Etiquette for Goal Shows

[Smores]

It really isn't flipping my views, since it's up to her to make those decisions. I was giving my viewpoint on it, with what I have seen a number of models do and how I felt. Ultimately, it's her decision on how to run her business. Which, has always been my stance from the beginning. She'll either learn or not and potentially keep losing members.

But I was never trying to take away her right to make her own decisions. This thread was supposed to be about establishing whether there is a common etiquette for when and how to end a goal. And you are agreeing that the way she ended this goal probably violates you own sense of propriety. From what I have seen in your other threads, you would probably spend less time and less money on a model who did this. That is what I care about: what is the member's response to this behavior.

I'm not asking you to justify it. Where I am at is that I feel you keep sticking your head further down the rabbit hole, and eventually you're going to find that it's a snake hole. Everyone has to make their own decisions regarding what kind of help to give, how long, and when to cut their losses. While you say you're not as likely to do so in the future, I feel you still are allowing yourself to be taken by those whom you still want to help. You follow 200 models, yet say "only about 4" or 98% are ones you'd want to help.
There's no way I could follow 200 models, I'd be sitting on cam sites all day just doing that. Add in that you're here asking questions for models you're doing things for, as well as actually doing the work for them? When do you have time to sleep, or work to make money and pay your bills and tip the 200 models you follow?

Having a 200 channel TV, does not mean you spend time on all 200 channels. I have a 500+ channel digital TV, and I haven't turned it on once in a year. For a model to get on my CB follow list might mean nothing more than I saw her online once and I had a moment of curiosity. It does not mean I am invested in her or that I will ever spend time with her again.

Regarding the rabbit and snake hole, your assumption seems to be that my only goal is to improve the relationship with the model. On that count, I might agree with you in many cases. But what you are ignoring is that I want to learn the business side of the activity, and she is giving me an opportunity to do this that is independent of any personal relationship.

 

[Smores]

You follow 200 models but you don't have relationships with them. Every member "follows" hundreds, but they only establish a relationship with a selected few, the models that speak to them, say, 5. So in reality 100% of your relationships with models are of the coaching type. The other 195 you follow are the ones you casually watch, you probably interact very little if at all with.

I would say it is more like 50/50. For the core group of models I like to interact with, I want to help about half of them. I am getting a lot wiser as I do this activity. Helping people is expensive to my time. It usually does as much to strain the relationship as to improve it. In the end, you create a model who will not have as much time for you. You have to be really clear on your motivations before you jump into that activity. And the truth is not everyone can be helped. I only want to help someone who can be successful.

But your basic instinct here is right. I am a workaholic who has problems sitting on his hands and just kicking back. Guilty. Maybe I need to focus on finding people who can help me relax.

Oh but that is not your goal. Some members get off the 1 on 1 attention the model gives them, I call these guys "romantics". Others get off the sexual acts the model performs, these are "sexuals". For some it is about the bragging rights of displaying wealth through publicly tipping in front of hundreds, these are "braggies". Then there is a group who get off on power dynamics with the model which is in my opinion the group you belong to. While a romantic would want to maximize the attention the model gives him, a braggy will want to have his name plastered all over her profile in the high tips sections, and a sexual will want to see her put a bat up her ass, a power hungry guy like you is in heaven when a model enacts a script written by him with a show thought up by him, a lighting setup suggested by him and perhaps music, poses and lingerie he chose. You even claim the model's success as yours. In another thread you literally said "I would move her faster if I wanted but I dont want to make her feel awkward" you MOVE the model like it was furniture around the site and if she is successful is because you wanted it.

Well, I love the attempt to break members down into types. I am into the Myers Briggs (MBTI) personality classification system, so I like this kind of personality analysis.

I think I am a broken romantic. In practice, to trigger that part of me would take a level of depth and consistency and persistence that just is not going to be found in a webcam relationship, so this part of me gets suppressed. But it is there, and it is probably more dominant than the other parts.

