I accidentally discovered that sites like ppal, amazon, etc. are not discriminating against camgirls

[mynameisbob84]

This thread is starting to confuse me a little. On the one hand, the consensus seems to be "nah, buying content from a cam girl poses no greater risk than buying content or goods from anyone else. PayPal are in the wrong". But on the other, the consensus also seems to be "you shouldn't buy content from a cam girl before you know you can trust them and if you do, you only have yourself to blame because not every model can be trusted".

I completely agree with getting to know a model before buying content from them. Buyer beware and all that. But if we accept this as the sensible thing to do, do we not also have to accept that the reasons for this being the sensible thing to do are the very same reasons for PayPal not wanting to work with individual cam girls?

 

[Nordling]

This thread is starting to confuse me a little. On the one hand, the consensus seems to be "nah, buying content from a cam girl poses no greater risk than buying content or goods from anyone else. PayPal are in the wrong". But on the other, the consensus also seems to be "you shouldn't buy content from a cam girl before you know you can trust them and if you do, you only have yourself to blame because not every model can be trusted".

I completely agree with getting to know a model before buying content from them. Buyer beware and all that. But if we accept this as the sensible thing to do, do we not also have to accept that the reasons for this being the sensible thing to do are the very same reasons for PayPal not wanting to work with individual cam girls?

Yes, I agree that's probably what led Paypal to not want to work with adult transactions, but I read the consensus to be "if you're doing this many chargebacks, you're doing something wrong." I've purchased or won in raffles lots of content over the years and have never had the occasion to apply for a chargeback. I once won a video from a model on SM for being high tipper for a gold show... for some reason, I forgot about it...several months later I get a PM from the same model apologizing profusely and sending me a link to the content. Very happily surprised. She too had forgotten.

 

[AmberCutie]

This thread is starting to confuse me a little. On the one hand, the consensus seems to be "nah, buying content from a cam girl poses no greater risk than buying content or goods from anyone else. PayPal are in the wrong". But on the other, the consensus also seems to be "you shouldn't buy content from a cam girl before you know you can trust them and if you do, you only have yourself to blame because not every model can be trusted".

I completely agree with getting to know a model before buying content from them. Buyer beware and all that. But if we accept this as the sensible thing to do, do we not also have to accept that the reasons for this being the sensible thing to do are the very same reasons for PayPal not wanting to work with individual cam girls?

Yeah, if there was a "happy medium" as people call it, maybe PP wouldn't be such a problem.

There are scammy cam girls

There are scammy users who chargeback stuff unnecessarily or abuse the system for sake of ease (which srsly seems to be the case in this thread)

If neither of these existed, PP (and many other CC processors) would likely not have a problem working with adult industries.

It's a little bit of both, methinks.

The way it should operate in my opinion: PP should allow transactions from ANY community of users, but if a particular user has an unreasonable amount of chargebacks, they should be terminated. Both on the receiver and payer end.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

And that's the epiphany I had. Paypal, Google, Amazon, they don't hate cam girls, they hate customers like me. And I have no doubt that they knew long ago that cam girls equal more fraud than they want to deal with. So I think we can safely stop saying that paypal is discriminating against cam girls. They're just trying to protect themselves and their customers.

Being scammed is a risk you choose to take. There are so many other ways to purchase videos, or just purchase videos from people you trust. You actively sought out models who took paypal, that's strange to me as it is. Most camgirls who know what they're doing don't even respond to guys who mention paypal. It sucks to not get what you paid for but that's why you should be careful.

Also, I had all my money in my paypal account taken for my email address accidentally getting linked to an adult site where I was clearly the performer so yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just douchebags. It would be one thing to look at high risk accounts more carefully but just one little thing and they freeze everything, that's probably just laziness that thanks to discrimination they are able to get away with. You're the one doing all these chargebacks and costing them time and money, they should be discriminating against you.

 

[yummybrownfox]

Being scammed is a risk you choose to take. There are so many other ways to purchase videos, or just purchase videos from people you trust. You actively sought out models who took paypal, that's strange to me as it is. Most camgirls who know what they're doing don't even respond to guys who mention paypal. It sucks to not get what you paid for but that's why you should be careful.

