Colin Kaepernick: I'm not anti-American

[LuckySmiles]

That's pretty funny. but also...

I'm a Cub fan

I am so sorry.
but hey maybe they'll win this year, they're doin ok huh?? And It's once every 100-ish years yes?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

This is what's revolting to me. The man is protesting. Never mind whether he is right or wrong. But the idea that service to our country is a trump card to be played against protest or disagreement makes me want to puke.

What about a vet who went to war for his country, came home and supported it for a good while after that, then in 2004 said he never would have served if he had seen what his country was? That's a little stronger than not standing for a song.

What about a vet who serves his country, then comes home and blows up Oklahoma City? Did we remember to thank him for his service before we executed him? (for the record, I hope not lol).

But I do think Mr. Kaepernick is taking the easy way out sittin'. Time to get that fist in the air.

 

[n_i_c_u]

Happy to FINALLY admit I'm a Cub fan... some 7th inning stretch songs are historical, lol.

One other instance at the ballpark. There were these drunk guys yelling profanities at the cubs during a game I went to (I, again was in the bleachers). Apparently there were a group of Nuns that were fans of of the cubs that were sitting with us. You wouldn't believe the apologizing that these drunk dudes did for these Nuns once they realized they were being profane in front of people of GOD. "Sorry, Sister...blah blah blah blah." It really didn't stop the Nuns from exercising their God given spiritual rights on these dudes. It didn't even matter that the Nuns were rooting for the cubs, these three dudes couldn't apologize enough (and the Nuns really just made them feel horrible with the looks, not scolding).

I saw it and I thought: WoW. Life makes no sense (you can say all that stuff when there aren't Nuns, but, if there are and you get caught it means something! LOL).

 

[Bocefish]

I am so sorry.
but hey maybe they'll win this year, they're doin ok huh?? And It's once every 100-ish years yes?

Ya, well...cautiously optimistic... back when I was playing hooky from sf training at Ft. Lewis, thought the Seattle Mariners had it wrapped up with Ichiru, Arod and Randy Johnson.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

This isn't really in regards to his protest but just everyone getting way too offended by this. Ever since I was in elementary school I never said the pledge of allegiance because I'm an Atheist and for some reason, as a young child that was an important part of my identity. It wasn't some protest, I just didn't believe in God so I didn't say it because I didn't think it made sense for me to. I would stand up usually and just be quiet and I don't find that disrespectful in the least. Because that was my first experience for years with the pledge of allegiance it still doesn't mean anything to me. That doesn't mean that America or the people who serve this country don't mean anything to me. We just can't say there's this one magical thing you have to participate in or you're Anti-American. I don't think patriotism or respect is something that any of us need to prove to anyone else.

I also just agree with @SexySteph so hard. Men and women are fighting for our rights and if you love America so much, then be aware of what rights we as citizens have and respect the fact that people fought for all of them not just the ones that are especially important to you.

 

[Bocefish]

I also just agree with @SexySteph so hard. Men and women are fighting for our rights and if you love America so much, then be aware of what rights we as citizens have and respect the fact that people fought for all of them not just the ones that are especially important to you.

OK, I also just agree so hard you are being defensive for no reason.

What rights am I disrespecting?

There's way too much assuming and very little open-minded listening going on.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

OK, I also just agree so hard you are being defensive for no reason.

What rights am I disrespecting?

There's way too much assuming and very little open-minded listening going on.

I'm being defensive? I was just explaining my own thoughts and experience, not defending my feelings. I didn't quote you in my post, which means I wasn't talking to you. I didn't say you were disrespecting anything. Relax buddy.

 

[EmiliaSong]

You need to make a scene in order to draw attention to an issue. Whether you agree with him or not - and he has empirical data to back up his claim that there is a nationwide trend of police officers treating African-American citizens more harshly than citizens of other racial groups* - using a widely viewed platform to make your point is perfectly sensible and has plenty of precident (see: 1968 Olympics Black Power salute). Peacefully protesting is one of the most American things that a citizen can do. It's in the First Amendment. Members of the armed services fight for our right to speak freely and protest peacefully, and that's exactly what Kaepernick did and will continue to do. Many veterans have come out and said as much. It's our responsibility as citizens of a nation with a (theoretically) representative government to call out our government when we feel that our government isn't representing our best interests. Those with privilege need to speak up for those who lack the power to speak for themselves. Slaves wouldn't be freed without abolitionists, women wouldn't be able to vote without male feminists, and LGBTQ people wouldn't have agency without allies.