I am not power hungry. I am success hungry. I do not care at all who moves the ball over the goal line. What I care about a lot is that someone sees the goal and gets the ball there. In fact, it would be a thrill to meet a model who wanted success, asked for help, and then figured out all of these issues on her own and simply asked for a sounding board to confirm her thinking. But as I have said other places here, those are models who do not need my help. I have no need to get involved in that case.

If I meet a model who wants help, who I think has amazing potential, and who I want to help, but who has no idea how to make progress, how do we characterize that? You want to characterize it as me being on a power trip. I want to characterize it as having fun helping someone I care about. So, yes, I am going to suggest goals. I am going to ask the model to confirm that these goals are her goals. And I am going to observe success as the ability to accomplish those goals. I like to succeed. I want her to succeed. You make it sound like I want to be at the awards show after she wins some contest. I don't even want to attend the awards show. But I am going to observe when her viewer counts go from 50 to consistently over 700 in two months. I need to see such metrics as confirmation that the time spent was not just a lot of empty talk. You want to characterize that as me taking credit for her success. I want to just characterize it as she was successful. Given her inability to see how to get there on her own, sure I had a big role to play in that. But it is not about me. It is about achieving the goal and succeeding.

 

[briandf255]

That in spite of it you think you are smarter than them and can teach them how to do their own job. This is a job you have never done.

I've seen this sentiment expressed here before and I don't necessarily agree with it. There are certain things that other cam girls can give better advice for and there are certain things customers can give better advice for.

For example, I just don't see the manager of a grocery store, when confronted with having to find out what products they should sell or how can the store improve service, think to himself: "Bah... None of my customers are in the grocery business, so what the hell do they know? I'll just poll the managers of other grocery stores in the area instead - after all they are the ones who know what they are doing!"

Sure, you wouldn't ask a customers to tell you how much to charge for a box of cereal, because many of them would low-ball you. You would be better off asking your competitors how much markup they add to the price the supplier charges you. You also wouldn't ask a customer how to arrange the logistics of getting the product to the store in time from your suppliers or what brand of shelving is the best, because they don't know about that. But, in my opinion, it would be just as misguided to only ask the operators of other grocery stores to tell you what product your customers want more of or what product you don't carry that your customers wish you had or what you could do better when it comes to service that would make your customers happier. Sure, they could help, but they are not the best source of information for those questions.

I don't see how that's different from camming. If you want feedback about customer satisfaction, such as what you are doing that may turn away some of your customers and what you are doing that makes your customers especially happy with you or more generally what people like cam girls to do and what they don't like them to do, you're not going to get as good an answer from your fellow cam girls as you would from your customers. Likewise, other cam girls can probably give you a lot better advice about how to set up your room, what types of shows worked for them, what kind of payment processors they recommend, where they bought sexy outfits for camming, and many other things... but they are not the best source of advice for absolutely everything that has to do with camming.

That's not to say that every single piece of feedback from a customer needs to be taken seriously, just like the grocery store would not have to act on every single customer gripe ("Put my favourite brand of yogurt next to the entrance, so I can quickly grab it when I'm in a hurry, instead of having to walk all the way to the back of the store to the dairy section."), but as a collective, customer suggestions are helpful if you keep in mind that everyone has their own tastes and it may not necessarily represent the majority and of course the fact that you also have your own limits and ideas about what you want to do on cam. But I disagree with the notion that someone who has not done this as a job never has anything as useful to say as another cam girl.

Some members get off the 1 on 1 attention the model gives them, I call these guys "romantics". Others get off the sexual acts the model performs, these are "sexuals". For some it is about the bragging rights of displaying wealth through publicly tipping in front of hundreds, these are "braggies". Then there is a group who get off on power dynamics with the model which is in my opinion the group you belong to. While a romantic would want to maximize the attention the model gives him, a braggy will want to have his name plastered all over her profile in the high tips sections, and a sexual will want to see her put a bat up her ass, a power hungry guy like you is in heaven when a model enacts a script written by him with a show thought up by him, a lighting setup suggested by him and perhaps music, poses and lingerie he chose. You even claim the model's success as yours.

Your categories are spot on... I love it!

