a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and dominance

[southsamurai]

ok, disclaimer time. first off i am not referring to any real individuals or groups in this post at all. (other than myself and my personal experiences) i'm not even speaking in generalities since that would assume that i am applying my thoughts to people in reality. all im doing is mulling over a few things in the realm of thought.

ok, i've been reading some of my stack of BDSM erotica the last few days and it has had me thinking about the subject. one of the things that i noticed is the tendency of alpha types to be submissives when they play. since some of the tops ive met over the years tend to be very calm, relaxed people outside of play and the subs seem to have strong personalities outside of it as well i thought more about how i am a dominant when i play, without exception, since the last time i tried it just to be thorough. Thing is, while i am sort of relaxed and laid back, i am by no means like other doms i have known. i'm too... i dunno... forceful? outside of play. even if i am quiet and passive in conversation and interactions with my loved ones it is a dominant quiet. i am quiet because doing so actually controls the conversation and makes the other person think about what they are saying. if they dont then i can just ignore them and walk away. (hey, i've said plenty of times i am hard to live with and can be a real prick)

thing is my career which took up a full half of my waking hours most of the time, was one of submission. i was handservant and bodyservant to others for a living. i catered to their needs to the exclusion of my own, even to the point of costing myself sleep, pay and/or time to earn other money. certainly when working i had my limits and lines, mostly based on professional ethics, but a few personal ones as well. i never stayed long with racist or bigoted clients, and i never agreed with them when they spouted off. i would stay silent on the topic unless pressed, and as soon as they pressed make a call to the office and tell them i was done, but still i stayed polite and within the bounds of professional behavior. when a person is in need of nursing care they tend to have all dignity and control stripped from them, so in my mind it was only the right thing to do to make sure they had as much as possible when i was working.

so i started to wondering if that isnt part of why im a dom when i play, and in most other things in life. did i so fully satisfy my need to submit in my job that my dominant urges were all that was left when it came to personal time? or is it that i was having to work so hard at being submissive and quiet while working that it drove my basic dominance to a greater height? If i had been, oh i dont know a drill sergeant or an executive of some kind, forced to be the alpha all the time would i have found a need and desire to be submissive in play? i know for sure that being the alpha is a pain in the ass. way more stress than reward for sure. i much prefer being in a group of betas and swapping out lead dog role as needed.

maybe if that had been my life's work i would be the stereotype of the hard working CEO that hires a dominatrix on the weekends to escape from the constant need to make decisions. Lords know that the bliss and calm that i see in submissives i've played with seems transcendent. much more so that the calm and comfort i got as the top. That isnt to say that i was not fulfilled by the experience. i was or i wouldnt have done it more than 3 or 4 times (just to be sure ya know).
I also know that the submissive role just irritates the daylights out of me. the same phrases and rituals that my subs loved when i did them just pissed me off when i tried to sub. heck i never could call someone master or mistress without laughing so hard that play time was over, but i don't mind it being used by my pets. whatever makes them happy i guess lol.

and when i thought that last phrase in the shower a little bit ago it sent a wave of "AH-HA" through me. here i am, making someone (and there should be quotes around making there) crawl and whipping them and such and i'm really doin it to make them happy and make them feel good. the part of it that satisfies me, that makes me feel whole and safe isnt the acts themselves. it isnt the rituals and the toys and the outfits. it is pure and simple the surrender and trust.

this person at my feet gave me that control, that power. they could take it all back with one word or phrase. they could walk away at any time. but because i am giving them relief and peace and joy they dont. now i wonder if i am really a dominant at all, at least in terms of fetish. if the thing about it that excites me, fulfills me is the surrender itself could i enjoy it through other means? or does it really take the symbolism and ritual for me to feel that surrender so truly?

anyway, i post this not because i need answers, or think that my thoughts will provide anything to anyone else. i post it just because sometimes when you find a truth about yourself it has to be shared to be real and stick with you, so if you read any of it, thank you. if you didn't, cant blame you lol.

 

[camstory]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

This post ^^^^ has made me curious about my own very limited experiences with play that was built of a very strict dom/sub structure. I say very limited, but as far as a Master/mistress, walk me around with a leash, command my submission sort of thing, I guess to be honest I should say nonexistent. I am very in touch with what brings me pleasure, and where bondage fits in this I do have some experience. I always assumed I would be more comfortable as a sub, but now thinking a little deeper, I am not sure that is right. And unlike the Sam's post I am writing/posting this because I am maybe looking for some answers.

