User perspective: It seems like certain kinds of scammers have perfected the ways to avoid accountability on Chaturbate

[HeadyRaven]

So, I'm not a regular CB user but have been on and off the site for years. In recent months, I've been visiting CB a bit more and checking out some broadcasts and doing some privates, usually couples. I don't know if I'm just in a run of bad luck, but I've had several instances lately of being, well, ripped off. By this I mean, for example, someone saying that a 1500 token tip is required upfront to do something - and then the broadcasters don't do it. (Like, just blatantly). Or in another instance, entering a private and the couple engaging in some crazy delay tactics and other interruptions and saying they will be back in a minute - and eventually coming up with an excuse to end the private without actually having done much of anything. I even had one where a couple goofed around for a few minutes and then said, "Oh, there's a problem; she (female performer) says that sex is painful to her today, so she can't continue." These are almost always situations where some token minimum in involved, so you get hosed for 10 or 15 minutes of tokens no matter what.

I know this topic has come up in the past, and the usual answer has been along the lines of: If you start to have problems in a private session, since it's per minute, just exit the show and not much is lost. While that's true if there's no minimum, you can still lose some tokens on absolutely nothing if the gimmicks and delay tactics are clever enough to keep you waiting a bit. And if there's a minimum, you can lose even more.

And as far as tips go, the answer is always that they are always completely discretionary on CB and so if you tip for something, even if there was an agreement discussed in the chat, the site will always come back and say, "Sorry" and point to the policy.

Okay, I get it. I don't necessarily agree with this business model (which is why I prefer sites with more accountability. But that's obviously a user perspective).

But it seems like Chaturbate in particular has set everything up to benefit them over anyone - whether broadcasters or users. I am constantly seeing models complaining here that CB bans often and sometimes in an arbitrary way or with little evidence. Yet oddly, even with screenshots of chats or other supporting evidence, I can rarely ever get anywhere with CB Customer Support on the types of issues I described above. Their default seems to be to forward the issue to the broadcasters, who of course lie and deny, and that's the end of it.

Meanwhile, the thumbs up/thumbs down system is completely inadequate as a means of warning members. Unless the broadcaster has a huge number of downvotes, it's just not effective. And the feature can be turned off, anyway.

I guess this is more of a "vent" than anything else. What bothers me the most is that with a couple of the incidents I experienced during the last few months, it wasn't only that the scamming was blatant, it's that the broadcasters were totally brazen afterwards. Like, "Well, sorry, that's how it goes. Ha ha. You can take it up with the site. Good luck. Ha ha" Like seriously, they know that they can hose a member out of 1000, maybe 1500 tokens really easily, and while that might not be a lot in a one time deal, if they do if fairly frequently, it could be somewhat profitable. And it's enabled by the site, as they know exactly what the member can't successfully complain about.

I think the answer is that I need to stop visiting Chaturbate! (Or maybe I need to stop trying out Eastern European or Russian broadcasters, which seem to be where I've run into these incidents without exception on CB).

Has CB ever had a real review or rating system like StripChat or many other sites? If the site is going to disavow all responsibility for those kinds of tactics, at least provide some way for users to identify broadcasters that show a pattern. That's my two cents.

 

[cbhours]

The satisfaction score impacts position regardless if they hide it or not. Don't assume your feedback does nothing if a model has enough refund requests they will ban the model. (Actually I'm uncertain if they have changed the policy at all since the satisfaction score impacts position but it's probably the same)

 

[Vixxen81]

I had the best barbeque the other day. Pulled pork, perfectly smoked ribs with garlic bread and mac n cheese. I'm going to be sad when summer is over.

 

[Slapstick]

I had the best barbeque the other day. Pulled pork, perfectly smoked ribs with garlic bread and mac n cheese. I'm going to be sad when summer is over.

Nobody is forcing you to read these threads. Let the poor guy have at least a page or two of discussion before the food talk starts.

I even had one where a couple goofed around for a few minutes and then said, "Oh, there's a problem; she (female performer) says that sex is painful to her today, so she can't continue." These are almost always situations where some token minimum in involved, so you get hosed for 10 or 15 minutes of tokens no matter what.

If they claim to have some situation that prevents them from performing ask them to end the show. The token minimum does not apply if the performer ends the show. If they refuse take screenshots and report them. You may or may not get a refund, but CB will take note of repeated complaints about a performer.

And as far as tips go, the answer is always that they are always completely discretionary on CB and so if you tip for something, even if there was an agreement discussed in the chat, the site will always come back and say, "Sorry" and point to the policy.

