Is this morally right?

[sahi]

Ok so I'm really stuck on a moral dillema at the moment. I recentley got back in touch with an old female friend of mine through facebook that I knew from when we were in our teens. We'd gotten in touch a few years earlier too, but not properly. This time we began talking on facebook messenger & then on whatsapp. She began telling me about the troubles she's been having. After a day or so of talking she asked if she could borrow some money. I lent her the money & again some more some days later. While we talked she made it clear she wasn't ready for a relationship because she just got out of one. And me & her have history, as she once tried to ask me out years back but I got weirded out & kinda stopped her from asking. Anyway so I thought seeing how she isn't ready for a reltionship maybe we could be intimate via text, over the phone etc. I asked her this on whatsapp & didn't hear back from her until yeaterday. She said she wasn't offended at all & explained that the reason she hadn't been in touch was because she'd been given these new meds for depression & they'd knocked her side-ways. She also told me that she came really, really close to killing herself on xmas day. Shortly after she suggested something to me. She suggested that seeing how she can't work at the moment & needs money & I've certain needs then I could give her money in exchange for being intimate. She said that she feels 100% comfy with me, wants to give me pleasure & that this way she wouldn't feel bad about getting money from me.

I was over the moon about this, as I've had nothing but bad luck with women over the years & it's been 2 or 3 years since I was last intimate with a woman. But having talked this over with my mum & my cousin, they both feel that this isn't morally right due to what she's been through & that afterwards she might feel bad about herself for doing this. But I see it as two friends helping each other out. I really don't know what to do. I've checked with her a couple times to make sure she's definately cool with it & she's said yes. But at the same time I'm thinking she might not be thinking straight due to what she's gone through.

 

[DJ_Pioneer]

This is wrong, you don't buy sex from friends so they can make ends meet when they are vulnerable. You can give her the money or lend it to her but if you buy sex from her you won't be friends anymore because you will have taken advantage of her when she is in need of help and that is not something friends do.

 

[Miss_Lollipop]

I dont know it sounds like she's making this choice willingly. She suggested the arrangement. You've checked and rechecked that shes comfortable. Unless you know her well enough that this is completely out of character for her (like if my religious mum started camming I'd have her checked out lol)

We aren't all mentally healthy and well when we do sex work.. sometimes it's a means to get well or survive. I don't know maybe I'm missing something but this didn't read as anything I'd call morally wrong. Potentially complicated, grey area, tread lightly...sure.

 

[RogueWarrior]

If you wanna get laid, get a hooker. No emotional baggage attached.

If you want to help her, then help her get counseling. Suicidal thoughts are nothing to trifle with. If you care for this person, great, help her. Do not get involved sexually, because who knows when you break it off (and you will) if that triggers her into more suicidal thoughts and maybe actions.

 

[Lelo1]

I've had nothing but bad luck with women over the years

Why would this be any different.
Just look at what your saying.

she isn't ready for a reltionship

and now your talking about

give her money in exchange for being intimate.

This isn't a relationship.
What about this sound like a good idea?
If this was some random person online, Would you be thinking the same thing?

 

[Wade W Wilson]

Well usually if you have to ask, that means that the answer is that the thing is immoral.

In this case, the answer is absofuckinglutely yes it is immoral. This girl sounds like she's going through some serious shit and you're taking advantage of that weakness to get what you want out of her and very possibly enabling her further bad habits, the question being is this money you're giving her for legit, doctor prescribed depression meds or is she "self medicating"? Either way you're enabling a bad habit or making her treatment conditional on your satisfaction.

I don't want to go all white knight because I'm FAR from being anyone's moral superior most of the time, but it's more than a little fucked up that you even had to ask.

 

[sahi]

Another thing that I've been thinking about is what to do with the information she gave me regarding nearly killing herself. She told me I'm the only one she's told. And so I'm worried about her family not knowing. On the one hand I don't want to break her trust. But on the other hand if her family knows then they could offer her support & prevent something bad happening in the future. Although I should mention that she's told me that she doesn't get on with most of her family, which maybe why she hasn't told them.

