College degree - Worth it?

[pg240]

Tuition inflation is a problem, but so is grade inflation. I interview people with extremely high grade point averages, and they can't construct a coherent sentence. And they're trying to work in the word business! It truly makes me wonder what they're spending their money on, and why schools are turning them out unprepared.

Years ago in this country a lot of cities had technical high schools, but at least in my corner of it they've gone by the wayside. Kids studied academics half the day and learned a trade the other half. As juniors and seniors, they'd do on the job training in the community. When they graduated, the ones who really wanted to work had jobs waiting for them as printers, masons, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, etc. Good, honest work. Sure, the world has changed technically, but it still needs people to do the infrastructure work. Why not get them trained at a young age and quit pretending that everyone has to go to college.

If you're not pursing a niche degree requiring a definite skill, you're probably racking up a significant debt load that your earning capacity just might not support.

I definitely recommend trade/technical schools. What's a liberal arts degree going to get you these days? Seriously, when I got one all it got me was a foot in the door and the opportunity to sell myself. Does that even still hold true in this economy?

Colleges and universities certainly have their place. But I think the days of general studies are over. I loved history and sociology, but while I was studying that people were learning how to be accountants and actuaries and chemists and doctors and engineers.

Unless you're earning a degree in a field that absolutely demands you learn the material and master it, college just isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I can truly say that a college degree isn't all that great or significant, because I have one. I don't mean to demean anyone's accomplishments. I just think there was a time when too many people were unnecessarily pushed in the direction of college. Now that it's become such a costly beast that sends people out into the labor market already burdened with crushing debt, we should rethink that philosophy. Technical schools (especially in the computer fields) or two-year community colleges are a much better bet for most of us.

You can still watch the football and basketball games. You don't have to pay tuition to do that.

 

[BlueViolet]

I decided to go to trade school straight out of high school, so I graduated when I was 19 and making $20-25+/hr which was pretty great, but it wasn't something I enjoyed and it got me pretty heavy in debt so I didn't do it very long. It's nice to know I'll always have it to fall back on, though.

I've been camming since then and it's really felt like an extended summer vacation. I work maybe one - two nights a week (except for rent week I work three or four) and only a couple hours per night. I've really enjoyed it and it's given me a lot of time to get my future in order and not stress out about anything.

I do need to get Bachelor's degree to do what I want to along with farming one day, and in order to secure a job while traveling (work visa). In order to speed up my schooling and save a lot of money, I'm taking pretty much every CLEP exam that will transfer to my four-year college. I found out I'll only need to take about seven classes at the technical school to get my associate's and about five of those classes are online. I can easily get my associate's degree in a year and then take some extra CLEPs at the four-year and graduate in less than 3 years and not have to sit in class for most of it. (Plus, a lot of my degree will be field work.)

I don't personally like traditional schooling so I feel like this will work great for me. In this case, getting a BA will open a lot of doors for me and it will give me job security in something I want to do while being able to also settle down and start my farm.

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

It used to be a no-brainer to go to college just because it gave you credentials that employers wanted. Now, it's gotten so incredibly expensive that it's no longer so obviously a good deal. I've always though most people would benefit more from college if they worked a few years first (I certainly would have) -- paying attention to a few hours of classes and a couple hours of homework are no big deal once you've had to work all day.

Quite frankly, college taught me something about socialization and not much else that matters. Most of what I had to know to do my jobs, I learned from actually doing the jobs. I think college gives some interesting background, but it's probably only worth it if you need it to get hired for a job in your area of interest. You can still learn things that matter to you. Increasingly, there are good courses to be had for free online. You can also read things on your own. Really, going to college is a great experience and a good time if you can afford it, but I don't truly think it changes what you are capable of doing. It's worth it if it opens the doors you want to go through. Otherwise, it may be better to just get a job and maybe pick up a degree later with employer sponsorship or accumulated savings if you really want it.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Ilgunas made the dramatic decision after he graduated with 'unmarketable' English and history majors in 2005 and was rejected from 25 paid internships.
Fearing his $8-an-hour job pushing carts at Home Depot wouldn't help him pay off his $32,000 University of Buffalo undergraduate degree loan, Ilgunas became 'frantic'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...loan-gets-second-degree-living-VAN-years.html

Should it really be this hard to get a degree that may not even pay back the student loans?

