#WomenAgainstFeminism

[SexySteph]

I can't even comfortably sunbathe in a bikini in my own back yard without fear that if someone rapes me I fall blamed.

I don't know where you live but is this common? The women around here sunbathe/walk around the neighborhood in bikinis during the summer with zero fear of anything. I don't think any would feel they are to blame because they were in bikinis.

I live in a small town with the houses on about 3 acres max. We also don't have a pool (that I know of) so it'd be pretty weird if I did that. I get weird looks and shamed when I wear a crop top.

ETA: I also don't have a fenced yard. So, idk, I just feel unsafe doing it.

 

[Leon_Omega]

I see it as wearing a seatbelt in my car. I shouldn't have to in an ideal situation where everyone around me knows and understands the rules of the road and is alert enough to drive. I wear it because of the possible consequences of my situation being less than ideal.

I guess if men were told to wear the metaphorical seatbelt too, I'd take less of an issue with it, if that makes sense?

They should be. I never tried to say or imply that personal safety measures were to be gender-specific.

I only meant to say that I feel a safety net is just a sensible thing to have, regardless of the need for it.

 

[JickyJuly]

To be fair ladies, it doesn't matter what we're wearing if we're victimized. We're sex workers. If you're beaten/raped/robbed you could be wearing 30 sweaters and a snowsuit, but our job makes us look culpable. Check the headlines for Christy Mack. She's a young woman and a victim of some hideous domestic violence and in the news she's watered down to "pornstar girlfriend". Wear your bikinis and crop tops with pride! We're already in the hell handbasket of public opinion.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I get weird looks and shamed when I wear a crop top.

Town sounds awful, no offence. Mine kinda sucks too but the women around here aren't afraid to walk around in bikinis at least.

 

[Violet October]

I get weird looks and shamed when I wear a crop top.

Town sounds awful, no offence. Mine kinda sucks too but the women around here aren't afraid to walk around in bikinis at least.

Some places definitely are worse than others.

 

[SexySteph]

I get weird looks and shamed when I wear a crop top.

Town sounds awful, no offence. Mine kinda sucks too but the women around here aren't afraid to walk around in bikinis at least.

It's the midwest. I suffer through for cheap housing. lol

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Weird, the women I know from the midwest wouldn't be scared or feel blamed if they were to sunbathe in a bikini. Probably something that varies for everyone I guess. Always interesting to see how different people see and feel about a certain topic.

 

[LaughingLux]

Aimed at no one in particular, just my reaction to the thread/topic in general.

I'm disappointed when I read:
-Some people's opinions and assumptions when they are almost completely built around stereotypes.
-HUGE generalizations about a certain aspect of a topic, still drenched in stereotypes.
-People making an argument on their singular experience about a situation or topic while basically saying other women's experiences 'don't count' because it's not the same for them personally.

I honestly could not give less of a shit if someone want to relate as a feminist or not.

My one issue in this and usually all things is the apparent ridiculous and undying need to tell people how to live their lives and the attempt to devalue and undermine their experiences, especially when it challenges the in place power structures. If you don't see the struggles and dangers women live with and women of color live with (even worse) then that's fine but please don't go about it by saying you don't believe their personal experience is valid or suggest people are overreacting.

Every time feminism and racism comes up the biggest argument revolves around definitions and takes up more time then the actual issues. Yes definitions change over time and/but apparently just going with academia's definition's isn't a solution for some people. Some people when it comes to this are going with outrageous descriptions of what feminism is. I'm not one for Christianity but I don't bring up the cross burning, funeral picketing racists whenever issues with religion come up.

My Points
-Respect individual experiences without thinking yours trumps another's
-If your opinion is a stereotype...honestly just fucking stop. It's called google (just make sure it's real peer-reviewed research)
-When it comes to definitions I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say academia's definitions should probably be the most widespread. The fact that they aren't is why we have so much misuse and misunderstanding.

 

[LaughingLux]

Weird, the women I know from the midwest wouldn't be scared or feel blamed if they were to sunbathe in a bikini. Probably something that varies for everyone I guess. Always interesting to see how different people see and feel about a certain topic.

Dude you don't know what any woman would feel in that situation because you aren't them. Why are you trying to put down Steph for being worried about her own town and safety and acting like she's overreacting when you have no idea what it's like to be her? Congrats if you know women who would would feel differently. What does that have to do with the personal fear Steph has to go through in her own experiences?

