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~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you think)

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This is a post I have been waiting months to post. I have been so hesitant because it is a topic that I think has the potential to become heated, and turn into something I would be sorry I brought up. So, in that light can I ask that we avoid letting it blow up? (I may well be concerned over nothing, I love heated, passionate, discourse, but hate when it turns to anger directed at people rather than ideas.)

"Politically Correct" is a term that has lost its spot as a media buzz word it seems, but the concept is still very much alive. I have spent some time going through many internet definitions of Politically Correct.
merriam-webster defines it as: conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated.

And the free dictionary by Farlax gives it two definitions 1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
And list a second as 2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.

As a concept that we do not offend others I am all for it. That we teach our children what things might be offensive, I am also good with. What I have a problem with is that it seems that many times the way people are applying these concerns are not based on common sense, but rather as some rigid format that there never be certain words used in any context, or other words in certain context. This to me makes no sense for a few reasons.

1: If we exclude certain words from our vocabulary in some contexts, or completely, and relegate them to a list of condemned words, is there any way to logically justify that? Maybe there is I don't know. What I do know is there are certain times when for instance, it makes sense to refer to a group of men, as a group of black men. (when that group of black men get into a conflict with a group of other men of some other racial classification, and it is relevant because it has the makeup of a racial conflict, or when that group of men are singled out by police when leaving a night club in a prominently white section of town. In both these cases I think defining the group of men as a group of black men makes sense.)

2: if we teach our children that certain things are never said because those are the rules, rather than explaining why we should not say some things, we are not teaching them anything about the justice of equality of races, genders, orientation, ppl.

3: It would be nice to believe everyone, except for a handful of kkk holdouts, or a few corporate elitist chauvinist, or homophobic religious extremest, were all that remained of the bigots in our midst, but that is not the case. I do not want those ppl who have issues to be forced to hold their tongue everywhere but in secret when they are certain no one is listening. I want them to feel they can voice there bigotry so they are exposed for what they are, and so there is some chance of influencing them to reexamine their views.

Bottom line I feel like a strict adherence to the guides that many advocate in the effort to be Politically Correct, is to, "ignore it and it will go away", or, "if we all behave as if there are no issues, then there wont be any"

In closing I want to tell about a picnic I went to some years ago. I did something that day that to this day I am not sure about. I tell you this because it is how I approach PC when faced with having to make the choice of PCing up, or being real.

I went with my white GF, we had been invited be a close friend of ours, who happened to be black. The picnic was very cool, lots of kids running around, good food, and made to feel very comfortable. We were the only white ppl there except for one other lady. It was a big group, but I wasn't trippin, and got no bad vibes from anyone. An hour or so after everyone ate a soft ball game stared and pretty soon everyone was around the ball game. At one point I was asked to play, but because of my bad foot I opted out. we watched the first 4 innings or so, and told our friend we were going to go and thanked him and some of the others right there. As we started to walk off one of the guys yelled from the field, " Oh so you just came for the fried chicken" there was no tone of anything other than joking in his voice. I took a second to reply, thinking, what to say. What I yelled back was, "not just the chicken, figured the watermelon would be good too." I heard a few muffled laughs, and I yelled, "It was all good, thank you" To this day I believe there was nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure there was not. All I am sure of, is that the idea that we don't first and foremost be who we are, and instead behave by strict rules that cause us to be less than honest, or act in some way that is not our true self, is not the way home.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

This is a post I have been waiting months to post. I have been so hesitant because it is a topic that I think has the potential to become heated, and turn into something I would be sorry I brought up. So, in that light can I ask that we avoid letting it blow up? (I may well be concerned over nothing, I love heated, passionate, discourse, but hate when it turns to anger directed at people rather than ideas.)

Oh , I suspect it will blow up at some point.

Political correctness is a fantastic Idea, and I am all for it. It would be nice if we could trust people to use their own judgement, but everyone has a different idea of what is right or "common sense" so things can get out of hand.

The same applies to political correctness. It is a line than separates out acceptable from unacceptable, its rarely where everyone thinks it should be, but somewhere around the right spot is fine.

What is often mistaken for political correctness is defensive policies intended to avoid litigation. In a world where every fucknuckle sues every fucknuckle, a lot of "policies" are to avoid future litigation rather than for anything meaningful. The no touching and most of the pre school regulations people complain about are there to protect the school from litigation, not enhance the development of the kids. It would be nice if most of these regulations were on the books but got ignored day to day because the staff and principle have the good sense to see they are too extreme, but they give the school the tools to deal with exceptional situations.

As an aside, my best friend's little girl - who is five - is having a terrible time in pre-school because of old issues at home (being hit by her father for no reason) recently decked a teacher and gave her a black eye. It took two other teachers to restrain her afterwards. The principle told the parents " look after your little girl, the welfare of teachers is my responsibility"
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Red7227 said:
Oh , I suspect it will blow up at some point.
NO this was me thinking out loud I suppose. I had been talking to someone via PM about this idea and about the time we started they left, and have not been back, so that was why the wait.

And, yes as a concept I am all for it. What I fear is that in personal relationship it causes ppl to be too uptight and shuts down lines of communication, that's all. That is not to say I think the idea is wrong.
 
Jan 9, 2011
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

gotta take this in chunks so bear with me
camstory said:
As a concept that we do not offend others I am all for it. That we teach our children what things might be offensive, I am also good with. What I have a problem with is that it seems that many times the way people are applying these concerns are not based on common sense, but rather as some rigid format that there never be certain words used in any context, or other words in certain context. This to me makes no sense for a few reasons.

