Control Freak

[Redone]

In the last few months i have become good friends with an mfc model who has stopped camming recently but we keep in touch. She is also friends with another member on mfc who she met online in a chatroom about 2 years ago and they have a sub dom relationship with her being the sub but she is also married. Earlier today i had a pm chat on mfc with the guy she has been friends with for 2 years and found out some stuff that i find disturbing and wrong. First of all this guy thinks and acts like he is her geniune boyfriend and that he OWNS her and has as much rights as her hubby he told me as much. Also he makes her ask his permission in almost everything she does including in choosing her friends and who she can and can't talk to and that included her having to ask him if we could be friends and she could talk to me and stuff on yahoo. This guy seems to think this is all part of sub dom and remember she is married. Obviously this is terribly wrong and i couldn't believe what i was reading when he was typing telling me. They have never met in person before but they are planning to meet up for the first time in the next few months. I was wondering what everyone else thought of this cuz i really don't know what to make of the situation and im concerned for her if they meet up, and i was even wondering whether i should take the matter further. Thanks in advance.

 

[Sevrin]

First of all, I think it would be a bad idea to meet this guy. Secondly, it is impossible to know whether she views the relationship in the same way that she does. A lot of this could just be in his head. In any case, if I were you, I would send her the full text of your conversation with this fellow and leave it to her to draw her own conclusions and decide how to proceed.

 

[Jupiter551]

lol that dude sounds crazy!
Also we need a "Dear Amber" column for the people who come and start a thread asking for some random MFC related advice/discussion as their first post

:violence-stickwhack: why are the no emoticons for crazy? surely it's more useful than the diablo emotes lol

 

[Rosemary]

D/s relationships are pretty complex and I would hope your ex-model friend has the head to be as safe as possible. I agree with sending her the convo. Who knows if she is a swinger and they have all discussed this? With some things about ourselves we may be a little vague on the details with friends. My own D/s relationship I rarely go into full detail even in my mfc room (my 'closet') because it's a bit different from the typical setup and I don't want people to give me a hard time regarding it or give me their :twocents-02cents:.

I guess from the perspective of someone involved in kink this does not sound totally off. Your wording conveys concern and like this situation is wrong, and I don't know it may totally be off, but the dynamic of husband/wife/Dom is not alien to me, nor is the idea that the Dom holds a degree more 'control' over choices, etc. I will say that it is not uncommon for me to see a Dom determine friends, etc., but that is also her decision to sub in that way.

At the very least, the copied convo will reveal much to your friend and she can make her decision from there.

 

[Redone]

The thing is i deleted my premium account a couple of weeks ago and only rejoined as a basic cuz i was getting concerned about things so it will not have archived the convo. But it was obvious that he was getting off on telling me that he had given her his permission to add me on yahoo and that he could cam with her for free and i could not cuz he was her boyfriend, and she has to ask his permission to skype. When i confronted him about trying to control her life he then tried to deny it then when i said 'but you have just said x' he started getting very abusive. I know what you are saying about swingers but they have never met, he is just some guy online trying to run her life. And who does he think he is saying whether i can or can't be friends with her?

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

I think the point you are missing here is she may LIKE this relationship. Subs like to be dom'ed. You have no idea if she is enjoying this relationship or not.

Just because the Dom/Sub thing is something you do not enjoy or agree with does not mean that this is an unhealthy online friendship.

Umm a lot of cam girls are married and have unorthodox relationships with their members. How do you know her hubs isn't aware of this situation and just fine with it?

 

[Sevrin]

MFC may be able to recover your account, but you should act quickly. They don't actually delete them immediately.

 

[Rosemary]

Hmm...well I hope you're able to get your acct. I know it seems unfair that he is controlling you, in a way, by controlling her. I wonder if this all bothered you before you knew he was saying yay/nay on being friends? It sounds as if you guys had spoken more than once, so I'm assuming you had some idea of their relationship?

Either way, without some hard evidence, I guess the best thing would be to either let it go or just voice your concerns once and only once (I have people go on and on and on about how they disapproved of my relationship and it got annoying). Something that does not point the finger at any party, but instead just says, "Hey, I have this concern, maybe you could give me your opinion on it?" and mention that you don't like that he is choosing her friends for her and maybe get her opinion on it? If she likes it, then there is nothing you can do and you need to back off and let things unfold. It is VERY hard to predict where things are going, but at the very least you can say that you put your foot in the door, said your peace, and that is really all you can do when two consenting adults engage in activities.