 

[Mila_]

You make it sound like I want to be at the awards show after she wins some contest. I don't even want to attend the awards show.

No. I never said that. I said you want control over a model so she enacts your script and you claim credit for her success. I said you think of models in terms of furniture you can move around. Take this quote for example:

In the end you create a model that does not have that much time for you

You see yourself as someone with the power to “create a model”. How do you create them exactly? Is a model a piece of clay? Is she a block of wood? Do you mix her in a bowl like a cake?

Do you have a big role to play in her success because you told her to put up goals? Cause you told her to buy a softbox lighting set? By telling her to pose for the camera? That’s all very basic stuff she could learn on her own in a day. You don’t even give them the ACF URL. If you were as focused on your own success as you are with your own power trips you wouldn’t spend 100 hours a day here and on a camsite micro managing 4 victims.

 

[Smores]

How do you create them exactly? By telling her to put up goals? By telling her to buy a softbox lighting set? By telling her to pose for the camera? That’s all very basic stuff she could learn on her own in a day. You don’t even give them the ACF URL. If you were as focused on your own success as you are with your own power trips you wouldn’t spend 100 hours a day here and on a camsite micro managing 4 victims.

I absolutely give them the ACF URL. And not one has ever signed up. Beats me why. It was not because I hid anything.

I agree with you nothing here is rocket science. But the one model being discussed here made no changes after an entire year of modeling. I do not understand why some people get these issues intuitively and others struggle with them. At the end of the day I just want her to be successful.

 

[AudriTwo]

I absolutely give them the ACF URL. And not one has ever signed up. Beats me why. It was not because I hid anything.

Because they don't want to sign up. Not everyone puts the same effort into their job or likes forums.

I agree with you nothing here is rocket science. But the one model being discussed here made no changes after an entire year of modeling. I do not understand why some people get these issues intuitively and others struggle with them. At the end of the day I just want her to be successful.

End of the day it is NONE of your business. It is hers alone. If she doesn't want to correct her problems, you can't hold her hand and coach her through it. She may not even think it's a problem.

If you want a cammodel to be successful, fucking pay for their services. That's it. This need of yours to coach them and mold them into your version of a successful screams as controlling.


Honestly, you seem like you need work on boundaries and not trying to micromanage models or mold them. If I had a member even try to do what you do, I'd be incredibly uneased anytime you'd be in my room to the point where I will ban you if you don't knock it off after being warned once. You are the type of customer I avoid.

 

[AudriTwo]

've seen this sentiment expressed here before and I don't necessarily agree with it. There are certain things that other cam girls can give better advice for and there are certain things customers can give better advice for.

We have a thread in MO about all the terrible advice members give us. Sometimes i feel like you dudes would benefit on reading it. Trust me, it's very VERY RARE to get good advice from members.

 

[briandf255]

We have a thread in MO about all the terrible advice members give us. Sometimes i feel like you dudes would benefit on reading it. Trust me, it's very VERY RARE to get good advice from members.

Sure... Dumb customers will give dumb advice and dumb models will also give dumb advice. Maybe smart customers know that even if they have something constructive to say, you girls usually don't want to hear it so they keep their mouths shut, so the advice you do get mostly comes from dumb members.

Anyways, my point was that there are certain things about camming where members (provided that they are insightful, intelligent, observant, etc.) could give a lot better advice to a cam girl than another cam girl could. That doesn't change even if most guys you hear from are idiots.

 

[curvyredhead]

this thread tho...

 

[Smores]

End of the day it is NONE of your business. It is hers alone. If she doesn't want to correct her problems, you can't hold her hand and coach her through it. She may not even think it's a problem.

She is the one who asked me for help.

Everyone in this thread is making a bad assumption that a person who wants something in their life to change can always effect that change on their own without anyone else's help. Some people can do everything on their own. Some people cannot. Sometimes a person wants to learn to drive and cannot figure out how to do that on their own.

People who need help, and who ask for help, should be able to receive help without everyone questioning all the motives of the giver and the receiver.