The sad thing is I'm only 2 years in and I've already amassed more in loans than he did at graduation.

 

[Sevrin]

Ilgunas made the dramatic decision after he graduated with 'unmarketable' English and history majors in 2005 and was rejected from 25 paid internships.
Fearing his $8-an-hour job pushing carts at Home Depot wouldn't help him pay off his $32,000 University of Buffalo undergraduate degree loan, Ilgunas became 'frantic'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...loan-gets-second-degree-living-VAN-years.html

Should it really be this hard to get a degree that may not even pay back the student loans?

The sad thing is I'm only 2 years in and I've already amassed more in loans than he did at graduation.

Was gonna say. By American standards, graduating 32k in the hole isn't even that bad. You have to pay far too much to get an education down there. But English and History? Seriously? You need to know *exactly* how you are going to pay your rent before you go into liberal arts as a major.

'I didn't even know what interest was when I was 17.

I blame his parents for not teaching him about handling his finances, though. Teenagers should learn about money.

 

[trotskyleon]

'I didn't even know what interest was when I was 17.

I blame his parents for not teaching him about handling his finances, though. Teenagers should learn about money.

Maybe his parents didnt know? Or were too busy.

I learned about interest during school in maths.

Curious how do they dish out the loans? Can anyone and everyone apply and receive a student loan?

 

[Brad]

For myself my degree was not worth it financially as I do not use it for employment. (mechanically engineering degree in automated manufacturing) I guess I could if I wanted to get into that field but I only went back to get my degree for myself. Not for financial gain or a career so it was only worth it to me on a personal level. I value my education and actually enjoyed school. I was working 2 jobs and still graduated with honors so I was always pretty proud of that. I would have to look but I believe I finally graduated in 2003 but I don't remember for sure. It took a long time since I couldn't take a full class load.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

For myself my degree was not worth it financially as I do not use it for employment. (mechanically engineering degree in automated manufacturing) I guess I could if I wanted to get into that field but I only went back to get my degree for myself. Not for financial gain or a career so it was only worth it to me on a personal level. I value my education and actually enjoyed school. I was working 2 jobs and still graduated with honors so I was always pretty proud of that. I would have to look but I believe I finally graduated in 2003 but I don't remember for sure. It took a long time since I couldn't take a full class load.

Mechanical engineering is one of the best paying, most marketable jobs out there. Pretty easy to make a 6 figure salary in lots of places and more if you move up into management. I always thought getting my EE and Comp Sci degree was the best thing I ever did (my MBA was pretty marginal) but only because it unlocked some interesting, and at times, lucrative jobs.

 

[Brad]

For myself my degree was not worth it financially as I do not use it for employment. (mechanically engineering degree in automated manufacturing) I guess I could if I wanted to get into that field but I only went back to get my degree for myself. Not for financial gain or a career so it was only worth it to me on a personal level. I value my education and actually enjoyed school. I was working 2 jobs and still graduated with honors so I was always pretty proud of that. I would have to look but I believe I finally graduated in 2003 but I don't remember for sure. It took a long time since I couldn't take a full class load.

Mechanical engineering is one of the best paying, most marketable jobs out there. Pretty easy to make a 6 figure salary in lots of places and more if you move up into management. I always thought getting my EE and Comp Sci degree was the best thing I ever did (my MBA was pretty marginal) but only because it unlocked some interesting, and at times, lucrative jobs.

Not sure that at my age anyone would be interested as I would be not much different then a young guy fresh out of school and I'm 25 years older. (I am still better looking though.) I knew that when I re-enrolled in my 30s and I never expected to seek employment in that field. Not sure it would even fit me. It was just classes I took that interested me and the next thing you know you are finishing off a degree. Made it easy to pick my major at least.
:lol:

While the pay sucks, I kind of like what I do right now. I did really enjoy the CAD/CAM classes I had. I'm kind of a numbers geek too so I really liked the QC and stats classes also. For example I easily aced all the six sigma junk and even drug a few classmates through the class too. I totally get that kind of stuff for some reason. It is the same thing with Algebra.
:dontknow:

 

[bob]

Education and schooling are two completely different things.

this was my first thought reading the OP, too
it's true that for the sciences especially...a university education is still an important part of the dress code for one's chosen field....tho the back door to a career -in marine biology, for example- still exists, for those few people who are driven to pursue it....
personally, what i still cling to as being important about "higher education" is simply the opportunity to explore a variety of different subjects....the classic "liberal education"...
the fact that a liberal education doesn't mean jack in the modern world of "preparation for the job market" is a consideration, i suppose, depending on your motivations, but that kind of "free range" of human experience also a smorgasbord of knowledge, presented as the biggest picture possible. A lot of kids who have been set on a narrow path to success can still benefit from that big picture, if for no other reason than to taste a world full of context and choice...before all such insights are lost in the ongoing rush to catch up to the future.