This is my biggest pet peeve with Chaturbate. Their TOS is a clear violation of California's [1] consumer protection laws against false advertising. Depending on the amount, and If I was in California, I would definitely be taking them to small claims court. CB provides an API to enable tip menus, they provide an "app store" for the distribution of tip menu apps, and they make zero effort to restrict the use of tip menu apps. They clearly support and encourage the use of tip menus. Users then have a "reasonable expectation of a transaction"; that if they tip for an item they will a) get that item, b) get another agreed upon item of equal or greater value, or c) get a refund. Imagine walking into a restaurant and paying the menu price for a burger only to be told, "We don't feel like making burgers today. Sucks to be you." No one here would put up with that nonsense.

1. CB is registered and does business in California.

 

[Marceline]

Imagine walking into a restaurant and paying the menu price for a burger only to be told, "We don't feel like making burgers today. Sucks to be you." No one here would put up with that nonsense.

While I don’t agree at all with models doing the bait and switch, and outright scamming members, purchasing sexual services is not the same as purchasing a burger.

The section of the TOS that states tokens are gifts is there for a reason. If a site were to say “if a member tips for something, you have to perform it no matter what or you can get banned or punished in some way” that would be seen as sexual coercion. A crime. CB, or any site, could face a huge lawsuit and criminal penalties over that. Models should be able to say “no”, regardless of how much a member has tipped. As with any sexual interaction, you can revoke consent at any time. And there’s definitely situations where models have legitimate reasons to revoke consent, even if an agreement was previously reached and tokens were paid.

However, if a model is continuously receiving tokens upfront for a show or tip menu act and then saying they’re not going to do it, so it’s obvious they’re just scamming members, then yeah, CB should investigate and take appropriate measures against the model. There’s been a huge influx of newcomers to the industry over the past few years that does stuff like this, and it makes the rest of us look bad when it becomes commonplace.

 

[HeadyRaven]

Nobody is forcing you to read these threads. Let the poor guy have at least a page or two of discussion before the food talk starts.

Amen. Any mention of the dark underbelly of the industry - even if it's acknowledged that the percent of either models or members who do unethical or dishonest stuff is small - gets the "food talk diversion." Either that or it's, "You're an idiot for not knowing any better" (blame the victim). Calling out something wrong in the business doesn't mean the entire business itself or the good people in it are being criticized.

 

[HeadyRaven]

if a model is continuously receiving tokens upfront for a show or tip menu act and then saying they’re not going to do it

Just for the record, in the situations I wrote about, the requests were very "vanilla." I'm talking about some blatant scammy shit involving what should be really kind of ordinary privates. It seems a lot of young (and hate to say again but they've been Russian and Eastern European) models on CB that haven't been there long, and it almost seems the idea is to do a bunch of this until someone makes them stop. And CB doesn't seem to do that, at least not quickly.

Not sure if it's the best way to make money (for those models) in long run but maybe studios in those regions are involved?

 

[Marceline]

Just for the record, in the situations I wrote about, the requests were very "vanilla." I'm talking about some blatant scammy shit involving what should be really kind of ordinary privates. It seems a lot of young (and hate to say again but they've been Russian and Eastern European) models on CB that haven't been there long, and it almost seems the idea is to do a bunch of this until someone makes them stop. And CB doesn't seem to do that, at least not quickly.

Not sure if it's the best way to make money (for those models) in long run but maybe studios in those regions are involved?

I was just pointing out that buying a burger at a restaurant and paying for someone to have sex with themselves or someone else on camera aren’t even in the same ballpark, and that consent is paramount in any sexual interaction, whether it’s a paid transaction or not. That was in reference to the post I quoted, not necessarily your opening post.

I’m not denying that there’s models who scam. Because obviously, it does happen. I don’t like it just as much as members don’t like it.

In regard to your question, if that’s a good way to make money in the long run, it’s obviously a horrible business tactic. If you go to independent models who have been in the industry for years, you won’t see that sort of behavior. Or if you do, it will be very rare.

I don’t have any personal experience with physical studios, especially foreign studios. So, my insight comes from what I see here, my own common sense and the fact that my best friend of over a decade is a Russian dual citizen who immigrated to America as a teenager after her mother married an American man. Yes, the studios are probably coaching models to do this. I’d assume they don’t care if a model gets banned, because for every model that leaves there’s many more willing to take her place. And I hate to say it, but I doubt the models themselves are opposed to scamming foreign men.

 

[Vixxen81]

Amen. Any mention of the dark underbelly of the industry - even if it's acknowledged that the percent of either models or members who do unethical or dishonest stuff is small - gets the "food talk diversion." Either that or it's, "You're an idiot for not knowing any better" (blame the victim). Calling out something wrong in the business doesn't mean the entire business itself or the good people in it are being criticized.

I'm calling out the fact you acknowledge there's nothing to be done, it's posted everywhere on the forum, nothing is going to change, yes you need to make better choices and the way you do that is by building rapport with a model and then going private. Not just slapping that button and going for it.