Honestly, you seem like you need work on boundaries and not trying to micromanage models or mold them. If I had a member even try to do what you do, I'd be incredibly uneased anytime you'd be in my room to the point where I will ban you if you don't knock it off after being warned once. You are the type of customer I avoid.

First, I would see you know what you are doing and never offer you help.

Second, I would intuitively sense your personality and see that you are not the person who is open to other people helping you. I wouldn't try.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

This is my last response to this thread, or to any others regarding your helping models. Let me break it down for you:

But I was never trying to take away her right to make her own decisions. This thread was supposed to be about establishing whether there is a common etiquette for when and how to end a goal. And you are agreeing that the way she ended this goal probably violates you own sense of propriety. From what I have seen in your other threads, you would probably spend less time and less money on a model who did this. That is what I care about: what is the member's response to this behavior.

You're right, I would spend less time in her room. If at all if she continued to do the resetting of goals. But, that doesn't mean I have the right to tell her how to run her room. Even if she asks, I might off a quick suggestion or answer. Nothing more, not my place.
Also, you took my initial post out of context, and you missed the very key statement of all of it:

I've seen models do different things, and it's all up to them as to how they want to run it. It's up to the members if they want to support it.

If a model resets her goal, I could see it if she takes a long break (couple hours) and comes back with a new goal. 15 minute break, nah. She can put herself as "away", and it should keep her goals in place. At least it does on MFC, unsure of CB or others. I've also seen models do a couple rounds of her goal shows but with different clothing on.

If she gets dressed before end of show, to me that says she's done and then there shouldn't be a goal. Just tips for admiration/gift/etc.

Even from the beginning, I made it perfectly clear that it's the model's business to run as she wants. If the members like it, continue to support her. If not, spend tokens elsewhere. Seemed pretty fucking simple enough to understand. But, like most things, you take it out of context only to support your position.

Having a 200 channel TV, does not mean you spend time on all 200 channels. I have a 500+ channel digital TV, and I haven't turned it on once in a year. For a model to get on my CB follow list might mean nothing more than I saw her online once and I had a moment of curiosity. It does not mean I am invested in her or that I will ever spend time with her again.

You don't get it do you? Your example of the TV is bad. With a TV, you have channels AVAILABLE to you to watch. You said you FOLLOW 200 models. That means you consciously made the decision to click the "Follow" button with the intents to keep up on them. If you have zero intention of ever interacting with them, drop them from your list.

Regarding the rabbit and snake hole, your assumption seems to be that my only goal is to improve the relationship with the model. On that count, I might agree with you in many cases. But what you are ignoring is that I want to learn the business side of the activity, and she is giving me an opportunity to do this that is independent of any personal relationship.

No, again, you see this only from your perspective instead of stepping back and looking at it from a different perspective. The rabbithole turning into a snakehole analogy is that you blindly go into something thinking it's all good, no dangers. You get so wrapped up in yourself and what you're doing that you ignore the warning signs, the little hints that tell you something's wrong until it's too late.

Anyways, I'm done. I've spent far too much time on this, and really cutting my losses here. Please don't quote my post because I'm not going to bother anymore.

 

[Smores]

You're right, I would spend less time in her room. If at all if she continued to do the resetting of goals.

This is all I care about. If a model does what she did, many men - like you - will leave her room and she will fail to convert a viewer into a regular customer.

At no point did I ever tell her how to run her room. I gave her my understanding of how many men would perceive her actions, and I left her to make her own decision, which she did.

Nowhere in this thread did I say I was trying to make her decisions for her, or tell her what to do. It is unfortunate that she used the word 'permission' to describe her own situation (which actually did not involve any permission, because she never asked anyone for permission), and it is equally unfortunate that I repeated back the word she used. As a result of that one unfortunate mistake, this entire thread got derailed.

 

[AudriTwo]

Sure... Dumb customers will give dumb advice and dumb models will also give dumb advice. Maybe smart customers know that even if they have something constructive to say, you girls usually don't want to hear it so they keep their mouths shut, so the advice you do get mostly comes from dumb members.