 

[NataliaGrey]

Education and schooling are two completely different things.

this was my first thought reading the OP, too
it's true that for the sciences especially...a university education is still an important part of the dress code for one's chosen field....tho the back door to a career -in marine biology, for example- still exists, for those few people who are driven to pursue it....
personally, what i still cling to as being important about "higher education" is simply the opportunity to explore a variety of different subjects....the classic "liberal education"...
the fact that a liberal education doesn't mean jack in the modern world of "preparation for the job market" is a consideration, i suppose, depending on your motivations, but that kind of "free range" of human experience also a smorgasbord of knowledge, presented as the biggest picture possible. A lot of kids who have been set on a narrow path to success can still benefit from that big picture, if for no other reason than to taste a world full of context and choice...before all such insights are lost in the ongoing rush to catch up to the future.

This is a nice concept and I think it's good for people to learn a wide variety of fields, but at what cost? It's just too expensive to say "eh, this would be kinda cool to know!" I think almost everybody should go to community college, though. It's pretty cheap, especially with financial aid, and I believe in most subjects you can get just as good if not better of an education. At bigger schools professors are expected to be doing research and work on projects, so sometimes they'll have a TA take over and it's hard to get their attention outside of class. Community college professors have considerably more time and generally smaller class sizes in my experience.

I don't think people should spend a lot on education unless they either are going into a field where it's necessary or they just want to waste some cash.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I just found a website that gives a pretty clear view of how long it will take for a certain degree to be at the break even point of paying off all the loans. I tested it on my degree and it seems pretty close to the numbers I've been thinking.

Total cost of 4 years at this colege $88,454.
Median start salary $98,000.
Break even time 1.1 years.
Lifetime earnings $2,268,587
It really breaks it all down. Most people looking to go to college should go to this site to help make their decision.
http://www.collegeriskreport.com/

 

[LadyLuna]

I just found a website that gives a pretty clear view of how long it will take for a certain degree to be at the break even point of paying off all the loans. I tested it on my degree and it seems pretty close to the numbers I've been thinking.

Total cost of 4 years at this colege $88,454.
Median start salary $98,000.
Break even time 1.1 years.
Lifetime earnings $2,268,587
It really breaks it all down. Most people looking to go to college should go to this site to help make their decision.
http://www.collegeriskreport.com/

Um, the "break even" cost looks like it's not talking about how long to pay off the loans. Because it's just taking your total starting salary and putting the cost of college into it. And you have to pay for other things besides student loans when you're fresh out of college.

But that's just going off of your snippit.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I just found a website that gives a pretty clear view of how long it will take for a certain degree to be at the break even point of paying off all the loans. I tested it on my degree and it seems pretty close to the numbers I've been thinking.

Total cost of 4 years at this colege $88,454.
Median start salary $98,000.
Break even time 1.1 years.
Lifetime earnings $2,268,587
It really breaks it all down. Most people looking to go to college should go to this site to help make their decision.
http://www.collegeriskreport.com/

Um, the "break even" cost looks like it's not talking about how long to pay off the loans. Because it's just taking your total starting salary and putting the cost of college into it. And you have to pay for other things besides student loans when you're fresh out of college.

But that's just going off of your snippit.

Granted. This is calculated at devoting your salary to just paying back the loan to keep the pay off time period calculation comparable across the board. Otherwise it would also have to know average living expense of where you plan to live as well. And that would just get off topic of that site. The full pdf report fully explains how each number is calculated. I'm just on a tablet at the moment and didn't want to type that much.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I just found a website that gives a pretty clear view of how long it will take for a certain degree to be at the break even point of paying off all the loans. I tested it on my degree and it seems pretty close to the numbers I've been thinking.

