Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" state?

[Shaun__]

Four employees fired for wearing orange shirts. Good thing management nipped that in the bud, or they may have ended up having happy productive workers or something.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

Did you see this one on Fark as well?

The whole story is that the four employees were wearing orange so they could appear as a group when going out for happy hour that Friday.

Unfortunately at the time there was also a protest going on against the company, and the protesters identified themselves by wearing orange.

Since the fired employees were the ones telling their stories to the reporters, I suppose we have to trust that they were indeed in no way connected to the protest going on.

In my opinion? It sucks that they lost their jobs, but they were aware of the protest going on and they should have been smarter about how they chose to identify themselves. If a group of people in blue were striking at my old job I sure as hell wouldn't show up to work in a navy polo shirt.

On the other hand, if the company jumped at that excuse to lay off four workers, they were probably already going to downsize or fire a couple of them anyway.

Edit - pronoun fix & extra bits.

 

[JickyJuly]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

I never put much thought into it, but I guess I was under the impression that all states were at will? This has blown my mind a bit. I've had jobs in 4 states (fired in 2 states hehehe) and all were at will.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

I'm actually not aware of any American state that disallows at-will employment, except apparently Montana.

I believe that in the USA, being the ardent capitalists we are, all jobs are considered to be at-will unless specifically stated. Some states have extra provisions that alter this a bit. For example, I believe my state (California) gives some legal protection if your boss is being a dick and fires you for malicious reasons.

But yeah, basically in America your job is never guaranteed by law. That is why good positions have severance packages and things like that - even if you get fired, you're taken care of. Because they can fire you for any reason.

Granted, there have been more than a few lawsuits about unfair termination. There is recourse.

(Now if we can just get rid of the unions...)

 

[joshbra]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

Now if we could just get rid of everyone that benefits from anything the unions won and is still against them, like the 40 hour week, OSHA protections, minimum wage, mandatory overtime pay, minimum breaks, no child labor, or anything else we take for granted in our modern western society.

I know some people like to point to Mexico, China and India and say "See all the jobs are going to them because their labor is so much cheaper" All you have to do is pay attention to see that once those places have had industy for awhile they are trying to unionize now to to improve their lives. You hear about labor organizers being targeted for violence by employers just like they were here, look at what happened in Detroit: http://www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/fmc/battle.asp taken from the Henry Ford Museum website no less. I realize this is small potatoes compared to the outright murders of union organizers at the Mexican Coca-Cola plants. And in China they are looking to move factories inland and away from the coasts where labor has gotten more expensive as their workers learn their value and have run out of uneducated farmers/unskilled laborers desperate for any job.

Hell China is outsourcing to Africa where they can get away with manufacturing fake prescription drugs and ignoring other health and safety regulations that they can't get away with ignoring at home.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

It's rather a catch-22: Unions make lives better and the economy worse, which in turn makes lives worse... but without unions most people would be fucked anyway.

 

[SoTxBob]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

To the OP: I have to wonder how stupid those 4 were to wear the protest colors to work at all, let alone only all 4 one time. Common sense to me to not identify as anti company.

As for Unions .. perhaps in blooming capitalistic countries like China, Africa, even Romania, etc, there is still a place for them. Here in the USA, their time has passed. The Govt now has enough regulations in place to 'protect' the workers safety and rights etc. and the labor cost that they add doesn't promote as much new business growth as there could be without them... Think about it.. If the UAW wages didn't average well over $35 an hour, we might actually have cars that are more affordable. Friends that work for Ford make an average $48 an hour not including "employee discounts" and bonuses. They've been there almost 20 years tho and aren't recent hires. Has anyone ever seen a parking lot full of Lincoln Navigators owned by assembly line workers and not anywhere near pimps or Celebrity's ? :confusion-shrug:

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

To the OP: I have to wonder how stupid those 4 were to wear the protest colors to work at all, let alone only all 4 one time. Common sense to me to not identify as anti company.

