Do you think we can really eliminate body prejudice?

[Evvie]

Racism, sexism, weight, judging people based on how they dress, look, and present themselves - do you think these things will ever be completely eliminated from the human psyche?

I think there are many things that need to be changed in the modern world, but I have my doubts as to whether or not body prejudice will go away completely.

People are visual. We dress purposefully based on the image we want to give off. The styles people choose to emulate are always a reflection of their own personality. We can and do learn a lot about people just based on their appearance. There are standards of beauty innate to humans as a species, independent of culture. Visual cues inform people whom might be a viable sexual partner, or whether or not that person is likely to be a physical threat.

Are there some forms of prejudice that are worse than others? I would say there are. Racial and sexual prejudice seem like things that are worse not only because they are innate and uncontrollable, but because there isn't anything wrong with any one race or any one sexuality, and to suggest otherwise seems pretty silly. On the other hand, if someone decides to decorate their body in a manner suggesting that they are part of a subculture promoting violence, is it wrong to assume that they might be more prone to violence? Would you be happier to live in a world where your body cannot/will not give people an impression of you?

Do you think it will be possible to eradicate all prejudice based on a person's physical form? Do you think it is desirable to do so? Do you think that it will be a goal for future generations (or even centuries from now)? How would it change the world if appearance didn't matter? How would it affect sex workers?

 

[bob]

no....procreation is intricately linked to all these things....whether it's good thing or not, our search for sexual partners is a part of all that stuff

 

[Red7227]

no....procreation is intricately linked to all these things....whether it's good thing or not, our search for sexual partners is a part of all that stuff

Exactly. The male ideal is a woman with good skin and a waist 70% the apparent size of her chest and hips. Women will always be attracted to powerful aggressive men because this will give their children the best chance in life. Being colour conscious is simply protecting the adaptions that skin colour reflects.

Dumbasses will take this to extremes, but the basic prejudice is inherent in everyone.

 

[Kradek]

IMO, the last two responses are incorrect. Prejudice falls squarely on the "Nurture" side of the Nature vs Nurture spectrum. You really don't have to look too far for cultures that venerate qualities you view as subpar. It's one of those things; if you grow up in an environment where you are barraged with a particular norm, anything outside that norm seems to be wrong, when usually its really just different.

Could there be a society that eliminates skewing one direction or another? Well, that's a much harder problem.

 

[camstory]

So many questions in there Evvie. I'll try one or two. No, i don't believe bias based on appearance will ever go away. I have two thoughts about that.

One; I don't think making some judgments when evaluating a persons appearance is always wrong, or an act of prejudice. For instance, if you notice a woman who does not shave her pits and you know she lives here in the states, I don't think you can conclude t that her attitude regarding the established mainstream mold of "The US Woman" is one of rebellion, but I think you can be sure she does not care that she fits that mold.

On the other hand the second thought I had about continued bias based on appearance, was not such a good one. I think in the future there's a pretty good chance that ppl of means will find it fashionable, and advantageous to manipulate the physical traits of their offspring. If this becomes the case, it makes sense that soon anyone who appeared less than attractive might be assumed to be of lesser class, or born of economically unfit parentage.

I like to think we human animals will become better ppl in the future, but I'm not so sure it might not get worse before it gets better. We currently are some pretty shallow,selfcentered, selfish, egotistical, and all too often loveless beast. That's a long way from dropping our bias based on something as visceral as appearance.

 

[JickyJuly]

I agree that most prejudice is nurture over nature. While I think it's important to use your brain and not pigeon hole everyone you see, some judgements can be useful. We shouldn't choose to be blind to the observations and lessons our lives teach us or take them to extremes, but sometimes recognizing things about unknown people is valuable. I'm not sure which would be worse being completely judgmental or completely naive.

