Katsumichann.... whorenickels

[Mila_]

Were those really BLM protesters? Sounds more like what protesters from the New Black Panther Party or another black separatist group would say.

Did you even watch the videos?

 

[Guy]

Did you even watch the videos?

I was talking about the first one.

 

[Mila_]

I was talking about the first one.

Millions March NYC protest.

 

[RebeccaT]

@Songbird_Shelly I understand that you are upset over the WNs show, you are right to be. I dont think it was a nice show and the fact that it touches you personally amplifies the feeling (and makes MFCs reaction more difficult to accept) I get that. My problem isn't with you or the people who felt wronged by her. PumpkinSpice must also feel shitty over her PS show, and she has a right to be.

It should touch us all personally and we should all be upset and feel shitty.

And art as a defence? It would be interesting to see that defence used by someone caught with child pornography on their computer.

In another webcam forum someone has asked how she can become famous. Well, this seems to work for WN.

 

[Mila_]

It should touch us all personally and we should all be upset and feel shitty.

And art as a defence? It would be interesting to see that defence used by someone caught with child pornography on their computer.

In another webcam forum someone has asked how she can become famous. Well, this seems to work for WN.

People are more sensitive to their own issues and history than to the issues and history of others. I dont expect a indian man to feel the same way I do about the Holocaust and I dont pretend or want to feel the same way a black person feels about slavery because its not the history of my people and my ancestors didnt live through that. So even when I find WNs show distasteful I dont pretend like it affects me like it affects a black person.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Please explain this to me then Jolene:



Explain this too:



How about this:



I never said all BLM supporters feel this way but there are 100s of examples like this, which does mean something. It means at least several segments of this group are criminally violent. Truth is the violent rhetoric of BLM is at the root of this. No two ways about it. You don't get to promote violence and racial hatred towards other groups and then wash your hands when your supporters act on it.

I wasn't disagreeing that these things are happening, I was disagreeing with what I quoted, that nobody finds them troublesome. I highly disagree with your opinion that nobody finds them troublesome. I was talking about the founders when I said leaders, and that was lazy wording on my part for sure. The movements founders have spoken out against the violence but they are not bosses, they are founders of a social movement of the people to speak out against the violence in our tax paid, oath sworn public servants office and demand change.

But to say no one finds these things troubling is just plain wrong.

 

[Mila_]

I wasn't disagreeing that these things are happening, I was disagreeing with what I quoted, that nobody finds them troublesome. I highly disagree with your opinion that nobody finds them troublesome. I was talking about the founders when I said leaders, and that was lazy wording on my part for sure. The movements founders have spoken out against the violence but they are not bosses, they are founders of a social movement of the people to speak out against the violence in our tax paid, oath sworn public servants office and demand change.

But to say no one finds these things troubling is just plain wrong.

Yeah you are right, it was wrong, a lot of people find it troublesome, me included, I got carried away and it was an exaggeration to claim nobody bats an eye. What I truly meant by that and I wish I had worded better is there isn't a big public outcry when blacks are racist towards whites, especially when BLM does it. The media doesn't display it, no public figures make a fuss. If it was a white person calling for the death of black babies under the banner of an entire movement it would be all over the news. And even on the personal level, even here, regular people, non-racist people, will go out of their way to defend BLM in spite of the heaps of evidence that they are not a peaceful movement.

What does BLM do? They call for segregation. They refuse service to whites just because they are whites. They ban white people from their meetings. They attack and interrupt events all the time, the ones they don't like (i.e. they physically assaulted Milo Yiannopoulos at DePaul University and threatened to kill him) but they also interrupt events of people who are likely on their side, they hijacked and attempted to shut down the Toronto Gay Pride Parade for not being intersectional enough, or Bernie Sanders rally with threats of violence. They call for the death of cops in their protests, and for the death of whites even.