1: If we exclude certain words from our vocabulary in some contexts, or completely, and relegate them to a list of condemned words, is there any way to logically justify that? Maybe there is I don't know. What I do know is there are certain times when for instance, it makes sense to refer to a group of men, as a group of black men. (when that group of black men get into a conflict with a group of other men of some other racial classification, and it is relevant because it has the makeup of a racial conflict, or when that group of men are singled out by police when leaving a night club in a prominently white section of town. In both these cases I think defining the group of men as a group of black men makes sense.)

in short, no. in long, well its might get long lol.
banning or ridding ourselves of specific words is useless in the long run. even hateful words have their use in limited circumstances. while i prefer to use specific ethnic terms rather than more general ones, sometimes it just takes too much time. explaining why a group of latinos is actually three guatemalans, a venezuelan and two brazilians is just a pain in the rear. ever broad "racial" group is usually comprised of several ethnicities.
yes, us crackers too. im mostly germanic and irish. that could also be called celtic/gallic/teutonic. my genetics and visage differ a lot from the scandanavian peoples, which differ from eastern european, and so on. but if we live in america we're pretty much just white folk.
the same goes for black folk too, though since most african americans dont have geneologies that trace back to their original ethnic roots they too get stuck with just a skin color based designation. (an inaccurate one at that.. hello? black? how many black black people do you know? i only know two and theyre from ethiopia and immgrated here not 10 years ago)
that designation ignores the 100 odd tribal and ethnic groupings that were brought over as slaves. each of those groups is as distinct in facial features, height, and culture as any european grouping.

alas, generalities are needed for conversational purposes, and we all are americans (ignoring the other countries for this specific discussion, sorry my cannuck and limey friends :)) so tagging the broadest possible tag along with american seems to be acceptable for most folk. be it irish, african, chinese or whatever american

now here in the states we have this odd thing between white and black folk. racism isnt what im talking about here. im just talking about how those of us that arent filled with ignorance and hate get stuck with dealing with each other. i know about 20 black folk that get pissed if you call them african american instead of black. and i know about 30 that go the other way. our two big groups are still feeling out how we refer to each other. is cracker an insult or not? is whitey? ask 10 people get 10 answers down here in the south.

and as far as the "n" word goes that has been changing so much so fast i cant keep track! i used to hang with a group of younger guys, black, white and a couple of hispanics. they all called each other the n word, regardless of their skin color. blew my mind! the first time i heard this chubby white kid call a black kid that and not get his butt whupped i literally fell down. apparently some of the younger generation have taken the reclaiming of that word so far that it really truly is a word of affection and bonding within their groups, regardless of race.

on that note ill finish this part of my response with a track they played for me that changed my thoughts and feelings on the word and how we look at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhp3KWMEhJU
 
Jan 9, 2011
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

camstory said:
2: if we teach our children that certain things are never said because those are the rules, rather than explaining why we should not say some things, we are not teaching them anything about the justice of equality of races, genders, orientation, ppl.

3: It would be nice to believe everyone, except for a handful of kkk holdouts, or a few corporate elitist chauvinist, or homophobic religious extremest, were all that remained of the bigots in our midst, but that is not the case. I do not want those ppl who have issues to be forced to hold their tongue everywhere but in secret when they are certain no one is listening. I want them to feel they can voice there bigotry so they are exposed for what they are, and so there is some chance of influencing them to reexamine their views.

on point 2: i agree completely... i know ive told the story of my experience with the n word and how a false explanation from my parents sort of blew up in my face. if my folks had just sat me down and explained the real situation, let me know that some people are just backwards and dumb then i could have gone on without incident lol. sheltering kids sounds like a good idea, but the truth is that innocence is not some holy state, it is just a state of not knowing. and as the PSA said, knowledge is power.

on point 3: im pretty damn rigid in my belief that even idiots have the right to prove how dumb they are. it is sort of an american idea that free speech is a basic right to all people, but a frenchman said it best: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". voltaire was ahead of his time in a lot of ways.
only by seeing and hearing the patently ridiculous ideas of racism can we truly eradicate the belief in them. in that regard im usually glad when some bigot speaks up. it gives the rest of us a chance to discuss it and reaffirm how wrong it is.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I try my best to be "politically correct" in the sense that I check my behaviour to make sure I'm not making anybody feel like shit.
Thats it. It doesnt make me feel all big and tough to go shouting the N word or calling things "gay" in public. yes, I have the FREEDOM to do those things, but I choose to behave in a way that doesnt make other people uncomfortable, and I generally expect the same from others.

Bailin' from the thread now :handgestures-salute:
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

camstory said:
Bottom line I feel like a strict adherence to the guides that many advocate in the effort to be Politically Correct, is to, "ignore it and it will go away", or, "if we all behave as if there are no issues, then there wont be any"
this is the first part that i can disagree with, and only in part. that part being that the original intent of PC speech was to shift the mindset into a more accepting and equalized form. if a majority of people use a term, and accept the mindset behind it, then the idea that the word refers to shifts as well. it was meant to be a ay of not ignoring a problem, but to address the problem by change in speech. it went too far and got confused, but that was why it started back in the 70s.


camstory said:
In closing I want to tell about a picnic I went to some years ago. I did something that day that to this day I am not sure about. I tell you this because it is how I approach PC when faced with having to make the choice of PCing up, or being real.

I went with my white GF, we had been invited be a close friend of ours, who happened to be black. The picnic was very cool, lots of kids running around, good food, and made to feel very comfortable. We were the only white ppl there except for one other lady. It was a big group, but I wasn't trippin, and got no bad vibes from anyone. An hour or so after everyone ate a soft ball game stared and pretty soon everyone was around the ball game. At one point I was asked to play, but because of my bad foot I opted out. we watched the first 4 innings or so, and told our friend we were going to go and thanked him and some of the others right there. As we started to walk off one of the guys yelled from the field, " Oh so you just came for the fried chicken" there was no tone of anything other than joking in his voice. I took a second to reply, thinking, what to say. What I yelled back was, "not just the chicken, figured the watermelon would be good too." I heard a few muffled laughs, and I yelled, "It was all good, thank you" To this day I believe there was nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure there was not. All I am sure of, is that the idea that we don't first and foremost be who we are, and instead behave by strict rules that cause us to be less than honest, or act in some way that is not our true self, is not the way home.


now this part is just my take on it, colored by being a southerner who grew up in a neighborhood where there were maybe a dozen white folk in a three mile radius, including me and my family. if you hang around with an ethnic group it is polite to accept them and partake in their social mores. so if the people you were with thought it funny to poke a hole in the whole "fried chicken" stereotype, then playing with that stereotype yourself is well within the bounds of acceptable behavior.

i have lost count of the number of times that this exact phrase has been used around here: "well yeah i like watermelon and fried chicken, who doesnt?" and isnt that just the damn truth? watermelon is sooo yummy and sweet! fried chicken? i dont know a southerner that dislikes it.