As an example, when we were in our early 20s a friend of mine had the WORST taste in men (and this is coming from someone who general chooses the unwashed and unemployed hehe). 3 times in meeting her new boyfriends I was compelled to point out to her that there were issues that she wasn't aware of. The 1st was covered in jailhouse tattoos. She was pretty irate when I pulled her aside and asked her if he had told her what he was in prison for. After she berated me for assuming the worst about people, I asked him what he HAD gone to prison for privately. The news was not good. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with choosing to date whomever you like, but assessing the situation is helpful.

 

[LucyGoodtimes]

IMO prejudices formed on visual cues, specifically racism and sexism, were not always around! There was a time where humans existed in societies but these issues did not. So theoretically, I think there could be a time where these prejudices no longer exist. But that'd be a looooong fucking time from now.

I took a class in college, through the history department, about slavery. We focused mostly on Western enslavement of African and Native American peoples, but we touched on slavery before and after these times. I'm OBSESSED with etymology. Here's a fun fact! You know the word "slave"? It came from the Roman's (y'know, they had dark hair and tanner skin and shit) enslavement of the Slavic people (really pale blonde white people). Anyway, a lot of current racist concepts, or even the term "black people," was created in the time of European enslavement of African people, to justify the dehumanization on the grounds of innate superiority.

Anyway, I believe that the belief that there's a "natural selection" reason for a certain body type being more attractive is false. As Dan Dennett argues in this TED talk, it's not that you like a certain body type because it's sexy; rather, a certain body type is sexy because you like it: ie it's not intrinsically better, its just a widely "accepted" belief.



What I'm trying to get at is that I think it's totally possible to be rid of these prejudices. Possible, NOT probable.

I, for one, value and condemn these prejudices based on visual cues. I fucking love expressing myself via what I wear, how I look, but have also been criticized because of it. As much as I try to promote acceptance and pride of ones body, despite what it looks like, I also find myself singing the praises of modesty in my fashion blog. So I guess I'm just a big hypocrite?

 

[Nordling]

I agree that "body prejudice" is learned rather than innate. After all, Ruben painted fuller-figured women for a reason--it was the preference of the time. I think it's important though, to put a line between "preference" and "prejudice." If you prefer blondes over brunettes, fine, as long as it's only about who you want to date or mate with. If you carry that preference to how you judge a person as a fellow human, then you are being bigoted.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

It's sheep behaviour.

Someone decided we like skinny girls, almost everyone likes skinny girls. Someone says we like curvy girls, almost everyone goes for a curvier girl.

Racism is nurture and a bit of nature. Nature only being if you're say white, your parents will be white, so they are imprinted on your mind as 'safety' and it is the same if you are black. Now if you are in a society where people all have different skin colours and also follow the same culture/socialise with each other you won't notice the differences in skin colour anymore than you notice someone has blue or brown eyes. Whilst if you grow up in either an all black or all white society your minds instinctively will think "Other!" (probably because we're pack/tribe animals). It can be the same when talking to someone from a totally different culture. It doesn't have the same safety/comfort zone as talking with someone with the same upbringing as you.

Where racism comes in is when a few people fear these differences too much and instincts won't allow them to broaden/open their minds so they still think of someone who looks different to them as 'other'. It's when these people either have children or a very big mouth when other people start following on. I think the reason some of this racism is getting so bad is because of the few people who refuse to let go of their fear and hate are getting even more scared because so many people don't care anymore.

When it comes to being attracted to people from different races, well hey, everyone has a type, I like all different nationalities (I mean hotness is hotness and doesn't discriminate) but I tend to not like very dark black men, I did date a guy who was very dark, he was very attractive, but he just wasn't my taste. I also don't like fat/overweight men. But I also understand that not everyone shares my taste. I hate it when people feel their opinion is law. It is not. I'm very opinionated and will happily throw it out there at almost any opportunity, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same way!

I also think that although I'd love everyone to open their minds and calm the feck down, I don't think it's going to happen. There will sadly always be very angry people who wish to hate. I used to have a best friend in school, we fell out because he became a nazi at the age of 14. I'm not sure if he still is, but I heard he used to have swastikas on his walls etc. The reason I fell out with him was besides me feeling sick at the thought of all that stuff it was the amount of hate in him. I couldn't be friends with someone who was willing to hate like that.