And also, you don't think women would feel to blame if they wore bikinis and were raped? The system is literally built around making them feel blame every step of the way. And just because women are in bikini's in your area doesn't mean they're walking around without a fear of anything.

I get you're trying to throw out your own perspective and all but please don't do so while devaluing someone else's. Just recognize that you can't understand someone else's life sometimes because you're not living it and just accept them at their word.

 

[SexySteph]

Weird, the women I know from the midwest wouldn't be scared or feel blamed if they were to sunbathe in a bikini. Probably something that varies for everyone I guess. Always interesting to see how different people see and feel about a certain topic.

Well, that's awesome for them. They probably have never been sexually assaulted and told they were asking for it. Cuz, trust me, someone tells you that it's your fault you were raped, groped, followed home, whatever, even just once, you second guess everything you do and how it could make those things look like you were "asking for it".

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Dude you don't know what any woman would feel in that situation because you aren't them. Why are you trying to put down Steph for being worried about her own town and safety and acting like she's overreacting when you have no idea what it's like to be her?

What are you talking about?

I get you're trying to throw out your own perspective and all but please don't do so while devaluing someone else's. Just recognize that you can't understand someone else's life sometimes because you're not living it and just accept them at their word.

Not sure how I devalued her experiences so I'm just going to move on.

 

[Violet October]

What are you talking about?

This.

Weird, the women I know from the midwest wouldn't be scared or feel blamed if they were to sunbathe in a bikini.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Not sure how my experiences differing from hers means I'm devaluing hers, nor do I see how it could be a put down. Never said or implied in any way that she is overreacting either. Don't get it and I don't want to argue so I'm just going to go back to reading the thread. Sorry if I offended you SexyStephXs.

 

[Violet October]

Not sure how my experiences differing from hers means I'm devaluing hers, nor do I see how it could be a put down. Never said or implied in any way that she is overreacting either. Don't get it and I don't want to argue so I'm just going to go back to reading the thread. Sorry if I offended you SexyStephXs.

Not trying to be a dick or argue, just trying to show you how your language was problematic. You said "weird", as in calling her experiences weird or different from the norm. AND, those experiences are not yours; you were interpreting experiences of other women. To be honest, you do know *know* what the other women felt. You may have an idea if they've told you something, but you don't know. You do not walk their shoes. You may be right, or you could be wrong. but speaking for others experiences to contrast someone else's very real experience can be incredibly demeaning.

 

[Leon_Omega]

If your opinion is a stereotype...honestly just fucking stop. It's called google (just make sure it's real peer-reviewed research)

Exactly! If your opinion is based on nothing but a stereotype, then you're effectively letting other people do your thinking for you. Historically, that has rarely turned out well.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Not trying to be a dick or argue, just trying to show you how your language was problematic. You said "weird", as in calling her experiences weird or different from the norm.

No, that isn't what the weird meant but whatever, who cares.

 

[Violet October]

Not trying to be a dick or argue, just trying to show you how your language was problematic. You said "weird", as in calling her experiences weird or different from the norm.

No, that isn't what the weird meant but whatever, who cares.

Like I said, not trying to argue. I said your language, not your meanings.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

lol my language was problematic because you took a word the wrong way. What is problematic about me finding my experiences weird?

 

[Violet October]

lol my language was problematic because you took a word the wrong way. What is problematic about me finding my experiences weird?

Definitions of the word weird:
- suggesting something supernatural; uncanny.
- very strange; bizarre.
- induce a sense of disbelief or alienation in someone.


If you didn't mean those, you used the word weird wrong. But you already corrected it and apologized to Steph saying you didn't mean to offend her or demean her experiences.

Just another example of people not being aware of the language they use - which ties into my earlier posts about language being so important to communication, especially in discussions about special interest groups.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

lol my language was problematic because you took a word the wrong way. What is problematic about me finding my experiences weird?

Definitions of the word weird:
- suggesting something supernatural; uncanny.
- very strange; bizarre.
- induce a sense of disbelief or alienation in someone.


If you didn't mean those, you used the word weird wrong. But you already corrected it and apologized to Steph saying you didn't mean to offend her or demean her experiences.

Just another example of people not being aware of the language they use - which ties into my earlier posts about language being so important to communication, especially in discussions about special interest groups.

huh? What are you talking about? I said weird because my experiences seemed very strange compared to hers. For someone preaching about how important communication is you don't really seem to be listening to your own advice.