Anyways, my point was that there are certain things about camming where members (provided that they are insightful, intelligent, observant, etc.) could give a lot better advice to a cam girl than another cam girl could. That doesn't change even if most guys you hear from are idiots.

valid constructive criticism when is appropriate, sure. a lot of custy members on this forum have been able to give help or advice that i've found useful. but most guys dont. i also raise my eyebrow to the ones (like OP) who go out of their way to help other models actively for some self-absorbed importance purpose under the disguise "I"M DOING IT FOR DA MODELS".

there is always some guy in these threads who have to pipe in the "NOT ALL MEMBERS GIVE BAD ADVICE." of course, that would be silly and a generalization. but by doing that validates the person who have this obsessive need to help models. (op)

 

[briandf255]

there is always some guy in these threads who have to pipe in the "NOT ALL MEMBERS GIVE BAD ADVICE." of course, that would be silly and a generalization. but by doing that validates the person who have this obsessive need to help models. (op)

OK.. Cool.

For the record, this was never about whether all customers give good advice or some customers give good advice or no customers give good advice. It was about whether it is possible for someone who has never done something to nevertheless be able to give useful advice to someone who is trying to do it. There are many ways to learn. One of them is by trying something for yourself, but you can also learn by observing someone else doing something. I believe we learn a lot by observing, especially as children, and by the time we try doing something for the first time we have a pretty good idea how to do it. By saying that a customer who has not done something is not qualified to give advice implies that we cannot learn by observing and that's what I was disputing.

How many customers give good advice and how many don't has nothing to do with that. (I agree with you that most don't, probably because they are trying to improve the model from their own perspective - how the model could be better for them, not how the model could be better overall especially for herself. But since I don't know what terrible advice you were referring to earlier, I don't know if that's really the case. It's just a guess.)

Whether we should try to give advice or not is an entirely different argument. I generally don't give feedback to cam girls about what I think they should or should not do. I've only done it once and that was a to cam girl on MFC who repeatedly kicked out all customers from her room for not tipping within 10 minutes, but it took a pretty extreme situation like that to prompt me give her unsolicited advice.

 

[sinfulbbwbabee]

I'm not an experienced cammer but, I know I wouldn't feel right about resetting a goal randomly. It happened a couple of times though that I really wouldn't reach it and had to log out.
But it never happened that people really stayed in the room for hours after tipping for the goal and waiting for it to be done so, no one complained either.

Also because of this (the fact that I have a hard time having my goals reached) I'm really careful about doing those kinds of shows. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of promising something I won't deliver.

I'm not experienced either but I've noticed that I may have to shift some of my goals a little bit, although I don't feel I would ever completely reset the goal like that. I've also never had any complaints haha

 

[Lintilla]

I gave her my understanding of how many men would perceive her actions, and I left her to make her own decision, which she did.

No you didn't. You came here and carried on in thread about the subject, and when it came out that you had a specific model in mind as your reason for posing the question, you proceeded to ask us for advice on how to convince her she's wrong. I'm SO sure you won't be bringing it up with her again in the future, until she magically makes "her own decision" to see the wisdom of your advice.

Second, I would intuitively sense your personality and see that you are not the person who is open to other people helping you. I wouldn't try.

I don't think @AudriTwo is closed off to help at all. But it's interesting that you think that of someone who is self-assured and apparently seek out the opposite sort of person to "help".

 

[AudriTwo]

I don't think @AudriTwo is closed off to help at all.

when asked and when it's appropriate, sure. i have gotten help from several members here on multiple threads. i also don't need help or seek from members because it's my responsibility to maintain my business. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Smores]

No you didn't. You came here and carried on in thread about the subject, and when it came out that you had a specific model in mind as your reason for posing the question, you proceeded to ask us for advice on how to convince her she's wrong. I'm SO sure you won't be bringing it up with her again in the future, until she magically makes "her own decision" to see the wisdom of your advice.

I want to make the best argument possible for my point of view. That is in no way making a decision for the model. As you yourself said, I am trying to *convince* her, which presupposes by definition that she owns the decision, not me. Am I going to make points to people in which I make the weakest possible argument? Of course I am going to try to build the best argument. And the fact that I want to hear how others think about this issue is further confirmation that I am not trying to own this issue.