I had a similar experience where the girl was being told when she could eat. It was all fine and dandy, but she would literally not eat a thing unless he told her to and the days where she barely ate at all were becoming too numerous. I approached it with this:

"X, I have a small concern and I hope you'll hear me out this one and only time. I do not agree with how little you are eating. Have you both discussed the effects of a low cal, nutritionally deprived diet? I am concerned because you say you are hungry a lot and you have lost quite a bit of weight. Let me know your thoughts in case I am missing something? Consider this a friend looking out for another friend."

She explained to me her submissive side and yadda yadda, so I stepped back. My only request was that she not talk about the food deprivation with me because it made me uncomfortable. So maybe doing the same for you model friend may help? If not, you may want to cut ties before getting too emotionally involved (which, no offense, it seems like you already are)!

In the end my friend and the dom parted ways and she's gone back to a healthy weight and has apologized for being so 'absorbed' that she couldn't see what was happening but that my note had opened her eyes a little.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Controlling her friends can be a red flag. Isolating her can be a red flag. If her husband doesn't know - super red flag.

BUT ... what you describe, like several other people say, does not sound necessarily off. She may LIKE that kind of relationship.

A good Dom will ultimately have her interests at heart, and all his decisions will be in favor of her growth etc. There will be trust between them that she will trust his decisions are best for her even if she dislikes them. If there is a healthy bond and trust between two people, this kind of relationship and control can be very healthy and just what some people need in their lives...

I guess bottom line is it doesn't see like there is enough information here. I would encourage her to learn more about the BDSM community, if she doesn't already, and to be very very safe when it comes to meeting this guy.

my 2c.

The post above mine describes a relationship that sounds abusive. Food deprivation can be very abusive. It's an example of a NEED that is not being met. Submissives have the right to have their needs met by their Dom, or they should walk. That simple. Needs include emotional needs and physical needs. Eating proper nutrition is a basic human right.

In the case that rosemary describes, I would not personally have backed off. That would be an example of when I would step in, for her saftey.

 

[Rosemary]

The post above mine describes a relationship that sounds abusive. Food deprivation can be very abusive. It's an example of a NEED that is not being met. Submissives have the right to have their needs met by their Dom, or they should walk. That simple. Needs include emotional needs and physical needs. Eating proper nutrition is a basic human right.

In the case that rosemary describes, I would not personally have backed off. That would be an example of when I would step in, for her saftey.

I agree that there are forms of food deprivation, especially in her example, that are abusive. I did not post this above since the whole conversation is exceedingly lengthy over the course of a few days, but she and her dom did ask me to back off and, at the risk of losing a friend and not actually being around when and if she needed me, I opted for that choice knowing that my concern for her was clearly outlined and discussed. I know everyone will react differently and with anyone that I knew any less I might have just severed the whole relationship, but she was different and I had to be there. And was.

BUT...this isn't about me, just thought it prudent to defend my position a little

 

[lordmagellan]

Also he makes her ask his permission in almost everything she does including in choosing her friends and who she can and can't talk to and that included her having to ask him if we could be friends and she could talk to me and stuff on yahoo. This guy seems to think this is all part of sub dom and remember she is married. Obviously this is terribly wrong ...

Obviously this is you opinion from an ignorant perspective of D/s relations. (I don't use the term 'ignorant' in a derogatory, but in it's natural meaning. People can be offended so I thought I'd clarify.) There are MANY people who are submissive to someone other than their spouse. In fact, the spouse, himself, may also be her dom, or may even be submissive to her. D/s relations can take on many many forms and every one is different. As far as this guy choosing her friends: also VERY common. But like another poster wrote, a good dom will have his/ her submissive's health and interests at heart. And in this internet age, it's become more prevalent that these relationships develop online. And that's another thing you need to remember: this is all online, so any choices, rules, demands he makes, they ultimately fall to her. A submissive always has the power to veto.

 

[Jupiter551]

A good Dom will ultimately have her interests at heart, and all his decisions will be in favor of her growth etc. There will be trust between them that she will trust his decisions are best for her even if she dislikes them. If there is a healthy bond and trust between two people, this kind of relationship and control can be very healthy and just what some people need in their lives...

I'm also coming at this as an 'outsider' but goddamn that seems like an odd statement to me. Selecting someone's friends is in favour of their growth? Sounds more like insecurity on the part of the controller to me, and trusting that person to act with her best interests at heart is a contradiction.