And since you talk about the movement's founders, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometione, the co-founders of the movement speak often in interviews about one of their most revered ideological gurus: Assata Shakur, on the FBI's most wanted list for six different accounts, including several murders, and for the killing cops. She fled to Cuba where she was given refuge because she is a communist. She never served her sentence. The movement has other heroes too: Mumia Abu-Jamal, a convicted murderer who was sentenced to death for the murder of Philadelphia police officer Daniel Faulkner in 1981, they letter changed his sentence to life in prison. Another hero is George Jackson who killed 4 people and a judge. Etc, etc, etc.

We cannot claim with a straight face this is a peaceful movement. There are peaceful people who support them because they don't know better, and we shouldn't judge every BLM supporter like they understand what the founders intended. But we shouldn't defend BLM, their founders, or their agenda because it is an inherently racist movement with a violent underbelly that is looking to create racial hatred and divides among people.

Edit: what exactly do you guys disagree with? All I stated here are facts. Do you disagree with reality?

 

[AwesomeKate]

Mila, are you familiar with the colloquial definition of racism (The one being used far more often on social media than the one in the dictionary)? Yes, the textbook definition states that anyone can be racist and be the victim of racism, but that's not how the term is used in popular culture now. You are wondering why people aren't referring to black people as racist and it's because of this change in common definition. The word racist has come to mean 'Prejudice + Power'. This definition makes it so that people in power cannot be the victims of racism and those persons without power cannot be racist. Hence people on social media repeatedly stating that 'Black people can't be racist', 'White people don't experience racism', ect. I didn't understand why people would say those things until I realized they were defining the word differently than I was. It all makes more sense now.

 

[Mila_]

Mila, are you familiar with the colloquial definition of racism (The one being used far more often on social media than the one in the dictionary)? Yes, the textbook definition states that anyone can be racist and be the victim of racism, but that's not how the term is used in popular culture now. You are wondering why people aren't referring to black people as racist and it's because of this change in common definition. The word racist has come to mean 'Prejudice + Power'. This definition makes it so that people in power cannot be the victims of racism and those persons without power cannot be racist. Hence people on social media repeatedly stating that 'Black people can't be racist', 'White people don't experience racism', ect. I didn't understand why people would say those things until I realized they were defining the word differently than I was. It all makes more sense now.

I am familiar with that concept of racism, with critical theory, and everything else. I just don't buy into that worldview. Everyone has a quota of power so anyone can be racist. You have power over the people around you. Everyone does regardless of their race. You can mistreat someone and make them feel bad, that is power. Sounds innocuous but it isn't. You can key someone's car even if he is more powerful than you and you just made him waste time and money fixing it. You can climb to the top of a building and snipe cops. That is power as well. Whomever believes there are people who are absolute victims and therefore can never wrong others is fooling himself. Blacks can be racist against whites, and whites against blacks, and any other combination you can think of. Even systems themselves can be oppressive towards one race or another, regardless to who is in power. You see it in sex relations too. Women might not be *seen* as the sex in power, but even if it was true that the system "favors men", women have incredible power to drown their ex-husbands and ruin their lives simply because there are laws that are supposed to protect women from this oppression that give them too much power over men. It happens with races too. Look at affirmative action. If I don't agree with the left it isn't because I am ignorant of their strategies, its because I know them all too well and I see the lies and how the twist the truth constantly, and women and blacks, and gays are often used as useful fools to further their political agenda.

 

[n_i_c_u]

Well, this seems to work for WN.

She's famous to me in the sense I know not to watch her shows. I never actually gave her a chance (I am one of the close minded people here) because when I browsed over her she was doing a political thing. I don't think anyone could pay me tokens to sit thru her shows no matter how great the costumes or bots or backgrounds are--inflammatory (or not) political stuff by someone trying but failing isn't what I want to see on the tv or computer when I'm trying to have fun (imagine watching a performer/comic trying for their first year: I would imagine it is filled with missteps and working on material and unless I know that person on a personal level, I doubt I would be very supportive). Perhaps I am in the minority, but I doubt it. Who knows how long she will last and who knows if she will learn?