me and one of the guys i ran with as a teenager just loved to go out and mess with people. me and him would go into a grocery store, hit the deli and the produce section and take the chicken and watermelon up to the register. when we got there he would look at me and say "damn cracker, you must have some n word in the woodpile back in the day" my response was always "yeah, my grandpappy and your grandma had some fun after the cotton was picked" we planned it out one night while discussing why we always got such stares from the old folks when we were out and about. back in the late 80s the two of us being friends and going out in public together was not a common thing, so we decided to have some fun with it instead of just getting mad.

now, if you didnt know me and sam it sounds absolutely horrible, but we both had a weird sense of humor. and the responses we got from people around us was astoundingly funny to us. everything from me almost getting my ass kicked twice, to finding hidden racists who just had to laugh and give me kudos in whispers. most of the time all we got was jaws gaping and gasps of shock.
even after we would start cackling like idiots and walk out with our lunch slapping each other on the back some folks just didnt get that we were pulling a prank on them.
it may help the scene a little to know that i was almost as big then as i am now... 6 foot and 225 then, and sammy was 6'4 and around 300 of mostly muscle. so most of the time the poor cashiers thought they were going to see a throwdown of epic proportions. we played it up all angry teenagerish and had our chests all puffed up and all. dumber than dammit really, but since it was me and him doing it, it was ok.
if either of us had said the exact same thing to someone else it would have been rude, dangerous and extra stupid. lord knows we caught hell around the neighborhood when his mom found out we were doing it. her generation just did not find it funny at all (and can you blame them?). they thought for sure we were going to cause a riot sometime when we pulled it. heck im sort of surprised it never caused more than a threat or two throw our way.

the point is that individuals can say or do anything they want with each other. if they want to make fun of racist stereotypes like me and sammy did, then awesome. but i can fully understand how some of the people who witnessed our little joke might not have been happy, and as an adult i would not repeat it. it could have caused hurt feelings and stirred up bad things for others. i claim teenage stupidity as my excuse on that one. i sure dont recommend that kind of joke being done randomly even today when the tension is much lower than it was then.

in any case im just super happy that the two groups of european and african descent are finally getting to the point where we can look at the subject and talk about it together and figure out what is and is not acceptable instead of just feeling bad that there is a problem. in some small part i think that PC speech helped that along. first by changing the way we view words when they apply to people and second by causing a blowback against PC speech and letting entertainers like dave chappel show us a new way to think about things.

now i know i really only touched on the racial side of things, but the principle applies to any of the other hot button issues like gender, sex, and sexual orientation. we go through a period where we change how we speak, which changes how we think, then the real dialogue starts.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I always think of the term "politically correct" in a negative way, like you're just doing to appease people but you're resentful of it. Maybe I just associate it with people complaining about having to be PC, or calling me the PC police, haha.

Anyway, I agree with Jessi - I don't want to say things that hurt people or make them uncomfortable. And I don't think it's ever really my place to say "oh it's just a joke" or "it's just a WORD" about things that don't affect me. Like, I'm white so I don't feel I can say those things about race issues, just like I don't think a straight person could accurately say them about queer issues. And I will absolutely call my friends (or strangers) out if they say shitty things, because I think accountability is a huge thing - people will say racist things in private to other white people because they assume everyone agrees, but I don't, so I'll tell them. Same with sexist/classist/whatever comments. (I remember reading a study about how rapists will assume that other men are also rapists if they laugh along with rape jokes - makes me think about how people assume I think if I don't say otherwise.)
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I completely HATE the idea of being "politically correct". To me, it means putting a likeable spin on what you're saying or treading lightly to avoid offending anyone. There are words I avoid because I find them unnecessary (not many, :lol: ), but that is just personal preference and being a decent human being. If you're a decent human, communication shouldn't be a minefield that needs gentle navigation. If you're the kind of person who is harboring things you don't want other people to notice, then being "politically correct" might veil it. I'd rather people say what they mean without trying to sound acceptable.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

JickyJuly said:
I completely HATE the idea of being "politically correct". To me, it means putting a likeable spin on what you're saying or treading lightly to avoid offending anyone. There are words I avoid because I find them unnecessary (not many, :lol: ), but that is just personal preference and being a decent human being. If you're a decent human, communication shouldn't be a minefield that needs gentle navigation. If you're the kind of person who is harboring things you don't want other people to notice, then being "politically correct" might veil it. I'd rather people say what they mean without trying to sound acceptable.

(I know I said I was bailing but I feel like I really need to clarify)
I really hope I didnt come off like I was censoring my deep urges to use slurs on people :? I'm not like that at all.
I was raised to treat everyone with respect and taught differences like race are sexuality are irrelevant to one's worth as a person. And I reflect that in my language and the way I conduct myself. It just comes naturally
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Jessi said:
JickyJuly said:
I completely HATE the idea of being "politically correct". To me, it means putting a likeable spin on what you're saying or treading lightly to avoid offending anyone. There are words I avoid because I find them unnecessary (not many, :lol: ), but that is just personal preference and being a decent human being. If you're a decent human, communication shouldn't be a minefield that needs gentle navigation. If you're the kind of person who is harboring things you don't want other people to notice, then being "politically correct" might veil it. I'd rather people say what they mean without trying to sound acceptable.

(I know I said I was bailing but I feel like I really need to clarify)
I really hope I didnt come off like I was censoring my deep urges to use slurs on people :? I'm not like that at all.
I was raised to treat everyone with respect and taught differences like race are sexuality are irrelevant to one's worth as a person. And I reflect that in my language and the way I conduct myself. It just comes naturally
I didn't mean you, silly! No one as hot as you could possibly be bad. :lol: :shifty: I just meant devious people who are hiding behind the idea of politically correct language.
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Here's my view. The term "politically correct" has negative connotations to me because it brings to mind silly rigid rules about terminology created by people mostly worried about covering their own asses. That said, I do think a degree of care is called for in how one refers to people. I agree with Jessi that it should be common courtesy not to make a habit of saying things that are going to make people feel like shit.

It should not be a matter of having to walk on eggshells, but if it's that hard to speak without giving offense, perhaps some introspection is in order. I try not to say things that imply negative traits about groups of people. Some idiot is going to believe it's true and spread the hate. If it's stuff that's harmless, I don't mind so much. If someone assumed I liked pudding, I'd just giggle. If someone assumed I was a thief, I'd be quite offended.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I blame all this PC bovine excrement on the Canadians.

TOTALLY kidding ;)

I have yet to meet a Canadian I didn't like and pretty sure they can still say "Merry Christmas" without getting the occasional stink eye.