The NFL has zero right to fire him because the managers disagree with his political opinions. It would be the most blatant case of wrongful termination, and thank goodness it's playing out in the media. Players aren't required to stand during the National Anthem.

One of the players from the Seahawks joined him yesterday. I suspect he won't be the last to sit down this season. I guarantee you that every single black NFL player has had negative experiences with the police precisely because of a bias - subconscious or conscious - against their combination of race, gender, and body type. There have already been numerous pro-BLM protests at major league sporting events over the past few years.

*Except for Native people. No one talks about Native people!!

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

If you say so. It is a nice "show" to have to take a hat off or not sit. I guess it is the LEAST a person can do...which seems really really dumb if one thinks about it. It is nice to give respect symbolically, but, America is a country that changes; because I don't change with you in social norms is not my problem if you don't like it and I shouldn't expect you to like my nuances to the social norm and how I pay respect.

Tradition isn't everything.

You are right taking your hat is about the LEAST somebody can do to show respect for this country. You certainly have the right not to follow norms and tradition. But shouldn't be surprised when others exercise their freedom of speech, to denounce you for failing to respect these traditions.

I get peeved when I see people not taking off their hat. Now, unless I had a bunch of beers I probably wouldn't have said anything, but I would have applauded the drunk guy. I do give people a nasty stare and the silence sign when they talk during the pledge of allegiance or during the national anthem or at memorials.

Now here is something for you to consider in the same way that the drunk guy ruined your day at the ballpark, I've been around plenty of veterans who have their day ruined at a sporting event, if the crowd didn't show their respect during the national anthem. Respect and tradition are a big part of military culture. Figure 7% of the population has served in the military and so at sporting a few hundred people saw you keep your hat and I say at least 1/2 dozen would be annoyed and at least one mad enough to say something.

The tradition of playing the national anthem during baseball games starting during WWI, and became established in WWII as a way to honor the millions serving abroad and soon extended to all other professional sporting events.

As for Kaepernick, if his objective was to get people talking about the oppressive culture of the US. I'd say he failed spectacularly at his goal. In every news account, this thread, and other threads I've seen on social media the entire discussion is about him and not his cause.

 

[Gen]

You are right taking your hat is about the LEAST somebody can do to show respect for this country. You certainly have the right not to follow norms and tradition. But shouldn't be surprised when others exercise their freedom of speech, to denounce you for failing to respect these traditions.

I get peeved when I see people not taking off their hat. Now, unless I had a bunch of beers I probably wouldn't have said anything, but I would have applauded the drunk guy. I do give people a nasty stare and the silence sign when they talk during the pledge of allegiance or during the national anthem or at memorials.

Now here is something for you to consider in the same way that the drunk guy ruined your day at the ballpark, I've been around plenty of veterans who have their day ruined at a sporting event, if the crowd didn't show their respect during the national anthem. Respect and tradition are a big part of military culture. Figure 7% of the population has served in the military and so at sporting a few hundred people saw you keep your hat and I say at least 1/2 dozen would be annoyed and at least one mad enough to say something.

The tradition of playing the national anthem during baseball games starting during WWI, and became established in WWII as a way to honor the millions serving abroad and soon extended to all other professional sporting events.

As for Kaepernick, if his objective was to get people talking about the oppressive culture of the US. I'd say he failed spectacularly at his goal. In every news account, this thread, and other threads I've seen on social media the entire discussion is about him and not his cause.

Disagree with the last paragraph, at least in this thread. Barely any discussion of him as a player or person, lots about the anthem, what it means to Americans, the hat stuff, etc. Maybe not about his cause specifically (as we have other threads that have gone into that extensively too) but I don't think it's overly focused on him.

Honest question: is the anthem just a veteran thing? Up here we love our anthem but it's not nearly as linked to the military so I don't think a veteran would be drastically more upset by an abstainer or hat-wearer than a civilian would; it's more of a Canadian pride thing than a "thanks to our vets" thing I think. I can't imagine any of the Canadian vets I know taking it super personally if people were chatting or sitting during the anthem. But your relationship to the military (as Americans, not you personally lol) is very different than ours. So genuine question.

 

[Bocefish]

Honest question: is the anthem just a veteran thing? Up here we love our anthem but it's not nearly as linked to the military so I don't think a veteran would be drastically more upset by an abstainer or hat-wearer than a civilian would; it's more of a Canadian pride thing than a "thanks to our vets" thing I think. I can't imagine any of the Canadian vets I know taking it super personally if people were chatting or sitting during the anthem. But your relationship to the military (as Americans, not you personally lol) is very different than ours. So genuine question.

