Ferguson shooting grand jury verdict

[Poker_Babe]

Seems Michael Brown's step dad was telling everyone to burn the city down??? :shock:

http://news.yahoo.com/michael-brown-stepfather-burn-this-down-ferguson-video-182317962.html

 

[camstory]

It's only the first minute of this video that is relevant, and even that not so much to this thread, but it does show the huge difference between police in the UK and here. This guy would have been killed almost immediately here in the states, regardless of mental state. And personally I wish US cops were a bit more like those in the UK.

Most of the time the guy would be have tasered in the US not shot. There is also a big difference between having to deal with potentially dangerous guy when you have 8 turning into 20 cops with riot shields to help out vs, the situation where it is one or two officers.

Well I made a point to say it was not so relevant to this thread, (b/c the circumstances are not at all alike), and yes I would like to agree with you that in the US this guy would have been tased, or bean bagged, and in the good part of town you're prolly right. But in the hood I think it is highly unlikely things would go that long. Most cops would handle this sort of thing in a bad/poor neighborhood the same way they handle everything else there - with little restraint, or concern for the welfare of the ppl there. {Scumbag had a machete raised above his head and comein toward me just the other side of my unit, green light to drop him. Hell, wait on you to tase his punk ass, what if you missed, hahahaha}

 

[Shaun__]

It's only the first minute of this video that is relevant, and even that not so much to this thread, but it does show the huge difference between police in the UK and here. This guy would have been killed almost immediately here in the states, regardless of mental state. And personally I wish US cops were a bit more like those in the UK.

Most of the time the guy would be have tasered in the US not shot. There is also a big difference between having to deal with potentially dangerous guy when you have 8 turning into 20 cops with riot shields to help out vs, the situation where it is one or two officers.

Well I made a point to say it was not so relevant to this thread, (b/c the circumstances are not at all alike), and yes I would like to agree with you that in the US this guy would have been tased, or bean bagged, and in the good part of town you're prolly right. But in the hood I think it is highly unlikely things would go that long. Most cops would handle this sort of thing in a bad/poor neighborhood the same way they handle everything else there - with little restraint, or concern for the welfare of the ppl there. {Scumbag had a machete raised above his head and comein toward me just the other side of my unit, green light to drop him. Hell, wait on you to tase his punk ass, what if you missed, hahahaha}

It would probably help if cops traveled two to a patrol car instead of one. Although training would still have to be improved greatly. A cop killed a man in a stairway last week, because he thought he heard a noise and panicked. Link

 

[Bocefish]

Well, at least they didn't call it an assault "rifle"

 

[Bocefish]

This video pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole incident.

Warning: Graphic content may not be suitable for everyone.

Spoiler

 

[dilligaf0]

1) Wilson had mace and a nightstick, why weren't those used first?

2) In MY OPINION, Wilson should have called for and waited for back-up before engaging two people he "suspected" of robbery (the first version told by Ferguson P.D.).

3) An indictment of "involuntary manslaugter" (which was an option to the Grand Jury) would seem to be called for.


:twocents-02cents:

 

[dilligaf0]

When looking at Ferguson, consider this.




And these guys were called "patriots" at the Bundy Ranch standoff.






And finally, remember this about the police.

 

[Bocefish]

For the people that want a trial, go to http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson ... dence.html to see the evidence that the Grand Jury saw. They didn't indict because there was no credible evidence that Officer Wilson did anything unlawful so a trial would be a major waste of time and money just like the Trayvon trial was.

Witness 10 statement http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... ss-10.html starting on page 4 is particularly interesting...

Click on images to enlarge

 

[dilligaf0]

I forgot to mention, I agree wholeheartedly with the body camera idea. :dance:

 

[dilligaf0]

This is what I wanted to post in the police picture.

 

[Remykins]

What I don't understand is why pepper spray/baton/taser wasn't used? If a criminal has a weapon and there is a chance he can kill you first, then of course shoot away. But he was unarmed, which means a simple taser or pepper spray would have been effective enough to stun him and cuff him. I just don't get it. I don't buy the whole "he was heavier set than the officer and therefore shots fired were warranted" because if an officer can't be trained enough to deal with people of all sizes, then they shouldn't be on the force. Thats why they're equipped with non-life threatening weapons like batons, pepper spray, tasers, to take down bigger/quicker assailants. I just don't understand.