I don't know where it started, but when every kid needs a trophy regardless of whether he or she sucks or not, is when I first got got wind of it. Then came the fight over someone having an American flag in their office followed by the "Holiday" tree and most recently the "Holiday" bunny nonsense.

Where has common sense gone?

The following is from one right winger's ramblings and quite possibly contains tidbits of truth to it.

YOMV

The Origins of Political Correctness
Bill Lind, February 5, 2000

An Accuracy in Academia Address by Bill Lind

Variations of this speech have been delivered to various AIA conferences including the 2000 Consevative University at American University

Where does all this stuff that you’ve heard about this morning – the victim feminism, the gay rights movement, the invented statistics, the rewritten history, the lies, the demands, all the rest of it – where does it come from? For the first time in our history, Americans have to be fearful of what they say, of what they write, and of what they think. They have to be afraid of using the wrong word, a word denounced as offensive or insensitive, or racist, sexist, or homophobic.

We have seen other countries, particularly in this century, where this has been the case. And we have always regarded them with a mixture of pity, and to be truthful, some amusement, because it has struck us as so strange that people would allow a situation to develop where they would be afraid of what words they used. But we now have this situation in this country. We have it primarily on college campuses, but it is spreading throughout the whole society. Were does it come from? What is it?

We call it “Political Correctness.” The name originated as something of a joke, literally in a comic strip, and we tend still to think of it as only half-serious. In fact, it’s deadly serious. It is the great disease of our century, the disease that has left tens of millions of people dead in Europe, in Russia, in China, indeed around the world. It is the disease of ideology. PC is not funny. PC is deadly serious.

If we look at it analytically, if we look at it historically, we quickly find out exactly what it is. Political Correctness is cultural Marxism. It is Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. It is an effort that goes back not to the 1960s and the hippies and the peace movement, but back to World War I. If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with classical Marxism the parallels are very obvious.

First of all, both are totalitarian ideologies. The totalitarian nature of Political Correctness is revealed nowhere more clearly than on college campuses, many of which at this point are small ivy covered North Koreas,where the student or faculty member who dares to cross any of the lines set up by the gender feminist or the homosexual-rights activists, or the local black or Hispanic group, or any of the other sainted “victims” groups that PC revolves around, quickly find themselves in judicial trouble. Within the small legal system of the college, they face formal charges – some star-chamber proceeding – and punishment. That is a little look into the future that Political Correctness intends for the nation as a whole.

Indeed, all ideologies are totalitarian because the essence of an ideology (I would note that conservatism correctly understood is not an ideology) is to take some philosophy and say on the basis of this philosophy certain things must be true – such as the whole of the history of our culture is the history of the oppression of women. Since reality contradicts that, reality must be forbidden. It must become forbidden to acknowledge the reality of our history. People must be forced to live a lie, and since people are naturally reluctant to live a lie, they naturally use their ears and eyes to look out and say, “Wait a minute. This isn’t true. I can see it isn’t true,” the power of the state must be put behind the demand to live a lie. That is why ideology invariably creates a totalitarian state.

Second, the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness, like economic Marxism, has a single factor explanation of history. Economic Marxism says that all of history is determined by ownership of means of production. Cultural Marxism, or Political Correctness, says that all history is determined by power, by which groups defined in terms of race, sex, etc., have power over which other groups. Nothing else matters. All literature, indeed, is about that. Everything in the past is about that one thing.

Third, just as in classical economic Marxism certain groups, i.e. workers and peasants, are a priori good, and other groups, i.e., the bourgeoisie and capital owners, are evil. In the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness certain groups are good – feminist women, (only feminist women, non-feminist women are deemed not to exist) blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals. These groups are determined to be “victims,” and therefore automatically good regardless of what any of them do. Similarly, white males are determined automatically to be evil, thereby becoming the equivalent of the bourgeoisie in economic Marxism.

Fourth, both economic and cultural Marxism rely on expropriation. When the classical Marxists, the communists, took over a country like Russia, they expropriated the bourgeoisie, they took away their property. Similarly, when the cultural Marxists take over a university campus, they expropriate through things like quotas for admissions. When a white student with superior qualifications is denied admittance to a college in favor of a black or Hispanic who isn’t as well qualified, the white student is expropriated. And indeed, affirmative action, in our whole society today, is a system of expropriation. White owned companies don’t get a contract because the contract is reserved for a company owned by, say, Hispanics or women. So expropriation is a principle tool for both forms of Marxism.

And finally, both have a method of analysis that automatically gives the answers they want. For the classical Marxist, it’s Marxist economics. For the cultural Marxist, it’s deconstruction. Deconstruction essentially takes any text, removes all meaning from it and re-inserts any meaning desired. So we find, for example, that all of Shakespeare is about the suppression of women, or the Bible is really about race and gender. All of these texts simply become grist for the mill, which proves that “all history is about which groups have power over which other groups.” So the parallels are very evident between the classical Marxism that we’re familiar with in the old Soviet Union and the cultural Marxism that we see today as Political Correctness.

But the parallels are not accidents. The parallels did not come from nothing. The fact of the matter is that Political Correctness has a history, a history that is much longer than many people are aware of outside a small group of academics who have studied this. And the history goes back, as I said, to World War I, as do so many of the pathologies that are today bringing our society, and indeed our culture, down.

Marxist theory said that when the general European war came (as it did come in Europe in 1914), the working class throughout Europe would rise up and overthrow their governments – the bourgeois governments – because the workers had more in common with each other across the national boundaries than they had in common with the bourgeoisie and the ruling class in their own country. Well, 1914 came and it didn’t happen. Throughout Europe, workers rallied to their flag and happily marched off to fight each other. The Kaiser shook hands with the leaders of the Marxist Social Democratic Party in Germany and said there are no parties now, there are only Germans. And this happened in every country in Europe. So something was wrong.

Marxists knew by definition it couldn’t be the theory. In 1917, they finally got a Marxist coup in Russia and it looked like the theory was working, but it stalled again. It didn’t spread and when attempts were made to spread immediately after the war, with the Spartacist uprising in Berlin, with the Bela Kun government in Hungary, with the Munich Soviet, the workers didn’t support them.

