On whales; their importance and associated matters

[Lucid1]

While the comparison to free to play games is interesting, it is not an exact analogy because in a F2P game the person who pays gets a different - and more valuable - experience than the person who plays for free. Unfortunately, in a public webcam room, the "freeloaders" are getting exactly the same value as the tippers once a goal is reached for a public show. At many levels this is simply not fair, to either those who tipped or to the performer.

It is also worth pointing out, as I did in this thread, that some sites like CB are making advertising revenue from "freeloaders" and then not sharing that with the performer. So the website is compensated for freeloaders, whereas the performer is not. Ironically, it is CB that is providing the performer with important tools - like CrazyTicket - to help overcome freeloading, whereas sites like MFC do not appear to get compensated for freeloaders, but MFC also does not give the performer any good tools to create fixed price shows to innovate around this issue.

It's not meant to be an exact analogy, but it does illustrate the issues involved with the "new revenue" schemes of marketing something for free and then relying on a "conversion factor" in the hopes of being profitable. As I said above, the conversion factor in games directly correlates to the effort the developer puts into designing a F2P game that people will want to spend money on. However, on an adult site like MFC the weight of conversion falls solely on the model's shoulders. The more people that a model converts into paying(read:tipping) members, the higher the percentage that a "whale" will be among them.

 

[Smores]

It's not meant to be an exact analogy, but it does illustrate the issues involved with the "new revenue" schemes of marketing something for free and then relying on a "conversion factor" in the hopes of being profitable. As I said above, the conversion factor in games directly correlates to the effort the developer puts into designing a F2P game that people will want to spend money on. However, on an adult site like MFC the weight of conversion falls solely on the model's shoulders. The more people that a model converts into paying(read:tipping) members, the higher the percentage that a "whale" will be among them.

I accept that, and I agree with you that in this "F2P model" the weight is falling on the performer to figure out how to design a good overall business model given the facts of how the sites are run.

Having said this, my observation is that most models are not figuring that out. I feel especially bad for the girls in Eastern Europe who are trapped in studio systems. The webcam site takes 50% of the tip revenue, then the studio takes another 50% of what is left, and most of the time the studio offers next to no help at all to the model to design a business model. Most of these girls seem unable or unwilling to think through how they can redesign their show to improve their outcomes. I see a lot of rooms on MFC with two or three viewers where the model is actually great, but she just cannot put the pieces together to make it grow, let alone grow profitably.

 

[Phoenix4987]

I used to be a bit of a whale. But I felt over time, my presence became expected. Less and less effort by the model and more and more entitlement. Offline contact went impersonal and distant, like a bored girlfriend or a babysitter forced to babysit on a Friday night.

I can't remember the last time I was called by my name. And conversations became shorter and shorter. Skype calls after hours disappeared as well. I felt like I was still paying top dollar for now, much less entertainment while others probably were getting more perks for much less investment.

You can't tell me "Sorry I'm not in mood to talk right now, I'm too stressed bla bla" and then the very next day when you go to work to be suddenly interested in talking to me. Sorry, but blowing me off and then expecting tip-bombs isn't really my idea of self-respect.

I know this sounds incredibly bitchy, but just wanted to highlight how you lose a good customer. I didn't really mention this to her because it seems kind of I don't know...whiny? I just felt like she still has this sour opinion of me and it feels degrading to myself to carry on unless she makes some changes.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

I used to be a bit of a whale. But I felt over time, my presence became expected. Less and less effort by the model and more and more entitlement. Offline contact went impersonal and distant, like a bored girlfriend or a babysitter forced to babysit on a Friday night.

I can't remember the last time I was called by my name. And conversations became shorter and shorter. Skype calls after hours disappeared as well. I felt like I was still paying top dollar for now, much less entertainment while others probably were getting more perks for much less investment.

You can't tell me "Sorry I'm not in mood to talk right now, I'm too stressed bla bla" and then the very next day when you go to work to be suddenly interested in talking to me. Sorry, but blowing me off and then expecting tip-bombs isn't really my idea of self-respect.