 

[Poker_Babe]

 

[camstory]

This video pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole incident.

Warning: Graphic content may not be suitable for everyone.

Spoiler

Well I'm not sure about the conspiracy theory, but he makes a very good point that seemed obvious to me. That point being, that this battle was not just a defeat, but a very real weakening of the effort in battling police brutality. When I say defeat, I am not talking about the grand jury's ignoramus call, yes that was a defeat for those who wanted an indictment no matter what, but considering what appears to be the circumstances there was little chance any GJ would have returned any different. I do not know in missouri if grand Juries are used in the same way they are in California, but i expect so. In Ca they are almost always used to 1: pressure a defendant to accept a plea deal being offered, or 2: if no deal is being offered, or the deal is not accepted, to expedite trial. This works to the prosecutor's advantage b/c if the GJ indicts, trail is set, and there are none of the usual pre-trial hearings. But it's only an advantage if the GJ indicts, and therefore prosecutors only invoke a GJ when they are very sure they will indict. Defendants know this, and when offered a plea bargain or the possibility of a GJ indictment, the senseable defendants take the deal, b/c it does not make sense to go straight to trial, (in my county the % of cases in which a GJ did not indict was less than 1%), and risk almost sure conviction and a greater jail term. I believe the reason the GJ did not indict in this case is b/c they had no reason to, and that it only went before a GJ because the prosecutor had little choice but to do so. Had he made the choice himself not to prosecute, that would have been chaos, and had he decided to prosecute it would have been a waste of time and money. And, when the officer was acquitted, there still would have been many crying foul. (And I can't blame them b/c when you have been fouled so many times, it can become how you view everything.)

It was a defeat b/c it may serve to persuade some who are sceptical about all this police brutality nonsense, that it is nonsense. It is not nonsense -it happens all the time in the best of places, and I am glad I have never had to experience it where it is really bad, like Ferguson, or as a minority. (But don't get caught up in it being all about race, b/c it is not. Most bad cops I've met I don't believe were racist, but hated equally and were apt to be abusive any time it suited them, and they thought they could get away with it.)

Someone said that cops have a lot of ppl who hate them for no good reason, or for little reason, or something like that. That's not the case in my experience. The ppl who I have known that hated cops all had reason, some more than others, but none without reason. But that is what many ppl believe, and are the same ppl who when told of some abuse of power by a cop, answer, Oh a police officer would never do that. These are the ppl who have just one more reason now to believe the police would never do that. This police officer may have been justified in this killing, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. But it is ashame that this case became a national battle, b/c it only serves to reinforce the misguided beliefs of ppl who don't think police abuse their power, or that it is a random occurrence.

 

[dilligaf0]

What I don't understand is why pepper spray/baton/taser wasn't used? If a criminal has a weapon and there is a chance he can kill you first, then of course shoot away. But he was unarmed, which means a simple taser or pepper spray would have been effective enough to stun him and cuff him. I just don't get it. I don't buy the whole "he was heavier set than the officer and therefore shots fired were warranted" because if an officer can't be trained enough to deal with people of all sizes, then they shouldn't be on the force. Thats why they're equipped with non-life threatening weapons like batons, pepper spray, tasers, to take down bigger/quicker assailants. I just don't understand.

The cop didn't have a taser, only pepper spray and a nightstick. (both effective weapons).

 

[Gen]

What I don't understand is why pepper spray/baton/taser wasn't used? If a criminal has a weapon and there is a chance he can kill you first, then of course shoot away. But he was unarmed, which means a simple taser or pepper spray would have been effective enough to stun him and cuff him. I just don't get it. I don't buy the whole "he was heavier set than the officer and therefore shots fired were warranted" because if an officer can't be trained enough to deal with people of all sizes, then they shouldn't be on the force. Thats why they're equipped with non-life threatening weapons like batons, pepper spray, tasers, to take down bigger/quicker assailants. I just don't understand.