The media has blown everything out of proportion, as usual.

If there's not enough drama behind a story, they will do their best to create some.

 

[JickyJuly]

I don't know if his protesting is genuine. That's not really for us to question. But, the outrage is certainly feigned. If the morality police is attending American football games, where are their voices every time a player is being taken advantage of by a crooked businessman who knows this is the first time they've had real money? Or when a player beats his wife? Did they speak out against Michael Vick or were they chiming in about 2nd chances as he slimeballed his way back onto the field?

If his quiet protest is being done incorrectly, in the wrong place or at the wrong time, what is the correct way, time and place? Whenever BLM (or people claiming to be part of BLM) gets wild, there's a meme that goes around saying "The difference is that Rosa Parks didn't trash the bus". She just refused to stand. So, if black folks are called hooligans when they trash the bus and disrespectful when they sit, is the game not a bit rigged against them? What's really being said is don't protest at all. Take your big paycheck. Throw your ball like a good boy and be glad you're here.

 

[SexySteph]

Honest question: is the anthem just a veteran thing? Up here we love our anthem but it's not nearly as linked to the military so I don't think a veteran would be drastically more upset by an abstainer or hat-wearer than a civilian would; it's more of a Canadian pride thing than a "thanks to our vets" thing I think. I can't imagine any of the Canadian vets I know taking it super personally if people were chatting or sitting during the anthem. But your relationship to the military (as Americans, not you personally lol) is very different than ours. So genuine question.

It depends on who you are.

My dad is a veteran, went to Vietnam and cam back a democrat and hated what our country did to its young men. And he definitely doesn't seem to have strong opinions on the anthem and what you do during it. He takes his hat off and puts his hand over his heart because for him he feels a connection to the men he watched die when he hears the anthem, not because he loves our country, because for awhile he hated it and felt that it needed to change. But he also feels that it's your right to choose how you react to the pledge or anthem.

A lot of veterans have actually spoken out against people's response to Kaepernik. In my experience at least, the loudest and angriest have never seen a day of war first hand in their life and just like to say "but mah veterans!!!" whenever someone makes a political statement like this.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Honest question: is the anthem just a veteran thing? Up here we love our anthem but it's not nearly as linked to the military so I don't think a veteran would be drastically more upset by an abstainer or hat-wearer than a civilian would; it's more of a Canadian pride thing than a "thanks to our vets" thing I think. I can't imagine any of the Canadian vets I know taking it super personally if people were chatting or sitting during the anthem. But your relationship to the military (as Americans, not you personally lol) is very different than ours. So genuine question.

It's just tradition, and the Star Spangled Banner song itself is about the flag and battle, and the land of the free. And it's always been big at sporting events.

but all americans saw a day of war in their life 15 years ago, many experienced it firsthand.

Some saw the smoke and fire from their own house.There were volunteer groups mostly made of civil servants, or previous civil servants looking for bodies over a fire that burned for several months that followed. The smoke they breathed was extremely toxic.
Many also had friends and family volunteer to go off to fight over it. Some people hate things like war and what it does, and still feel attachment to traditions that represent the unifying spirit of American people in times of crisis. So different people feel attachment to American traditions for different reasons. Personally I cannot watch that documentary about baseball and 9/11 without sobbing like an idiot, so have to save it for a day I want to, but not everyone is the same.

I know I sound like a lois griffin meme... but whatever.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/thousands-suffer-9-11-illnesses-14-years-article-1.2356281

 

[mynameisbob84]

I'm not American and gung-ho patriotism just confuses me on every level, but I didn't see a problem with it. I don't think it's disrespectful to veterans (who literally died for their countrymen's freedom to not stand for an anthem if that's what they choose) and the outrage over it is just baffling to me. National anthems are essentially songs of praise and devotion to the country the people singing them happen to live in. If you disagree with the way your country is being ran, or despair with the state of certain aspects of your country, why should you be be forced by a court of public opinion to reverently stand for such a song?

 

[Protocosmo]

When I started school in the USA around the first grade, I barely spoke any English. Anyway, the school I went to, you were required to sing the national anthem and say the pledge of allegiance every damn morning. I had no idea what the hell it was all about, it was just something you had to do. Didn't mean anything to me or make any sense.

Decades later, all it does is creep me out.