Re:.Consumer protection laws...CB has more lawyers than you can dream of pouring over this stuff every single day. Their TOS is iron clad and that's why it says it is at your own risk and cannot be enforced (parapharasing). No lawyer worth their salt would take your case.

 

[HeadyRaven]

you acknowledge there's nothing to be done

I never acknowledged that there's nothing to be done. CB could do several things. An easy one would be a review system like StripChat. That would cull this shit pretty quick. The first few suckers would still get ripped off but if there was an actual rating posted of every broadcaster's private sessions, like on SC, especially with written reviews, it would help others avoid the bad actors. And probably take away their incentive to scam.

"You need to make better choices" sounds like victim blaming. Sure, one can always be as careful as possible. But a member can have a reasonable amount of interaction with these kinds of broadcasters and if they are there to scam, they are there to scam. They'll just do even more to entice the member into a private.

I think this is why these kind of broadcasters are probably more prevalent (and survive longer) on a site like CB compared to say, StripChat or Jasmin.

 

[Vixxen81]

There is no rating system in place that does not hurt a model with no way for the model to challenge or have an incorrect review removed nor can models respond to ratings or reviews to give their side of the story.

Both of my downvotes are from two people who wanted me to watch their cam and I refused. No where in any of my information is there anything that says I watch cams. It doesn't say I don't watch cams either. I didn't have a chance to explain why before they decided to downvote me and it was an idiotic thing to downvote for. And guess what? Those fucking things last for 90 days.

So, really the only.way to make it "fair" is every person who tips 100 tokens or more to a model HAS to vote before they can leave the room and you know what that is going to do? Piss people off enough they don't tip at all.

I think your ultimate solution is to either tip in public, stay out of privates, or stay off of.CB. it is a social site where privates are secondary for most models and some may have felt pressured by you to accept the private and when the initial "tip to enter" fee didn't deter you, they thought you would simply leave the private after not doing anything.

Yes, it sucks. But again...consent can be revoked at any time and no model should be punished for that. If that's what you want, then go to SC because that's the kind of crap they pull there.

 

[yummybrownfox]

So, I'm not a regular CB user but have been on and off the site for years. In recent months, I've been visiting CB a bit more and checking out some broadcasts and doing some privates, usually couples. I don't know if I'm just in a run of bad luck, but I've had several instances lately of being, well, ripped off. By this I mean, for example, someone saying that a 1500 token tip is required upfront to do something - and then the broadcasters don't do it. (Like, just blatantly). Or in another instance, entering a private and the couple engaging in some crazy delay tactics and other interruptions and saying they will be back in a minute - and eventually coming up with an excuse to end the private without actually having done much of anything. I even had one where a couple goofed around for a few minutes and then said, "Oh, there's a problem; she (female performer) says that sex is painful to her today, so she can't continue." These are almost always situations where some token minimum in involved, so you get hosed for 10 or 15 minutes of tokens no matter what.

I know this topic has come up in the past, and the usual answer has been along the lines of: If you start to have problems in a private session, since it's per minute, just exit the show and not much is lost. While that's true if there's no minimum, you can still lose some tokens on absolutely nothing if the gimmicks and delay tactics are clever enough to keep you waiting a bit. And if there's a minimum, you can lose even more.

And as far as tips go, the answer is always that they are always completely discretionary on CB and so if you tip for something, even if there was an agreement discussed in the chat, the site will always come back and say, "Sorry" and point to the policy.

Okay, I get it. I don't necessarily agree with this business model (which is why I prefer sites with more accountability. But that's obviously a user perspective).

But it seems like Chaturbate in particular has set everything up to benefit them over anyone - whether broadcasters or users. I am constantly seeing models complaining here that CB bans often and sometimes in an arbitrary way or with little evidence. Yet oddly, even with screenshots of chats or other supporting evidence, I can rarely ever get anywhere with CB Customer Support on the types of issues I described above. Their default seems to be to forward the issue to the broadcasters, who of course lie and deny, and that's the end of it.

Meanwhile, the thumbs up/thumbs down system is completely inadequate as a means of warning members. Unless the broadcaster has a huge number of downvotes, it's just not effective. And the feature can be turned off, anyway.

I guess this is more of a "vent" than anything else. What bothers me the most is that with a couple of the incidents I experienced during the last few months, it wasn't only that the scamming was blatant, it's that the broadcasters were totally brazen afterwards. Like, "Well, sorry, that's how it goes. Ha ha. You can take it up with the site. Good luck. Ha ha" Like seriously, they know that they can hose a member out of 1000, maybe 1500 tokens really easily, and while that might not be a lot in a one time deal, if they do if fairly frequently, it could be somewhat profitable. And it's enabled by the site, as they know exactly what the member can't successfully complain about.

I think the answer is that I need to stop visiting Chaturbate! (Or maybe I need to stop trying out Eastern European or Russian broadcasters, which seem to be where I've run into these incidents without exception on CB).