The cop didn't have a taser, only pepper spray and a nightstick. (both effective weapons).

He claims he didn't want to use pepper spray as it could spray himself as well, and he couldn't reach his baton.

 

[Remykins]

What I don't understand is why pepper spray/baton/taser wasn't used? If a criminal has a weapon and there is a chance he can kill you first, then of course shoot away. But he was unarmed, which means a simple taser or pepper spray would have been effective enough to stun him and cuff him. I just don't get it. I don't buy the whole "he was heavier set than the officer and therefore shots fired were warranted" because if an officer can't be trained enough to deal with people of all sizes, then they shouldn't be on the force. Thats why they're equipped with non-life threatening weapons like batons, pepper spray, tasers, to take down bigger/quicker assailants. I just don't understand.

The cop didn't have a taser, only pepper spray and a nightstick. (both effective weapons).

He claims he didn't want to use pepper spray as it could spray himself as well, and he couldn't reach his baton.

Ok, so his preferred method of deterrent was to shoot to kill, rather than the off chance that pepper spray would have gotten on him? See, call me a crazy Canadian, but I wouldn't feel ok with that type of rationalization being on my local police force. If need be, shoot him in the arm, leg, whatever to stop him, if you absolutely don't have anything else to use. I just can't wrap my head around why that boy died. I just can't. *shrugs*

 

[MrRodry]

1) Wilson had mace and a nightstick, why weren't those used first?

2) In MY OPINION, Wilson should have called for and waited for back-up before engaging two people he "suspected" of robbery (the first version told by Ferguson P.D.).

3) An indictment of "involuntary manslaugter" (which was an option to the Grand Jury) would seem to be called for.


:twocents-02cents:

He did - but Wilson testified that he used channel 3 during the whole situation and the P.D. main channel is channel 1. From Wilson testimony to the grand jury:

Considering this example of police work, maybe they should include a chapter of "Check Your Radio." in Shoot Until He Stop Moving 101.

 

[Bocefish]

You never want to use pepper spray in close quarters or if there is any risk it will get in your own eyes, period.

If a gun didn't give Brown second thoughts to obey police commands, threatening to pepper spray him or brandishing his nightstick would likely be laughable to Brown. Police pull there weapons as a deterrent in some situations but are also ready to fire if needed.

All this shoot him in the arm or leg crap is from watching too much TV. The odds of anyone being that accurate with a pistol in a life or death situation is about zero. As it is, officers only hit their target about 34% of the time and are trained to continue firing until the threat is gone.

Why Don't Police Shoot to Wound?
By Brett Snider, Esq. on August 19, 2014 8:06 AM
Police are often harshly criticized for their lethal use of firearms, giving many reason to wonder: Why don't police shoot to wound?

That was CNN's Wolf Blitzer's question to legal scholar Jeffrey Toobin when discussing the shooting death of Ferguson, Missouri, teenager Michael Brown. "Why can't they shoot a warning shot?... Why can't they shoot to injure?" Blitzer queried.

To answer Blitzer's (and your) questions, here's a general overview of why police don't shoot to wound:

Firing on a Suspect Is Lethal Force, No Matter Where You Aim

Although it certainly makes a difference to the suspect where an officer aims and fires his or her service firearm, the legal justification behind lethal force doesn't change. Police are allowed to open fire on a suspect when there is either:

Imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm; or
A fleeing felon who poses imminent danger if he or she escapes.
Regardless of whether an officer aims for the body, arms, head, or legs, there must be either of the above elements present before an officer can pull the trigger. Perhaps this is why Toobin explained that when cops fire a gun, "they have to accept the risk that they might kill someone."

Very Unlikely to Hit Arms and Legs

Part of the problem of asking cops to shoot to wound is the lower statistical likelihood of actually hitting a suspect in the arms or legs. The Omaha, Nebraska, Police Department notes that because armed encounters are rarely with a stationary suspect, expecting officers to shoot a suspect's arms or legs is "not feasible nor is it realistic."

