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Asking Viewer Private

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Dec 4, 2020
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I would really appreciate some insight from models, around asking a viewer if they want to go private.
The cynic might think it is just an opportunity to make some tokens, particularly if it is a slow day.
But are there genuinely viewers that you want to be more one-on-one with, and would ask this of?
If so, what are the reasons - you trust them to not end it after 2 minutes, you want to get to know them better, you want to make sure they are satisfied, you want them to stay interested in you, you know you will enjoy it too?

Bit of context:
Last night, a model asked me this question. I was a little preoccupied with stuff on my mind, and not really in the right mood for private, but very happy to stay chatting publicly and tipping.
So I explained all this, saying I'd love to do that another night, and soon.
She came straight back to me offering to cut her private rate of 60/min to just 12/min, saying she wanted to be private for a very long time.
I thanked her for the (surprising) offer, but restated that it was for the reasons I mentioned and nothing to do with the cost. I also told her that I would never ask to lower the rate.

FWIW, this is someone I have been in private with many times before.
 
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It sounds like that model was desperate to make her goals if she was willing to cut her rates 80%. Good on you for not taking her up on that and valuing her services.

I say next time this happens, politely decline with a tip, so she knows she is going to be earning tokens while in freechat. I usually don't believe a member is going to say they will tip, until they do so. Even if they have tipped or done shows with me in the past.
 
Keep in mind before reading my response that I don't work CB or any other token sites. SM only, which is primarily a private based site.

But are there genuinely viewers that you want to be more one-on-one with, and would ask this of?
Yes, sometimes it's because they are going too far in free chat and I don't accept it when things get too one-on-one in public. I'm not saying that's what your situation was though, I'm just answering the question thoroughly. But, yes, even in that case I can still enjoy a private with them sexually, as well as making money. So I will suggest it. In the very least it's also a subtle way of me saying "you're taking this too far in public, get a show, come back another night, or tone it down in public chat." Often surprisingly, they do get a show, which I guess would mean they were shy and waiting to be invited (??). Never sure how to think of that, because as a viewer I am not shy like that, I'm really assertive, so it's confusing to me.

Other times it's a regular who I have an Hx of good shows with, and I've just had a ton of shows which have left me "unsatisfied" (but left the viewers satisfied) back to back. In those cases I really want to get off, and I know certain regulars are guaranteed to do that, and so I'm desperate for a private with them (above all others).

I can't say I always know I will enjoy it fully too. I will enjoy it in that I am making money, seeing someone else happy, getting turned on. However lots of shows don't take me fully to where I want to be. So that's a complicated question.

you want them to stay interested in you

Never this for me. I know plenty of people will be interested in me, and people come and go. Maybe I'm overconfident, but I never feel the need to keep anyone 'interested in me". Even when I was a new model I really never felt like that. I just don't. I've never been that way irl dating either. Maybe there's something wrong w me. I fear Lions attacking me in my sleep. I never fear that men will suddenly get bored of stroking their cocks to women online, or that dick will suddenly run dry on the planet. If a regular gets bored of me, I'd encourage them to move on. That's the freedom of paying for it. NSA. Same as the fact that sometimes I get bored and move on/ block, even though a certain guy still wants shows and to spend. We're on a paid, adult site, so neither of us has to worry about guilt, owing to each other, or attachment. That's why it's so great (in my eyes).

you want to get to know them better
Never. I want to see their cock, make money and get slutty with them. Sure I like some of them and we have little chats and stuff, where we are genuinely friendly. But in a paid show, I wanna get sexy. People can pay me for talking only shows ... sure. But it's not something I encourage or usually particularly enjoy. Unless they are gonna be really light-hearted, funny, and friendly (which rarely happens).

Lol.., I could end this post with a poem. But I shall spare you guys hehe.
 
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Thanks!
Yes, I explained that I already thought her private rate of 60 was low, so (to me) it would be insulting to her to try and negotiate down. Plenty do though. And she says 60 feels right for now.
Also, she had already met all her goals for the show, and I had tipped throughout.
So that's what got me wondering about motivations for a model asking to go private, more generally than specifically in last night's case, because it did not seem to be just about revenue.
 
