I don't get it ?

[JimsX]

I have to add, I really enjoy premium videos given as prizes for various things, like high tipper for a show, or even "everyone who tips at least [x] for this show gets a video." My only annoyance is when a model does one of these variations then when you win, she claims things that show she really wasn't prepared to give away videos.

This has happened several times on SM. Once, the model PM'd me a day later and claimed, "there's a bug in SM's software that won't let me send out videos, how about if I give you a month of Snapchat instead?" Another model claimed I have to have a gmail email address to get her video. Very strange indeed.

Somewhat similar incident happened to me. Model wanted 203 tokens to complete her daily goal and offered a skype show to whoever tipped it. I did and we agreed to do the show the next day.

Next day I pmed her and she said "oh that offer expired. You didn't really expect me to do a skype show so cheap did you?"

Well yes, yes I did, since you said that in public chat.

 

[JimsX]

This one may be just be me, but I do not get the appeal of toys ... I mean watching girls use them. I do understand that they help girls get off and that is kinda the point of private shows much of the time, but they are a complete turn off for me. I always ask models for fingers only in privates. Plastic does nothing for me

 

[hapa74]

This one may be just be me, but I do not get the appeal of toys ... I mean watching girls use them. I do understand that they help girls get off and that is kinda the point of private shows much of the time, but they are a complete turn off for me. I always ask models for fingers only in privates. Plastic does nothing for me

Just like everything else, different strokes for different folks. Though I do know that some ladies find toys necessary to "get off", fingers don't do the job for everyone. Just my :twocents-02cents:

 

[Rose]

This one may be just be me, but I do not get the appeal of toys ... I mean watching girls use them. I do understand that they help girls get off and that is kinda the point of private shows much of the time, but they are a complete turn off for me. I always ask models for fingers only in privates. Plastic does nothing for me

Just like everything else, different strokes for different folks. Though I do know that some ladies find toys necessary to "get off", fingers don't do the job for everyone. Just my :twocents-02cents:

Personally, I'd much rather use a toy and be done in 15-20 minutes than use my hands, and maybe get off in an hour if I'm lucky..... Not sure about you, but waiting over an hour, having my hands cramp up and ache until I can't move them, and hoping for an orgasm really sucks. :icon-cry:

Can't forget things like arthritis and carpel tunnel too. Just saying.

 

[JimsX]

Personally, I'd much rather use a toy and be done in 15-20 minutes than use my hands, and maybe get off in an hour if I'm lucky..... Not sure about you, but waiting over an hour, having my hands cramp up and ache until I can't move them, and hoping for an orgasm really sucks. :icon-cry:

Can't forget things like arthritis and carpel tunnel too. Just saying.

Ha ha, yeah I do see your and Hapa's point. I am fortunate to have found a couple models that can go without toys, and there are some that I don't mind, because I find them so attractive.

Edit: I guess I should not say I HATE toys. Just prefer if the model can go without. I won't run away and hide if a sexy woman needs one

 

[Rose]

Personally, I'd much rather use a toy and be done in 15-20 minutes than use my hands, and maybe get off in an hour if I'm lucky..... Not sure about you, but waiting over an hour, having my hands cramp up and ache until I can't move them, and hoping for an orgasm really sucks. :icon-cry:

Can't forget things like arthritis and carpel tunnel too. Just saying.

Ha ha, yeah I do see your and Hapa's point. I am fortunate to have found a couple models that can go without toys, and there are some that I don't mind, because I find them so attractive.

Edit: I guess I should not say I HATE toys. Just prefer if the model can go without. I won't run away and hide if a sexy woman needs one

Maybe you just haven't found the right toy. :twocents-02cents:

My past experience working in an adult boutique has taught me that lots of people hate, or strongly dislike toys, until they find the right one for them. Since the visual aspect is such a turn off for you, I'd recommend a small bullet or something equally 'discreet' and compact. They are incredibly tiny and if held right, completely hidden by the fingers. It might be a decent compromise for the future so that all parties involved are happy. I'm speaking from past experience on all of this, haha.