 

[Violet October]

lol my language was problematic because you took a word the wrong way. What is problematic about me finding my experiences weird?

Definitions of the word weird:
- suggesting something supernatural; uncanny.
- very strange; bizarre.
- induce a sense of disbelief or alienation in someone.


If you didn't mean those, you used the word weird wrong. But you already corrected it and apologized to Steph saying you didn't mean to offend her or demean her experiences.

Just another example of people not being aware of the language they use - which ties into my earlier posts about language being so important to communication, especially in discussions about special interest groups.

huh? What are you talking about? I said weird because my experiences seemed very strange compared to hers. For someone preaching about how important communication is you don't really seem to be listening to your own advice.

Wait, what? You responded to her experience saying "weird" and proceeded to talk about other *women's* experiences compared to hers, not your own experience.

Now I'm legitimately confused.

(I have no problem admitting when I don't understand what someone else is talking about or admitting when I'm wrong when someone actually shows me I am. I've changed a lot of my views lately, especially on feminism and other topics, because I was shown otherwise.)

 

[GracieHart]

Aimed at no one in particular, just my reaction to the thread/topic in general.

I'm disappointed when I read:
-Some people's opinions and assumptions when they are almost completely built around stereotypes.
-HUGE generalizations about a certain aspect of a topic, still drenched in stereotypes.
-People making an argument on their singular experience about a situation or topic while basically saying other women's experiences 'don't count' because it's not the same for them personally.

I honestly could not give less of a shit if someone want to relate as a feminist or not.

My one issue in this and usually all things is the apparent ridiculous and undying need to tell people how to live their lives and the attempt to devalue and undermine their experiences, especially when it challenges the in place power structures. If you don't see the struggles and dangers women live with and women of color live with (even worse) then that's fine but please don't go about it by saying you don't believe their personal experience is valid or suggest people are overreacting.

Every time feminism and racism comes up the biggest argument revolves around definitions and takes up more time then the actual issues. Yes definitions change over time and/but apparently just going with academia's definition's isn't a solution for some people. Some people when it comes to this are going with outrageous descriptions of what feminism is. I'm not one for Christianity but I don't bring up the cross burning, funeral picketing racists whenever issues with religion come up.

My Points
-Respect individual experiences without thinking yours trumps another's
-If your opinion is a stereotype...honestly just fucking stop. It's called google (just make sure it's real peer-reviewed research)
-When it comes to definitions I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say academia's definitions should probably be the most widespread. The fact that they aren't is why we have so much misuse and misunderstanding.

I don't think thanking this post is enough. I have had so much to say on this topic but have kept quiet as I felt I couldnt articulate it the way I wanted to. You've covered most bases and brought it back on point. Thanks

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Wait, what? You responded to her experience saying "weird" and proceeded to talk about other *women's* experiences compared to hers, not your own experience.

Now I'm legitimately confused.

Don't be, I'm a dude. The women I'm around and grew up around, so not my experiences, but what those around me have led me to believe. I have no idea how that other poster took me saying weird and somehow got overreacting, put down, and devaluing. Pretty silly but whatever, don't care about her overreaction or seeing things that aren't there or trying to make me look mean, SexySteph seems to realize it wasn't meant like that so who cares.

 

[Leon_Omega]

I can't even comfortably sunbathe in a bikini in my own back yard without fear that if someone rapes me I fall blamed.

I overlooked this before. It's an exceedingly shitty way to have to live. I feel this really highlights why the struggle for equality is necessary in our society, when there are a disturbing amount of people who can't even be comfortable around the place they call home.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

To be fair ladies, it doesn't matter what we're wearing if we're victimized. We're sex workers. If you're beaten/raped/robbed you could be wearing 30 sweaters and a snowsuit, but our job makes us look culpable. Check the headlines for Christy Mack. She's a young woman and a victim of some hideous domestic violence and in the news she's watered down to "pornstar girlfriend". Wear your bikinis and crop tops with pride! We're already in the hell handbasket of public opinion.

Not sure how I missed this and pretty off topic but fuck War Machine. Dude is beyond scumbag status. Hope they find him soon and make sure to not let him out this time. Such a coward, everything wrong about mma and bodybuilding culture stuffed into one psychotic douchebag.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think the way punk was jumped on pretty much illustrates why men don't feel like feminism includes their best interests. The word weird isn't offensive. If a girl had said it, she wouldn't have been reprimanded. He asked questions. If people have to walk on egg shells to ask questions, they'll eventually just keep walking. Feminism needs men on board. Treating them like they can't understand the problems of women or find a way to relate is counterproductive.