I don't know Oliva either, but people seem to like her more. I always scratched my head at that --again just browsing over her avatar during shows and not going to the chat room--but I remember being at a show of a band I loved (Trailer Bride) and talking with a dude that liked the opening band for them and I said I didn't "get it" about the opener and he yelled at me to get the shit out of my ears (in all honesty, I forgot my earplugs and I had to use toilet paper to put in my ears because this 'great' band that I hated was so f'n loud), so maybe I'm missing something in terms of how great people like Oliva are on MFC.

I'm not saying people shouldn't express themselves. I do wonder why WN hasn't done a second police show (apparently 9-11 was good enough to have a second night) following the great token success (?) and controversy and publicity of the original. The Southern Poverty Law Center hasn't addressed her performance (not that they should, but, I would think they would if they thought it was a hate crime).

 

[n_i_c_u]

Not trying to pick on RebeccaT with the quote

 

[Mila_]

 

[Guy]

That idiot tweeted this last year

 

[mynameisbob84]

I can only assume you posted this to highlight how absurd it is that after dozens of black men were so needlessly murdered by police, a police officer is now surprised that the murder of police officers doesn't elicit the same public outrage. Because that would be crazy, wouldn't it? That would assume that the police aren't paid to protect and serve the very people they profile, harass, and publicly execute. That would assume that a civilian should be held to the same moral standards as an officer of the law. That would ignore the fact that these police murders are a response to something that has been happening for far too long with nothing done to stop it.

Nothing could ever justify what certain members of BLM are doing. No sane person could excuse what happened to those police officers. But to ignore the context of those murders or use them to undercut or undermine the reasons that a movement such as BLM exists in the first place, would be ludicrous.

 

[Rivka Rey Scott]

I am familiar with that concept of racism, with critical theory, and everything else. I just don't buy into that worldview. Everyone has a quota of power so anyone can be racist. You have power over the people around you. Everyone does regardless of their race. You can mistreat someone and make them feel bad, that is power. Sounds innocuous but it isn't. You can key someone's car even if he is more powerful than you and you just made him waste time and money fixing it. You can climb to the top of a building and snipe cops. That is power as well. Whomever believes there are people who are absolute victims and therefore can never wrong others is fooling himself. Blacks can be racist against whites, and whites against blacks, and any other combination you can think of. Even systems themselves can be oppressive towards one race or another, regardless to who is in power. You see it in sex relations too. Women might not be *seen* as the sex in power, but even if it was true that the system "favors men", women have incredible power to drown their ex-husbands and ruin their lives simply because there are laws that are supposed to protect women from this oppression that give them too much power over men. It happens with races too. Look at affirmative action. If I don't agree with the left it isn't because I am ignorant of their strategies, its because I know them all too well and I see the lies and how the twist the truth constantly, and women and blacks, and gays are often used as useful fools to further their political agenda.

This is embarrassing to read.

This comment proves that you really don’t understand the “prejudice + power” definition at all, which refers to racism on a systematic level. Every example you listed is individual. Keying someone’s car isn’t “power” lmao.

“Power” refers to the fact that whites are a majority in every organization with authority in the US—the government, police force, military, educational institutions, company management, health organizations, courts—and having that majority means being able to enforce an oppressive will upon people of color. The school-to-prison pipe line is an example of this, as are the semi-recent voter ID laws and reduction of polling places that disproportionately affect black and latinx people, discriminating hiring practices, etc. A prejudice action backed by “power” affects an entire class of people, not just one person. And even if every individual white person doesn't find themselves in a position of authority, they will ultimately benefit from the fact that people who share their race dominate those positions. Making it harder for people of color to vote means that white peoples' votes will hold more sway, passing up a black person's resume because their name sounds "stereotypically black" (or some other reason that gives away their race) means that the chances of getting the job for the other [white] candidates goes up, etc.