As for Unions .. perhaps in blooming capitalistic countries like China, Africa, even Romania, etc, there is still a place for them. Here in the USA, their time has passed. The Govt now has enough regulations in place to 'protect' the workers safety and rights etc. and the labor cost that they add doesn't promote as much new business growth as there could be without them... Think about it.. If the UAW wages didn't average well over $35 an hour, we might actually have cars that are more affordable. Friends that work for Ford make an average $48 an hour not including "employee discounts" and bonuses. They've been there almost 20 years tho and aren't recent hires. Has anyone ever seen a parking lot full of Lincoln Navigators owned by assembly line workers and not anywhere near pimps or Celebrity's ? :confusion-shrug:

How is wearing the same color shirt a protest? They were showing up to work everyday and doing their job. As far as the UAW goes they had nothing that management did not decide to give them. The union was not the problem, it was incompetent management. My union does not get a damn thing our company does not want to offer us. At negotiation time they throw down what they will offer and then our union tries to beat back the worst parts of the offer. Do not forget that the Japanese and Europeans are only nonunion in the US not in their home country plants. I would also like to know why people get so upset when the people who make the product make a middle class wage. Usually they will ignore the upper management who make millions every year, the middle management who make hundreds of thousands every year, and the lower management who make the same as the line workers.

 

[Marokite]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

Most states have some sort of policies in place to protect employees from employers being assholes. Things like requiring them to show that the employee actually did something wrong before firing them. You may have seen this as "written warnings" or an implied contract like "employee will be dismissed if they fail to follow the employee manual". Other things might be allowing the protections of a union. In some states where "at-will" is the rule without exception, people can be fired for absolutely no reason at all. And when I say no reason, I don't mean for a dumb reason. You can show up to work and be simply told not to come back...
I live in Florida. They call it a "Right-to-Work" state. So guess what? Instead of being a place where employment is a basic right, the fact is no employee is protected at all. They claim it is to guarantee everyone can get work. That they are protecting employees from the "evils" of unions. But they are actually protecting the businesses from the unions. Employees have to suffer the consequences of "At-Will" as there is no one that can prevent employer abuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

The truth of the matter is that there are no federal laws that provide the protections of a union. There are anti-discrimination laws and safety laws sure. But these do not protect an employee from an employer's underhanded tricks, manipulations and monetary abuse. If the unions are to completely go away, then the federal government or the states would need to all agree on basic principles that prevent "At-Will" abuse.

 

[SoTxBob]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

IDK.. perhaps I'm not reading it correctly....

The whole story is, at the time there was a protest going on against the company, and the protesters identified themselves by wearing orange.
......It sucks that they lost their jobs, but they were aware of the protest going on and they should have been smarter about how they chose to identify themselves. If a group of people in blue were striking at my old job I sure as hell wouldn't show up to work in a navy polo shirt.

At least to me, thats simple common sense.
I'd also imagine they all had more colors in their closets they could have chosen.

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

IDK.. perhaps I'm not reading it correctly....

The whole story is, at the time there was a protest going on against the company, and the protesters identified themselves by wearing orange.
......It sucks that they lost their jobs, but they were aware of the protest going on and they should have been smarter about how they chose to identify themselves. If a group of people in blue were striking at my old job I sure as hell wouldn't show up to work in a navy polo shirt.

At least to me, thats simple common sense.
I'd also imagine they all had more colors in their closets they could have chosen.

You did not read the story then.

This Friday, 14 workers wearing orange shirts were called into a conference room, where an executive said he understood there was a protest involving orange, the employees were wearing orange, and they all were fired.

The executive said anyone wearing orange for an innocent reason should speak up. One employee immediately denied involvement with a protest and explained the happy-hour color.

The executives conferred outside the room, returned and upheld the decision: all fired, said Lou Erik Ambert, 31, of Coconut Creek, a litigation para-legal who said he was terminated.

Also they were not breaking any company rules at all. I personally have been going about my business at work before, and suddenly learned almost everyone else had decided to not go to a meal for some stupid reason or other. By your reasoning I should be fired with them because I did not like what they were serving and had brought my lunch in the same as always.