I know this sounds incredibly bitchy, but just wanted to highlight how you lose a good customer. I didn't really mention this to her because it seems kind of I don't know...whiny? I just felt like she still has this sour opinion of me and it feels degrading to myself to carry on unless she makes some changes.

There's a thread about dating a cam girl, in which a few of us commented on this very thing. Here's my post:

https://www.ambercutie.com/forums/t...d-i-need-some-advice.24142/page-4#post-859325

Many use it as strictly revenue generation to tug at your emotions, others are sincere. Personally, I say take everything with a grain of salt. If they really are sincer, they'll stick around. If not, money kept in your wallet, or shifted to the next model you go to.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

But, it makes me wonder... Granted the term "whale" can vary based upon the general room average spending. So, what do people consider "whales" to be in terms of tipping?

 

[AudriTwo]

It's the new business model of revenue generation, just like in "free-to-play" games. If a site has free registration and no "requirement" to tip, then why do people even use the term "freeloader"? People download and play free-to-play games without ever spending a penny on any given game, but in any given free-to-play game, the other players don't have a clue who supports the developers, and who does not. But, the game developers sure do know. Can you imagine what would happen if a game developer "outed" players for being "freeloaders" to other players? At the end of the day, all the game developer can do is hope that the "conversion ratio" of free players to "paying players" is enough to keep the game afloat. In F2P games, that conversion factor is statistically between 3-5 percent, and of that 3-5 percent, less than .1 percent are whales, but the important thing here is that the whales help keep the developer afloat.

It's no different with adult sites who employ free registration. They are counting on the fact that a percentage of users will convert from free users to paying members, and a certain percentage of those converted members will be considered "whales". I don't know the conversion stats on adult sites, but it has to be good enough for sites like MFC and CB to stay afloat for as long as they have. I guess it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I hear someone use the term "freeloader" when talking about users on sites that employ this type of business model. But, I think most successful models on these sites have figured out it's up to them to build a following of regulars. Most of them know, or should know, that the site is just the venue.

But we aren't games. We are humans providing a very personal intimate service. Freeloaders who sit silently and never tip, I don't mind. They don't bug me. It's the beggars, ones who openly mooch off other paying customers, and the people who try to pull one over you. If you aren't putting any effort like tip wise, you can't expect a model to fulfil your shows.

This was a terrible example. You are comparing apples to grapes.

 

[Lucid1]

But we aren't games. We are humans providing a very personal intimate service. Freeloaders who sit silently and never tip, I don't mind. They don't bug me. It's the beggars, ones who openly mooch off other paying customers, and the people who try to pull one over you. If you aren't putting any effort like tip wise, you can't expect a model to fulfil your shows.

This was a terrible example. You are comparing apples to grapes.

My comparison isn't about what the non-paying members do or don't do while in your room, it's about how the free-to-play marketing schemes affect the fact that a far greater percentage of those types of users will always be in anyone's room. If 10,000 people are marketed to with the promise of "free porn", and all 10,000 of them join and become basic members, with no requirement to tip, what can a model's expectations be, realistically, in a scenario where single digit percentages define the number of users who will ever pay?

I agree with others who have posted that sites like this are woefully inadequate with the tools they provide models to deal with this, and this causes a model to spend an inordinate amount of time being concerned with it instead of having the tools needed to convert a far larger share into paying members.

 

[Emberblaze]

*see's herself and all the other models on this site being compared to cheap video games*

*backs away slowly before she replies with something rude*

For real guys we are human beings and that analogy is awful.

Gross.

 

[Lorelei]

While the comparison to free to play games is interesting, it is not an exact analogy because in a F2P game the person who pays gets a different - and more valuable - experience than the person who plays for free. Unfortunately, in a public webcam room, the "freeloaders" are getting exactly the same value as the tippers once a goal is reached for a public show. At many levels this is simply not fair, to either those who tipped or to the performer.

It is also worth pointing out, as I did in this thread, that some sites like CB are making advertising revenue from "freeloaders" and then not sharing that with the performer. So the website is compensated for freeloaders, whereas the performer is not. Ironically, it is CB that is providing the performer with important tools - like CrazyTicket - to help overcome freeloading, whereas sites like MFC do not appear to get compensated for freeloaders, but MFC also does not give the performer any good tools to create fixed price shows to innovate around this issue.