It is the very definition of ordering her to act in ways that prop up his ego, for his benefit.

Micro-managing someone's life doesn't encourage growth even if their life improves. She might like this kind of dynamic and have every right to it...but there's no denying that it's based on dysfunction.

 

[Dazza235]

OK, before I begin. Redone; it's obvious that you're concerned for your friend and that is definitely a good thing. You seem to be worried about her welfare and you appear scared of what might happen to her if she meets this guy. I respect you for that. I understand why you're trying to work out what to do. Please try to remember that, since some of the following might otherwise come across as a little harsher than it's intended to be.

(Also, in spite of the probable length of this, I'm quite lazy so rather than type ex-model, I'm sticking to "model" and the online boyfriend/dom is hereafter "the guy". The husband still gets to be "the husband").

To begin with, there's nothing in your post that makes it look like the woman concerned has to be told anything. Her relationship with the guy pre-dates your involvement. If she's asking permission for all of the things you mentioned, you have to assume that she has made the choice to allow this guy to dominate her. You might not understand this choice, you might not like it but I hope you will acknowledge that it is her choice and her choice alone. If she didn't want him to control her, she wouldn't let him.

Whether her husband is aware of the situation is also, to be blunt, absolutely none of your business. For the sake of everyone involved, I hope her husband does know but it's none of your concern. That is a matter which is strictly between her and her husband (it's not even the guy's business, it's certainly not yours). Lots of people in this world make choices and decisions that will never make sense to other people but it is still their right to make those choices. You have to respect that, even when you feel, think or even "know" that their choices are "wrong". If you cannot contain yourself and feel you have to warn her about things she already seems to be fully aware of, you will have to accept that you will in all likelihood lose whatever friendship you have with her.

I completely understand that her situation doesn't make sense to you. Frankly, it doesn't make sense to me either. There's very, very little of the BDSM world that I am close to understanding or have any desire to ever participate in but that doesn't necessarily mean it is actually wrong. It just means that there are people out there in the big wide world who have lived lives and made choices which make no sense to me. It doesn't mean that they have made bad choices or are unaware of what they are doing, it simply means that I don't relate to their point of view. To think otherwise is to presume that you know better than they do about their own freaking lives. Besides, even if people make bad decisions, surely they can face the consequences for themselves, try to learn from their mistakes and get on with their own lives?

If you asked my opinion of the guy, I would tell you that he seems to be a bit of an asshole. But I don't actually know him, I don't know why he acts the way he does and so I can't even say that for certain. Neither can you. I suspect I wouldn't like him but for all I know, the guy spends his spare time performing free cataract surgery on puppies. Outside of his controlling behaviour with her, he might be the nicest guy on the planet. People are complicated, with many facets to their personalities. As tempting as it is, you can't judge him by this behaviour alone. Unless someone is harming you, your friends or your family against their will then you shouldn't judge them at all really. Even then, you probably shouldn't judge them. (Although in those situations, I have to admit that I sometimes do anyway).

I actually have a friend who is quite heavily into the whole BDSM scene. Before I knew him he helped start a dungeon for like-minded types to roleplay and do what they enjoy. He has spent the better part of twenty years in a relationship with a woman who has done things like refuse to allow him to brush his teeth or go to a dentist even though he lived in constant pain from cavities and tooth decay for years.

Do I understand it? Fuck no.

Did I try to help? Yep. I told him that I thought he was in a destructive relationship which would never do him any good.(I was much more self-righteous and judgmental when I was younger, but I got better.)

Did what I said matter? Nope, not a jot. He got defensive and so I backed off. Ultimately, it came down to the fact that he was doing what he wanted to do for reasons that I couldn't understand but which made sense to him and I realised that I had to let him live his life and wait until he asked for help, if he wanted it.

Thankfully, we did manage to remain friends (although it was a bit rocky for a while, even though at the time I thought that all I thought I had done was to express concern for his welfare). Like Rosemary felt compelled to speak up in her post above (and for far,far less reason than she had), I spoke my mind, made my point and left them to it. Ten years on, he's still with his girlfriend in a relationship that makes utterly no sense to me but it works for him and that's the main thing.

Ultimately, in my opinion one of the marks of being a true friend to someone is supporting them even when their choices make no sense to you. It's part of being a friend. Obviously there are exceptions to this (the biggest I can think of is child neglect or abuse) but on the whole, you have to let people live their own lives even when their choices make no sense to you.