Police officers are trained to fire at the center mass (the torso), which both increases the odds of subduing a deadly threat and decreases the likelihood of hitting innocent bystanders.

Why Not Fire a Warning Shot?

Many police departments have the same policy against warning shots, concerned that an errant bullet may harm innocent civilians. However, this doesn't mean that warning shots are never used by the police. The Missoulian reports that a Montana police officer fired a warning shot and successfully stopped a fleeing, mentally unstable armed suspect in 2012.

There is no nationwide standard for police with regard to shooting to wound, but it may be food for thought to legislators.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

At least two people have criticized other people for getting upset over vandalism and the burning of flags and insinuated people care more about that than the death of an 18 year old criminal.

That is very black and white thinking. It's very possible to be upset over the death of a human AND be upset at the horrendous reaction towards it (vandalism) AND be upset by burning flags. It's not one or the other. There's no "rule" that only one thing is allowed to upset you. So please, realize that you can be upset about multiple things and that doesn't make you insensitive or bad in any way.

 

[camstory]

BTW when just now reading this back

I am not talking about the grand jury's ignoramus call

I was not calling the grand jury's choice that of ignoramus, or i was, but only in so much as that is what it is called when a grand jury does not return an indictment/true bill.

 

[Bocefish]

Forgot to add in my earlier post that Brown was indeed shot in the arm a few times which did not even slow him down prior to the fatal shot according to witness testimony. His toxicology report came back showing his THC levels were twice that of someone being over the limit to drive. Whether that influenced his poor decisions is probably pretty likely imo.

I just can't wrap my head around why that boy died.

He made the choice to charge at an armed police officer he had just assaulted and suffered the consequences. The frickin' lame ass media made him out to be some helpless little boy, when in fact he was a 6 foot 4 inch 292 pound thug. One of these day the lamestream media will wait until the facts come out in cases like these before they spew their bullshit propaganda inciting violent riots.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

At least two people have criticized other people for getting upset over vandalism and the burning of flags and insinuated people care more about that than the death of an 18 year old criminal.

That is very black and white thinking. It's very possible to be upset over the death of a human AND be upset at the horrendous reaction towards it (vandalism) AND be upset by burning flags. It's not one or the other. There's no "rule" that only one thing is allowed to upset you. So please, realize that you can be upset about multiple things and that doesn't make you insensitive or bad in any way.

To be fair, it does seem like you and some others are looking at it in a very simple way. Death of an 18 year old criminal, horrendous reaction, it just seems like you aren't looking at the big picture. Horrendous is a good word to describe the way cops treat blacks. Cop kills another unarmed black man, sorry I mean thug/criminal, and people are talking about stealing cigars and burning flags. Should we care more about the petty stuff or the big picture? What about all the peaceful protesters? Not saying you shouldn't be upset about everything but I think that focusing on the petty stuff is counter productive. I'm upset about the riots but I'm a little more mad how cops can basically kill any black man and that this trend has no stop in sight. So please realize why some aren't that upset by the reaction of a group of people that have been shit on for years and rarely see any type of justice.

 

[Bocefish]

To be fair, it does seem like you and some others are looking at it in a very simple way. Death of an 18 year old criminal, horrendous reaction, it just seems like you aren't looking at the big picture. Horrendous is a good word to describe the way cops treat blacks. Cop kills another unarmed black man, sorry I mean thug/criminal, and people are talking about stealing cigars and burning flags. Should we care more about the petty stuff or the big picture? What about all the peaceful protesters? Not saying you shouldn't be upset about everything but I think that focusing on the petty stuff is counter productive. I'm upset about the riots but I'm a little more mad how cops can basically kill any black man and that this trend has no stop in sight. So please realize why some aren't that upset by the reaction of a group of people that have been shit on for years and rarely see any type of justice.