This.

Even now with what we know about PayPal, there are still members who are unwaivering on the whole "I'll pay you with PayPal" thing. I know that some of them are just trying to get over on the model, and then I think some of them just don't get it (after it's been explained to them why it's a bad idea) because they've "done it lots of times with no problems."

Even today, I've had a few guys message me on Skype, wanting to pay with PayPal instead of just going through SkyPrivate, and that's always a bummer. But I'm not about to start breaking site rules (plus risk screwing myself over in the process) just to make some quick money.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Being scammed is a risk you choose to take. There are so many other ways to purchase videos, or just purchase videos from people you trust. You actively sought out models who took paypal, that's strange to me as it is. Most camgirls who know what they're doing don't even respond to guys who mention paypal. It sucks to not get what you paid for but that's why you should be careful.

Also, I had all my money in my paypal account taken for my email address accidentally getting linked to an adult site where I was clearly the performer so yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just douchebags. It would be one thing to look at high risk accounts more carefully but just one little thing and they freeze everything, that's probably just laziness that thanks to discrimination they are able to get away with. You're the one doing all these chargebacks and costing them time and money, they should be discriminating against you.

The model has a high tip prize for the month. I win the high tip, prize doesn't come after one and then three months, despite weekly or so reminders. Model's mostly moved on from MFC so I let the matter drop. Now prior to winning, I had bought videos from the models and four skype shows and she was actually much better than most about scheduling and showing up for skype show. So my mistake was what making a high tip?
Now if I had the option to purchase with Paypal I would have reversed the charge, but if I did this too much, it suddenly is my fault?!?.
I wish this was an isolated incident. Over the last 4.5 years I've purchased or won more than 100 things (beside videos) custom videos, cookies, pre-released videos, panties, skype shows, thumb drives with content etc. from about 30 models. I've paid mostly with tokens but also with Giftrocket, Snapcash, Amazon cards, PayPal (twice) etc. I can count on one hand the number of models (3 on ACF) who have managed to always give me the content I paid for within a month of it being promised or paid for. Now if I extend the timeframe for 3 months then the vast majority of models eventually give me what I pay for. Still about 10-15% of the time, I get nothing, one model refunded my tokens and few other times I've complained to MFC and got a refund, most of us the time I just chalk it up camgirls being camgirls, and I've decided life is too short to make a big deal about it. But in a world of Amazon Prime and streaming, 3 months is way too long, it's awful customer service.
In talking to models about why they are so bad about hitting deadlines most say something to the effect that once, they have the money in hands it's hard to get motivated to complete the project. They aren't deliberately attempting to screw people, but more like shit happens and completing the deliverable gets to be a low priority.
Paypal has a very good reputation of acting as a fair agent between buyers and sellers for almost 200 million people. The fact they ban sex stuff, says way more about the dependability of the average sex worker than PayPal, IMO.

 

[Gen]

Paypal has a very good reputation of acting as a fair agent between buyers and sellers for almost 200 million people. The fact they ban sex stuff, says way more about the dependability of the average sex worker than PayPal, IMO.

But it's not an equal transaction if they automatically side with one party because the other is using their account for receiving adult payments. If PayPal is unwilling to allow sex workers to receive money, and will automatically shut down their accounts, we don't have the same recourse as an Etsy seller or an eBay user.

They intentionally choose NOT to act as a fair agent in this industry, which is their prerogative, but that doesn't say anything about the "average sex worker" because there's no way for any sex worker to safely and within-the-rules use PayPal.

It's apples and oranges, really, unless or until PayPal works with a site to make some sort of etsy-for-porn and offers the same protection to buyers *and* sellers that they do for other services.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

But it's not an equal transaction if they automatically side with one party because the other is using their account for receiving adult payments. If PayPal is unwilling to allow sex workers to receive money, and will automatically shut down their accounts, we don't have the same recourse as an Etsy seller or an eBay user.

They intentionally choose NOT to act as a fair agent in this industry, which is their prerogative, but that doesn't say anything about the "average sex worker" because there's no way for any sex worker to safely and within-the-rules use PayPal.

It's apples and oranges, really, unless or until PayPal works with a site to make some sort of etsy-for-porn and offers the same protection to buyers *and* sellers that they do for other services.