So the Marxists’ had a problem. And two Marxist theorists went to work on it: Antonio Gramsci in Italy and Georg Lukacs in Hungary. Gramsci said the workers will never see their true class interests, as defined by Marxism, until they are freed from Western culture, and particularly from the Christian religion – that they are blinded by culture and religion to their true class interests. Lukacs, who was considered the most brilliant Marxist theorist since Marx himself, said in 1919, “Who will save us from Western Civilization?” He also theorized that the great obstacle to the creation of a Marxist paradise was the culture: Western civilization itself.

Lukacs gets a chance to put his ideas into practice, because when the home grown Bolshevik Bela Kun government is established in Hungary in 1919, he becomes deputy commissar for culture, and the first thing he did was introduce sex education into the Hungarian schools. This ensured that the workers would not support the Bela Kun government, because the Hungarian people looked at this aghast, workers as well as everyone else. But he had already made the connection that today many of us are still surprised by, that we would consider the “latest thing.”

In 1923 in Germany, a think-tank is established that takes on the role of translating Marxism from economic into cultural terms, that creates Political Correctness as we know it today, and essentially it has created the basis for it by the end of the 1930s. This comes about because the very wealthy young son of a millionaire German trader by the name of Felix Weil has become a Marxist and has lots of money to spend. He is disturbed by the divisions among the Marxists, so he sponsors something called the First Marxist Work Week, where he brings Lukacs and many of the key German thinkers together for a week, working on the differences of Marxism.

And he says, “What we need is a think-tank.” Washington is full of think tanks and we think of them as very modern. In fact they go back quite a ways. He endows an institute, associated with Frankfurt University, established in 1923, that was originally supposed to be known as the Institute for Marxism. But the people behind it decided at the beginning that it was not to their advantage to be openly identified as Marxist. The last thing Political Correctness wants is for people to figure out it’s a form of Marxism. So instead they decide to name it the Institute for Social Research.

Weil is very clear about his goals. In 1971, he wrote to Martin Jay the author of a principle book on the Frankfurt School, as the Institute for Social Research soon becomes known informally, and he said, “I wanted the institute to become known, perhaps famous, due to its contributions to Marxism.” Well, he was successful. The first director of the Institute, Carl Grunberg, an Austrian economist, concluded his opening address, according to Martin Jay, “by clearly stating his personal allegiance to Marxism as a scientific methodology.” Marxism, he said, would be the ruling principle at the Institute, and that never changed.
The initial work at the Institute was rather conventional, but in 1930 it acquired a new director named Max Horkheimer, and Horkheimer’s views were very different. He was very much a Marxist renegade. The people who create and form the Frankfurt School are renegade Marxists. They’re still very much Marxist in their thinking, but they’re effectively run out of the party. Moscow looks at what they are doing and says, “Hey, this isn’t us, and we’re not going to bless this.”

Horkheimer’s initial heresy is that he is very interested in Freud, and the key to making the translation of Marxism from economic into cultural terms is essentially that he combined it with Freudism. Again, Martin Jay writes, “If it can be said that in the early years of its history, the Institute concerned itself primarily with an analysis of bourgeois society’s socio-economic sub-structure,” – and I point out that Jay is very sympathetic to the Frankfurt School, I’m not reading from a critic here – “in the years after 1930 its primary interests lay in its cultural superstructure. Indeed the traditional Marxist formula regarding the relationship between the two was brought into question by Critical Theory.”

The stuff we’ve been hearing about this morning – the radical feminism, the women’s studies departments, the gay studies departments, the black studies departments – all these things are branches of Critical Theory. What the Frankfurt School essentially does is draw on both Marx and Freud in the 1930s to create this theory called Critical Theory. The term is ingenious because you’re tempted to ask, “What is the theory?” The theory is to criticize. The theory is that the way to bring down Western culture and the capitalist order is not to lay down an alternative. They explicitly refuse to do that. They say it can’t be done, that we can’t imagine what a free society would look like (their definition of a free society). As long as we’re living under repression – the repression of a capitalistic economic order which creates (in their theory) the Freudian condition, the conditions that Freud describes in individuals of repression – we can’t even imagine it. What Critical Theory is about is simply criticizing. It calls for the most destructive criticism possible, in every possible way, designed to bring the current order down. And, of course, when we hear from the feminists that the whole of society is just out to get women and so on, that kind of criticism is a derivative of Critical Theory. It is all coming from the 1930s, not the 1960s.

Other key members who join up around this time are Theodore Adorno, and, most importantly, Erich Fromm and Herbert Marcuse. Fromm and Marcuse introduce an element which is central to Political Correctness, and that’s the sexual element. And particularly Marcuse, who in his own writings calls for a society of “polymorphous perversity,” that is his definition of the future of the world that they want to create. Marcuse in particular by the 1930s is writing some very extreme stuff on the need for sexual liberation, but this runs through the whole Institute. So do most of the themes we see in Political Correctness, again in the early 30s. In Fromm’s view, masculinity and femininity were not reflections of ‘essential’ sexual differences, as the Romantics had thought. They were derived instead from differences in life functions, which were in part socially determined.” Sex is a construct; sexual differences are a construct.

Another example is the emphasis we now see on environmentalism. “Materialism as far back as Hobbes had led to a manipulative dominating attitude toward nature.” That was Horkhemier writing in 1933 in Materialismus und Moral. “The theme of man’s domination of nature,” according to Jay, ” was to become a central concern of the Frankfurt School in subsequent years.” “Horkheimer’s antagonism to the fetishization of labor, (here’s were they’re obviously departing from Marxist orthodoxy) expressed another dimension of his materialism, the demand for human, sensual happiness.” In one of his most trenchant essays, Egoism and the Movement for Emancipation, written in 1936, Horkeimer “discussed the hostility to personal gratification inherent in bourgeois culture.” And he specifically referred to the Marquis de Sade, favorably, for his “protest…against asceticism in the name of a higher morality.”

How does all of this stuff flood in here? How does it flood into our universities, and indeed into our lives today? The members of the Frankfurt School are Marxist, they are also, to a man, Jewish. In 1933 the Nazis came to power in Germany, and not surprisingly they shut down the Institute for Social Research. And its members fled. They fled to New York City, and the Institute was reestablished there in 1933 with help from Columbia University. And the members of the Institute, gradually through the 1930s, though many of them remained writing in German, shift their focus from Critical Theory about German society, destructive criticism about every aspect of that society, to Critical Theory directed toward American society. There is another very important transition when the war comes. Some of them go to work for the government, including Herbert Marcuse, who became a key figure in the OSS (the predecessor to the CIA), and some, including Horkheimer and Adorno, move to Hollywood.

