JoleneBrody said:
Isabella_deL said:
I think the US may have a very different definition of the word "punk" to what they have in england... It's amazing really because if you look online for the definitions of both iggy pop and velvet underground (which were the original bands mentioned) it says they aren't punk. And even though the word proto-punk has the word punk in it, the word pretty much means "not-punk". Proto punk is NOT post punk. I don't really understand why a few of you are getting so angry about it as I don't mean it as an insult against the music. It just isn't punk and doesn't consider itself punk.
I can only assume that the word "punk" has a different meaning to you than it does to me. For me it certifies a certain type of music that by nature is loud, aggressive with a certain beat to it and is generally political by nature. And then of course the movement which again is political, anti-establishment and all about rebelling.
A band not being those things is no insult, but it seems that a lot of people here see that not calling something "punk" is some sort of insult. What's amazing is while you are telling me off for labelling things you are arguing to keep the label and acting very upset at the idea of certain bands not being allowed to have that label. If those labels don't matter then why do you really care?
I really can't be bothered to continue having this conversation, we clearly have very different ideas of what the word means. JJ you may have grown up in the modern punk scene with old punk rockers, but so did I. Being british, punk is a part of my history. We are taught it in detail in school and college. My best friend through school was a hardcore punk and was passionate about all the cultures and sub cultures, what she learned, I learned. I can only assume that the culture in the US is different to what it is in the UK.
Maybe this is part of why I find this so annoying, is that Americans seem far more aware of the punk movement on a global scale than in the UK, It wasn't just in England. Things Manifested in their own way there but they were happening at the very same time in it's own way here. The street punk fashion absolutely was born in England and spread, but we aren't talking about a clothing type and fashion... we are talking about music.
More specifically a nice girl has discovered the joy of the likes of 'X' and 'Iggy' and wants to hear more like it, instead of elevating her and helping by sharing your favorites that have a similar Iggy sound (he IS the godfather of Punk for a reason, after all) Isabelle, you came in with the soul purpose of picking her apart like a bully, literally, you're post served zero purpose other than to 'correct' her. Your need to have your genres kept neat and tidy was incredibly rude and down right deflating to the OP.
That was my number one problem with this whole discussion. That elitist attitude that acts like a snobbish high school table of girls who wont let anyone sit at their table. Their are very few local punk scenes left in this world who haven't been infected by this icky disease. I was lucky to grow up in one of the best small communities on the west coast and for me, the punk rock community and scene is supposed to be far more like a loving commune than a snobby yacht club.
Jolene, I seriously didn't want an argument with you. So I apologise if I came across as a fucktard. I wasn't saying I dislike any of the bands I mentioned, in fact I like most of them, and love Blink 182, I'm enjoying the links everyone is posting. I also don't think being punk has anything to do with chart placement! Sorry if my views seem 'elitist punk' and the attitude comes across as an icky disease! All I can say that is if you have come across this attitude before, there must be a few people who believe it, so for some it is a valid point of view. I'm not saying it's a popular one, just a belief held by some.
I think Isabella is right and that the English view of Punk is different from the US, and that's where the contention is coming from. I'm in Australia though, so hopefully have a global view! I of course think there are punk bands form every corner of the world.
JoleneBrody said:
the punk rock community and scene is supposed to be far more like a loving commune than a snobby yacht club.
You see, I guess it's more this I can't reconcile with what I have knows as punk culture. The situation you describe is brilliant and a wonderful, and I'm sure was amazing to be part of. But neither 'loving commune' or 'snobby yacht club' is close to how I would describe the punk movement.
Anarchy and rebellion born from poverty and not much hope for the future, and hatred of just about everything - society, media, governments, parents, life. A fast, hard, angry music being a release from the hardships of life. I would not wish anyone to have to live in the kind of society I'm talking about. Of course you can play the exact same style of music, but can't you see how people that lived through that might get upset when others say 'Oh, I'm a punk'? It's kind of an oxymoron isn't it, the people who say they lived the worst of life, now being called elitist. I luckily have never lived like that myself, but have had it described to me a few times from old rockers that did live it.
JoleneBrody said:
we aren't talking about a clothing type and fashion... we are talking about music.
Again here is where we are having a misunderstanding. I am looking at punk holistically as a cultural epoch rather than just a style of music, though I guess you are to, to some extent if you are saying how the punk rock community and scene are suppose to behave. Can I ask, how exactly do you view, or would you describe the Punk movement I am talking about? For me it is 'Punk', and everything outside this is a subset, or split off from the genre. Again, so you don't take offence, I am not saying that any of the subsets are bad, just different.
If you have every read or seen the movie High Fidelity, that is a big chunk of my life - some of it uncannily so. So yes, in some ways I would be the Comic Book Guy of music to you. But that is a huge compliment to me, not an insult. So I am looking at this as someone outside the scene, that has intimate knowledge of it from dealing for decades with people who live it and have an amazing passion for it. People love and are passionate for every conceivable style of music, but I have to say that nothing quite matches the level of passion and dedication I have seen for Punk movement.