 

[GoddessValkyrieRose]

Ok so I'm really stuck on a moral dillema at the moment. I recentley got back in touch with an old female friend of mine through facebook that I knew from when we were in our teens. We'd gotten in touch a few years earlier too, but not properly. This time we began talking on facebook messenger & then on whatsapp. She began telling me about the troubles she's been having. After a day or so of talking she asked if she could borrow some money. I lent her the money & again some more some days later. While we talked she made it clear she wasn't ready for a relationship because she just got out of one. And me & her have history, as she once tried to ask me out years back but I got weirded out & kinda stopped her from asking. Anyway so I thought seeing how she isn't ready for a reltionship maybe we could be intimate via text, over the phone etc. I asked her this on whatsapp & didn't hear back from her until yeaterday. She said she wasn't offended at all & explained that the reason she hadn't been in touch was because she'd been given these new meds for depression & they'd knocked her side-ways. She also told me that she came really, really close to killing herself on xmas day. Shortly after she suggested something to me. She suggested that seeing how she can't work at the moment & needs money & I've certain needs then I could give her money in exchange for being intimate. She said that she feels 100% comfy with me, wants to give me pleasure & that this way she wouldn't feel bad about getting money from me.

I was over the moon about this, as I've had nothing but bad luck with women over the years & it's been 2 or 3 years since I was last intimate with a woman. But having talked this over with my mum & my cousin, they both feel that this isn't morally right due to what she's been through & that afterwards she might feel bad about herself for doing this. But I see it as two friends helping each other out. I really don't know what to do. I've checked with her a couple times to make sure she's definately cool with it & she's said yes. But at the same time I'm thinking she might not be thinking straight due to what she's gone through.

I don't think there is anything morally wrong with it, she's making a choice. But I think it's important to see thing arrangement for what it is (a business arrangement ) and not look at it as if this is a relationship despite what emotions may be at play. Regardless I don't think I would want this kind of arrangement with anyone I had or have romantic feelings for... I just see it going pretty poorly in general at some point.

 

[Chojin]

From what you say, the girl is vulnerable and mentally screwed up.

Taking advantage of her current mental state is extra rapey tbh. She's probably sleeping with other men for money too.

Enjoy your STDs

 

[GoddessValkyrieRose]

From what you say, the girl is vulnerable and mentally screwed up.

Taking advantage of her current mental state is extra rapey tbh. She's probably sleeping with other men for money too.

Enjoy your STDs

The stigma around STI's is ridiculous You realize that using a condom protects you from the serious STDs and stis but the most common ones, like HPV and HSV can be contacted from skin to skin contact lol. Like over 70% of the population has one or both.. Always use protection but if you think the only way you're going to get one of those is from a sex worker lol just wow. Time to go back to health class and read some cold hard facts. #realitycheck

 

[briandf255]

To be honest, the beginning of your post about how after you got back in touch with this woman she started describing her problems and asking you for money sounded a lot like those stories where an American man falls for an Eastern European cam girl who then starts milking him for money. I'm glad you didn't go on to describe how you gave her increasing amounts of money and then suddenly she cut off all contact and told her family and friends that you were stalking her. (I thought that's where it was going.)

Anyways, here is my take on the moral/immoral question:

It's immoral if she's so messed up mentally that she doesn't know what she's doing or if she's so desperate for money that she's doing things she doesn't really want to do. The latter doesn't seem to be the case here, but I think a lot of the posters above who said it was immoral thought it was the former. I won't make that call, since I can only go by what you've described and only you know this woman and whether she's in the right state mentally. Either way, if it's one of those two scenarios, then she would regret it later and therefore you would be taking advantage of her if you were to go ahead.

If it's not like that and it's a case of you giving her something she wants and you're willing to part with (money) and in return she gives you something you want and she wants to give (sexual intimacy), then it's two rational adults coming to an arrangement. (The deciding factor being the word "rational".)

Whether it's wise is a different question. There are very few future outcomes I can imagine where both of you will look back on this as something positive - friends helping each other - without any sort of resentment. I think the chances are that it would create some issues down the road and probably wouldn't end well.

 

[Sillykitty]

If it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, if she is of sound frame of mind, if you realize that this is only sex and not emotional, then I think it's fine.

If she is depressed and experiencing suicidal ideation, and on top of that being stressed about bills and not having a good relationship with her family- she could be making desperate decisions which she might later regret. I've been very clinically mentally ill, and when it was untreated and I was feeling worthless about myself, I made many choices that I normally would not have made. You, as a person asking the advice of 3rd parties, probably realizes this. If you realize this, then it moves from a mutually beneficial agreement, to a weird grey area.