I can't begin to say how misguided this is. I have a personal relationship with the vast majority of my tippers. Some have been with me for a few months, some for nearly four years. The value they derive from my chatroom and shows is far greater than the value that someone sticking their head in for 10 minutes will ever get. Sure, my ass is fantastic and all, but there is zero emotional (platonic) intimacy / knowledge of inside jokes / community friendship and energy for someone lurking in the shadows or someone who has never thrown in and/or gotten to know me. The idea that freeloaders are getting the same "value" as tippers is just ludicrous.

Of course if by "value" you mean "vagina," well, that's a whole other can of worms.

 

[Miss_Lollipop]

Of course if by "value" you mean "vagina," well, that's a whole other can of worms.

.... *mic drop*

 

[Smores]

I can't begin to say how misguided this is. I have a personal relationship with the vast majority of my tippers. Some have been with me for a few months, some for nearly four years. The value they derive from my chatroom and shows is far greater than the value that someone sticking their head in for 10 minutes will ever get. Sure, my ass is fantastic and all, but there is zero emotional (platonic) intimacy / knowledge of inside jokes / community friendship and energy for someone lurking in the shadows or someone who has never thrown in and/or gotten to know me. The idea that freeloaders are getting the same "value" as tippers is just ludicrous.

Of course if by "value" you mean "vagina," well, that's a whole other can of worms.

I agree with your points and I think we are talking about different aspects of this. The original proposal was that a public free webcam show is like a free to play game. I am making the point that in a F2P game you get a different visual and auditory experience completely based on whether you pay or not. In a public webcam show, the video feed going to the freeloader is more or less identical to the video feed going to the tipper.

In the case of your shows, there might be private chats or other exchanges that represent "value-add" for the tippers, and that is great, and nothing I am saying precludes that. For my personal sense of fairness, I would say that is not enough differentiation. Really my desire here is that people who pay nothing NOT get the same video feed that people who do pay something receive. I understand your personal sense of fairness may be in a different place.

 

[Lelo1]

there is a huge number of viewers who simply never pay a penny and then leech off of the generosity of those who do tip.

If you look at it that way. It's a lost battle.

bringing the hustle to my cam room, focussing on converting new members to regulars etc.. it took some serious time.

@Miss_Lollipop knows what's up, Sells, Sells, Sells.

@AmberCutie probable has converted more basics then anway one at this point. XD

 

[Yavin4MFC]

One model's whale is another model's "come back when you have real tokens". I've felt the pressure of being the only person who could easily clear a countdown in a room. I also remember getting laughed out a room by the model and her members when my first ever MFC tip was several 0s below her regular tips. It's all relative.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I agree with your points and I think we are talking about different aspects of this. The original proposal was that a public free webcam show is like a free to play game. I am making the point that in a F2P game you get a different visual and auditory experience completely based on whether you pay or not. In a public webcam show, the video feed going to the freeloader is more or less identical to the video feed going to the tipper.

In the case of your shows, there might be private chats or other exchanges that represent "value-add" for the tippers, and that is great, and nothing I am saying precludes that. For my personal sense of fairness, I would say that is not enough differentiation. Really my desire here is that people who pay nothing NOT get the same video feed that people who do pay something receive. I understand your personal sense of fairness may be in a different place.

Ladies, we aren't comparing camgirls to video games. The comparison is being made between the business model of F2P games and public sites like CB and MFC. I think the analogy is a good one.
I think what happened to Zynga (publisher of Farmville, word with friends and a zillion other games) is a cautionary tail. The company was rising star when in went public in 2011. Zynga always focused on making it's games addictive and getting people to buy virtual stuff, rather than making their games fun. But they also increasingly focused on extracting as much as possible money from whales, rather than converting free users to premium users. Shortly after Zynga went public in their whales started getting bored with their games (or went broke). Zynga daily active users started dropping and their revenue crater along with it and now the company is struggling to keep the doors open.