Thanks!
Yes, I explained that I already thought her private rate of 60 was low, so (to me) it would be insulting to her to try and negotiate down. Plenty do though. And she says 60 feels right for now.
Also, she had already met all her goals for the show, and I had tipped throughout.
So that's what got me wondering about motivations for a model asking to go private, more generally than specifically in last night's case, because it did not seem to be just about revenue.
goals for the show met, but how about overall daily or weekly goal? I'm fairly certain the next CB payday is coming up? Don't they cash out every two weeks?
 
Keep in mind before reading my response that I don't work CB or any other token sites. SM only, which is primarily a private based site.


Yes, sometimes it's because they are going too far in free chat and I don't accept it when things get too one-on-one in public. I'm not saying that's what your situation was though, I'm just answering the question thoroughly. But, yes, even in that case I can still enjoy a private with them sexually, as well as making money. So I will suggest it. In the very least it's also a subtle way of me saying "you're taking this too far in public, get a show, come back another night, or tone it down in public chat." Often surprisingly, they do get a show, which I guess would mean they were shy and waiting to be invited (??). Never sure how to think of that, because as a viewer I am not shy like that, I'm really assertive, so it's confusing to me.

Other times it's a regular who I have an Hx of good shows with, and I've just had a ton of shows which have left me "unsatisfied" (but left the viewers satisfied) back to back. In those cases I really want to get off, and I know certain regulars are guaranteed to do that, and so I'm desperate for a private with them (above all others).

I can't say I always know I will enjoy it fully too. I will enjoy it in that I am making money, seeing someone else happy, getting turned on. However lots of shows don't take me fully to where I want to be. So that's a complicated question.



Never this for me. I know plenty of people will be interested in me, and people come and go. Maybe I'm overconfident, but I never feel the need to keep anyone 'interested in me". Even when I was a new model I really never felt like that. I just don't. I've never been that way irl dating either. Maybe there's something wrong w me. I fear Lions attacking me in my sleep. I never fear that men will suddenly get bored of stroking their cocks to women online, or that dick will suddenly run dry on the planet. If a regular gets bored of me, I'd encourage them to move on. That's the freedom of paying for it. NSA. Same as the fact that sometimes I get bored and move on/ block, even though a certain guy still wants shows and to spend. We're on a paid, adult site, so neither of us has to worry about guilt, owing to each other, or attachment. That's why it's so great (in my eyes).


Never. I want to see their cock, make money and get slutty with them. Sure I like some of them and we have little chats and stuff, where we are genuinely friendly. But in a paid show, I wanna get sexy. People can pay me for talking only shows ... sure. But it's not something I encourage or usually particularly enjoy. Unless they are gonna be really light-hearted, funny, and friendly (which rarely happens).

Lol.., I could end this post with a poem. But I shall spare you guys hehe.
Awesome feedback - thank you!
I like the consideration about taking things too far in public. This particular model does not really have any limitations on content in the public stream, but that's a great point to remember!
 
was it a studio model? when i was on a call with a friend today, she mentioned that theres alot more models on the last few days of the month,due to them getting payment on the last\first day of the month, and its about that time.
 
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goals for the show met, but how about overall daily or weekly goal? I'm fairly certain the next CB payday is coming up? Don't they cash out every two weeks?
Could be right, never asked.
Another reason I'm not sure it was about revenue though was the suggestion to cut the rate so dramatically. I do tip well throughout a private, but at the offered 12/min base rate, that's a fair drop upfront to have to regain.
 
Whoops I forgot to add, that I sometimes give discounts to regulars out of gratitude. Genuine gratitude. I know everyone thinks models give free shit and discounts out, to keep people on the string or whatever. But to be 100% honest, I often do it purely out of gratitude, and because I'm in a happy mood and wanna spread the love. I genuinely enjoy making other people feel good (when I can, and if I can), and especially if they have made me feel really good in the past. Of course, it's not wise to take that too far, so I try to be more selective in who I do that for these days. But I also know that no one ever trusts that, which sucks. It's probably best they don't though since it keeps them personally safer from being conned.
 