"There is no office policy against wearing orange shirts. We had no warning. We got no severance, no package, no nothing," said Ambert

 

[SoTxBob]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

No, I don't usually do any "research" or click exterior links to this kind of post and take the posts at face value. If you don't post any details, apparently they aren't relevant to your comments most of the time. It's usually someones bitch or thread fodder anyway and isn't what I consider necessary. Whats the term here? ... Oh yes.. entertainment.

Despite what you have additionally posted, after the fact, it still seems common sense about the color association. A minuscule bit of forethought on their part, all of this would have been a non issue and they would have been fired another way .....But what do I know?

IDK.. perhaps I'm not reading it correctly....

The whole story is, at the time there was a protest going on against the company, and the protesters identified themselves by wearing orange.
......It sucks that they lost their jobs, but they were aware of the protest going on and they should have been smarter about how they chose to identify themselves. If a group of people in blue were striking at my old job I sure as hell wouldn't show up to work in a navy polo shirt.

At least to me, thats simple common sense.
I'd also imagine they all had more colors in their closets they could have chosen.

You did not read the story then.

This Friday, 14 workers wearing orange shirts were called into a conference room, where an executive said he understood there was a protest involving orange, the employees were wearing orange, and they all were fired.

The executive said anyone wearing orange for an innocent reason should speak up. One employee immediately denied involvement with a protest and explained the happy-hour color.

The executives conferred outside the room, returned and upheld the decision: all fired, said Lou Erik Ambert, 31, of Coconut Creek, a litigation para-legal who said he was terminated.

Also they were not breaking any company rules at all. I personally have been going about my business at work before, and suddenly learned almost everyone else had decided to not go to a meal for some stupid reason or other. By your reasoning I should be fired with them because I did not like what they were serving and had brought my lunch in the same as always.

"There is no office policy against wearing orange shirts. We had no warning. We got no severance, no package, no nothing," said Ambert

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

No, I don't usually do any "research" or click exterior links to this kind of post and take the posts at face value. If you don't post any details, apparently they aren't relevant to your comments most of the time. It's usually someones bitch or thread fodder anyway and isn't what I consider necessary. Whats the term here? ... Oh yes.. entertainment.

Despite what you have additionally posted, after the fact, it still seems common sense about the color association. A minuscule bit of forethought on their part, all of this would have been a non issue and they would have been fired another way .....But what do I know?

Even after all you said I hope you never get fired for accidentally wearing the same color shirt as several other people. I have gone to work before and three quarters of the people there have the same color shirt on. Most people do not talk about it the day before to avoid that.

I still think this is a very shitty way to run a business. They clearly want their employees in a constant state of fear. I would avoid any place with that kind of work environment. The chances of a secretly disgruntled employee getting revenge by screwing things up or a fired employee returning armed are too large.

 

[Diana Blake]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

When I lived in Florida something similar happened at the hospital I was working at. A couple of the CNAs all came in wearing Obama shirts under their scrubs a few weeks before he was elected. They were all fired and the reasoning was that the shirts were designed to "cause and uproar". Several employees complained but they never got their jobs back.

Florida is pretty bad about at-will firings. I had a friend fired from her job with a contracting company because someone outed her as being into BDSM. There were no pictures of her face anywhere, there was no way that she was defacing the company in any way but because she likes getting strapped to a bench and spanked she was terminated. There are supposed to be legal actions you can take to protect yourself from this sort of thing but she found that (at least in her situation) there wasn't a lawyer in town that would touch her case.

 

[Mirra]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

I think Marokite is on to something. It has more to do with Right to Work statutes than "at-will" employment. Workers' rights vary a bit from state to state but generally speaking I believe those with Right to Work statutes follow a phrase that was used ad nauseum in the Commercial Law class I took last summer.

"An employer can fire anyone for any reason but the wrong reason."

