And if you buy an illegal one off the back of a truck or, from a crackhead, you need locked up.
If you kill someone with that same gun, you need the death penalty. So does the fucktard who sold it to you.

Make the offenses few but make them capital offenses. Pull an illegally obtained weapon on me? Go to prison for 20 yrs. Pull the trigger, go to the gas chamber in 5. No excuses.

Everyone has the right to own a gun with as little red tape as possible tied to it.
Nobody has the right to commit a crime with one.

 

[theguitarrist]

I'm not from the US. It's difficult for me to understand the culture around guns here.

In my country, if you want to buy a weapon you must request authorization to the authorities. Basically, you need a clean record.
If you want to transport the weapon (like, in a box), you also must ask for authorization.
If you want to carry a weapon with you, you need a special authorization.
Civilians can only buy revolvers, semi automatic guns and repeating rifles.

Culturally, in my country, people think that having guns at home is dangerous.

 

[bud9752]

does anyone remember the riots in LA after the rodney king incident.
the only way people were able to defend themselves was if they had a gun, the waiting period put a lot of people on the short end of the stick. The police in LA weren't able to mount any kind of a response because they were outnumbered by the thugs and looters. the citizens of LA were on their own in respect to self defense. THATS WHY YOU MUST TAKE THE INITIATIVE AND BE PREPARED TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND YOUR PROPERTY. If guns are banned then only criminals will have guns and the populace will be at their mercy.
I believe in gun control - GUN CONTROL - MEANS BEING ABLE TO HIT YOUR TARGET.

unarmed people are SUBJECTS - armed people are CITEZENS

:twocents-02cents:

 

[sweetiebatman]

does anyone remember the riots in LA after the rodney king incident.
the only way people were able to defend themselves was if they had a gun, the waiting period put a lot of people on the short end of the stick. The police in LA weren't able to mount any kind of a response because they were outnumbered by the thugs and looters. the citizens of LA were on their own in respect to self defense. THATS WHY YOU MUST TAKE THE INITIATIVE AND BE PREPARED TO DEFEND YOURSELF AND YOUR PROPERTY. If guns are banned then only criminals will have guns and the populace will be at their mercy.
I believe in gun control - GUN CONTROL - MEANS BEING ABLE TO HIT YOUR TARGET.

unarmed people are SUBJECTS - armed people are CITEZENS

:twocents-02cents:

Personally, I think thats a bit of a weak argument, There are riots all over the world and have been for years. Belfast for example has seen sporadic violence for years and years but their people remain unarmed and there are very rarely fatalities, down in most part to the fact that not just anyone can own a gun. In fact most of your argument does not stand up to any kind of factual scrutiny, Gun crime in the USA is amongst the highest in the developed world

AS an outsider, The gun "control" laws (and I use the word control very loosely) to me seem archaic and have no place in a modern civilised society. The only people who should have guns should be people trained to do so (i.e Police marksmen)

I do concede however that a blanket ban on Guns somewhere where, rightly or wrongly there are a way of life would be nigh on impossible so some sort of balance should be found, Much much more stringent controls perhaps?

 

[sweetiebatman]

I have a rack of rifles and a couple of handguns. I have a CCW. I believe in the the right to bear arms

I also think we need gun control, waiting periods, background checks, registrations, required gun safety classes, and a lot of other very aggressive controls and regulations on the sale and ownership of firearms.

Not prohibition, or taxation to make it impossible to get a gun. Just cheap, simple and free things to make sure if you buy one over the counter, you damn sure know what your doing is serious shit.

And if you buy an illegal one off the back of a truck or, from a crackhead, you need locked up.
If you kill someone with that same gun, you need the death penalty. So does the fucktard who sold it to you.

Make the offenses few but make them capital offenses. Pull an illegally obtained weapon on me? Go to prison for 20 yrs. Pull the trigger, go to the gas chamber in 5. No excuses.

Everyone has the right to own a gun with as little red tape as possible tied to it.
Nobody has the right to commit a crime with one.

Paulie, you are a sensible gun advocate in a sea of absolute idiots :lol:

I salute you, and your common sense views!

 

[Beach_Love]

I have been called one of them "crazy survivalists" at one point or another, ...we build these in a few different styles and layouts and they are supplied with a bit of armor and are self contained for field use if needed

A decade ago I'd have said what a paranoid kook, now I applaud your foresight and business sense.

 

[Beach_Love]

Ross is from the UK where guns aren't freely available like in the US so it could be said his view is a little bias.

I almost wonder if he wasn't being ironic. You would have to have seen the gang bangers he was interviewing to understand. These kids "weren't playin". They were career criminals, each w/ multiple felonies, etc. exactly the sort of people you need to protect your home against. I could see them hopping in a car and going to a nice neighborhood to commit a home invasion just as easy as going to McDonalds. I would not be surprised if both of them had killed at least one person. I get the feeling that what stops them from going to commit these home invasions is the fact that since it is very easy to lawfully obtain firearms in Louisiana there is a very good chance they could end up hearing a pump shotgun get cocked and no one sticks around to hear it go in the words of Cypress Hill "BOO YA". Someone once told me why shotguns are used in Prisons/riot control. Guy next to you takes a round to the shoulder and it's like in the movies, not good but not bad enough to make you and maybe even him stop. You see the guy next to you get hit w/ a load of pellets and it is immediate SHOCK AND AWE he is so fucked up and if you don't puke first you run in the opposite direction. Handguns are not easy to shoot well let alone under pressure, shotguns are idiot proof (they don't call them street sweepers for nothing). They are also extremely easy to reload especially if you practice. Criminals know this, so as long as I can legally get my hands on a Pistol Grip Pump if I need to I will sleep well at night.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

A shotgun at close range is not a street sweeper, you can easily miss. The shot pattern of a 12ga at 10-15 feet away is only about 4". if you got the wrong load like a long range buffered shot load, at 20 feet you're gonna have a really tight pattern, less than 3".