Could be right, never asked.
Another reason I'm not sure it was about revenue though was the suggestion to cut the rate so dramatically. I do tip well throughout a private, but at the offered 12/min base rate, that's a fair drop upfront to have to regain.
it's probably revenue. it's something i've seen models do quite regularly come close to payday if they need to make more. i've been that model. i've lowered my rates in the past trying to earn $50 more before cut off. an hour private for 12/m? that's $35. convince maybe four other people, in two days, get paid out $140 more.

remember this is a job.
 
it's probably revenue. it's something i've seen models do quite regularly come close to payday if they need to make more. i've been that model. i've lowered my rates in the past trying to earn $50 more before cut off. an hour private for 12/m? that's $35. convince maybe four other people, in two days, get paid out $140 more.
remember this is a job.
True. And never going to forget it's business. The emphasis on the length of the offered private probably threw me off (*);
An hour at the normal and offered rate would be just over $140 less to her payout, based only on the per min rate.
But of course, getting the private with someone who tips well means she'd be way in front by the end.
Someone who tips little, or not at all, in private would be another story.

This probably answers the question!
(Although great comments by @EliMarie717 around sometimes asking to go private for other reasons)

(*) I've never gone more than 1.5 hours in a private, so when she said 'really long' I was like wtf, that's not going to happen, unless you're allowing me time for a quick recovery snooze in the middle :rofl:
 
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Bit of context:
Last night, a model asked me this question. I was a little preoccupied with stuff on my mind, and not really in the right mood for private, but very happy to stay chatting publicly and tipping.
So I explained all this, saying I'd love to do that another night, and soon.
She came straight back to me offering to cut her private rate of 60/min to just 12/min, saying she wanted to be private for a very long time.
I thanked her for the (surprising) offer, but restated that it was for the reasons I mentioned and nothing to do with the cost. I also told her that I would never ask to lower the rate.

FWIW, this is someone I have been in private with many times before.

What is interesting about your post is that you seem to spend all your time with her explaining how you felt and what you needed (or did not need). But you spend your time here asking the models what does she want and need, and what are her intentions? Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and more direct to just ask her those questions?

Since you know the model and have already gone private with her before, I think you can dig around a little, particularly since she started the topic. I would definitely start out by asking her about all the things that might motivate her to want a private that do not involve sex. The problem with starting out with sex is that most models assume that is what you want, and the conversation can become a sales pitch targeting you.

Examples of topics that do not involve sex:

* Are you short on your financial goals for the day? How many more tokens does your studio want you to make to meet your goal today?

<wait for answer...>

* Are you tired of being in public chat today? Did someone say something bad to you, or are you just tired of having to perform in front of people?

<wait for answer...>

Actually the specific questions within each of those topics does not matter. You are just trying to make her feel safe talking about the topic, if she wants to. If none of those topics finds a reason, then ask:

* Then why do you want to go private with me, right now?

If she opens up the topic of sex, what I am looking for is enough detail to convince me I am not being conned. Simply saying "I'm so horny" does not work for me at all. But if she gives a plausible story - and you were in her room so you could partially verify it - then I might get interested. Some plausible stories would be:

- "I had some other privates and could not finish, and I really want to finish"

- "I have not finished in a few days and really want to"

Basically that's the case where you are just a sex prop, and maybe that is okay given that this is a webcam site and everything is being done in a honest way.

The sexual case I especially listen for is where she tries to connect to me in a very personal way. For example:

- If she mentions something very specific about what I talked to her about another time, and she tells me that she could not stop thinking about it

- She tells me she liked something we did

In this case, she is trying to make a sexual connection with me, and if I say no to her I might be damaging the relationship. She is going to assume I am not into her. She might feel rejected. If a model is being this personal with me, I am likely to want to explore this with her even if I am not in the mood, because I value the long-term connection and communication more than my own needs in that moment.
 
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Never this for me. I know plenty of people will be interested in me, and people come and go. Maybe I'm overconfident, but I never feel the need to keep anyone 'interested in me". Even when I was a new model I really never felt like that. I just don't. I've never been that way irl dating either. Maybe there's something wrong w me. I fear Lions attacking me in my sleep. I never fear that men will suddenly get bored of stroking their cocks to women online, or that dick will suddenly run dry on the planet. If a regular gets bored of me, I'd encourage them to move on. That's the freedom of paying for it. NSA. Same as the fact that sometimes I get bored and move on/ block, even though a certain guy still wants shows and to spend. We're on a paid, adult site, so neither of us has to worry about guilt, owing to each other, or attachment. That's why it's so great (in my eyes).