These origins of Political Correctness would probably not mean too much to us today except for two subsequent events. The first was the student rebellion in the mid-1960s, which was driven largely by resistance to the draft and the Vietnam War. But the student rebels needed theory of some sort. They couldn’t just get out there and say, “Hell no we won’t go,” they had to have some theoretical explanation behind it. Very few of them were interested in wading through Das Kapital. Classical, economic Marxism is not light, and most of the radicals of the 60s were not deep. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for our country today, and not just in the university, Herbert Marcuse remained in America when the Frankfurt School relocated back to Frankfurt after the war. And whereas Mr. Adorno in Germany is appalled by the student rebellion when it breaks out there – when the student rebels come into Adorno’s classroom, he calls the police and has them arrested – Herbert Marcuse, who remained here, saw the 60s student rebellion as the great chance. He saw the opportunity to take the work of the Frankfurt School and make it the theory of the New Left in the United States.

One of Marcuse’s books was the key book. It virtually became the bible of the SDS and the student rebels of the 60s. That book was Eros and Civilization. Marcuse argues that under a capitalistic order (he downplays the Marxism very strongly here, it is subtitled, A Philosophical Inquiry into Freud, but the framework is Marxist), repression is the essence of that order and that gives us the person Freud describes – the person with all the hang-ups, the neuroses, because his sexual instincts are repressed. We can envision a future, if we can only destroy this existing oppressive order, in which we liberate eros, we liberate libido, in which we have a world of “polymorphous perversity,” in which you can “do you own thing.” And by the way, in that world there will no longer be work, only play. What a wonderful message for the radicals of the mid-60s! They’re students, they’re baby-boomers, and they’ve grown up never having to worry about anything except eventually having to get a job. And here is a guy writing in a way they can easily follow. He doesn’t require them to read a lot of heavy Marxism and tells them everything they want to hear which is essentially, “Do your own thing,” “If it feels good do it,” and “You never have to go to work.” By the way, Marcuse is also the man who creates the phrase, “Make love, not war.” Coming back to the situation people face on campus, Marcuse defines “liberating tolerance” as intolerance for anything coming from the Right and tolerance for anything coming from the Left. Marcuse joined the Frankfurt School, in 1932 (if I remember right). So, all of this goes back to the 1930s.

In conclusion, America today is in the throes of the greatest and direst transformation in its history. We are becoming an ideological state, a country with an official state ideology enforced by the power of the state. In “hate crimes” we now have people serving jail sentences for political thoughts. And the Congress is now moving to expand that category ever further. Affirmative action is part of it. The terror against anyone who dissents from Political Correctness on campus is part of it. It’s exactly what we have seen happen in Russia, in Germany, in Italy, in China, and now it’s coming here. And we don’t recognize it because we call it Political Correctness and laugh it off. My message today is that it’s not funny, it’s here, it’s growing and it will eventually destroy, as it seeks to destroy, everything that we have ever defined as our freedom and our culture.
 
Aug 14, 2011
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I blame all this PC bovine excrement on the Canadians.
¼second :eek: then :lol:
 

MrTrenchcoat

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Political correctness. In theory, I'm all for it, treat others with respect and such. In practice, not so much.
The issue is that it is an issue. I regularly, and intentionally, take a non-PC word and use it in a way that is correct with the original meaning, rather than the meaning associated with it. For example, today I mentioned I felt a bit queer crying when I listened to Pie Jesu, in this case meaning strange.

I think it's more how we use the words, rather than the words themselves. Banning the word entirely because one can use it offensively just ends in all words banned, I can insult people by calling them a couch, or a table. While not commonly used, can you imagine if any of those were? Not being able to call a table a table for fear of offending someone, or getting kicked out?

True, there is an enormous difference between that and, for example, the bigoted meaning of spade. That said, if I was told off for calling a spade a spade since the word can be used in an incredibly non-PC way, I'd spend the next hour or two explaining why a spade is not a shovel...Then I'd probably beat someone over the head with it.

You know, the only times I've been told off for using non-PC words, especially in front of the people they refer to, is when a white person hears it. Usually middle aged, too. White people don't know how racism feels, unless they go to a place white people don't usually go, complete with the fear and hatred that follows the unknown. Perhaps it's fear again, fear of being attacked by these people if we potentially insult them, or we just like to get offended on someone else's behalf.

People are fucking weird. But hey, maybe everyone is actually offended all the time by my behaviour, they just don't say it because I'm a big guy...But I can read people pretty well, usually it's used either in yarn-spinning, or in jest.


Tl;dr, I don't mind Political Correctness. If it goes too far, then I have an issue with it.
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I can't quite formulate everything I'd like to write on this, now, and probably won't because my mind seems to be drifting everywhere lately. But I will say this: things like "n-word," the act of taking a little ball of shit and covering in a nice candy shell? They don't work. Seriously, I find "n-word" to be every bit as offensive as "nigger." It's censorship, but rather than completely blocking out the idea and all the shit associated with that epithet, the act erects a giant blinking neon sign that only serves to draw attention. It really gets to me when someone is quoting another. I get the word, itself, is bad; we shouldn't shy away from that. But I've always thought that using little cover-ups like this do nothing to change that, do nothing to hide that, and do absolutely nothing to help.

If you find yourself saying "n-word," maybe try and figure out why that word even needs to be said. Again, if quoting someone, you aren't saying it, they did. But if you're using it to replace the word nigger in your own statement, why the fuck are you using that word?! I've heard people (idiots) do this: "He is such an n-word!"

Merely changing the word does nothing; if anything it may enhance the problem. Context is far more important, in my opinion.