Total cost of 4 years at this colege $88,454.
Median start salary $98,000.
Break even time 1.1 years.
Lifetime earnings $2,268,587
It really breaks it all down. Most people looking to go to college should go to this site to help make their decision.
http://www.collegeriskreport.com/

Nice website very simple to use. I can see a good opportunity to expand by including things like the amount of student loans interest rate, and current job salary.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think, like most things in life, it depends on who you are. My sister has a BFA with a specialty in sculpture. She literally spent 50k on a degree while welding her way into being an artist. Hehe. She lives in Michigan which is one of the worst states for unemployment. You'd think she'd be living on a parent's couch watching her college debt on an idiotic useless degree mount, right? Nope. She's one of those glowy people that everyone loves. Her useless degree got her foot in the door at a posh advertising agency. Ol' girl has insurance, vacations, spendy accounts, a huge ass house and is getting a second degree in animation. I'm 100% positive that there are probably 100 people in her local area who are more qualified on paper, but she's excellent at networking and being pleasant.

 

[Just Me]

It's not what you know, but who you know. One thing that is not taken into account about the costs of a college education is the networking opportunities. Especially the colleges where the alumni a very involved. The more expensive colleges, like the Ivy League schools, the people you can network with for future opportunities would be invaluable. As with all things it will depend on the career field and major you are pursuing on how much those networking opportunities will matter and if it is worth the cost to attend those schools.

Community college is a good way to keep your costs lower, but a recent report stated that of people attending community college who planned to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, only 11.4% actually completed that goal.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I think, like most things in life, it depends on who you are. My sister has a BFA with a specialty in sculpture. She literally spent 50k on a degree while welding her way into being an artist. Hehe. She lives in Michigan which is one of the worst states for unemployment. You'd think she'd be living on a parent's couch watching her college debt on an idiotic useless degree mount, right? Nope. She's one of those glowy people that everyone loves. Her useless degree got her foot in the door at a posh advertising agency. Ol' girl has insurance, vacations, spendy accounts, a huge ass house and is getting a second degree in animation. I'm 100% positive that there are probably 100 people in her local area who are more qualified on paper, but she's excellent at networking and being pleasant.

One of the richest guys I know (houses in San Francisco, Aspen, Martha's Vineyard and the nicest area in Honolulu) majored in Chinese Art History. It turns out that a white guy speaking fluent Mandarin, with a excellent understanding of Chinese culture is really helpful when doing business over there. I am sure his parents probably thought they were wasting their money on an Ivy league education so you never can tell.

 

[NataliaGrey]

It's not what you know, but who you know. One thing that is not taken into account about the costs of a college education is the networking opportunities. Especially the colleges where the alumni a very involved. The more expensive colleges, like the Ivy League schools, the people you can network with for future opportunities would be invaluable. As with all things it will depend on the career field and major you are pursuing on how much those networking opportunities will matter and if it is worth the cost to attend those schools.

Community college is a good way to keep your costs lower, but a recent report stated that of people attending community college who planned to transfer and get a bachelor's degree, only 11.4% actually completed that goal.

To be fair, a lot of people go to community college because they did badly in high school or they dropped out so it's one of their only options. And if you do badly in high school, there's a decent chance you will do badly in college (some people do turn it around). Also if you're not particularly motivated, it's a lot easier to drop out of a school that put you a grand in the hole, rather than one that costs more than you make in a year.

I don't think it has anything to do with the education they offer, but the people going to them.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

To be fair, a lot of people go to community college because they did badly in high school or they dropped out so it's one of their only options. And if you do badly in high school, there's a decent chance you will do badly in college (some people do turn it around). Also if you're not particularly motivated, it's a lot easier to drop out of a school that put you a grand in the hole, rather than one that costs more than you make in a year.

I don't think it has anything to do with the education they offer, but the people going to them.

Quick funny story about that. I first went to a community college 20 years ago and had really great teachers. A couple math teachers were amazing in fact. In high school I dropped out of algebra because I had a horrible teacher who just didn't know how to teach. I get to college and end up starting back in 'high school' algebra. But this time the teacher is amazing. End up taking every math course they offered all the way through calculus.

Cut to 20 years later and I'm back in college at a 4 year Science and Technology University. I decide to sit back in a calculus class because it's been 20 years. I'm having a discussion with the teacher one day about having had started out at a community college up in Minnesota and having really great teachers back then. He starts to get a little bit arrogant about how community colleges aren't as good and students are better off starting right away at the good 4 year ones.