Never. I want to see their cock, make money and get slutty with them. Sure I like some of them and we have little chats and stuff, where we are genuinely friendly. But in a paid show, I wanna get sexy. People can pay me for talking only shows ... sure. But it's not something I encourage or usually particularly enjoy. Unless they are gonna be really light-hearted, funny, and friendly (which rarely happens).

Lol.., I could end this post with a poem. But I shall spare you guys hehe.

This was really a great post for a viewer to read. It felt honest and really gives a good context for understanding how a model can think about such situations. But I am really feeling like a poem would help to clarify the emotions and take your post from great to epic. :joyful::playful::p

I want to clarify the whole poem comment because I think about the world in very abstract terms, and many people on this forum are extremely literal. I was not saying that anyone was a poet. I was not saying that anyone was like a poet in the literal sense of putting emotions to words. I was using a metaphor to express the idea that some people are more emotive than abstract and analytical. But it was a bad thing to do because one should never make any kind of blanket statement about a group.
 
What is interesting about your post is that you seem to spend all your time with her explaining how you felt and what you needed (or did not need). But you spend your time here asking the models what does she want and need, and what are her intentions? Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and more direct to just ask her those questions?
OK let me explain. This particular model and I do not speak the same language, we use viber or Google translate. But most of the communication is of a sexual nature, and she knows enough English of that type of talk to work out what to do, without need of translation.
In the discussion around her offering me a private, she did not seem to understand my explanation, and kept coming back to the issue of reducing the private rate, which I did not want her to do; I respect her time and even said that she could miss out on a full-rate private if I accepted. I thought it pointless to keep trying to have the same conversation with her, or to bring it up again and revisit it afterwards. I was just not in the right head space, and we weren't on the same page of understanding.
So I came here, where there is a wealth of industry knowledge, helpful and fun personalities, and a common language, to see if I could better understand what was going on.

Also, I don't know that it is appropriate for me (as the customer) to ask too many questions about the financial side of the model's work, like hitting goals, cashouts, etc.
 
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Also, I don't know that it is appropriate for me (as the customer) to ask too many questions about the financial side of the model's work, like hitting goals, cashouts, etc.
Yes. Definitely not. You’re 100% right there. Never do that. Best thing is to ask here, like you did.

Although I get what s’mores is saying. But I think his directness might not be something that would not be appreciated as much in the camming context. Although a real life more normal context, I think it definitely would. And would be admired. I think a lot of cam models would claim right up w that level of directness in show. Whereas here I feel people are more relaxed and in more of a wanna help out mode, than a at work gotta get to the goal mode.

I’m not always right though. Just my opinion.
 
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OK let me explain. This particular model and I do not speak the same language, we use viber or Google translate. But most of the communication is of a sexual nature, and she knows enough English of that type of talk to work out what to do, without need of translation.

I follow Russian models almost exclusively so I have the same issues. I have learned to use translators very well. I think in this case you can pretranslate the questions so that it becomes easier to explore what she wanted, and then save off the chat to translate again later if you did not catch her meaning the first time.

In any case, reading your question I think the communication barrier is not only about the language difference, but it also about thinking model differences. You tend to be abstract and think analytically, and you keep trying to reduce things to your own framework for how to model the conversation. You are focusing on issues like what private rate you think is best for her, without even establishing why she asked you for the private or what she really wants.
 
This was really a great post for a viewer to read. It felt honest and really gives a good context for understanding how a model can think about such situations. But I am really feeling like a poem would help to clarify the emotions and take your post from great to epic. :joyful::playful::p

I want to clarify the whole poem comment because I think about the world in very abstract terms, and many people on this forum are extremely literal. I was not saying that anyone was a poet. I was not saying that anyone was like a poet in the literal sense of putting emotions to words. I was using a metaphor to express the idea that some people are more emotive than abstract and analytical. But it was a bad thing to do because one should never make any kind of blanket statement about a group.
(Sorry for DP, laughing too hard to use the analytical, organized side of my brain rn)

I thought your comment about poets was great. I'm 9 mos pregnant, stuck in either a bed or a tub most of my day, which is depressing as Hell! It got me laughing and being ridiculous for literally 5 hours to myself, making up stupid poems.

I am glad you clarified though, because when you explained what you meant, then I totally got what you were saying and agreed with it. But I have to admit, taking you literally was a lot of fun (at least for me).