If you are her friend and care about her, and would do things for her without expecting sex or affection in return- help her. You dont need to go to her fam if she doesnt get on with them. But you can offer her assistance in getting her help, finding resources, being someone she can trust and talk to without feeling like she owes you something in return. I'm not saying throw money at her if she cant pay you back, or if you cant afford it, but just offering true friendship might be beneficial.

(Also kudos for being close enough with your mom to ask her this type of stuff. You could also talk to her about how to best help a friend who has suicidal feelings).

 

[Emberblaze]

Firstly, some of the whorephobic language and additude used in this thread on a forum full is sex workers is disgusting. Not the OP, but some of the rest of you. Remove the word "hooker" from your vocabulary and while your at it remove the notion that sex workers or people that have casual partners are riddled with STI's. Most sex positive people know how to have safe(er) sex and get tested frequently whereas people that think "only dirty people" can give them infections are less likely to test and more likely to spread shit around. These attitudes add to the stigma sex workers experience and the stigma is what causes sex workers to feel bad later about consensual sex work they have done.

Now that I'm done scolding some of you let's get back to the OP.

I have some questions for you to ask her. I'm unclear if you're talking about sex or just sexting because you mention whatsapp. I'm going to assume sex. Has she done sex work in the past? How did she feel about it when she did it? How does she feel about sex work in general?

Because I've never done full service sex work but if I was having trouble paying my rent because of mental illness I'd probably consider it and as long as I didn't have any traumatic experience doing it I wouldn't look back on the experiences negatively. Simply because I don't believe any consensual sex work is wrong. I've been extremely mentally ill and still been 100 percent in charge of my decisions about my own body. So I don't believe mental illness automatically means someone can't make these decisions for themselves. It can, but probably not in most cases. But someone who inherently believes sex work is wrong may feel differently after "the deed is done". The answer to your question about whether this is moral is going to come from her and serious discussions between the two of you. It essentially sounds like a sugar daddy arrangement and if she's unable to work could be very beneficial for her provided she will feel ok about it down the road.

There is the issue that you are friends, which can greatly complicate your friendship in the future. Have you mentioned things like other forms of online sex work to her like phone sex or camming? So that she understands she has options that don't involve her friends? You don't mention her looks but regardless of whether she's "conventionally" attractive or not there's ways for her to make money. I know I put off camming a bit longer because while I felt my thick body was hot I wasn't sure it would be profitable.

Take note what the models here are saying and take note what the men are saying by the way. I think this is important to see the distinction between who is saying what. Not completely discounting the members opinions but I want to call extra attention to what the models are saying.

Ultimately the answer to your questions will come from her. Find out how she views sex work and sex workers in general. If she has a poor view of sex workers this could affect how she sees herself in the future. If she's sex positive and thinks sex work is work and nothing to be ashamed of she's going to be less likely to be negatively affected.

 

[DJ_Pioneer]

Firstly, some of the whorephobic language and additude used in this thread on a forum full is sex workers is disgusting. Not the OP, but some of the rest of you. Remove the word "hooker" from your vocabulary and while your at it remove the notion that sex workers or people that have casual partners are riddled with STI's. Most sex positive people know how to have safe(er) sex and get tested frequently whereas people that think "only dirty people" can give them infections are less likely to test and more likely to spread shit around. These attitudes add to the stigma sex workers experience and the stigma is what causes sex workers to feel bad later about consensual sex work they have done.

There are only two types of Hookers in my book, the ones in Rugby and this guy.

Take note what the models here are saying and take note what the men are saying by the way. I think this is important to see the distinction between who is saying what. Not completely discounting the members opinions but I want to call extra attention to what the models are saying.

Friends with benefits extremely rarely works out in the long term, so I doubt a friends exchanging money for sex is going to work out. If she was my friend and she wanted to do something that made her feel like she earned the money I could come up with other things she could do for me that most likely wouldn't screw up the friendship. If something goes wrong or she starts regretting her decision somewhere down the line OP will end up looking like a villain, but him and his friend will be a prime candidates for being a guests on Dr.Phil.

 

[Emberblaze]

There are only two types of Hookers in my book, the ones in Rugby and this guy.