This seems relevant: http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/ ... ggot_.html

And this, oddly enough: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/opinion/n ... =allsearch

The second one was rather surprising as I just listened to Lexicon Valley, and I don't remember if it was that episode or another, but they mention an old senate debate wherein Republicans are arguing for "wetbacks" to be allowed into the US so they can work the fields. Maybe it happened in the house, either way, I didn't realize that term was still so wide-spread.
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I generally only hear the words "Politically Correct" when someone's trying to degrade what I'm saying. As though being PC is a terrible thing and makes someone boring and "in the system" because they aren't going out offending people and breaking laws. I'm probably one of the least boring people ever, I have never been able to work "the system" and have always been outside it. I have broken laws, but all in all I do have a strong sense of right and wrong, I do follow laws as a whole, not usually intentionally, but just because most of them are common sense and I have grown up with those laws it's just nature. Now if someone's going to call me PC and treat it like a bad thing... well, I do worry about their morals a bit. I am pretty live and let lives except when it comes to potentially harming others and generally damaging the world. The things I am against are also generally illegal in most countries. I don't believe in offending others for no real reason. In fact, even if you have reasons, there's one thing stating your opinion and having a discussion about it, and it's another thing if your opinion is seriously offensive and you're putting it about in a nasty way. You can never go through life not offending anyone, but you can be tactful about it and not deliberately stir up trouble.
Abiding by laws, caring about others and having good grammar really isn't a bad thing. So essentially I don't think being politically correct is a bad thing either. I would hope most people would be.
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I have seen politically corectness go way too far, but I've also seen it not be used enough. But then, i learned about the "politically correct" fairy tales when I was a kid and thought they were hilarious! I remember thinking it was ridiculous to have to use "police officer" instead of "policeman" and "firefighter" instead of "fireman." I remember being called out for calling my roommate in high school "black", told I need to call her an african american, when she's not American. What do you call a black african? There are white africans. And my POINT in saying it was that she doesn't like basket ball but was required to join the women's team because she's black and she's tall (it was a small school so there was always trouble getting enough athletes for the teams).

I also remember when the religious stuff started being banned. It actually started with the idea that government organizations shouldn't display religious items unless they'll display all regligions. Basically, the government was being too Christian, when our government is not supposed to be religious. So they sued about having christmas decorations in the courthouses. To me, that was reasonable. But then it went further, to where they were saying any public place can't have it. Sorry, but what? No, it's not supposed to be there in our government, but if a store owner celebrates Christmas they damn well better be able to celebrate that holiday publicly!

Mostly, my friends have always made fun of the politically correct culture. We feel like it shouldn't be an issue. We joke about sex, race, religion, and all that stuff. But then, my friends also judge a person by their openness to new ideas. Seriously, that's how we judge people. Are you open to new ideas? Then you're an awesome person. Are you closed-minded? Get out of my world! (that's their view, mine is "let me try to open your mind. If you get angry and go away on your own, fine.")

Yes, the first time I ever saw a person of a different color, I stared a bit. I didn't feel threatened, and I wasn't judging them, it was just a "I didn't know someone could look like that!" moment. I was staring to set it into my mind that "this is a person, just like me." I was also 11, the lowest person on the social totem-pole in my school, tended to be overlooked, and probably the most unthreatening person anyone could ever meet. I don't think it was possible for someone to feel offended at me back then, because I wasn't anything. Care about my opinion? Who would? That's how I felt for the longest time, because that's how I was treated for the longest time. I don't know if that was a factor in why I could get away with staring at that girl and not be called out for it, assuming anyone noticed it in the first place. But well, when I saw someone different, I would stare, and try to figure out what made them different, without ever believing that different meant bad or lacking in some way.

It's hard to offend me, and I don't understand being offended by many things. I do understand being offended by having lies spread about you. YES! That is offensive. But a lot of insults and offenses confuse the hell out of me. Like "vertically-challenged". I'm short! There's nothing wrong with me being short, I'm just short. But I understand about getting offended by the"n-word", because of everything it was created to imply. (someone who is poor, useless, and ignorant.)
 
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:-D
 

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I've never really liked the phrase "politically correct." It's always struck me as a limiting term, like it's about "politics" or something rather than what the concept really addresses, which is:

Common sense, manners and etiquette. How not to be a complete asshole, how to respect our fellow homo saps, without being a shitheel about it.
 
Sep 28, 2012
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I hate political correctness because it is the antithesis of great intercourse. The world needs more great intercourse both verbal and sexual :D.
Politically correct speech obfuscates rather than clarifies. Clarity is more important to communication than agreement. For every injury that is caused by a disagreement there are many more caused by misunderstanding. I think political correctness causes more harm than it prevents.

Now some words are so offensive that they should be only used in very limited situations. For instance I hear the phrase "fuck you nigger" about once year. It generally shocks me a bit, but since it is invariable said by one black guy in the military to a fellow black serviceman, I have gotten used to it. Especially since it is generally proceeded by a great bluff at the poker table. :) I think it is good that blacks have taken such a loaded word with an ugly history and turned into a term of friendship. Still I can't imagine when it would ever appropriate for me or any white person using nigger. I think is an act of compassion, not correctness, to use a euphemism for retarded when talking about children with Downs Syndrome. Likewise I understand the laws in Germany which ban Nazi symbols and any praise of the Nazis.

But for the most part political correctness is silly and sometimes absurd. I am fat or obese, not horizontally gifted or a person of size. A couple of my friends describe people as big, but then they invariably have to use hand gestures and several sentence to clarify what they meant by "big". A guy who is 6' 6" and weighs 250 is big somebody who is 5" 6" and 250 is fat, but now the adjective big is meaningless. I am not offended by the term fat so their PC speech does nothing.

It is particularly crazy when compliments are considered offensive and the President of the United States is forced to apologize like what happened last week.

she is brilliant and she is dedicated and she is tough, and she is exactly what you'd want in anybody who is administering the law, and making sure that everybody is getting a fair shake.“She also happens to be by far the best-looking attorney general in the country -- Kamala Harris is here. [Applause.] It's true. Come on. [Laughter] And she is a great friend and has just been a great supporter for many, many years.”

Does anybody think Attorney General Harris was offended by the Presidents remarks? I suspect that more than a few of the people finding his remarks inappropriate, probably complimented the President on being tall good looking with a winning smile, and perhaps even said something about Paul Ryan being buff. But I guess 2013 it is not politically correct to compliment a woman on her appearance. :?

The thing is in almost cases the people expressing outrage aren't actually the person who is the target of "insult". Rather it is a bunch of White Knight who pretend to be offended, on their behalf. Sadly we see this behavior on both ACF and MFC. I have to admit there have been times when I thought a members chat comments would be offensive to the model, only to find out that I was wrong. I am glad I generally kept my mouth shut. For the most part I think we should let people stick up for themselves rather than acting on their behalf. It is patronizing otherwise.