Hi. I know I’ve said this on here before, and have no idea if others even cared to listen to me. Lol. But…

My suggestion is to save larger tips like that for your favorite models that you currently trust…not models you’re visiting for the first time, and barely know. I assure you that not every CB model is going to “rip you off.”

But also…if you’re looking for a b/g sex show or a model to use a dildo or any particular toy, ask beforehand if they’re cool with doing it right now. Women have various reasons to not be willing to do specific acts at that time (periods…sore…toy just died…they just don’t feel like it right now…etc.). Though, it sounds like from what you’re saying, the model actually did tell you they’re willing to do such and such, and then just didn’t?

Years ago an MFC regular tipped me 1,500 tokens, and just assumed that I’d use a dildo right there in public chat…just because it was the norm for other models to do it. He shouldn’t have assumed, and he really should have known better…because he’d been in my room enough times to know I wasn’t doing all that out in the public chat (I did more in private or true private). So, instead, I had give him something else for that tip (Can’t remember if it was worn panties…or Skype time or what).

 

[AudriTwo]

Maybe pay per minute private sites like streamate would be in your alley. That way if you dip out after 2 minutes, you only pay for 2 minutes.

 

[HeadyRaven]

There is no rating system in place that does not hurt a model with no way for the model to challenge or have an incorrect review removed nor can models respond to ratings or reviews to give their side of the story.

Do you oppose Google or Yelp reviews of restaurants or other businesses? Sure, they can respond to those reviewed by in the vast majority of situations, they never do. If a business has 1000 really great ratings and small number of negatives, people understand there are always some cranks who are never satisfied and I don't think it hurts those businesses.

But there should be some way to respond to reviews, or at the least, as small number of negatives shouldn't penalize the model. These seem like easy things a site could implement.

it is a social site where privates are secondary for most models and some may have felt pressured by you to accept the private and when the initial "tip to enter" fee didn't deter you, they thought you would simply leave the private after not doing anything.

Or how about the actual reason? They were scammers. 98% of cases, I never had a problem, even on CB. But for a few, let's call it like it is. It doesn't always mean that the member did something wrong. (And in my examples, there was no pressure from me. In fact, these broadcasters were very friendly and maybe even a little pushy in encouraging private sessions). There are actually cases where the member didn't do anything wrong - didn't make demands or act inappropriately - but ran into some seedy broadcasters who have been programmed to believe that members are there to be taken.

"consent can be revoked at any time" is a great principle except that for some it can simply mean, as the other poster said: "Hamburger $10, get your hamburger. Okay I've got your $10, now I decided: No hamburgers today." And for that I say, whether it's through a rating system or investigating those who have repeated complaints, CB should clean house.

 

[HeadyRaven]

My suggestion is to save larger tips like that for your favorite models that you currently trust…not models you’re visiting for the first time, and barely know. I assure you that not every CB model is going to “rip you off.”

This is the place I've reached. The vast majority of my experiences have been good on CB. Every one of these recent bad experiences involved taking a flyer on broadcasters who I was either visiting for the first time or who I had only minimal experience interacting with them. I won't risk it anymore. And I do look at those ratings, too. When I see someone has turned them off, that's a yellow flag. If I see 300 up votes and 3 down, I'm pretty confident. If I see 14 up and 6 down, I'm not going anywhere near them.

 

[Slapstick]

The section of the TOS that states tokens are gifts is there for a reason. If a site were to say “if a member tips for something, you have to perform it no matter what or you can get banned or punished in some way” that would be seen as sexual coercion. A crime. CB, or any site, could face a huge lawsuit and criminal penalties over that. Models should be able to say “no”, regardless of how much a member has tipped.

To be clear, I am absolutely NOT saying that a model should be required to perform any action they do not wish to perform. Just that the CB TOS violates California law and would likely be unenforceable if anyone did take them to court. But there is some room between sexual coercion and a legally unenforceable TOS. For example, CB could allow performers to refund tips if they wish to not perform an action for whatever reason. What CB can not do Is both prohibit an activity and then turn around and actively encourage that activity.

Re:.Consumer protection laws...CB has more lawyers than you can dream of pouring over this stuff every single day. Their TOS is iron clad and that's why it says it is at your own risk and cannot be enforced

That is what CB wants you to think, but their TOS is anything but iron clad. Lots of companies much larger than CB with even more lawyers have been found liable and sued successfully. Tesla just lost a $243 million lawsuit over the way they described their autopilot system and "Full Self Driving" cars. Don't you think Tesla's lawyers signed off on the language describing Tesla's autopilot? Yet Tesla still lost.

CB is not counting on how good their lawyers are, they are counting on no one being in California to take them to small claims court. No lawyers are needed for small claims, but few people are going to bother for the tiny amounts involved. That is what CB is counting on, not an iron clad TOS.