Let me tell you what I do know about myself. I know that where my Everest of desire stands is as a giver. What gets me off, is being a servant to my partners pleasures. (I think that says sub.) On the other hand, my ultimate goal is to so complete connect to that pleasure, that I control the pace, tempo, breaks, volume, and tone of this thing we are mixed up in. The summit for me is to have so much control, that I can put my partner through changes. (I think that says Dom.)

I know for sure when it comes to bondage, I find it uncomfortable to be restrain and being the recipient of attention aimed strictly at my physical pleasure. On the other hand being restrained and being ridden to a hard grind, or straddle my face and see if you can smother me to your pleasure, works for me. But really bondage works best for me when I am in control and not the one bound. But when in that situation, my actions, my desires, what gets me off, is still the role of giver, or as the player of an instrument, not the user of a toy in my possession, except where the toy derives pleasure from its use.

I guess when I have thought about a Dom/sub dynamic, I have always thought of myself as a sub, because the idea of ordering someone around in an alpha sorta, "do this just because I said so" way does not appeal to me. But on the other hand, I don't think I would be all that fond of being the one being ordered around ether, because that would take me out of control. So I am guessing sub, but not because that would really be my desire, but only because it would be more desirable than the alternative. :dontknow:

 

[lordmagellan]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

The real beauty I've found in all of this, Cam, is that you don't have to be anything other than yourself. The wife and I joke that I am her dominATE, mostly because we find that a lot of people on Fetlife can't spell, but also because we've never formally established that I am in charge of the house. Because really, I'm not; I do my part, she does hers. But I do exert some control, mostly with what she eats (I'm not an asshole, she had weight issues and wanted me to do this). This works for both of us- she gets healthier (doctor approved!), and I take care of my woman. Our friends have told us that this was a Dom/sub relationship, even though we never thought of it as such.

As far as play time, I've always had curiosity about BDSM, but never had any real desire to explore it. She led the way in finding groups to learn with (because I wasn't doing this without learning some safety) and we both went into it with eyes open, wondering where we stood. She is pretty submissive, but bratty. She wants to be forced to do things. I find myself in a situation that's similar to yours, in that I'm usually doing things because I know she's getting something out of it. However, the more we play and the more we explore, the more I find myself taking the lead and doing my thing because I want to.

But I started this saying you didn't have to be anything but yourself. Here's what I meant by that: If you've perused the links in my siggy (and I know you have), you've seen where I've submitted myself to a number of "tortures." What kind of dominant would allow some crazy bitch to try and drown him? Probably no kind. But I'm not really a dominant, at least in my eyes. Nor am I a submissive. I'm just a weird son of a bitch that straddles the worlds of fantasy and reality, enjoys choking his wife while he fucks the ever loving shit out of her, and, occasionally, likes having the odd needle or twelve jabbed through his face.

I consider myself incredibly lucky in that I found a group of people that accept that about me.

But yea, you don't have to answer the question of "am I this or am I that." Just seek to explore and find what you enjoy for yourself. But then, I've always had a bit of a dislike of titles.

 

[Aella]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

Samurai, I'm not sure about the relation between dominance in life and submissiveness in the bedroom, and vice versa. I'd like to see stats on that, but I've personally experienced no relation in my own life. I've had men submissive in both life and the bedroom, dominant in both, dominant in one but not the other, submissive in one but not the other. There doesn't seem to be a pattern, at least not from what I can see. I'd love to see a study on this, though, to see if my experiences have been with outliers.

I personally have gone through an extremely submissive life, and prefer being submissive in the bedroom.

This whole concept is incredibly interesting to me as well. I've found that in submissiveness, I can only be physically submissive. I love extreme pain, bondage, and being pushed to my limits, but the moment I have to speak, I have problems. I can't say "thank you," or "please hit me," or "I'm a slut." Mental submission is absolutely abhorrent and contradictory to every fiber of my being - it makes me feel physically ill.

So I think there are different types of submission and dominance, and people don't enjoy them all for the same reason. I like submission because the fury I feel inside makes me feel powerful. Other people like submission because of guilt relief or vulnerability.

I'm less familiar with dominance, and would love to hear opinions from people who have dominant desires - but it seems to me some people like dominance because they need to be in control, others like it because they like feeling powerful, some are sadistic. Or is it a combination?

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling by this point. The motivations behind submission and dominance is absolutely intruiging - but I think there are multiple reasons, multiple types, and multiple degrees. That alone makes the relation between submission/dominance in public life and submission/dominance in private life inconsistent and harder to distinguish.