As a personal aside, out of the hundreds of relationships I've seen around me over my whole life, hardly any of them have ever really make much sense to me. The overwhelming majority of friends and acquaintances I have known have stayed in situations that I would have run a mile from, where they appear(ed) to be compromising things like happiness or freedom in ways that I have almost never understood and hopefully never will.

However, short of genuinely abusive scenarios where I fear for their safety, it's none of my business and even then, I have had to learn to accept that it's none of my business. As long as I let them know that I'm there for them if they need help (and actually follow through on that should the need arise), then their lives are their lives. If they ask me for an opinion about their situation, I will almost certainly be honest with them, but until they ask it's really best not to tell them, however tempting or useful you think it might be.

The last thing I want to address is your concern over what might happen if or when they meet. I understand that, from your point of view, the difference between this level of domination in a relationship and actual physical abuse is possibly non-existent. But, from my admittedly limited personal experience or reading on the subject, there is no reason to expect that she will have any greater threat of physical harm if they do happen to meet than any other two netfriends do.

(While I was writing this, lordmagellan posted just above me, he covered this point much better than I did, so what he said, can't be stuffed editing now lol).

When it comes down to it, you just have to hope that she knows what she's doing and let her live her own life the way she chooses. That can be tough, but you have to accept her right to make her own choices.

So, short version; it's none of your business. If you have to say anything, just let her know you're there as a friend if she ever needs you, but otherwise..... Stay the fuck out of it and get on with making your own choices and possibly even your own mistakes.

And a special ps to Jupiter who also posted while I wrote this; as you say, you're coming to this as an outsider. So am I. However, if it's working for the people involved, it's not necessarily dysfunctional. What caused the desire for this type of thing is beyond our ken, you and I don't know what it's based on. Just because it doesn't work for you or me, you cannot say if it works for others, sorry mate.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well in any credible terms, an adult micromanaging the day to day permissions of another adult is dysfunctional. You can say it's their choice as adults, and I agree with that, but it's still dysfunctional.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

A good Dom will ultimately have her interests at heart, and all his decisions will be in favor of her growth etc. There will be trust between them that she will trust his decisions are best for her even if she dislikes them. If there is a healthy bond and trust between two people, this kind of relationship and control can be very healthy and just what some people need in their lives...

I'm also coming at this as an 'outsider' but goddamn that seems like an odd statement to me. Selecting someone's friends is in favour of their growth? Sounds more like insecurity on the part of the controller to me, and trusting that person to act with her best interests at heart is a contradiction.

It is the very definition of ordering her to act in ways that prop up his ego, for his benefit.

Micro-managing someone's life doesn't encourage growth even if their life improves. She might like this kind of dynamic and have every right to it...but there's no denying that it's based on dysfunction.

The friends thing seems like a red flag to me. I did say that didn't I? But there were situations when I was a teenager that I picked the wrong kinds of friends. My parents vetoed them. I was PISSED at the time, but looking back it was in my best interests.

As an adult, if my Master decided to pick my friends I would be asking myself some very serious questions about his intentions. So yes.. please don't get me wrong there..... anything that potentially isolates someone is a redflag.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

I agree that there are forms of food deprivation, especially in her example, that are abusive. I did not post this above since the whole conversation is exceedingly lengthy over the course of a few days, but she and her dom did ask me to back off and, at the risk of losing a friend and not actually being around when and if she needed me, I opted for that choice knowing that my concern for her was clearly outlined and discussed. I know everyone will react differently and with anyone that I knew any less I might have just severed the whole relationship, but she was different and I had to be there. And was.

BUT...this isn't about me, just thought it prudent to defend my position a little

I understand why you did that - did not mean to ..say you necessarily went about it wrong for your situation. Sorry if I came out sounding judgemental. I guess I was trying to make sure that people understood that food deprivation should be considered abusive

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Well in any credible terms, an adult micromanaging the day to day permissions of another adult is dysfunctional. You can say it's their choice as adults, and I agree with that, but it's still dysfunctional.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but is not the military an organization that micromanages the day to day permissions of adults? Food for thought...

 

[Nordling]

Well in any credible terms, an adult micromanaging the day to day permissions of another adult is dysfunctional. You can say it's their choice as adults, and I agree with that, but it's still dysfunctional.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but is not the military an organization that micromanages the day to day permissions of adults? Food for thought...