Now there are certainly differences between F2P games and CB and MFC. But if anything it seems that conversion rates from free to play appear even lower on a site like CB, than on Facebook or Mobile F2P game. This may be ok for CB because CB traffic is growing while MFC traffic is at best flat.

It seems me there are several distinct experiences with CB/MFC

1. Interacting with pretty girls.
2. Watching live sex shows
3. Getting content. videos, pictures, panties etc.
4. Private interaction/special attention by models.

I've listed them in this order cause that what logically you expect to pay more for watching a live sex show than talking to a girl, and private interaction with a model would be the most expensive. As recently as five years ago public cumshows weren't technically allowed on MFC. The expectation is that you'd go to group to watch the actual cumshow. Now on MFC/CB you can watch sex shows for free, and the experience is the same between a person who has spent $0 dollars and somebody who has spent $100,000. As far as interacting with models isn't even a lot of difference between the $20 premium and $100K dude (other than 100K dudes will certainly get his jokes laughed at). There are so few talkers in most rooms on MFC now that most models will happily interact with $20 premium (and many even unmute basics) as long as the person isn't being an asshole.

As far as content goes it is not hard to find it on tube sites or other sites. It is a significant source of income for models, and is often good value to the member.
As result, I think an increasing percentage of the income on MFC, is guys tipping just because; to help finish a countdown, help them reach their rank goal, maintain camscore etc, and/or cause they are infatuated with a model. Basically, relying on the altruistic nature of a small number of people.

I fear the narrowing of the customer base (i.e. depending on whales) is a scary both for individual models as well as MFC as a whole. There seems to be very little effort made by MFC to convince freeloaders to pay for anything. or the $20 premium to spend more.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

Really my desire here is that people who pay nothing NOT get the same video feed that people who do pay something receive. I understand your personal sense of fairness may be in a different place.

Since you want to compare webcams to F2P games. Perhaps a better comparison to what I quoted above would be net neutrality when it comes to ISP's downgrading net performance because you aren't buying their streaming media from them?

May still be a bad comparison...


Either way, having people linger in open cam rooms whom don't tip is part of the equation. I don't mind tipping as I can, whether I'm one model's whale. Or, another's plankton.

 

[AmberCutie]

I always talk about the "law of numbers". The "free" model at MFC and other free chat cam sites works off of it. This is why they like the public shows that draw in lookyloos. This is why there aren't password shows on MFC... (IMO)

I can't disagree with comparing the business model of a f2p game with micro-transactions. It's a legit comparison. There ARE a ton of people who play the games for free never buying into the micro-transactions or just dredging through the ads. The developers count on a certain percentage of people paying in order to keep the game/site/etc profitable. But don't be silly and think that the developers, in conversations among themselves and other peers in the business, don't call the non-payers freeloaders or something similar to that.

 

[AriRossi]

What the webcam sites should be doing about that problem is creating lots of additional features to let models control who gets to view things for free. Maybe limit the resolution seen by basic/grey users? Maybe limit the amount of time they can spend in a room before a mandatory toll charge appears (it can be ultra small).

I couldn't agree agree more with this idea that grey users should have limited access to either time in room or quality of video. It's kind of like Why buy the cow, when you can get this milk for free? . It's not very often that a grey user is going to even sign up to atleast keep the rooms chat flowing. I wonder why there isnt something like this in place yet.

 

[AmberCutie]

I wonder why there isnt something like this in place yet.

Because it defeats the point of the business model. (I just pointed out this exact thing in the post right above ya.)

 

[AriRossi]

Because it defeats the point of the business model. (I just pointed out this exact thing in the post right above ya.)

I'm sorry I definitely should have read a little further before getting to excited to respond.

 

[Smores]

Because it defeats the point of the business model. (I just pointed out this exact thing in the post right above ya.)

I think this is just lazy marketing. You can give away quite a lot "for free" without giving away EVERYTHING for free. For example:

* Free users might get a 320 pixel video feed, whereas those paying at least 10 tokens an hour get up to 720 pixel

* Free users might only get 10 minutes in the room before they are automatically charged one token every 10 minutes.

* Models might convert public goal shows over to a prepaid ticket show model, where anyone who contributed at least 20 tokens in the last hour gets a free ticket into a CrazyTicket show, and the price of additional tickets is set super-low to encourage freeloaders to pay something to see the goal show.