 

[LadyLuna]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

I identify as submissive for a number of reasons.

When I have a private with a really good dom, I actually end up in "subspace", and it feels incredible. I feel like the fact that I can even get in subspace puts me closer to the submissive side of things.

I hate being the one in control, because I'm not so good at reading people. To be a dom, you have to know that your sub is or isn't enjoying themselves. But I'm learning that it's okay to do short sessions, so I would probably do a few minutes of a session and then stop it to talk about what just happened, so that the sub's actions and reactions would be fresh in my mind. So that one, is not so much either.

I also hate making decisions, because of the same reason. I have a very hard time saying no to people. I'm getting better at it, but only with people I haven't really gotten to know. What kind of dom can't say no to their sub?

And lastly, I can't stand the idea of me making someone else upset, angry, sad, hurt, or making their life worse in any way. Even if it's by accident.

However, there is this part of me that wants to be in control sometimes. I generally let that part of myself out in writing, because when I try to let it out in real life, I balk and stall, and it just doesn't work.

While I firmly identify as being submissive, I agree with LordMagellan in that you don't have to be one or the other. It's not a single sliding scale with dom on one side and sub on the other. Preferences don't work like that. That would be like saying if you enjoy purple you can't like yellow. Or that if you like red you don't like green. No, each thing has it's own scale from like to dislike.

So, on a scale from hate to love, I really like being submissive in the sense of doing what I'm told and making sure the other person is happy with it. (like, a 9, maybe even 9.5)

On a scale from hate to love, I kinda like being dominant in the sense of having control, and doing things to someone who wants me to do them. (about a 6, cause 5 would be completely neutral... possibly only 5.5 though)

 

[MrTrenchcoat]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

Domination is the ultimate form of submission, and submission is the ultimate form of control. My last partner instilled that idea in me, along with the fact there are three kinds of people; those who give, those who take and those who share. With those two ideas together, you can get a feel for a part of the spectrum. There are also those who prefer physical, and those who prefer the psychological. Personally, I'm a dominant sharer who prefers the psychological. That means I deal in pleasure and denial, rather than pain and torment, as well as thinking solely of our combined enjoyment. There have been times I had prepared a treat, then my partner felt the need to dominate because her day went badly. At those times, I shelved the idea for later, then submitted to her. We mirror each other, perhaps entirely because of that depth of that trust any good dom/sub relationship has.

I suppose I just wanted to point out that it takes time to figure out where you fit in any spectrum. As a general rule, humans form a brilliant spectrum, the same applies to every sub-culture I am aware of. As with all sub-cultures, it doesn't matter where in the spectrum or spectra you fall, even if you line up with half a dozen spots across the whole thing. The important things are honesty and trust. Knowing yourself is also damned important, but that comes with honesty.

That was a bit of a ramble, I tried to avoid philosophising too much, I think I succeeded. :dontknow:

One last thought, people are complicated.

 

[camstory]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

Domination is the ultimate form of submission, and submission is the ultimate form of control. My last partner instilled that idea in me, along with the fact there are three kinds of people; those who give, those who take and those who share. With those two ideas together, you can get a feel for a part of the spectrum. There are also those who prefer physical, and those who prefer the psychological. Personally, I'm a dominant sharer who prefers the psychological. That means I deal in pleasure and denial, rather than pain and torment, as well as thinking solely of our combined enjoyment. There have been times I had prepared a treat, then my partner felt the need to dominate because her day went badly. At those times, I shelved the idea for later, then submitted to her. We mirror each other, perhaps entirely because of that depth of that trust any good dom/sub relationship has.

I suppose I just wanted to point out that it takes time to figure out where you fit in any spectrum. As a general rule, humans form a brilliant spectrum, the same applies to every sub-culture I am aware of. As with all sub-cultures, it doesn't matter where in the spectrum or spectra you fall, even if you line up with half a dozen spots across the whole thing. The important things are honesty and trust. Knowing yourself is also damned important, but that comes with honesty.

That was a bit of a ramble, I tried to avoid philosophising too much, I think I succeeded. :dontknow:

One last thought, people are complicated.

Took in all of it, and found these two absolute truths, which gives me reason to ponder the rest in search of more truths.

 

[Evvie]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

Domination is the ultimate form of submission, and submission is the ultimate form of control.

I have to admit that I disagree completely. That just really seems counter-intuitive.