 

[LadyLuna]

I think things can get better, but not necessarily completely gone.

I do think some things are useful, like the prison tats thing. Instead of making judgements based on the big picture, (three times, it came out gib instead of big x.x), we should look at details. What expression is usually on that person's face? Do they smile when they greet people? Is it a genuine smile? Or do they give most people a secret look of disgust? Those are important to note. But what skin color a person has is not nearly as important as knowing if they're part of a gang. It's important to be able to come up with what a person's general values are, to know if they're likely to lie or steal from you. But a person's values are determined by the people who raised them, not by what physical features they were born with.

I do believe most prejudices are nurture, with a tiny bit of nature. The nature bit is simply that it takes us awhile to get used to new things. That is it. The nurture bit is how we have learned to react to new things, and what things are considered new.

I grew up, initially, in New England. In New England, a person's appearance doesn't matter all that much. Instead, the person's family and level of schooling is more important. And a person who reads a lot of factual books is accorded the same level of schooling as a person who has attended a lot of actual school. I came from a broken family, so I was fair game for teasing and nasty looks, until I showed a love of learning. The teasing became more covert, because I had gained something that the culture finds valuable. I met very few people of different race, but those that I did meet were given respect according to how much they knew, how well they learned. I did not get old enough to find out how much who you know is valued in New England. I moved before I could find that out.

 

[Mirra]

I don't see it going anywhere personally. I see it shifting as cultural norms shift. In fact, I'd say body prejudices and preferences both shift slightly between cultures today. Changing but not ceasing unless the human race ceases.

 

[bob]

IMO, the last two responses are incorrect. Prejudice falls squarely on the "Nurture" side of the Nature vs Nurture spectrum. You really don't have to look too far for cultures that venerate qualities you view as subpar. It's one of those things; if you grow up in an environment where you are barraged with a particular norm, anything outside that norm seems to be wrong, when usually its really just different.

Could there be a society that eliminates skewing one direction or another? Well, that's a much harder problem.

well....of course prejudice is nurture over nature......but that's not the question evvie asked....she simply asked whether or not "these things will ever be completely eliminated from the human psyche"?....the fact that one society venerates "this" quality and another venerates "that" quality only demonstrates that nurture is a source of cultural diversity....it doesn't negate that biologically, we are predisposed to select qualities that promote the continuation of the species.

we are capable of accepting that not all individuals will abide by the "guidelines" that a culture considers normal....that's the power and the grace of the human psyche...it's ability to see, understand, and overcome things like racial prejudice, or bias based on gender or sexual preference....but to follow the logic of your argument to one of its dead ends is to accept the extreme "nurture" argument that homosexuality is a threat to the species....that it is somehow a learned behavior that can be propogated culturally, overcoming our biological prejudice towards the opposite sex

 

[Kradek]

but to follow the logic of your argument to one of its dead ends is to accept the extreme "nurture" argument that homosexuality is a threat to the species....that it is somehow a learned behavior that can be propogated culturally, overcoming our biological prejudice towards the opposite sex

I'm not sure this is a complete thought. What is it you're saying?

 

[bob]

but to follow the logic of your argument to one of its dead ends is to accept the extreme "nurture" argument that homosexuality is a threat to the species....that it is somehow a learned behavior that can be propogated culturally, overcoming our biological prejudice towards the opposite sex

I'm not sure this is a complete thought. What is it you're saying?

that nurture is the clothes nature wears in this discussion....regardless of our favorite style, the biological imperative to procreate is the final determinate of our behavior.

we have the power....the passion even, to overcome many prejudices....but not that one.

 

[Kradek]

that nurture is the clothes nature wears in this discussion....regardless of our favorite style, the biological imperative to procreate is the final determinate of our behavior.

we have the power....the passion even, to overcome many prejudices....but not that one.