Those are just examples, and there are plenty of other ideas where those came from.

You can use the "freemium" model as your marketing tool. "Freemium" doesn't mean you have to passively lay on the road and be road kill.

 

[AmberCutie]

I think this is just lazy marketing. You can give away quite a lot "for free" without giving away EVERYTHING for free. For example:

* Free users might get a 320 pixel video feed, whereas those paying at least 10 tokens an hour get up to 720 pixel

* Free users might only get 10 minutes in the room before they are automatically charged one token every 10 minutes.

* Models might convert public goal shows over to a prepaid ticket show model, where anyone who contributed at least 20 tokens in the last hour gets a free ticket into a CrazyTicket show, and the price of additional tickets is set super-low to encourage freeloaders to pay something to see the goal show.

Those are just examples, and there are plenty of other ideas where those came from.

You can use the "freemium" model as your marketing tool. "Freemium" doesn't mean you have to passively lay on the road and be road kill.

MFC doesn't have to change a thing, they've been successful at this for years and years now.

If models want to change they way that *they* operate their room in order to not "give the milk for free" they can if they like. Private and group shows exist for this reason. But the truth is many do NOT take that route, because the public game is more profitable.

...annnnd we're back at the law of numbers, lol.

 

[Smores]

MFC doesn't have to change a thing, they've been successful at this for years and years now.

If models want to change they way that *they* operate their room in order to not "give the milk for free" they can if they like. Private and group shows exist for this reason. But the truth is many do NOT take that route, because the public game is more profitable.

...annnnd we're back at the law of numbers, lol.

MFC does not have to change, but since MFC does not make money from advertising anything they do that increases tokens is going to benefit their bottom line. You are implying that they do not believe any other system will improve their bottom line. I don't have the facts.

I totally agree with your point that the model controls her destiny. That's a point I try to make with girls in MFC who have three users in their room, and usually they do not listen.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

MFC doesn't have to change a thing, they've been successful at this for years and years now.

If models want to change they way that *they* operate their room in order to not "give the milk for free" they can if they like. Private and group shows exist for this reason. But the truth is many do NOT take that route, because the public game is more profitable.

...annnnd we're back at the law of numbers, lol.

In business (especially a technology business which porn is) there is A word to describe companies that don't change. DYING and eventually dead.

MFC, changed from not allowing public cumshows like SM and LiveJasmin etc. to basically encouraging them. It worked out for them and maybe the don't need to make any change in that respect. Personally, I think the reason MFC has been successful has more to do with the Miss MFC competition than public cumshows. But the emphasis on Miss MFC and allowing public cumshows happened at about the same time so it's really hard to know for sure

Despite all of its ways CB seems to shoot itself in the foot, it seems to be gaining a lot of traffic, so I don't think MFC can sit back on their laurels.

To be fair MFC, has made more improvements in the last year or so than previous years.

 

[AmberCutie]

I totally agree with your point that the model controls her destiny. That's a point I try to make with girls in MFC who have three users in their room, and usually they do not listen.

A fair amount of girls think it's easier to try to implore the site they work on to change their business model instead of changing how they run their own room. I've seen it every few months... we'll have a thread of tweets girls pledging their request to MFC to completely redo how they run the site.

 

[AriRossi]

we'll have a thread of tweets girls pledging their request to MFC to completely redo how they run the site.

You know I totally feel like a dufus for what I said earlier; especially when I read this. I knew my intent wasn't the same but it almost sounds rude and ignorant to be like " why isn't this a certain way yet". We already get so much freedom that it seems silly to have a thought process like I presented. Thank you for enlightening me.

 

[DJ_Pioneer]

MFC doesn't have to change a thing, they've been successful at this for years and years now.

If models want to change they way that *they* operate their room in order to not "give the milk for free" they can if they like. Private and group shows exist for this reason. But the truth is many do NOT take that route, because the public game is more profitable.

...annnnd we're back at the law of numbers, lol.