And the reason why affirmative action exists is because the lack of funding for inner city schools along with the downward cycle of poverty makes it a lot harder for kids affected by those issues—which are almost entirely black and latinx—to get into college. It’s not giving them an advantage; it’s leveling out an unfair playing field. And by the way, most colleges don’t just consider race as a factor; they also consider economic status and other characteristics that may have limited their high school opportunities. Who’s more likely to afford an SAT tutor, money for several outside extracurriculars (which colleges demand nowadays), and a college application counselor? The poor kid who goes to an inter city school (and is most likely black or latinx due to the cycle of poverty) that’s falling apart and and has mediocre class offerings and outside opportunities, or the upper-middle class suburb student (statistically most likely white) who’s school offers dozens of honors and college prep courses along with stellar extracurricular options?

 

[Mila_]

I can only assume you posted this to highlight how absurd it is that after dozens of black men were so needlessly murdered by police, a police officer is now surprised that the murder of police officers doesn't elicit the same public outrage. Because that would be crazy, wouldn't it? That would assume that the police aren't paid to protect and serve the very people they profile, harass, and publicly execute. That would assume that a civilian should be held to the same moral standards as an officer of the law. That would ignore the fact that these police murders are a response to something that has been happening for far too long with nothing done to stop it.

Nothing could ever justify what certain members of BLM are doing. No sane person could excuse what happened to those police officers. But to ignore the context of those murders or use them to undercut or undermine the reasons that a movement such as BLM exists in the first place, would be ludicrous.

Is there a problem with police brutality on the US? maybe. But it isn't targeted towards blacks exclusively or even especially.

The videos are horrific but the facts clearly prove that you are being lied to by BLM and the media. Of all the people killed by police in 2016 only 24% were black. And while it is true that black people constitute 13% of the US population, they do commit about half of violent crimes like homicides. In 2016 almost double the number of white men have been killed by police officers.Out of these people shot by police, the number of black men who were shot while unarmed was only 3%. Only 13 people. If there was a nationwide epidemic of racist white cops shooting black people that number would be much higher. Because the percentage of unarmed white people who were shot by cops this year is exactly the same: 3% So cops are shooting unarmed white and black men at the exact same rate. There is no racial disparity.

BLM is founded on a lie. And most people believe that lie because when a police officer kills a white man it doesn't get media attention. It is only when they kill a black man that the media gives air time to it simply because it furthers their propaganda and their political agenda. Black Lives Matter is doing the real issue a disservice by presenting it like it is a problem that affects blacks exclusively. If they truly cared about what is going on they would include whites and every other ethnicity into the movement because there is absolutely no racial disparity on the data.

You can check the facts yourself, this is the source I used: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...

In the words of Ann Coulter: Pro Tip: To avoid being arrested or shot by the police, do not violently attack them, scream expletives at them, throw bottles and rocks at them, or try to grab their guns.

 

[Osmia]

....This definition makes it so that people in power cannot be the victims of racism and those persons without power cannot be racist. Hence people on social media repeatedly stating that 'Black people can't be racist', 'White people don't experience racism', ect. I didn't understand why people would say those things until I realized they were defining the word differently than I was. It all makes more sense now.

I remember years ago when the Palestinian uprising against Israel was in full force, wondering why the Palestinians didn't seem to be held (by the Western news media and governing elites) to the same moral standards of civilized behavior as the Israelis.

I hasten to add that I'm not interested in debating the substance of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Back then, I was younger, more liberal, and a bit more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than I am now. I just want to find a convincing explanation for what I perceived at the time to be a blatant moral double standard.

In any case, the only explanation that made sense to me back then was that the Palestinians were generally seen as an oppressed group with almost no power to influence their status in the world except through terrorism. The response from the rest of the world seemed to boil down to the unspoken notion that the oppressed Palestinians were not moral agents, and were therefore not to be held fully morally responsible for their actions. Of course, whatever you think of the Palestinian cause, you have to admit that such an attitude is incredibly patronizing. And it has the effect of perpetuating the oppression, because the oppressed group is in effect regarded as uncivilized or incompletely human. Therefore, we shouldn't expect too much of them.