I'm still fairly confused with what your saying. With respect to homosexuality, or any variation of it, I think whether it's driven by genetics or not is immaterial to my point. Your attitude toward people displaying homosexual traits is a learned behavior.

 

[bob]

that nurture is the clothes nature wears in this discussion....regardless of our favorite style, the biological imperative to procreate is the final determinate of our behavior.

we have the power....the passion even, to overcome many prejudices....but not that one.

I'm still fairly confused with what your saying. With respect to homosexuality, or any variation of it, I think whether it's driven by genetics or not is immaterial to my point. Your attitude toward people displaying homosexual traits is a learned behavior.

ok...let's see what other's have to say.... :thumbleft:

 

[Nordling]

but to follow the logic of your argument to one of its dead ends is to accept the extreme "nurture" argument that homosexuality is a threat to the species....that it is somehow a learned behavior that can be propogated culturally, overcoming our biological prejudice towards the opposite sex

I'm not sure this is a complete thought. What is it you're saying?

that nurture is the clothes nature wears in this discussion....regardless of our favorite style, the biological imperative to procreate is the final determinate of our behavior.

we have the power....the passion even, to overcome many prejudices....but not that one.

I'm straight and have no desire to procreate. But maybe you're talking about something else? And for that matter, I could not overcome this lack of desire.

I really don't know what all the facts are on nurture versus nature. I think there's a lot more facts that need to be derived for something as complex as that.

 

[southsamurai]

oooooo! nature vs nurture! round 32! im not getting into that part of it, its impossible to get anywhere lol

body prejudice is sort of normal and acceptable. when you are looking for a mate anyway. seeking someone with high symmetry, healthy skin etc is what you are supposed to do. beyond that the valuation of which set of features or body type is pretty to society as a whole changes over time, so isnt really all that important. though if yer a big chubby hairy dude in a time when shaved naked little boys are what is popular yer sort of screwed, or rather not screwed as the case may be. even so not all people are into the same thing. plenty of dudes like curvy chicks, plenty more like really big women. heck when it comes to what features i like im so far outside of the hollywood standard im a bit of a freak. i like larger noses, visible, prominent (tho healthy please) teeth. i tend to like smaller breasts and more hips than is common. lucky for me eh?

the problem isnt in what people are attracted to or not. the problem comes in when attraction prejudice spreads out into the rest of our lives, didja know that obese people get paid less, have a harder time getting jobs, and are the first to be (ha ha) down sized? and trust me, fat folk dont work any less than skinny folk just cuz theyre fat. this fat bastard worked until his back literally broke, for barely more than minimum wage during large parts of my 20 odd years in the work force. that with a college degree and a lot of non scholastic education as well.

now that part of body prejudice we can do without, and its possible to get rid of. are we going to? hell no. the human race is filled with stupid, backwards, prejudiced idiots. its very human to assume that whatever views we hold must be the right ones, and that the entire world must work as we believe it to. amazing we havent gone the way of the dodo isnt it? yay for relatively high reproductive rates and a stubborn insistence on wiping out any threat to our survival eh?

 

[southsamurai]

oh, a complete side note: i have a major intellect crush on the OP. Evvie is frakkin brilliant!

 

[JickyJuly]

I think money, power and intelligence has taken over as far as choosing a mate to parent with goes. Most people want to raise children with someone who has more to offer than genetically straight teeth or a pleasant face shape. We live in a time where most physical "flaws" can be adjusted. So the idea that prejudice exists for procreation is mostly outdated.

 

[bob]

I think money, power and intelligence has taken over as far as choosing a mate to parent with goes. Most people want to raise children with someone who has more to offer than genetically straight teeth or a pleasant face shape. We live in a time where most physical "flaws" can be adjusted. So the idea that prejudice exists for procreation is mostly outdated.

or the prejudices have just adjusted....kradek is right about the cultural influence on them...but you raise an interesting point about our increasing ability to create physical attributes we find attractive, or adjust existing ones to meet our view of what's attractive.