Guess I'm one of those guilty of looking at it in a simple way. Let's see how my simple way looks... Brown commits a strong arm robbery assaulting the store owner in the process and shortly thereafter proceeds to mouth off to a police officer asking him to move from the middle of the street. Brown subsequently assaults said officer inside his vehicle and tries to take the officers sidearm while getting shot in the process. Brown then flees the scene after getting shot in the hand, but for some reason decides to stop running away when the officer pursues him on foot... turns around and starts rushing towards the officer he just assaulted disobeying every command to stop. The officer then fires his weapon hitting Brown numerous times, yet Brown continues rushing towards the officer until the officer finally lands a fatal shot.

Yet somehow Brown is now the victim of police brutality stirring up a world wide movement with violent protests destroying innocent people's property and dreams?

How the fuck does that make any sense?

Because just about every bleeding heart liberal, including Obama & Holder, CNN, MSNBC rushed to judgement before all the facts were revealed.

Where's all the outrage for the daily shootings and murders of black on black?

I'm all for ending police brutality and removing the few bad officers from positions of power, but the low life cretins that loot and destroy their own communities are taking away from any positive message this movement based on false premises is trying to accomplish.

:twocents-02cents:

 

[Teagan]

Someone said that cops have a lot of ppl who hate them for no good reason, or for little reason, or something like that. That's not the case in my experience. The ppl who I have known that hated cops all had reason, some more than others, but none without reason. But that is what many ppl believe, and are the same ppl who when told of some abuse of power by a cop, answer, Oh a police officer would never do that. These are the ppl who have just one more reason now to believe the police would never do that. This police officer may have been justified in this killing, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. But it is ashame that this case became a national battle, b/c it only serves to reinforce the misguided beliefs of ppl who don't think police abuse their power, or that it is a random occurrence.

I said that actually and stand behind it. Hating all cops cause of a bad one you heard about or have personal experience with is like people hating all blacks for a bad one too. Its stereotyping an entire thing over the actions of a few. Like people are now stereotyping all of Ferguson over riots when more were peacefully protesting and a few got out of hand. You can not blame an entire entity/race/town for the actions of a few. It's wrong to do. You blame the guilty alone. So no do not hate all cops, do not hate all blacks, do not hate all of Ferguson, just hate the bad ones only.

Also you have to take into account those who hate things who are just ignorant people to begin with. My room mate hates cops in one town we live by because one gave him a ticket one time. The cop was completely justified in said ticket as he was speeding and breaking the law. But now roomie just hates all the cops in that town. To him they are all pigs and out to get him now. Its ignorant thinking though. Its like some people when they actually commit crimes or do wrong feel justified in blaming a cop for doing nothing more than catching them for it. How about you dont do the crime and blame someone else for it instead. That is not being justified in hating a cop or cops. And we have to realize this is the case a lot of times why people dont like cops. Not because the cop did wrong, but because they did and refuse to admit to themselves the truth.

When in TN one night my neighbors ex/husband/wtf ever he was at the time came to her house and was beating her up in front of their kids. The cops came and were screaming at him outside to get the fuck down on the ground with his hands on his head. He kept refusing and was screaming at the top of his lings he did no wrong and telling them to go away and he wasnt doing a thing they said. Finally one tasered him as he was going to go back in the house where she and the kids were. He went down and they cuffed him. The second he regained himself he was fighting and kicking and screaming again. Actually had the stupidity to start screaming "police brutality, call the state police" over and over again. Instead of stopping and realizing ever that he was in the wrong over and over again this guy actually wanted to blame the cops for doing nothing more than stopping him from committing more crimes. Yes sometimes people are just damn ignorant and wanna blame everyone but themselves. BTW the guy was black and all the cops were white. In a hugely racist part of TN. He wasnt shot (and several had their guns out and pointed at him) for the simple fact that they had time to formulate a plan and react in a group setting. Completely different but just an example of how sometimes people are just stupid in hating cops for just doing their job.

All that said i'll repeat what I said earlier that I do know there are very bad cops who abuse power. I just dont agree with blaming them all for everything and thinking everything they do must be wrong cause of some bad ones. Im all for making sure every cop car has a dash cam and every cop has a personal cam so finally these people cant just scream Police Brutality over their own stupid actions.