To the extent that similar dynamics are at work in some parts of the BLM movement, maybe the response from the media/ruling elite is, again, to dehumanize them with low expectations (though they would certainly not characterize it that way). This process of dehumanization is most likely not consciously intended, and is instead considered to be an expression of cultural tolerance.

Hopefully this post doesn't cause offense. I feel like I was walking through a minefield of hot button issues.

 

[Guy]

Is there a problem with police brutality on the US? maybe. But it isn't targeted towards blacks exclusively or even especially.

The videos are horrific but the facts clearly prove that you are being lied to by BLM and the media. Of all the people killed by police in 2016 only 24% were black. And while it is true that black people constitute 13% of the US population, they do commit about half of violent crimes like homicides. In 2016 almost double the number of white men have been killed by police officers.Out of these people shot by police, the number of black men who were shot while unarmed was only 3%. Only 13 people. If there was a nationwide epidemic of racist white cops shooting black people that number would be much higher. Because the percentage of unarmed white people who were shot by cops this year is exactly the same: 3% So cops are shooting unarmed white and black men at the exact same rate. There is no racial disparity.

BLM is founded on a lie. And most people believe that lie because when a police officer kills a white man it doesn't get media attention. It is only when they kill a black man that the media gives air time to it simply because it furthers their propaganda and their political agenda. Black Lives Matter is doing the real issue a disservice by presenting it like it is a problem that affects blacks exclusively. If they truly cared about what is going on they would include whites and every other ethnicity into the movement because there is absolutely no racial disparity on the data.

You can check the facts yourself, this is the source I used: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...

In the words of Ann Coulter: Pro Tip: To avoid being arrested or shot by the police, do not violently attack them, scream expletives at them, throw bottles and rocks at them, or try to grab their guns.

African Americans are being shot by cops at a higher rate than whites http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297

 

[Mila_]

African Americans are being shot by cops at a higher rate http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297

I can't find the part of the article you are referring to. Would you mind quoting the data so I can see it?

Either way, black men commit almost 50% of all violent crimes which makes them more likely to have confrontations with the police:



When you eliminate that factor of the equation by choosing only the innocent (unarmed people killed by cops) there is no racial disparity. If this was the product of targeted racism like BLM poses, the rate would be much higher.

 

[Nordling]

Oy. Posting polls and tables are probably the worst way to show something....so often, they're skewed by the source site.

 

[yummybrownfox]

But we shouldn't defend BLM, their founders, or their agenda because it is an inherently racist movement with a violent underbelly that is looking to create racial hatred and divides among people.

Edit: what exactly do you guys disagree with? All I stated here are facts. Do you disagree with reality?

No, you didn't state facts. You stated an opinion. I disagree with people who bash BLM and act like they're all monsters who hate White people. You do know that there are non-Black people who participate in BLM events and protests, right? And I've been seeing more and more White people getting on social media (and I'm not just talking about celebrities either) trying to explain BLM to people such as yourself. But it's like talking to a wall.

Maybe I should bash all of the Donald Trump supporters who have Confederate flags posted all over their social media. Lol.

Just the other day I saw a guy - in reference to the murders of Philando and Alto - post a meme of a dead Black boy, and he commented "Trayvon Martin wouldn't stand for this." That shit ain't funny. People are all broken up over the death of those police officers (and - don't get me wrong - that is very sad indeed), but are making jokes and saying disgusting things about the Black men who were murdered.

You must think I'm a racist then, since I've posted this...

 

[Ms_Diane]

Maybe a thread dedicated to the Black Lives Matter movement would useful.

Also, I really can't express how much this issue is really about history and context rather than crime rates. I think that is barking up the wrong tree. I recommend reading about anit-oppression, intersectionality and what it means to be an ally and why being an ally is even a thing. This might shed light on the BLM movement if you find yourself bringing up the issue and then talking about how black people can be racist too.

Last week I watched/listened to two really interesting broadcasts where ex-cops were interviewed.