"So you're a Master in the BDSM lifestyle? You tie people up and do cruel and degrading things to them?"
"I sure do!"
"Why?"
"I just have an intense need to submit. Being a Master is the only way I can truly serve and obey; my slaves control me 100% and I would be lost if I couldn't submit to them every day. Being completely out of control and unable to make choices during scenes is so cathartic, I love it."

I'm not denying the fact that there are "service doms" and submissives who specifically get off on the inherent power servitude can bring, but it seems silly to make a blanket statement that all dominants are secretly submissive and all submissives want to be the ones holding the whip. Perhaps a better blanket statement might be, "It is difficult to be in a completely polarized relationship, and the complexities of domination and submission often mean neither party is in complete control."

 

[Alexandra Cole]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

I'm less familiar with dominance, and would love to hear opinions from people who have dominant desires - but it seems to me some people like dominance because they need to be in control, others like it because they like feeling powerful, some are sadistic. Or is it a combination?

In an ideal situation, I feel some dominant equivalent to "subspace." It happens when I feel in tune with the submissive, or when they do something or say something that triggers it. And it isn't a feeling of power or control. It feels like hunger. Power is just something I use to get at what excites me.

This whole concept is incredibly interesting to me as well. I've found that in submissiveness, I can only be physically submissive. I love extreme pain, bondage, and being pushed to my limits, but the moment I have to speak, I have problems. I can't say "thank you," or "please hit me," or "I'm a slut." Mental submission is absolutely abhorrent and contradictory to every fiber of my being - it makes me feel physically ill.

I can understand that. My general thinking is that anything that takes place in a sexual context is beyond judgment, and sometimes those contradictions - those things that feel the most abhorrent - are what generate the most pleasurable friction.

(Internal conflict is massive turn-on to me. It's like watching someone struggle in bondage, or seeing someone shake with the need to come.)

But it sounds like you might not be submissive at all. Some people just enjoy the physical intensity and the endorphin rush. They might need a top/bottom dynamic to experience it, but they get absolutely nothing from the act of submission.

Domination is the ultimate form of submission, and submission is the ultimate form of control.

I agree with Evvie on this. I've heard it before, but it feels apologetic, as if there's something wrong with submission. To my mind, if submission becomes a form of control, it's not submission. It's just topping from bottom. And, like Evvie mentioned, some people are into that, but I wouldn't say it characterizes the dynamic overall.

I would say that there's a balance, though. I can't take control unless that control is given, whether that's incremental over time or absolute at the outset. And when I top someone who's also dominant (because sometimes I can't help myself), there might be a struggle while we wrestle for control, but until one of us surrenders, there's no submission.

So maybe MrTrenchcoat's statement was meant to express that balance.

 

[MrTrenchcoat]

Re: a verbose(i mean really) ramble on submission and domina

In an ideal situation, I feel some dominant equivalent to "subspace." It happens when I feel in tune with the submissive, or when they do something or say something that triggers it. And it isn't a feeling of power or control. It feels like hunger. Power is just something I use to get at what excites me.

I agree. Power is the means, the end is something entirely different. I find it's like hunger, but with different flavours...That's not a good way to put it. I mean it feels different depending on how I get to it, but there is always the same underlying urge. I think it's the exact equivalent to "subspace", there are times when my partner and I are in sync, and suddenly it's almost like we're not...Us. I'm trying to be clearer, but I don't think I can be. I know when we get in sync that I feel completely different. I feel ravenous, electrified, bestial and just...Different. Perhaps it's one of those things that I can't put into words.

I agree with Evvie on this. I've heard it before, but it feels apologetic, as if there's something wrong with submission. To my mind, if submission becomes a form of control, it's not submission. It's just topping from bottom. And, like Evvie mentioned, some people are into that, but I wouldn't say it characterizes the dynamic overall.

I would say that there's a balance, though. I can't take control unless that control is given, whether that's incremental over time or absolute at the outset. And when I top someone who's also dominant (because sometimes I can't help myself), there might be a struggle while we wrestle for control, but until one of us surrenders, there's no submission.

So maybe MrTrenchcoat's statement was meant to express that balance.

I never meant that there was anything wrong with submission. That came direct from my partner, I understood it to mean you cannot be entirely in control, nor can you completely relinquish control. There must be a balance, as you said. My apologies for the misunderstanding. While there are many better ways it could have been put, I felt passing it on the way she told me was best. Perhaps it is best put the way you did; there must be a balance and you can't take what is not being given.