In many states (mine included I believe) they don't even have to provide a reason for the termination so even if it was technically wrongful if there is no proof and it is never stated, the (former) employee is fucked. Even then, what is and is not wrongful may not be what would seem logical.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

No, I don't usually do any "research" or click exterior links to this kind of post and take the posts at face value. If you don't post any details, apparently they aren't relevant to your comments most of the time. It's usually someones bitch or thread fodder anyway and isn't what I consider necessary. Whats the term here? ... Oh yes.. entertainment.

Despite what you have additionally posted, after the fact, it still seems common sense about the color association. A minuscule bit of forethought on their part, all of this would have been a non issue and they would have been fired another way .....But what do I know?

Even after all you said I hope you never get fired for accidentally wearing the same color shirt as several other people. I have gone to work before and three quarters of the people there have the same color shirt on. Most people do not talk about it the day before to avoid that.

I still think this is a very shitty way to run a business. They clearly want their employees in a constant state of fear. I would avoid any place with that kind of work environment. The chances of a secretly disgruntled employee getting revenge by screwing things up or a fired employee returning armed are too large.

Your point is that it sucks that some people got fired, but it seems like you don't really care about the story. Your post seemed more like a "Look, let's be outraged that people got fired working in a state notorious for people being fired". You didn't even bother to mention that the employees were associated with protesters at the company. Your position seems to be that we should be angry at a company for firing people, regardless of the story or what happened. Yes, the company fired four people for wearing the wrong color but there was a reason behind it. They didn't walk in to the office and decided, "I think I shall fire me some employees who are wearing yellow today."

Yes, it was indeed shitty that the people got fired, but if you were running a business with four valued employees you needed, you wouldn't fire them for no reason. Either it was a no-tolerance policy from corporate or they found a nice excuse to speed up downsizing that was about to happen.

It probably does suck to work for that company and they probably were just sending a message to the other employees. But at least you could try to have a point behind your post, not just, "bad things happened for reasons not immediately clear, so let's be angry at The Man."

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

Your point is that it sucks that some people got fired, but it seems like you don't really care about the story. Your post seemed more like a "Look, let's be outraged that people got fired working in a state notorious for people being fired". You didn't even bother to mention that the employees were associated with protesters at the company. Your position seems to be that we should be angry at a company for firing people, regardless of the story or what happened. Yes, the company fired four people for wearing the wrong color but there was a reason behind it. They didn't walk in to the office and decided, "I think I shall fire me some employees who are wearing yellow today."

Nowhere in the story does it say they were associated with the protesters. The only mention of protestors is the executive saying they had heard there were some wearing orange shirts. They claimed they wore orange on Fridays to go to the bar, and no one has said they were not being truthful in the story.

Yes, it was indeed shitty that the people got fired, but if you were running a business with four valued employees you needed, you wouldn't fire them for no reason. Either it was a no-tolerance policy from corporate or they found a nice excuse to speed up downsizing that was about to happen.

The story says they were not violating any policies. If they were downsizing they should have been laid off and given references for their job hunt.

It probably does suck to work for that company and they probably were just sending a message to the other employees. But at least you could try to have a point behind your post, not just, "bad things happened for reasons not immediately clear, so let's be angry at The Man."

I did have a reason behind my post. I was bored and wanted something to talk about. Legally this company has done nothing wrong that I am aware of, so besides being upset at what I view as inferior management style there is nothing really say about this. You could say bad things happened for reasons not immediately clear, but I think this was about making an example.

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

Your point is that it sucks that some people got fired, but it seems like you don't really care about the story. Your post seemed more like a "Look, let's be outraged that people got fired working in a state notorious for people being fired". You didn't even bother to mention that the employees were associated with protesters at the company. Your position seems to be that we should be angry at a company for firing people, regardless of the story or what happened. Yes, the company fired four people for wearing the wrong color but there was a reason behind it. They didn't walk in to the office and decided, "I think I shall fire me some employees who are wearing yellow today."

Nowhere in the story does it say they were associated with the protesters. The only mention of protestors is the executive saying they had heard there were some wearing orange shirts. They claimed they wore orange on Fridays to go to the bar, and no one has said they were not being truthful in the story.