Fair point, although PayPal offers a buyers protection so generally speaking they side with the buyer. The sellers protection is in large part not doing business with buyers with a poor reputation. It is certainly a chicken and egg today and don't see it changing anytime soon. My point is PayPal shouldn't change based on the behavior that I've seen in the industry.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

@HiGirlsRHot I'm sorry that's been your experience and I remember that thread and how strange it was. Girls saying they couldn't find the motivation to complete custom videos, I found it so unprofessional. I'm not saying tough shit to members, I'm saying you need to understand and accept how MFC and tokens work if you want to use it. If buying videos there isn't worth the risk to you then buy them elsewhere. If you're not happy with a models customer service then start visiting someone else. There are options to buy most mfc models content with 100% protection so I do see little point in complaining about that specifically. I personally don't care if PayPal changes, it was a member who started this thread. It'd be nice if they payed people before closing accounts but hey.

 

[Booty_4U]

Back in the early 00's I got ripped off 3 times in about 5 years (two were via ebay & I got my money back, one was via a seller on LiveJournal & I don't recall getting the money back for that one), and PayPal didn't have any issues with my account. (Also during that time I think I had one "claim" against me, but the person eventually got their non-nsfw item in the mail & the claim was closed.) Then in 2006, I put a PayPal "donate" button on my nsfw website. My account was frozen/banned within a few days ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[weirdbr]

Now prior to winning, I had bought videos from the models and four skype shows and she was actually much better than most about scheduling and showing up for skype show. So my mistake was what making a high tip?

Nope, it sounds like someone that was previously reliable suddenly became unreliable for whatever reason, which can happen in the cam world just like it can happen in any other type of business (I've had it happen several times with computer part suppliers for some reason).

And while we're on the anecdata side of things, I can say that I've tipped a large number of models and so far the incidents of not getting what I paid for are extremely rare: I can remember only 5 incidents, including those that can be blamed on external entities like postal service. If we exclude those and stay in the realm of digital-only goods, it goes down to 3 incidents and in all of those cases I blame myself, as it involved models I didn't fully assess/vet ahead of time (and this sort of assessment is something I do for other businesses as well) and there were big red flags I would had seen if I had used my brain instead of letting the hormones do the talking.

The fact they ban sex stuff, says way more about the dependability of the average sex worker than PayPal, IMO.

Not necessarily, as everyone else has pointed out - it's primarily to reduce their costs due to chargebacks and we dont have good data on the reason of chargebacks (anectada from the model side does seem to indicate it's primarily scammers) . But we also need to be aware that there are companies that flat out refuse to make a profit from adult content/sex work - I've been in way too many "all hands" meetings at my workplace where VPs and the CEO/founder stated in no uncertain terms that the company will never support adult content as they are morally objected to it, even though they are aware it is potentially a multi-billion dollar business sector.

 

[MFCuser]

whatever the reason is, processing credit cards for adult services results in many more charge backs than for every day services. What it comes down to is how much the credit card processor charges for their services. Processors that handle adult work charge significantly more to process credit cards than processors who handle other transactions because the risk is much greater. Pay pal doesnt charge enough to compensate for the risk because they want to be competitive with other processors who handle more normal transactions, I see no problem with them terminating accounts that use it for adult material.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Nope, it sounds like someone that was previously reliable suddenly became unreliable for whatever reason, which can happen in the cam world just like it can happen in any other type of business (I've had it happen several times with computer part suppliers for some reason).

And while we're on the anecdata side of things, I can say that I've tipped a large number of models and so far the incidents of not getting what I paid for are extremely rare: I can remember only 5 incidents, including those that can be blamed on external entities like postal service. If we exclude those and stay in the realm of digital-only goods, it goes down to 3 incidents and in all of those cases I blame myself, as it involved models I didn't fully assess/vet ahead of time (and this sort of assessment is something I do for other businesses as well) and there were big red flags I would had seen if I had used my brain instead of letting the hormones do the talking.
.