I decide to put him in his place then. I ask him to open the calculus book he's using for the class to the author's page. I point one of the co-authors is the lady teacher from my community college, the one who turned it all around for me. Then to put the icing on the cake I have him do the same for the teacher's solution manual he's getting all his answers from to know how to write out the problems on the board. The main author of that book was a second teacher I had at that same community college. Both of them have written books that are being used in colleges all over the country. I don't think he felt as smug after that. I have to admit it kind of felt good. :lol:

 

[pg240]

I encourage young people to start with two years of community college. They're quite good in our state, credits transfer to state schools easily, and they're so much less expensive. Given the debt load young people enter the marketplace with, getting the core courses out of the way at a two-year school just makes good fiscal sense. Not as much fun, perhaps, and I do realize that the social factor is a big deal to kids. But how much fun is it taking years and years to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars? And about that debt load, do they still hand out credit cards like candy to college kids as they arrive on campus? Hope not.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I encourage young people to start with two years of community college. They're quite good in our state, credits transfer to state schools easily, and they're so much less expensive. Given the debt load young people enter the marketplace with, getting the core courses out of the way at a two-year school just makes good fiscal sense. Not as much fun, perhaps, and I do realize that the social factor is a big deal to kids. But how much fun is it taking years and years to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars? And about that debt load, do they still hand out credit cards like candy to college kids as they arrive on campus? Hope not.

Credit cards? Yes.

I also think community college is great for all the reasons you mentioned. But I say that with one caveat. The student really needs to think about what degree they may be interested in IF it's going to be a specialized one. The Petroleum Engineering degree I'm currently going for does not work to the student's advantage to go to community college first. In fact it ends up costing them more and takes a longer time to finish.

Yes you get the core classes out of the way but you still have to go to this college 4 years. The classes in the main degree program mostly all have prerequisite other classes that need to be taken first. And the program is set up in such a way as to only teach certain classes once a year to minimize the teacher's required in the department.

So it ends up being four years JUST to get the petroleum classes themselves done. And since, to qualify for financial aid, you have to be going full time you still have to take a full load every semester. You 'can't' just take one or two petroleum classes if that's all you really need because once you become less than full time status you have 6 months from then and you have to start paying back school loans.

In the end you end up paying for the full four years of college at the University plus the two years at the Community College. You're better off financially just starting out at the University directly for some degrees.

 

[Bocefish]

Some good related articles:

http://www.thecitywire.com/node/28220#.Ubn5ZPnUk20

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/college ... egree.aspx

 

[pg240]

I encourage young people to start with two years of community college. They're quite good in our state, credits transfer to state schools easily, and they're so much less expensive. Given the debt load young people enter the marketplace with, getting the core courses out of the way at a two-year school just makes good fiscal sense. Not as much fun, perhaps, and I do realize that the social factor is a big deal to kids. But how much fun is it taking years and years to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars? And about that debt load, do they still hand out credit cards like candy to college kids as they arrive on campus? Hope not.

Credit cards? Yes.

I also think community college is great for all the reasons you mentioned. But I say that with one caveat. The student really needs to think about what degree they may be interested in IF it's going to be a specialized one. The Petroleum Engineering degree I'm currently going for does not work to the student's advantage to go to community college first. In fact it ends up costing them more and takes a longer time to finish.

Yes you get the core classes out of the way but you still have to go to this college 4 years. The classes in the main degree program mostly all have prerequisite other classes that need to be taken first. And the program is set up in such a way as to only teach certain classes once a year to minimize the teacher's required in the department.

So it ends up being four years JUST to get the petroleum classes themselves done. And since, to qualify for financial aid, you have to be going full time you still have to take a full load every semester. You 'can't' just take one or two petroleum classes if that's all you really need because once you become less than full time status you have 6 months from then and you have to start paying back school loans.

In the end you end up paying for the full four years of college at the University plus the two years at the Community College. You're better off financially just starting out at the University directly for some degrees.

Points are well taken. People definitely should check first with the registrar or dean of admissions at the four-year school they expect (or hope!) to attend before enrolling in a community college. Make sure you're taking the right classes and make sure they'll transfer. You may want to attend just one year before transferring. But definitely do your homework before launching any degree path.