Friends with benefits extremely rarely works out in the long term, so I doubt a friends exchanging money for sex is going to work out. If she was my friend and she wanted to do something that made her feel like she earned the money I could come up with other things she could do for me that most likely wouldn't screw up the friendship. If something goes wrong or she starts regretting her decision somewhere down the line OP will end up looking like a villain, but him and his friend will be a prime candidates for being a guests on Dr.Phil.

Oh, I think the friendship will be over eventually regardless of whether money is exchanged for sex or not. But what the OP asked was "is this moral"

FWB situations rarely work out within the monogamy mindset. Polyamorous people seem to pull it off fine but those that believe in monogamy generally fail from what I've personally witnessed.

 

[Chojin]

So did you get a quote sahi?

 

[Lucid1]

I asked her this on whatsapp & didn't hear back from her until yeaterday. She said she wasn't offended at all & explained that the reason she hadn't been in touch was because she'd been given these new meds for depression & they'd knocked her side-ways. She also told me that she came really, really close to killing herself on xmas day. Shortly after she suggested something to me. She suggested that seeing how she can't work at the moment & needs money & I've certain needs then I could give her money in exchange for being intimate.

She obviously sounds like she has some form of mental health needs. One could make a lot of assumptions based on the limited amount of details you provide in your post, but the obvious moral dilemma here is her health, first and foremost. If it were me, and as her friend, I would have to consider her mental state more than anything else. You say that she was "given these new meds", so that implies that she was provided these meds by way of prescription, which also implies that she has an attending physician/psychiatrist who provided said prescription. There is no "break in trust" to be considered here if you are a true friend to her, so reaching out to her family and making sure that they know about the suicide attempt should be first on your list of things to do if you are worried about moral dilemmas. Paying her for sex(even if she suggested it) when you know she has a mental health condition(especially one severe enough to cause her to contemplate suicide) just seems creepy to me. But hey, I'm old fashioned that way.

 

[SMuser69]

Late to the party but I don't see any issues. We can't push respecting consent is we don't actual respect the choices from that consent. Depression doesn't implicitly impair consent. I took pills for depression for a time also and it didn't mean I wasn't able to understand the situations I agreed to as an adult. If everyone is an adult and consent is given with understanding, case closed. You and her might have other consequences emotionally but those aren't moral issues.

 

[DJ_Pioneer]

Oh, I think the friendship will be over eventually regardless of whether money is exchanged for sex or not. But what the OP asked was "is this moral"

FWB situations rarely work out within the monogamy mindset. Polyamorous people seem to pull it off fine but those that believe in monogamy generally fail from what I've personally witnessed.

OK so it should be a complex philosophical argument then.

No I don't believe it to be moral from my point of view. If I were apply the Golden Rule "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself" the answer would be no. I wouldn't consider someone that accepted the proposition of me selling sex to them a friend anymore, because it would be a cry for help but my own pride would have gotten in the way. I don't think prostitution is wrong and in my opinion prostitution should be legal, but it should also be regulated similarly to how the food industry is regulated here in Sweden to prevent spreading of disease, and it should also be subject to our other labor laws so people working as prostitutes can have the same benefits that the rest of us get. So I disagree with how Sweden views prostitution overall but I also think it is wrong to buy sex from a friend, especially a friend in need. We should take care of our friends not take advantage of them, I wouldn't buy a something that has sentimental value like a family heirloom from a friend in need either and just give them as much money as I could afford or make them work for it in some other way instead.

If we take a look at how western culture overall views prostitution the conclusion is that most of western population lives in countries where buying sex is i illegal so in those countries it is considered to be morally wrong. All of those countries are democracies, we have The US (except Nevada where it is legal in some places), Andorra, Lichtenstein San Marino, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Lithuania, Greenland and Gibraltar banning prostitution outright, with Sweden, Norway, Iceland France, Ireland and Canada making the act buying sex illegal, so if buying sex would be considered to morally right bans should have been lifted when the UN Secretary-General urged all countries to do so. I believe that the act of buying sex from a friend would also be considered morally wrong since it is not accepted to buy sex from strangers.

Morality is how individuals and groups of people, communities and cultures thinks how we should live at an individual level so based on that we judge people based on how they act. Now I might think he is wrong buying sex from a friend, but if he were in Germany it would be legally OK for him to buy sex, however individuals and communities in Germany might think it is wrong for him to buy sex from a friend despite Germany as a whole being alright with it since there is no law against it. Now lets say he lived in North Carolina where prostitution is illegal and thus it would be wrong buying sex. However lets say that the individuals and communities within North Carolina thinks that he is doing the right thing because he is helping out a friend but over all they think prostitution morally wrong, so he can be morally wrong and right at the same time depending on where he is, what the circumstances are and who is judging him.