Is 5 out 50 custom things you order or 5 out 5 hundred? I'm excluding videos that they've been selling. Of those five how many did you get a refund from? Can you remember five incident of stuff that you bought online from a place like Amazon or your computer parts suppliers that it took more than a month to get the product? how about 3 months? Didn't all of those companies give you your money back?. For those suppliers that become unreliable did you blame yourself for not being more careful or the supplier?
I'm not saying, I don't eventually get I what I paid for from most camgirls. I'm saying the service, reliability, refund policy etc. is so bad compared to other business, that I don't find anything unusual in the OP have 10 chargebacks in 65 purchases.

 

[EspiKvlt]

Yes, I often have that same problem with sites like Amazon. It once took me five months to get a laptop.

 

[weirdbr]

Is 5 out 50 custom things you order or 5 out 5 hundred? I'm excluding videos that they've been selling. Of those five how many did you get a refund from? Can you remember five incident of stuff that you bought online from a place like Amazon or your computer parts suppliers that it took more than a month to get the product? how about 3 months? Didn't all of those companies give you your money back?. For those suppliers that become unreliable did you blame yourself for not being more careful or the supplier?

5 out of hundred or so - I am not much into custom things, but usually I have issues with deals, mailed items or preorders.

And I can remember plenty of incidents with other non-adult companies where I had issues getting the products ordered; most of the time it's hard to get the money back thanks to lack of good consumer protection laws in Switzerland: I could do a chargeback, but then they can put me on the national list of bad payments, which can screw me over when trying to rent a place to live. Usually all I could do was nag them like crazy until I got the item, sometimes 3 to 6 months later. Same when I lived in Brazil, which has considerably better consumer protection laws (since the companies take advantage of all the time afforded them by law to act on complaints).

And for the case of suppliers that go from good to unreliable, there's nothing you can blame yourself for, unless there were clear signs that you missed (for example, shifting delivery dates/conditions before the order is placed), but rarely this is the case - usually it just happens that you trust them and place the order based on existing negotiation/terms and suddenly they become problematic.

 

[SaffronBurke]

One of the reasons why chargebacks are so high in the adult industry is due to a husband or son "borrowing" their wife or mother's card, or maybe using a joint account in the case of spouses, to purchase porn, then the woman sees the statement and claims the transaction as fraudulent. This happens with PayPal accounts, as well, and lends to the attitude that payment processors have of not wanting to work with the industry. It's not the sole cause, but is a contributing factor.

 

[Guy]

One of the reasons why chargebacks are so high in the adult industry is due to a husband or son "borrowing" their wife or mother's card, or maybe using a joint account in the case of spouses, to purchase porn, then the woman sees the statement and claims the transaction as fraudulent. This happens with PayPal accounts, as well, and lends to the attitude that payment processors have of not wanting to work with the industry. It's not the sole cause, but is a contributing factor.

I heard it was because of porn addicts overspending and wanting to get the money back.

 

[SaffronBurke]

I heard it was because of porn addicts overspending and wanting to get the money back.

That's likely a contributing factor as well.

 

[Zoomer]

I should reinforce the point - nothing in what i've said is about cam girls or anything else. I am, as ever, sympathetic towards people paying for a service and not receiving it. That's not good.

What I am pointing out is that you're using Paypal - not as a payment processor - but as insurance. That's not what it's about. Sure, there are distance selling regulations and other laws (in the UK at least) which means you should be able to get money back.

This is all about Paypal turning around and saying "You seem to do a heck of a lot or charge backs".

Now I'm not being accusatory, but how do you think fraudulent accounts appear? Chargebacks have, near enough, no challenges from small producers. So therefore there's nothing preventing someone abusing this feature to get free stuff and claim they shouldn't.

How do they recognise people using charge back fraudulently?

Why they look at the average number of charge backs. They have outliers, but when some outliers are way out of the statistical bounds, then it indicates potential fraud.

That's basically what they've flagged up. You're a shit customer because it probably appears, to them, that this pattern is consistent with fraud and someone abusing a system to get free through claiming charge backs. Your activity has been highlighted.

BTW most banks have detection for fraud / illegal transactions; things out of the ordinary (it's part of anti money laundering regulations in the UK).

Paypal find your behaviour suspicious. That's it. Nothing about models, their reliability, they find your behaviour suspicious.