My only point of contention here is that the story is not the ultimate source of authority. Journalists talked to the employees and took their word for it. The article does even say, "Four workers tell the story this way". All the information available was what the fired employees said (not even all of them, mind you, only four out of the fourteen fired). The article said they had no information from the company itself.

I'm not saying they blatantly lied, or necessarily lied at all, just that we have been presented with a one-sided story from a group of wronged people.

 

[JickyJuly]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

It's rather a catch-22: Unions make lives better and the economy worse, which in turn makes lives worse... but without unions most people would be fucked anyway.

The "unions are greedy/bad for the economy on the whole" dispute makes me so hulksmashy. I'm from Flint, MI. My Dad supported our family working for GM and still works there after 30+ years, my grandparents both worked in a GM office building until retirement and at least half of my friends came from families with similar stories.

Alll unions do is try to get more for the workers. The dudes who do less work and make more in a year than any shop rat will see over the course of his life pretend that unions are the reason American cars get more expensive, but in what alternate universe is it not okay for a person who spends 8+ hours working with his/her hands, in a cold, fast paced dungenous shit-hole to want better compensation and protection?

Even with unions, people who give their life to GM have been screwed. A few years ago, my Grandparents' insurance was dropped because they're old. Apparently, it's okay for companies to take away your retirement package if you've lived too long for their liking. Many unionized workers also put back into the company they work for. Every time they received profit sharing or bonuses, my grandparents bought GM stock. Can't imagine that's paid off very well now.

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

My only point of contention here is that the story is not the ultimate source of authority. Journalists talked to the employees and took their word for it. The article does even say, "Four workers tell the story this way". All the information available was what the fired employees said (not even all of them, mind you, only four out of the fourteen fired). The article said they had no information from the company itself.

I'm not saying they blatantly lied, or necessarily lied at all, just that we have been presented with a one-sided story from a group of wronged people.

You misunderstood the story. All the employees in orange were fired, but four of them talked about to a reporter. The story also has the companies response, "no comment at this time.".

 

[Evvie]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

It's rather a catch-22: Unions make lives better and the economy worse, which in turn makes lives worse... but without unions most people would be fucked anyway.

The "unions are greedy/bad for the economy on the whole" dispute makes me so hulksmashy. I'm from Flint, MI. My Dad supported our family working for GM and still works there after 30+ years, my grandparents both worked in a GM office building until retirement and at least half of my friends came from families with similar stories.

Alll unions do is try to get more for the workers. The dudes who do less work and make more in a year than any shop rat will see over the course of his life pretend that unions are the reason American cars get more expensive, but in what alternate universe is it not okay for a person who spends 8+ hours working with his/her hands, in a cold, fast paced dungenous shit-hole to want better compensation and protection?

Even with unions, people who give their life to GM have been screwed. A few years ago, my Grandparents' insurance was dropped because they're old. Apparently, it's okay for companies to take away your retirement package if you've lived too long for their liking. Many unionized workers also put back into the company they work for. Every time they received profit sharing or bonuses, my grandparents bought GM stock. Can't imagine that's paid off very well now.

My point is definitely not that worker rights are bad. Far from it. It's just that in terms of hard, economic science, unions are bad for a macro economy. I don't think people start unions saying "let's see how much money we can take, muahahaha", and I'd gamble that's a phrase rarely spoken even now. If it were up to me, I'd vote for keeping unions, because despite any broad-scale economic harm, I think they've done more good. I can't say I know enough about unions to have more of an opinion than that.

Evvie wrote:
My only point of contention here is that the story is not the ultimate source of authority. Journalists talked to the employees and took their word for it. The article does even say, "Four workers tell the story this way". All the information available was what the fired employees said (not even all of them, mind you, only four out of the fourteen fired). The article said they had no information from the company itself.

I'm not saying they blatantly lied, or necessarily lied at all, just that we have been presented with a one-sided story from a group of wronged people.

You misunderstood the story. All the employees in orange were fired, but four of them talked about to a reporter. The story also has the companies response, "no comment at this time.".