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

I think the way punk was jumped on pretty much illustrates why men don't feel like feminism includes their best interests. The word weird isn't offensive. If a girl had said it, she wouldn't have been reprimanded. He asked questions. If people have to walk on egg shells to ask questions, they'll eventually just keep walking. Feminism needs men on board. Treating them like they can't understand the problems of women or find a way to relate is counterproductive.

Thank you for this. I've been tempted to join in this conversation, but I'll come right out and admit it: I feel intimidated. I feel like no matter how carefully I word something, someone will find something offensive about it or decide I can't possibly have a valid point of view because I'm male.

I believe I'm someone feminists (or perhaps just people in favor of equity) should want on their side. I grew up believing it was obvious that race, gender, religion, and so on should have nothing to do with the opportunities a person is given. I still believe that. I think assaulting someone or pressuring them into something they don't want through fear is unacceptable. Still, I don't necessarily agree with every statement ever made by someome who identifies as "feminist," so yeah, there are things I'd like to question without having a piano dropped on my head.

 

[caireen]

I think the way punk was jumped on pretty much illustrates why men don't feel like feminism includes their best interests. The word weird isn't offensive. If a girl had said it, she wouldn't have been reprimanded. He asked questions. If people have to walk on egg shells to ask questions, they'll eventually just keep walking. Feminism needs men on board. Treating them like they can't understand the problems of women or find a way to relate is counterproductive.

Punk was jumped on but also responded super defensively, calling it "silly" and lots of unnecessary things. We need to be able to point out offensive uses of language in ways that don't make people feel attacked; similarly, people need to take that criticism and say, "Oh, I didn't see it that way. Sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intention".

I believe that an important part of being involved in discussions about social justice issues is being open to other people telling you that your language choices are problematic for them. It isn't something personal, but we should be able to learn and grow from that.

(It is really hard to take though, I know. I remember when once when I was a teenager I commented on something someone said on Myspace (!) about George Bush, "That's retarded". When she told me that she dislikes that language, I argued, throwing out definitions of retarded and arguing that the way I used it wasn't a slur, etc, rather than just apologize and listen)

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Punk was jumped on but also responded super defensively

Naw, not really. Responded pretty calmly but whatever.

calling it "silly" and lots of unnecessary things.

Have no idea what you mean by lots of unnecessary things, I just wanted it to be known that the wild conclusions a poster jumped to weren't accurate. Whatever, probably shouldn't of said anything.

 

[KudosKids]

Aimed at no one in particular, just my reaction to the thread/topic in general.

I'm disappointed when I read:
-Some people's opinions and assumptions when they are almost completely built around stereotypes.
-HUGE generalizations about a certain aspect of a topic, still drenched in stereotypes.
-People making an argument on their singular experience about a situation or topic while basically saying other women's experiences 'don't count' because it's not the same for them personally.

I honestly could not give less of a shit if someone want to relate as a feminist or not.

My one issue in this and usually all things is the apparent ridiculous and undying need to tell people how to live their lives and the attempt to devalue and undermine their experiences, especially when it challenges the in place power structures. If you don't see the struggles and dangers women live with and women of color live with (even worse) then that's fine but please don't go about it by saying you don't believe their personal experience is valid or suggest people are overreacting.

Every time feminism and racism comes up the biggest argument revolves around definitions and takes up more time then the actual issues. Yes definitions change over time and/but apparently just going with academia's definition's isn't a solution for some people. Some people when it comes to this are going with outrageous descriptions of what feminism is. I'm not one for Christianity but I don't bring up the cross burning, funeral picketing racists whenever issues with religion come up.

My Points
-Respect individual experiences without thinking yours trumps another's
-If your opinion is a stereotype...honestly just fucking stop. It's called google (just make sure it's real peer-reviewed research)
-When it comes to definitions I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say academia's definitions should probably be the most widespread. The fact that they aren't is why we have so much misuse and misunderstanding.

You young lady, are extremely bright. And I thank god for people like you. Everything you said was correct. These are touchy subjects, and unfortunately people are going to constantly fight over it. The day we can all just get along and respect everyones opinion, even if you do not agree with it and think it is absolutely crossing the line, is the day we will all find equality. Whether your black, white, man, woman, christian, or buddhist. You should accept everyone, help everyone, love everyone. And then this world will finally know peace.