Roses are Red,
Violets are Blue,
Gimme all your money,
So I won't live in a shoe.

(Oh and P.S. ... show me your dick too).

😆 😆

LOL, I'm so sorry everyone, I know the "poetry" needs to stop. I promise it will! Soon!
 
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You are focusing on issues like what private rate you think is best for her, without even establishing why she asked you for the private or what she really wants.
I understand your point.
Everything I have experienced as a consumer in this environment is that it is always business, never personal (and this is borne out by numerous discussions here with those on both sides of the equation).
So to me, quizzing a model about exactly why she asked me private, and then offered a lower rate for a longer time, is not a good idea. And could actually detract from the sexual nature of any future encounter, if every behaviour gets analysed.

I just figured there was maybe another consideration that I wasn't seeing at the time, so I came here to ask.
And I reckon I figured it out (with some prompting) in reply #12 above.
 
I understand your point.
Everything I have experienced as a consumer in this environment is that it is always business, never personal (and this is borne out by numerous discussions here with those on both sides of the equation).

I agree 90% of the time it is all business and there is not much to figure out. But 10% of the time there is something else going on, and unless you ask direct questions you will probably not figure out the real situation. If I took 10 models in the situation you gave, and I tried to reason it out for myself, I would get to the wrong conclusion probably 10 out of 10 times. Reading the minds of people you do not know well is tough. Asking people "why did you do that" and then just shutting up and really listening to them is an extremely valuable communication skill to have, and after doing that enough times I have realized I am not going to guess on my own correctly most of the time. For myself, learning to just shut down my brain and really listen - even when I disagree - has been one of the most beneficial aspects of this webcam adventure.


So to me, quizzing a model about exactly why she asked me private, and then offered a lower rate for a longer time, is not a good idea. And could actually detract from the sexual nature of any future encounter, if every behaviour gets analysed.

You are totally right on that. Many models will get confused or turned off by too many questions. So you have to pace being analytical with being instinctive. Try to be more emotive and instinctive in most of your interactions. In this particular case she is the one who brought you the proposal, so I think she is going to put up with the questions that result from that.

What if what motivated her was as situation like EliMarie describes where she had a private earlier that aroused her but she did not finish and she just wanted to finish. Here you are lecturing her about what her private rate should be, and you aren't discovering what she is actually wanting or trying to tell you. You walk away thinking you are the white knight for protecting her 60 token rate, and what if she then goes into a private with another guy at 12 tokens, who lets her finish. She walks away thinking you are not really into her, don't really listen to her when she is trying to tell you something, etc. That's not a win-win for either you or her.
 
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You walk away thinking you are the white knight for protecting her 60 token rate, and what if she then goes into a private with another guy at 12 tokens, who lets her finish.
No WK syndrome here, just tried to explain that it wasn't the rate (normal or reduced) that prevented me wanting to go private, it was my mood. But in that explanation, said I would never ask her to budge on the rate she had set, as it is more than fair and no doubt a lot less than she could get.
Have I ever suggested she raise that rate, perhaps even just for me? No. Surely anyone seeking to be viewed as a WK might do that?

Some days I just like to be around people whose company I enjoy, and that can even include fellow regulars in the room as well as the model. Doesn't always revolve around sexual stuff.
Other times, it can be quite a different story. Maybe I'm becoming a moody male!

Interestingly, this particular model has in the past told me as soon as I go in her room if she is not in the mood either, which I always appreciate and never question why.
Guess I just don't see her mood as being my business; and not seeing that changing, maybe I'll never know her reasons.
 
Interestingly, this particular model has in the past told me as soon as I go in her room if she is not in the mood either, which I always appreciate and never question why.
Guess I just don't see her mood as being my business; and not seeing that changing, maybe I'll never know her reasons.

Okay, that is valid, and you get to set the boundaries of your own curiosity. The only point I am trying to establish is that if I were that curious about any model's behavior and tried to just guess on my own, my batting average would be pathetic. Once I understand how she thinks about things, then I can start to read emotions and thoughts from behavior alone, but it takes me a lot of work to get to that point with a person. Your mileage may vary. There are many personality types that are incredibly intuitive about people and can read these things without asking. If that is your strength then great.

And don't pay any attention to my using charged words like "white knight". I am just making the point that sometimes we try to protect what we believe to be a person's best interests, without understanding what that person's goals are in a situation.
 