 

[Phoenix4987]

From a USMC OEF combat veteran:

Today marks the day I lost good friend in the war and 2 others sustained injuries that will impact the rest of their lives. An IED struck their vehicle with a yield of roughly 200 pounds of explosives. The turret and the gunner were ejected from the vehicle and the gunner died on impact. The other 2 were still unconscious in the wreckage when we were finally able to get to the vehicle and weren't much better when the helo came in under fire to get everybody out. At the end of the day, we moved out of the valley and on top of the hill where we started. Some of the boys had flags with them and hung them up on a few of the trucks. The following morning, an rpg struck close and we started taking machine gun fire. Needless to say, everybody was riled up and there wasn't a single person who wasn't shooting a weapon. Literally, everyone in the convoy was either in a turret or in the prone behind cover trying to get their revenge.

In times like that, you're not thinking about how you're "defending freedom." You're thinking about surviving and trying to protect those to your left and your right. You're looking around and yelling "WHAT DIRECTION IS IT COMING FROM!?" and "I NEED ANOTHER AMMO CAN." You're on the radio with the closest base sounding like: "Ronin 1, Ronin 1, This is Blackjack. Currently engaging unknown number of hostiles."

So, when I see a flag and hear the national anthem etc, it's these images that come to my mind. And I think about those who have gone before me. So to me, it's a very emotional and sentimental tie I have to these traditions.

However, this is the US, and people can do what they want. I may not agree with it and I certainly think there's a better time and place to make a statement, but that's my opinion. And I'm mature enough to accept it's my opinion and not go on social media and try to shove my opinion down people's throats as the only social acceptable norm.

But from the looks of things, he got more negative attention about himself, than positive attention towards the cause he was trying to promote. That's why I think he could have gone about it a little smarter.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I'm more curious about the Castro shirt. What was he saying?

Was it "Hey, you dumb f*cks, do you realize where Castro came from?" Or was it "Hey we need a Castro!"

 

[Madmouser]

I grew up a military brat, spent 9 years in, and lost friends over the years who served... I'll start by saying, it is the reason my dad served, why I served, and why most serve,
"To give the last full measure of devotion"
freely given so folks can do what Colin did, or burn a flag. Etc
That being said, if you ever go to a military funeral with honors, and see when they fold up the flag to give to the wife/husband/parent/child, whomever... and watch that person hug that flag for dear life. Then you understand what the flag means to me...
I'll keep what I think of him sitting to myself, but will defend his ability to do so

 

[Mila_]

When people say that the US military fights for their right to say whatever they want, what exactly are they referring to? To my knowledge the US military has never fought a war against their own government for oppressing them. Even the American Revolution was fought for reasons other than freedom of speech which was alive and well in the British Empire. Maybe I am mistaken but I think the US military primarily fights to defend Americans from foreign threats and keep them safe. And then to defend US allies or further US interests abroad. Not for freedom of speech in the US

 

[justjoinedtopost]

When people say that the US military fights for their right to say whatever they want, what exactly are they referring to? To my knowledge the US military has never fought a war against their own government for oppressing them. Even the American Revolution was fought for reasons other than freedom of speech which was alive and well in the British Empire. Maybe I am mistaken but I think the US military primarily fights to defend Americans from foreign threats and keep them safe. And then to defend US allies or further US interests abroad. Not for freedom of speech in the US

US Constitution guarantees free speech, defended by the military.

 

[LuckySmiles]

The military takes an oath to defend the constitution, the same as police officers take an oath to defend the constitution. But state and local constitutions also apply to police since interpretation can often vary, without violating it, state to state. Think Gun laws, etc. And a local police officer sworn in, in Texas has no jurisdiction in Georgia, etc. That is also why we have separate military, state and federal courts.

 

[EmiliaSong]

Maybe I am mistaken but I think the US military primarily fights to defend Americans from foreign threats and keep them safe. And then to defend US allies or further US interests abroad.

Theoretically, yes, and thats what our volunteer army signs up for. They also fight to spread America's democratic ideology which includes freedom of speech - one of the current war's major selling point. In practice these days, it's exclusively for economic interests.

Our country is in the Middle East because of oil, other resources, and the region's proximity to the world's other economic powerhouses: Russia, China, and India. It's not just a Republican cause. The Democratic party is also complicit. It's why Obama hasn't left the region and why Hillary wants to ramp up the military's presence.