But the real danger of political correctness is that it represses much needed speech. The antidote for offensive speech is more speech, not less. Several years ago I attended a debate between the woman president of the ACLU, and Ken Star, the special prosecutor during Clinton's impeachment. Despite being on opposite sides of the political spectrum there was a surprising amount of agreement between them. One of the areas where they were in violent agreement was on free speech. The ACLU head pointed out that there is no right in this country not to offended. Rather offensive speech receives constitutional protection even when it is offensive to virtually everybody (e.g. Westboro Baptist).

In my lifetime, I have seen some dramatic shifts in what is considered politically correct. For instance as a kid discussing interracial dating or marriage was politically incorrect, there were lots of code words and the subject was considered not something to discuss in polite company. But by the mid 60s the Free Speech movement had arisen, movie like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and the country resulted in a vigorous debate about allowing blacks and whites to marry. It is hard for me to imagine how that debate would take place in a PC world.
 
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Nordling

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I mostly agree with you HiGirls. I think that part of the problem, as I mentioned earlier, is the term itself. it's so ambiguous that it leads people to extreme speech behavior. I don't think anyone civilized objects to good manners during discourse, but that doesn't mean one has to use euphemisms for everything when discussing sensitive topics.

Example: My father did NOT "pass away." He fucking died after falling off a dam and drowning in the goddam mill race. However, when Aunt Bertha died quietly in her sleep, "passed away" is probably more appropriate.

Mostly it's just about common sense and have a decent amount of sensitivity. Also, before one speaks, maybe have a thought about our agenda, if we have one.
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

camstory said:
one of the guys yelled from the field, " Oh so you just came for the fried chicken" there was no tone of anything other than joking in his voice.

What I yelled back was, "not just the chicken, figured the watermelon would be good too." I heard a few muffled laughs, and I yelled, "It was all good, thank you" To this day I believe there was nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure there was not.

That's funny...lol. You should've asked if there was any red Kool-Aid. That would've been hilarious. :lol:
 

Jupiter551

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

I find it kind of funny, and ironic, that it's actually kind of politically-incorrect (or at least frowned upon) to be politically-correct lol.

So what is politically correct? Basically it's a term only ever used by those in opposition to a presented view - and imo it's generally used as a kind of last-ditch attack on someone whose argument can't be discounted on logical grounds, so the respondent resorts to ridiculing the perceived attitude of the person or community, rather than having any logical objection to the position itself.

In other words, politically-correct is what conservatives and right-wing nutbags call anyone who happens to not agree with them and/or present a liberal point of view.
 
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Jupiter551 said:
I find it kind of funny, and ironic, that it's actually kind of politically-incorrect (or at least frowned upon) to be politically-correct lol.

So what is politically correct? Basically it's a term only ever used by those in opposition to a presented view - and imo it's generally used as a kind of last-ditch attack on someone whose argument can't be discounted on logical grounds, so the respondent resorts to ridiculing the perceived attitude of the person or community, rather than having any logical objection to the position itself.

In other words, politically-correct is what conservatives and right-wing nutbags call anyone who happens to not agree with them and/or present a liberal point of view.

Really I don't see much of evidence of PC being frowned on. For instance in the latest incident with President Obama, The only criticism the President received was from folks on the "lunatic" left like Mika Brzezinski. or Jonathan Chait. Us right-wing nutjobs supported the President, cause objectively the President was right..
It is either Kamila Harris or Kathleen Kane PA's Attorney General are the best looking AG, . More importantly praising someones looks should be something you need to apologize for unless it is hell of a lot more creepy than what the President said..


If your hypothesis that being PC is being now the new politically incorrect than I'd expect to see criticism of Mika or Jonathan for their criticism of the President but that isn't happening.
There is no downside for being easily offended.
 

Nordling

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Well. Calling the AG the best looking AG could have been a huge gaffe but it wasn't, although the President did get a shit load of emails from people calling him sexist. Most of the folks who complained probably don't listen to the President a lot; fact is, he calls darn near everyone "good looking." It's part of his shtick...a bit of his humor. He calls both men and women, Republican, Democratic and independent "good looking."
 
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Aug 14, 2011
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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

yummybrownfox said:
camstory said:
one of the guys yelled from the field, " Oh so you just came for the fried chicken" there was no tone of anything other than joking in his voice.

What I yelled back was, "not just the chicken, figured the watermelon would be good too." I heard a few muffled laughs, and I yelled, "It was all good, thank you" To this day I believe there was nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure there was not.

That's funny...lol. You should've asked if there was any red Kool-Aid. That would've been hilarious. :lol:
Fox, I am going to PM you what I thought to post, cuz I am a little gun shy of posting anything right now.

I am not sure what the red Kool-Aid reference is to. I hope it is not to the jones town massacre?

My reason for relating the account of that day was to say, that when faced with, what I found to be a racist remark in front of a bunch of black ppl, I had a couple choices. The one I chose was not the best, but I will tell you why I think it was better than pretending it was not racist, but first let me tell you what I would have said if I had it to do all over. that would have been to say, "Hey there is no reason to throw racial stuff out there, we're all just ppl." That's what I wish I had said, but I didn't.

Why I thought it was better than to try to pretend it did not happen, was b/c pretending it did not happen, would have been obvious, and I felt that would have been dishonest. So what I did was to say, yea I know that was a racist remark, so here have another, and isn't this stupid! If the comment from the guy in the field been, "so what you just came to eat our food and leave" I obviously would not have replied as I did, but once race was thrown in there I felt the tit for tat was more honest than pretending it did not happen.

And really this is my point of this thread, that sometime being PC is not the most honest thing we can do. If the same thing happened today or even 5 years ago, my reply would have been much like what I said I now feel would have been the best way to handle it, but I was not so confident then. I wish I had called the raciest comment out, in a polite honest way, but short of that, what I did, I think was more honest than to pretend it did not happen.

I think I will also post this b/c I am curious what others think about it.
 
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Red7227

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Re: ~Politically Correct~ (what's it mean & what do you thin

Nordling said:
I've never really liked the phrase "politically correct." It's always struck me as a limiting term, like it's about "politics" or something rather than what the concept really addresses, which is:

Common sense, manners and etiquette. How not to be a complete asshole, how to respect our fellow homo saps, without being a shitheel about it.

I've always liked "courteous" rather than "politically correct" As i said above, I reserve "politically correct" for decisions more based on mitigating litigation and pandering to the lunatic fringe that thinks "Merry Christmas" is going to offend anyone.
 
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