Indeed. And as a former member of the armed forces, I'd say, yes, military life is dysfunctional, but for a purpose. Whether, in a philosophical sense, we can say that this programmed dysfunction is proper, since it protects society at large, I don't really know. I do know that the military is never completely isolated from civilian life; people eventually retire or resign or don't re-enlist, but their programming remains--at least for a time. It took me several years to completely rid myself of the mindset.

OT I know but maybe it relates.

 

[Rosemary]

I understand why you did that - did not mean to ..say you necessarily went about it wrong for your situation. Sorry if I came out sounding judgemental. I guess I was trying to make sure that people understood that food deprivation should be considered abusive

No worries and thank you! I think I misinterpreted a little, so I also apologize!

I am out of words on the main subject. What needs to be said was summed up pretty well. Everything else is kind of tapping on the glass and requires a way more complex look at language than I think I am ready to dive into. Wittgenstein has kind of made me a poor day-to-day conversationalist, LOL!

To those who stay and try to explain the behaviors of Rule 34... :handgestures-salute:

 

[LadyLuna]

I read halfway through, and couldn't help but post something kinda obvious:

How do you know he was telling the truth?

Unless you ask the MODEL about it and she confirms it, I would assume it's a member making you a part of his detailed fantasy in an effort to get off.

Just an FYI, if ANY man pm's saying that he controls my life, he's lying. My Master doesn't tell people who he is on MFC, and doesn't want me telling people who he is. He also never comes into my chatroom.

 

[tightlockup]

I just wanted to say that when you go to meet someone you've met online it is good to do it in a public place and to also arrange for a safe calls - a friend expects you to call them at certain times, and if you don't make those calls they are to alert the authorities. Keeping a GPS with you that can be tracked remotely is also a good idea.

 

[luvsyou]

my attitude is....They are all adults. It is their business (the 3 involved) and no one else's.

I would just stay out of it.

 

[Tristyn]

Also he makes her ask his permission in almost everything she does including in choosing her friends and who she can and can't talk to and that included her having to ask him if we could be friends and she could talk to me and stuff on yahoo. This guy seems to think this is all part of sub dom and remember she is married. Obviously this is terribly wrong and i couldn't believe what i was reading when he was typing telling me.

Every D/s relationship is different, but nothing that you've mentioned sounds all that abnormal or uncommon, and it's not "terribly wrong" if the people involved are happy with it. Online sub/dom relationships are pretty common. Just because he 'makes' her ask permission to do x, y or z doesn't mean that he's controlling her in ways that she doesn't want to be controlled. It also doesn't mean that he's denying her things, or that he's trying to isolate her.

You can tell someone that they need to ask your permission to do something without ever actually saying 'no' to their requests. It's about the power exchange for some people, not about the denial. I don't know the people involved or their dynamic obviously, but it sounds (to me) like she's choosing to give him that kind of power because she wants to. *shrugs*

Safety is always a concern when meeting someone for the first time, but there are steps she can take to minimize the risks. I've met up with tons of people from the intarwebz over the years and I've never had a problem. In the end, she's an adult who can make her own decisions. Be there for her if she needs/wants you to be, but you risk pushing her away if you come on too strongly; if someone told me that one of my relationships was "terribly wrong", I'd probably tell them to go pound sand and stop confiding in them entirely.

That's just my :twocents-02cents:.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well, I kinda wonder why "the guy" was telling him all this.

I agree that telling someone one of their relationships is "wrong" is a good way to drive them away and offend them, but then I'd have thought that the specific details of the dom/sub relationship would be reasonably private because a) well, it's no one else's business, and b) to the uninitiated it looks like a textbook case of spousal abuse/control/etc.

If you go round telling any random person your significant other chooses your friends, clothes, what you eat, etc chances are you'll get a few trying to intervene.

 

[LadyLuna]

Well, I kinda wonder why "the guy" was telling him all this.

I agree that telling someone one of their relationships is "wrong" is a good way to drive them away and offend them, but then I'd have thought that the specific details of the dom/sub relationship would be reasonably private because a) well, it's no one else's business, and b) to the uninitiated it looks like a textbook case of spousal abuse/control/etc.

If you go round telling any random person your significant other chooses your friends, clothes, what you eat, etc chances are you'll get a few trying to intervene.

Which is why unless we hear from the model herself that it was happening, I believe the member was lying to try to make himself look good.