I don't think @AudriTwo is closed off to help at all. But it's interesting that you think that of someone who is self-assured and apparently seek out the opposite sort of person to "help".

Who am I going to teach to drive? Am I going to teach someone who has no license and who comes to me asking for help? Or am I going to go to a NASCAR race driver and presuppose that I have anything to teach that person? I have nothing to teach Audri. I am the one who is going to learn from Audri, not vice versa.

All of that is common sense. Instead you choose to frame it as me seeking out the weakest person. I understand the limits of my knowledge, and I don't try to help people unless I have something of value for that person.

Who exactly should an Eastern European model working in a studio go to for help? She does not speak good English, so ACF is not a great solution for her. Her studio does not help her. She cannot afford to hire professionals. She has no friends who are experienced models who want to help her. If we implement all the suggestions in this thread she ends up pleading to me for help and getting no help, and then she spends another full year with 50 viewers in her room. Do you actually ever have a positive idea to share on any issue? I am all ears about how you would solve her problem.

 

[Lunasha]

there is always some guy in these threads who have to pipe in the "NOT ALL MEMBERS GIVE BAD ADVICE." of course, that would be silly and a generalization. but by doing that validates the person who have this obsessive need to help models. (op)

#notallmembers


(Sorry that's not a very constructive comment. But I read through the whole thread and I almost have a headache now. )

 

[paige_orion]

I want to make the best argument possible for my point of view. That is in no way making a decision for the model. As you yourself said, I am trying to *convince* her, which presupposes by definition that she owns the decision, not me. Am I going to make points to people in which I make the weakest possible argument? Of course I am going to try to build the best argument. And the fact that I want to hear how others think about this issue is further confirmation that I am not trying to own this issue.

The thing is... It isn't the place of a member to ARGUE with a model. She has her own way of doing things, whether or not you agree with them. To argue presumes you know more about what is best for her than she does, and I think that's where it gets rude. You already explained to her your thoughts and feelings on the matter, which means the case should be closed. But to continue to argue and try to change her mind... That's not very nice and that's where it starts to lean into power-hungry territory and leave the helpfulness behind. If you don't like the way she runs her room, then I would recommend finding another model. But her room is her room, and her choices are her choices. To argue with her about her decisions, even if you think it's for her own good... That's where it gets into inappropriate territory. You might want what is best for her and truly want to help... But it seems like she's made her opinion very clear on this matter. Continuing to push the matter is not helpful, not really. That's where it starts to appear more like a power game than true helpful intentions, at least looking at it from an outside perspective.

You say that your models ask for help. But words are one thing, and action is another. If she truly wants to help herself find success, she has all of the tools at her disposal. If she wants to change, she can seek the information herself. If she wants to change, she will implement the information that she has obtained. If she doesn't do any of that, then she doesn't truly want . It's like.... I always say I want to write a book. Do I? Of course. But if I never ACTUALLY sit down and write it.... It means I don't really want it that much after all, y'know? I don't need someone to hold my hand and pressure me into doing it, and if someone tried that kind of pressure, I think it would definitely cause some bad-feelings in the relationship. There is friendship and encouragement and support - and THEN there is someone trying to influence my decisions and continue to press their own opinions after I've made my feelings clear.

Wanting to help people is one thing. It can be admirable. But thinking you know better than them about their own choices... That's dangerous territory, in my opinion. If you give advice, and they simply don't take it.... Then that's when the matter comes it an end. It does not require multiple discussions, it does not require convincing, it does not require better arguments. When a model has clearly made their decision, then it's best to accept her answer as final, and not something that needs changed. They have a reason for what they do. Continuing to breech the subject isn't nice or polite or helpful (it comes across as pretty condescending, actually), and I don't think any model enjoys that feeling. You already stated your point of view to her, and that's it. Whether you think you are right or wrong, it doesn't really matter. She is the model. It is her room. It is her business.

 

[Lintilla]

Who am I going to teach to drive?

Why. Are. You. Teaching. Anyone.