The CBC aired this interview with a man who was a police officer for 30 years in San Diego. You can listen to it here:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...-about-race-and-policing-in-the-u-s-1.3676727
Here is an interview with a former Seattle Police Chief talking about the history of racism in policing and how policing has changed over the years. http://www.democracynow.org/2016/7/14/ex_seattle_police_chief_condemns_systemic

 

[AwesomeKate]

I have also looked at the statistics. You're correct that they really don't show disparity in police shootings, but there are other aspects of the justice system which do treat black people much more harshly than they treats whites. Like capital punishment rates, and mandatory minimum sentencing. This knowledge can either make you angry at BLM and similar civil rights group for pushing a false narrative or you can empathize with their position in the U.S. and understand that they feel (correctly) that they aren't treated the same in the eyes of the law. They are trying to rally support from each other to make change. The videos of white police officers shooting black people may not be representative of the actual systemic issue, but they are emotional enough to get people thinking, relating, and researching. They get the attention that posting links to statistical analysis surveys doesn't. And with that attention, black people can have a platform to have the injustices against them heard.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/

 

[yummybrownfox]

Maybe a thread dedicated to the Black Lives Matter would useful.

Yeah, this thread has really gotten derailed, hasn't it? SMH. We (or 'they' rather, because I'm done talking about her) are supposed to be talking about that WN chick...

 

[LailaBaise]

and it absolutely isn't just America's problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...utional-racism-claims-have-some-justification

 

[n_i_c_u]

are supposed to be talking about that WN chick...

Sorrry, I tried to talk about chicks called WN.

 

[Ms_Diane]

and it absolutely isn't just America's problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...utional-racism-claims-have-some-justification

Totally agree. There are BLM groups in Vancouver and Toronto, and similar groups in Montreal. There are also major problems with how the police treat aboriginal people in Canada - this is actually a total understatement. There is a shit ton of racism towards aboriginal people in Canada. I bring this up just to say that there is a lot of systemic racism in Canada that is regularly in the news here because of the activism of groups like BLM.

 

[AmberCutie]

Maybe a thread dedicated to the Black Lives Matter movement would useful.

Yes, absolutely. This topic has derailed and the original subject matter has run its course.

If someone would please start a BLM thread with appropriate opening statements/questions/etc. in the Random Chat section, I will link to it here and lock this one.

 

[JoleneBrody]

One of the biggest problems I find with people arguing against the presence of racism in America is that it's been a very very short amount of time since segregation was abolished. If my ass kicking surfer mom currently off volunteering for the IDF (she's young enough to still beat any of you in an arm wrassle) is also old enough to remember these things happening live... And to have my ex-stepdad nearly break off the wedding when he found out she had dated multiple black men. It's socially impossible for racism to not be very deep rooted in many people still, based simply on historical data of social studies through the centuries. We have too many people raised to be racist when it was socially acceptable to be still, pre retirement age... Living, kicking and influencing others on a wide scale. Until that generation passes any actual major leap forward will be very hard to accomplish.

But all police have to do is start holding their OATH above their fraternity, admit something is broken and take steps to fix it.

Like Las Vegas did successfully. If Las Vegas reduced shootings by 40% after instating new training on racial profiling... Isn't that pretty sold proof their was a problem? If a police department who's strong enough to finally admit it's says so themselves, is that not enough? I really wonder.

I'm also just so proud of my city even if I hate it here. This American Life did an AMAZING two part episode from both the side of the protestors and the side of the police that covered the Las Vegas reform process in detail.
It's a terrible good two parter worth listening to, no matter your stance.... Because they really do cover both sides pretty damn well IMO

Edit! Oops I'm so sorry amber I was typing ahhhh!

 

[Ms_Diane]

Yes, absolutely. This topic has derailed and the original subject matter has run its course.

If someone would please start a BLM thread with appropriate opening statements/questions/etc. in the Random Chat section, I will link to it here and lock this one.

Ok I made a thread for BLM and related discussion. It's my first time creating a thread so I hope I did it right.

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/threads/the-black-lives-matters-thread.24977/