Try not to punch things after watching this (it's long but worth it). The urge will be strong:

 

[mutantdonut]

National anthems are essentially songs of praise and devotion to the country the people singing them happen to live in.

Some interesting facts about the American national anthem

Many people aren't aware there's a much longer version of the star spangled banner, and the shorter version sung today is significantly different from the original.

The song was originally created as strictly a drinking song.

The person who wrote the song was a slave owner; thought Black slavery was justified and had very ugly prejudices against Africans and African Americans. He also thought the KKK was a notable organization.

If the star spangled banner were reintroduced today with these known facts, chances are it would NEVER be accepted as an American national anthem. It's only that we're far removed from its origins that we've accepted it as some sort of symbolic idea of American patriotism. Much of its background has been forgotten or the American public is just flat out unaware.

 

[DFT]

There is absolutely no doubt he has the right to do so, it just seems to me that he is using his protest to draw attention to himself instead of the cause. Dozens and dozens of professional athletes spend their time and generous money for causes they believe in, behind the scenes, because it is NOT about them, unlike Kaepernick.

ETA: Just the other day I saw Shaq saying how bad he wants to be a Sherriff because he believes he can make a difference to narrow the racial divide. I respect that far more than I do some bench sitting protest, money donating, after the fact.

Shaq's been sworn as a deputy a number of times and worked many nights. His dedication to law enforcement I don't question. He did many ride alongs before that and his compass has never wavered. But he doesn't fit in a Crown Vic, so let's leave Shaq out of this.

As for Kaepernick - one word describes him - opportunity. He had one good season, since then he's been starting because the fans remembered that one.

It is good media moxie. End of the day he was a NFL washout two years ago who should have been benched - this is how he's marketing himself. Now that he's about to be cut he's suddenly a SJW.

What did he have to say when he was playing well? Nothing, that's what.

 

[SoTxBob]

Im behind on this but today I see its now gone from the 2 players to now several whole teams threatening to not stand during the pregame 'salute' on 9-11..... and for some reason, BLM is being tossed into the fray again.
Many seem to be calling for suspensions or even contract cancellations.
Seems to me that a game in a country that is supporting your dumb jock ass with $x millions per year, you could at least show some respect for the country and the games traditions..

 

[SexySteph]

Im behind on this but today I see its now gone from the 2 players to now several whole teams threatening to not stand during the pregame 'salute' on 9-11..... and for some reason, BLM is being tossed into the fray again.
Many seem to be calling for suspensions or even contract cancellations.
Seems to me that a game in a country that is supporting your dumb jock ass with $x millions per year, you could at least show some respect for the country and the games traditions..

Isn't the country made up of all of us though? They're American citizens too, so don't they get to decide how they want to show respect to their country. Perhaps their way of respecting their country is bringing attention to in hopes of changing the suffering that much of the country wants to ignore. Perhaps their way of respecting the country is wanting to make it better.

It's bizarre to me that certain groups *cough conservatives cough* think that they are the authority on how one should behave as an American citizen.

 

[Mikey_P]

A lot of people who are putting conditions on his protests would not have respected him any more if he would have done this when he was the latest and greatest QB of the moment. What they truly have a problem with is... protest and ideas that do not perfectly align with them. Look at how they have to ad hom him to make their point! Who are they fooling?

Citizens do not owe America anything but tax money and abiding by our laws!

 

[Mikey_P]

Im behind on this but today I see its now gone from the 2 players to now several whole teams threatening to not stand during the pregame 'salute' on 9-11..... and for some reason, BLM is being tossed into the fray again.
Many seem to be calling for suspensions or even contract cancellations.
Seems to me that a game in a country that is supporting your dumb jock ass with $x millions per year, you could at least show some respect for the country and the games traditions..

I love that they are doing this and I hope that even more teams and players participate in this protest! I even saw a video where high school players took a 'knee' during the anthem and it was awesome.

They are showing respect to the constitution and the nations ideals by protesting, which really is the most American thing you can do-- see the formation of this country and the ideals we consistently fail to uphold!

 

[Oliver]

I talked to a dude that said BLM and organizations like it should partake in more quiet peaceful protests(he used sit ins as an example). I asked "like not standing during the national anthem?" *crickets*

Protest has been happening in various ways since America was a series of colonies yet when people protest something we're still surprised? Oh and I rather him bring the movement media attention than funnel dollars to it...that "overblown"(for the record I think its overblown too but that's a whole different convo on our choices of role models and authority figures) coverage starts conversations....charitable giving often doesn't go past tax deductions