The question should really be does the ACF community think he is right? Then we should debate this some more and have a poll to see where people stand on the issue. When he has decided on an action we can judge him based on that action both as individuals and as a group.

 

[briandf255]

I think there is a big step up from a girl having sex with someone she knows in exchange for money/help (such as a friend or someone else she may be attracted to) to prostitution as a "job" (with strangers), so I think it's important to keep in mind what this situation is about.

Some people already start with a "selling your body is degrading" bias and they cannot imagine anyone doing it except out of desperation and as a last resort, in which case anyone who buys sex would appear to be taking advantage of a person desperately in need of help. But.... Maybe this woman offered the OP this deal because she doesn't want to get something for nothing and then feel like she's accepting handouts. Some people have too much pride to sell their bodies and some people have too much pride to accept something without giving something in return and end up feeling like they are depending on the charity of others.

Maybe she really wouldn't mind this arrangement. Maybe she wants to feel more like she's performing a job rather than begging for money. I don't think she would have made this offer to the OP if she was repulsed by the idea of having sex with him.

The only thing that bothers me is the suicide angle, because if what she told the OP is true that does mean she's not doing well emotionally.

 

[Chojin]

I’d rather have a wank than pay for sex.

 

[Chojin]

The stigma around STI's is ridiculous You realize that using a condom protects you from the serious STDs and stis but the most common ones, like HPV and HSV can be contacted from skin to skin contact lol. Like over 70% of the population has one or both.. Always use protection but if you think the only way you're going to get one of those is from a sex worker lol just wow. Time to go back to health class and read some cold hard facts. #realitycheck

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

 

[Mintx]

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

hahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahah oh my fucking god. It is too fucking early for whorephobic shit- why the actual single fuck are you in this thread, on this website? There's just so many things wrong with this absolute fucking trash.

 

[CharlieCharma]

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

Listen dude, there was zero reason to bring up stds here. We are all adults, we have the ability and knowledge needed to have safe sex. It added nothing productive to the conversation. It's just whorephobic bullshit from a really uneducated place. If you'd rather go wank one out than pay for sex, that's fine, but your "enjoy your stds" shaming bullshit just comes off as bitter.

 

[Emberblaze]

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

Sex workers are less likely to spread HIV because sex workers are more likely to get regular testing than uninformed whorephobic asses like yourself that believe they are instantly safe if they only sleep with non sex workers.

What I'm trying to say is we've all had enough of your whorephobic garbage on a forum full of sex workers.

 

[Chojin]

Yeah, I was just fucking around with the OP (sahi) CharlieCharma.

Sorry if I offended. Also, I didn't think cam girls were 'sex workers'. I love cam girls and there's nothing wrong with being a sex worker if someone wants to be anyway

 

[GoddessValkyrieRose]

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

I caught an std from my fiancé when I thought I was in a monogamous relationship haha!! You seriously need a reality check. The only way you're going to be 100% safe from STDs is to never have sex with anyone and also don't kiss anyone cause coldsores? That's HSV1 and that is a sexually transmitted disease. It's also possible to catch it from sharing drinks, food and other items .. So ..ya kinda makes you feel like an ass now? Enjoy your STDs?? Enjoy living in denial. Just ugh.. I'm so sick of this kind of bs.. Disgusting

 

[SaffronBurke]

I was thinking of HIV. If a condom splits in a healthy monogamous relationship, you only have to worry about the morning after pill. If promiscuity is at play then there's more chance of unintentionally contracting HIV. The reason for the promiscuity is irrelevant.

You're worried about HIV in a world where we have PrEP and PEP? There are literally medications that you can take to prevent contracting HIV if you *might* be exposed in the future and if you *were* exposed recently. Enough with the fear-mongering, it's not the 80's anymore, HIV/AIDS isn't a death sentence like it used to be.

 

[Emberblaze]

She's probably sleeping with other men for money too.

Enjoy your STDs

In case anyone unsure about whether chojin is being whorephobic and slut shamey or not as they back peddle let me just go back to this quote.

 

[Chojin]

So ..ya kinda makes you feel like an ass now?

Yeah