You have to choose a short barrel, a wide open choke and a light shot load with no buffer in the shell.
Even then, you're talking about a 6" pattern at 15-20 feet. In a house, in an average sized room you'll be at point blank range and you'll have to hit someone dead center to really fuck them up.

and, then you have a mess on your hands. 00 buckshot will rip the fuck out of someone, and at worst, you half miss and give them a few seconds to blow your brains out.

Don't put so muuch faith in a shotgun, you still have to practice with it, get familiar with how it patterns with different shells and different distances.

Within 15 feet, most all loads and barrel lengths are going to have a small pattern.... so you have to aim and aim good.

So, if you take into account that you have a 6" margin of error if you aim at the center mass of a persons chest to make a fatal hit, you're probably better off with a snob nose 38 and a few hours a year on a range keeping your point and hit skills good enough to pop a hole in human heart sized target 25 feet away.
Which unless you have the tourettes syndrome or the palsy, anyone can do.
:lol:

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

so as long as I can legally get my hands on a Pistol Grip Pump if I need to I will sleep well at night

I dunno. I'd rather have 6- 8" of pistol in my hand than 24" of pipe in both hands. Even a short riot gun can be a pain in the ass to hold position and shoot in a confined space.

If you can hit a target with a .38, you really dont need a 12ga cannon to do the same damage.

 

[GreatDane]

I have been called one of them "crazy survivalists" at one point or another, ...we build these in a few different styles and layouts and they are supplied with a bit of armor and are self contained for field use if needed

A decade ago I'd have said what a paranoid kook, now I applaud your foresight and business sense.

They are designed mostly for the military to use as barracks and office space in the field where there may be some hostile intent to the soldiers. The armor that we use will withstand direct fire from anything up to an AK-47 (7.62 round) without damage to the armor. The windows on the unit is also armored glass, almost 3" thick and a bit on the heavy side.

We have regulations that we have to follow when we install the armor plating and it's not a cheap process but it is worth it if you know that you are going to be in that type of environment. I may not have been able to enlist but I will do everything in my power to make sure that the soldiers can have a safe place to sleep without worry of random fire that could penetrate the walls of the tents that they are currently using with cement walls put into place nearby.

 

[southsamurai]

paulie is tha man! guy has some serious overall gun knowledge! i learned stuff from his way of telling that i hadnt thought about before. one point in the favor of shotguns as home protection that he didnt mention because of their lack of precision is the intimidation factor. the sound of a shotgun racking a round, the sight of the long open barrel is enough to make most people think twice before continuing their ill intent. of course the same can be said of any handgun being racked as well, but most people keep one in the chamber ready for use, and if its a revolver theres no slide to make noise.

of course none of that is going to do more than slow down someone whose intent is violence and harm. a determined intruder bent on killing, injuring or otherwise doing harm is probably armed as well. and since they intend to use their weapon the intimidation factor goes out the window.

i agree that a decent handgun is probably the overall best choice for home defense. portability, the wide range of calibers available and the inherent short range accuracy that one can train easily to is much better than an adrenaline based 6 inch pattern from most shotguns. something about a handgun requiring target practice gives an edge when adrenaline hits your body.
the one time ive fired inside a building for defense (not my own home strangely enough) i hit what i was aiming at despite the massive adrenaline surge. had it been a shotgun that i practice much less with than my trusty .45? even if all of the pellets had hit i dont know if it would have done what i was wanting it to. namely knocking the guy on his ass and making sure he didnt get back up before i disarmed him. ive seen animals run after getting hit with a shotgun blast to the chest. ive never seen one go more than a few steps with a rifle round through the heart.

 

[16_bit]

Ross is from the UK where guns aren't freely available like in the US so it could be said his view is a little bias.

I almost wonder if he wasn't being ironic. You would have to have seen the gang bangers he was interviewing to understand. These kids "weren't playin". They were career criminals, each w/ multiple felonies, etc. exactly the sort of people you need to protect your home against.

He could well have meant it ironically. I know of the show and have seen it advertised on tv here frequently so i have a part understanding of what happens. I don't have an issue with protecting your own home, and i wouldn't have thought Ross would after viewing the things he has. It's just the one statement he made about military issue weapons that is weird, that term.

 

[Beach_Love]

Such awesome replies. Love to get together w/ all the posters for a beer LOL. GD, keep up the good work. PW I am not gonna pretend I know 1/2 what you do about guns. At the same time having considered what you said at length my vote still is for the pistol grip pump Remington Marine Magnum. The deterrent factor alone is enough for it to win my vote, and that particular gun in that configuration is a pleasure to shoot. One of the things I like about the 12 gauge is the versatility. Ultimately I would prefer not to harm or kill anyone, so I think would load a blank or two followed by a bunch of bean bag rounds. A long time ago I watched a "freeway chase" on TV here end w/ the cops bean bagging the shit of this tweaker, it was awesome.

 

[Beach_Love]

Totally forgot where I first saw/heard of the Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Growing up in New England I had the world's best step-uncle, totally into guns, cars, etc. He was and is a boat mechanic, and he showed me one when I was 15? that he bought for a friend who was capt. of this rich family's yacht/sailboat. The guy wanted it for protection on the boat for when they were down in the Caribbean. That and a bitching crossbow in case he ever had to give the gun up to customs while they were in port, etc.