Other than that I wanna agree also if a gun did not stop this guy or break him out of his thinking of attacking someone then pepper spray and a nightstick wouldnt do it either. He was intent on going after him. He was shot already and given the opportunity to surrender right then (yet again) as the cop stopped shooting but instead CHOSE to start going after him again. He repeatedly made bad choices and suffered the consequences. That's what some people are ignoring and I dont get that. His own parents are ignoring their own kid did wrong. Yes there are bad cops, yes there are racist cops, but the fact is in this case the guy repeatedly chose to attack someone given every chance to stop and surrender. Multiple times. If you dont understand why he is dead understand that's why. You repeatedly attack someone with a gun you should expect to get shot in self defense.

About the radio being on a different channel did anyone stop to think maybe it was changed during the initial attack on Wilson in his car? That it got hit in the attack. Or that maybe thats what he had it on and in the heat of a moment after being physically assaulted he just forgot to change it back? People wanna judge and jump to conclusions and take apart every thing they would have done differently but everyone forgets what it's like to be attacked with adrenaline running and no time to make decisions and all that goes with that. Mistakes do happen but the bigger mistake in all of this was Browns choices to attack someone.

 

[eclipse76]

I read back in August that there was multiple witnesses saying Brown had his hands raised while he was facing the police officer, and that the autopsy mandated by the defense was consistent with that. Did they present these witnesses and autopsy during the Grand Jury?

 

[Teagan]

I read back in August that there was multiple witnesses saying Brown had his hands raised while he was facing the police officer, and that the autopsy mandated by the defense was consistent with that. Did they present these witnesses and autopsy during the Grand Jury?

Yes and it was found the people who said he had his hands up were liars. They were not even at the scene nor had they seen a thing yet gave statements anyway just to get the cop in trouble. The actual witnesses who did see things said he was attacking the cop, not surrendering at all.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Brown is now the victim of police brutality stirring up a world wide movement with violent protests destroying innocent people's property and dreams?

Never claimed he was a victim, was pointing out that he didn't need to die. I don't believe that he was violently rushing the cop, he could have been but it would make more sense that he was trying to surrender.

Because just about every bleeding heart liberal, including Obama & Holder, CNN, MSNBC rushed to judgement before all the facts were revealed.

We still don't have all the facts and yet people are still rushing to judgement.

Where's all the outrage for the daily shootings and murders of black on black?

It's on pretty much every hip hop album and talked about daily. Not something you seem interested in.

I'm all for ending police brutality and removing the few bad officers from positions of power

Yay, we agree on something.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I read back in August that there was multiple witnesses saying Brown had his hands raised while he was facing the police officer, and that the autopsy mandated by the defense was consistent with that. Did they present these witnesses and autopsy during the Grand Jury?

Yes and it was found the people who said he had his hands up were liars. They were not even at the scene nor had they seen a thing yet gave statements anyway just to get the cop in trouble. The actual witnesses who did see things said he was attacking the cop, not surrendering at all.

Got a link?

 

[Teagan]

I read back in August that there was multiple witnesses saying Brown had his hands raised while he was facing the police officer, and that the autopsy mandated by the defense was consistent with that. Did they present these witnesses and autopsy during the Grand Jury?

Yes and it was found the people who said he had his hands up were liars. They were not even at the scene nor had they seen a thing yet gave statements anyway just to get the cop in trouble. The actual witnesses who did see things said he was attacking the cop, not surrendering at all.

Got a link?

Yeah. Look at the transcripts. People were found to be liars.

Also you may not have personally claimed he was a victim but several have and he just wasn't. You may not also personally believe he was rushing the cop but that's what the witnesses and jury and evidence found to be true. You can think whatever way you want to though. Based on evidence alone what makes sense is he was attacking a cop repeatedly and not surrendering. If he had intent to surrender he wouldnt have attacked the cop to begin with, or try it again and again.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Cops should have just sprinkled some crack on his dead body. I mean, it sat there for four hours, they had the time. Tragic situation and shouldn't really be joking but don't want to argue, would rather post some Chappelle.