MFC don't have to change things but they should at least update the site so it doesn't looks like it is over 10 years old since that might drive away potential customers. I found MFC through this forum when I was looking for lighting tips for my webcam to improve my Twitch streaming. If I had found MFC some other way I probably never would have made an account on the site because of the way it looks. I had never been to a cam site before, because of the interesting discussions here and my own curiosity I made an account on MFC and bought my first 900 tokens to check out what this camming thing was. Because of the release of Cammunity they should really look into having the video feed in a 16:9 format, looking at game play footage in letterbox makes me sad and could potentially drive away tippers from that site. During the year I have been on MFC has done some updates to the site and I hope they continue doing it so new people will find it interesting and become tippers.

 

[opphs]

.... *mic drop*

Yep, that's the heart of it right there

 

[opphs]

I also remember getting laughed out a room by the model and her members when my first ever MFC tip was several 0s below her regular tips. It's all relative.

Whoa, seriously? Yikes

 

[Whyruhere]

Hello all. I can honestly tell you what it's like from a tipper's perspective.

A little background, I'm self employed and I'm new to cam sites and only been logging in for just over a month now. When I was first logging on I was lost in life. Random events made me question my motives as a person and with what I was doing with my life. I felt the end to my passion and dreams becoming a reality. So, I was searching for encouragement and reassurance. I searched random rooms until I eventually found one that met what I've wanted and since then I've routinely giving out 100k worth of tokens on occasion over the past month. I've never would've guessed in a million years I would find something in such an unlikely place. We're all on the internet and I can easily access any sexual fantasy we please, but that's the least of it for me. I can personally log on for a second and have a few words exchanged and I'm good for the night. Talk to me/chat, make me feel welcomed, and come off as genuine and I'm good.

Some might say this is crazy but it really opened my eyes and changed my outlook on the way I currently see myself and my dreams...how do you repay someone who's giving you that? I can honestly say, you can't, because in my mind it will never be enough....100k or 1mil, it won't matter.

First, I'm not wealthy...I make a decent living and live within my means. I don't get up from my computer when done and sit on the front porch with a cigar and scotch as Jarvis cleans up from cooking dinner. I simply do it because of the reason I mentioned along with time being scarce. My time spent online will slowdown tremendously. As users said all ready every good thing come to an end and it's no different for me. I can do what I can in the limited amount of time to repay someone who's giving me, IMO, too much. I enjoy supporting things I like and in good people, so I have no issue in spending that amount of money a month if I can afford it.

Secondly, when I do it, I do feel bad...but I also have anxiety when doing things in front of a public audience. I normally just try and go along with the excitement of the chat room and enjoy myself. In the end I couldn't care less that my name is next to a large tip. If I knew how I would easily split it among her long time supporters or someone that might not have the means to do such a thing. It's much theirs as it is the hers because without a good community behind the broadcaster people can still feel unwelcome and uneasy.

Someone got laughed out of a room because their tip was lower than normal? That's just insane for me to think of.

Smores actually nailed it when he said that they could run off other potential large whales. I feel guilty sometimes for I think it hurts everyone else tipping too. First you have the people who look at it and say to themselves "Well, she doesn't need my money!". Then the people who might hold off for a less active day and try to get on a leader board. Maybe it's all in my head.

The next thing I personally struggle with is...how do you go about tipping out 100k without being annoying to the broadcaster? People log on to enjoy the show and talk to the host, this isn't the "tipper show" with consistent interruptions throughout. I've looked at past tip logs and asked if I was annoying and apologized if it felt so.

Finally, I can say that it's almost a burden to tip that big consistently. I find it extremely difficult and infuriating to deal with customer support on certain sites, to the point where I've almost tossed my hands in the air and said I was done with it all. Also when tipping large amounts, I feel like it's almost expected, maybe not so much from the broadcaster's view but from the community too. I've even gone as far as to make an alt account to remain anonymous and I must say it was extremely freeing. Like the weight and the eyes were no longer on me.

 

[Whyruhere]

MFC don't have to change things but they should at least update the site so it doesn't looks like it is over 10 years old since that might drive away potential customers.

I can confirm with this statement being true. I'll never log back on there again. It's a mess and unpleasant to browse.