That is literally exactly what I said. All 14 employees were fired; 4 of them talked to the media. The journalists talked to the company but got no information out of them. Thus, the story is one-sided no matter how you look at it. It reports the stories from one side of the argument, but not the other.

 

[JickyJuly]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

It's rather a catch-22: Unions make lives better and the economy worse, which in turn makes lives worse... but without unions most people would be fucked anyway.

The "unions are greedy/bad for the economy on the whole" dispute makes me so hulksmashy. I'm from Flint, MI. My Dad supported our family working for GM and still works there after 30+ years, my grandparents both worked in a GM office building until retirement and at least half of my friends came from families with similar stories.

Alll unions do is try to get more for the workers. The dudes who do less work and make more in a year than any shop rat will see over the course of his life pretend that unions are the reason American cars get more expensive, but in what alternate universe is it not okay for a person who spends 8+ hours working with his/her hands, in a cold, fast paced dungenous shit-hole to want better compensation and protection?

Even with unions, people who give their life to GM have been screwed. A few years ago, my Grandparents' insurance was dropped because they're old. Apparently, it's okay for companies to take away your retirement package if you've lived too long for their liking. Many unionized workers also put back into the company they work for. Every time they received profit sharing or bonuses, my grandparents bought GM stock. Can't imagine that's paid off very well now.

My point is definitely not that worker rights are bad. Far from it. It's just that in terms of hard, economic science, unions are bad for a macro economy. I don't think people start unions saying "let's see how much money we can take, muahahaha", and I'd gamble that's a phrase rarely spoken even now. If it were up to me, I'd vote for keeping unions, because despite any broad-scale economic harm, I think they've done more good. I can't say I know enough about unions to have more of an opinion than that.

My experience with unions is only personal. So, I can't say that I know tons, but my experience is with a union that is notoriously blamed for the downfall of its city. Most people in the Flint know it's not the union's fault and the mukky muks that killed the city probably don't spend much time there. Anywhoos, unions pretty much work like a governing, democratic body for the workers. They pay dues, hold votes, propose changes etc. It keeps people from breaking off and staging useless/self-harming rebellions on their own because they vote, debate and approach things civilly first. Are unions bad for global economy? Yes. But global economy takes advantage of weaker, needier working people. If people in foreign lands were able to unionize at their measley waged, dangerous jobs would prices here go up a bit? For sure. Doesn't mean it would be a bad thing to happen. I'd happily pay a bit more for shit I don't need and will likely break in hopes of people being a bit more powerful within their workplace myself. :dance:

 

[LadyLuna]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

For all we know, all 14 were in on the bar hop, and someone jealous about not being able to go to the bars reported it as a "protest" to management, when it was nothing of the kind.

As to unions- all I know is they did good in the past, and that I don't agree with most of what the teacher's union has done in the past decade. Also, in the states where I attempted, to become a teacher you HAD to join the union.

 

[Mirra]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

As to unions- all I know is they did good in the past, and that I don't agree with most of what the teacher's union has done in the past decade. Also, in the states where I attempted, to become a teacher you HAD to join the union.

Yeah... Mom joined the teacher's union mostly for the protection of a union supplied lawyer if anything gets out of hand but she does NOT advertise that she belongs to the local teacher's union. It's highly frowned upon in SC and isn't really like the unions you hear about in other parts of the country. The south and parts of the midwest are so anti-union people almost sound like they're going to spit just mentioning the word.

 

[Shaun__]

Re: Ever wonder what it is like to work in an "at-will" stat

That is literally exactly what I said. All 14 employees were fired; 4 of them talked to the media. The journalists talked to the company but got no information out of them. Thus, the story is one-sided no matter how you look at it. It reports the stories from one side of the argument, but not the other.

[embarrassed]I accused you of skimming and you caught me skimming. :lol:[/embarrassed] The reason the story is one sided is because the company declined a chance to respond, this was not an intentional hatchet job by a reporter. That is a good sign that they had no reason for doing what they did , or at least not one they wanted other people to know.