 

[southsamurai]

I think money, power and intelligence has taken over as far as choosing a mate to parent with goes. Most people want to raise children with someone who has more to offer than genetically straight teeth or a pleasant face shape. We live in a time where most physical "flaws" can be adjusted. So the idea that prejudice exists for procreation is mostly outdated.

as much as i would love it to be true, ive seen some recent research into who we choose as mates, sexual partners etc... sure, the decision to actually MARRY someone might be influenced by intellect/personality and money, but before things ever get to the stage of a proposal the human species still insists on using visual cues to determine a worthwhile partner. the first factor that our subconscious latches onto is feature ratio 1-1.615. the closer your face is to that ration the more attractive you are, even to babies who arent into the whole mating idea.

second consideration that goes into it is outward signs of health. ( not always accurate in determining actual health, but still what out primal brains use) full set of teeth, clear skin and healthy looking hair rank pretty high on the list. these factors work no matter what culture theyve been researched in. the next rung is the "social" appearance factors. amount of fat on the body, hair/eye color height etc. these change from culture to culture as to which is desired, and often change over time in the same culture. height is more constant than the others in this list. tall is almost universal in its appeal over short. there are a few places in which a shorter male is desired.

the next rung is the outward signs of societal success ( money usually here in the states) most people use clothing and jewelry as their indicators of this. other status objects play their role tho.


of course all of these things can be ignored for a marriage partner. plenty of gold diggers out there that will take an ugly, dumb rude asshole if hes got enough cash and is willing to share it. (yes there are male gold diggers, but less of them. boo for gender salary disparity!) but in making that choice to ignore those factors, it is the conscious mind overcoming the more primal urges. and frankly? most of the people who think that way tend to seek sexual fulfillment outside of the societally approved pair bonding anyway. so while they may choose a rich smart partner for the legal mate, their actual children are likely to come from the persons they choose for sexual fun.

like i always say, humans are animal at their root, read up on chimp behavior and it gets disgusting how alike we are in the bad ways

 

[SweepTheLeg]

In a word-No.

 

[Beach_Love]

No, But If You're Not Happy With Your Body You Can Change It

No, genetic ideals are too ingrained into our monkey brains and constantly reinforced by advertising and media. I feel like less than a real man all the time b/c I've always been scrawny. I was listening to my favorite podcast (Joe Rogan, I highly recommend it. He's not as much of a douche as you girls might think/is actually very open minded), and he said something that blew my mind (he's a really smart guy). He's been into the martial arts/functional strength training his entire life and he said something to the effect of "the great thing about fitness/working out is that it's the ONE part of your life where you can make GUARANTEED POSITIVE CHANGES". You put the time and effort in following a solid program (and it does not have to take a lot of time, effort, or money, i.e. bodyweight cond.), eat a sensible diet, get enough sleep, and drink a lot of water and you will look better naked. There are a lot of areas of my life that Id like to change and am going to continue to try and do so but like I said Im not counting any chickens before they hatch except where my fitness is concerned LOL. In fact I decided today that since I've made such good progress w/ just a get back in shape workout why not go for the gold. So I'm starting over w/ the goal of becoming as strong as I possibly can. I could've picked a workout that would give me some sweet beach muscles but I agree with "Gym Jones" (300 trainer) that "Appearance should be a consequence of fitness".

The best part about the results I'm starting to see in the mirror (some definition in my abs, bigger biceps, legs still skinny LOL but now have weird "new" muscles like the ones in front of my shins) AND feel (nagging shoulder injury gone) are that I wasn't born looking like that and I didn't buy them, I paid for them with Blood, Sweat & Tears (great band btw).

Finally, for me I don't care if a girl is skinny in the middle or Rubenesque. What's most important to me is that she's looks "healthy". LA is filled with girls that when I see them cross the street I say she'd be hot if she wasn't an anorexic. They all look so sickly and weak, and like sharing a meal with them would not be much fun (I like a girl w/ a healthy appetite).