Some days I just like to be around people whose company I enjoy, and that can even include fellow regulars in the room as well as the model. Doesn't always revolve around sexual stuff.
Other times, it can be quite a different story. Maybe I'm becoming a moody male!
I think a lot of people who are big fans of token sites are like that. Right?
Whereas more private-based sites like SM, tend to have less of that, and more of the straight-to-the-sexual stuff.

I wouldn't know though. I have been SM exclusive for years. And although I'll tip on some of the token sites, I never actually go to rooms and hang out. It's been years since I've visited an MFC room. I've never visited a CB room, while the model has been online. Always just an offline tip.
 
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I think a lot of people who are big fans of token sites are like that. Right?
Whereas more private-based sites like SM, tend to have less of that, and more of the straight-to-the-sexual stuff.
That's an interesting one to think about; tend to agree though. You ask interesting questions!
For me right now, not all days are the same. Sometimes I am just seeking some companionship, other days I am needing the sexual aspect.
With the few rooms that I frequent, I know they can offer both, because I choose them based on the personality of the model as much as their appearance, if not more so. And I get used to the other regulars, and try to engage with them too. But no matter my mood, companionable or on a mission, I will always chat and tip, could never just take up space and not contribute.

I have never really tried the type of room that is all about the chat, though may involve some nudity. Perhaps that is something I should reconsider, on the days that I'm more seeking companionship.
Equally, I have never tried one of the private-based sites, but no surprise that it is far more to-the-point.

Maybe I should broaden my site usage. I guess I just became familiar with the CB way of doing things, and stick around because it feels comfortable.
 
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I have never tried one of the private-based sites, but no surprise that it is far more to-the-point.
LOL! Literally!
Maybe I should broaden my site usage. I guess I just became familiar with the CB way of doing things, and stick around because it feels comfortable.
Yes, I've been feeling the same but opposite, as to exploring more token sites recently.
Idk this new Cherry TV one might be good too? I'm definitely intrigued by it.
I think it's gonna attract a lot of gamers, so I think there's likely gonna be a lot of good humor, socializing, and braining it out, there. Plus some real kinky shit.
 
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If someone is the only one tipping/engaging with me, I will ask them if they would rather go private. However, I run my room a bit differently and don't always accept privates. I only turn it on when public chat/tips are a bit slow and people have requested it. I will usually ask a specific person because I know that it will be fun, we'll both get off, and we'll have a good conversation afterwards. Seems like this may be a similar situation especially since you've been private with her many times before. She might've just wanted to get out of public, but wasn't quite ready to log off because of goals (whether they were financial or time spent online goals.)

I say next time this happens, politely decline with a tip, so she knows she is going to be earning tokens while in freechat.

So much this ^

If you're not in the mood, try to not feel bad about it. The time and money you spend online should be enjoyable for you and not cause you to feel guilt or anything negative, unless that's your kink of course.
 
I think a lot of people who are big fans of token sites are like that. Right?
Whereas more private-based sites like SM, tend to have less of that, and more of the straight-to-the-sexual stuff.

Personally, I can go either way. Sometimes its 100% sexual and transactional. Sometimes I enjoy hanging out and my tips are more for appreciation/time spent than for some attempt to get off.

But, it’s a lot rarer to find a model whose personality lines up with mine to an extent that makes me spend time & money in her room even when I’m not looking for sexual stuff. Those are the models most likely to get me as a “regular.”

Even if I get a fantastic sexual performance from a model, if I don’t connect with her personality, I’m not necessarily going to be a regular.
 
Personally, I can go either way. Sometimes its 100% sexual and transactional. Sometimes I enjoy hanging out and my tips are more for appreciation/time spent than for some attempt to get off.

But, it’s a lot rarer to find a model whose personality lines up with mine to an extent that makes me spend time & money in her room even when I’m not looking for sexual stuff. Those are the models most likely to get me as a “regular.”

Even if I get a fantastic sexual performance from a model, if I don’t connect with her personality, I’m not necessarily going to be a regular.
Interesting. It’s nice to hear that many of you are like that here on ACF. That’s cool. We are all humans above anything else, and we do all have social needs too. Despite camming also being about business to the model. It’s always fun to have a positive or thoughtful interaction, that goes well, with another person out there too.
 
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