 

[JimsX]

Maybe you just haven't found the right toy. :twocents-02cents:

My past experience working in an adult boutique has taught me that lots of people hate, or strongly dislike toys, until they find the right one for them. Since the visual aspect is such a turn off for you, I'd recommend a small bullet or something equally 'discreet' and compact. They are incredibly tiny and if held right, completely hidden by the fingers. It might be a decent compromise for the future so that all parties involved are happy. I'm speaking from past experience on all of this, haha.

I think I need to talk to my favourite models now :lol:

 

[wjr3]

This one may be just be me, but I do not get the appeal of toys ... I mean watching girls use them. I do understand that they help girls get off and that is kinda the point of private shows much of the time, but they are a complete turn off for me. I always ask models for fingers only in privates. Plastic does nothing for me

Just like everything else, different strokes for different folks. Though I do know that some ladies find toys necessary to "get off", fingers don't do the job for everyone. Just my :twocents-02cents:

Personally, I'd much rather use a toy and be done in 15-20 minutes than use my hands, and maybe get off in an hour if I'm lucky..... Not sure about you, but waiting over an hour, having my hands cramp up and ache until I can't move them, and hoping for an orgasm really sucks. :icon-cry:

Can't forget things like arthritis and carpel tunnel too. Just saying.

There's also the "Beautiful Agony" approach which shows only face during orgasm. I could care less what's happening down below, other than the fact that the woman is having a pleasurable experience. The typical spread-eagle pussy shot is sooooo boring to me, whether it involves toys or fingers.

 

[PinkiePixi]

I am consistently amazed by how many guys will join a cheap gold show on SM without reading what the show is. I regularly do $1 buy in 8 minute long shows, the description is, "Lets get weird and naked and drunk and hang out! NOT SEXUAL! Tip for requests in show!" I say out loud MANY times what to expect in the show - and every single damn time at least one person joins (usually more than one) and then proceeds to get angry because Im not fucking/fisting/masturbating/squirting/etc. And I always get plenty of guys who sit there and demand I do things without tipping. Like srsly guys? You paid $1 for 8 mins and you genuinely thought you were going to get a crazy explicit show and you get to call the shots? :lol:

Same with the guys who get naggy about free videos. Really? Youre pledging for a $5/7m cumshow, and the deal breaker is what the FREE video is? And the guys who think they can pick their free video. LOL YEAH NOPE. You are not going to get my most expensive, longest, and nicest video for a $5 pledge. Nice try. Annnnd the guys who think that if they just pledge for a ton of my shows that offer a free video, theyll be able to see a bunch of sexy shows and collect all of my videos at the same time. Effectively seeing 20 gold shows and getting all 20 of my vids for $100 (I sell the package for $130). Lol naw. It doesnt work that way.

Seriously. If these guys took one minute to read and pay attention, or ask me about things instead of assuming - it would be a lot easier for both them and me, and I wouldnt have to deal with idiots.

 

[Nordling]

I am consistently amazed by how many guys will join a cheap gold show on SM without reading what the show is. I regularly do $1 buy in 8 minute long shows, the description is, "Lets get weird and naked and drunk and hang out! NOT SEXUAL! Tip for requests in show!" I say out loud MANY times what to expect in the show - and every single damn time at least one person joins (usually more than one) and then proceeds to get angry because Im not fucking/fisting/masturbating/squirting/etc. And I always get plenty of guys who sit there and demand I do things without tipping. Like srsly guys? You paid $1 for 8 mins and you genuinely thought you were going to get a crazy explicit show and you get to call the shots? :lol:

Same with the guys who get naggy about free videos. Really? Youre pledging for a $5/7m cumshow, and the deal breaker is what the FREE video is? And the guys who think they can pick their free video. LOL YEAH NOPE. You are not going to get my most expensive, longest, and nicest video for a $5 pledge. Nice try. Annnnd the guys who think that if they just pledge for a ton of my shows that offer a free video, theyll be able to see a bunch of sexy shows and collect all of my videos at the same time. Effectively seeing 20 gold shows and getting all 20 of my vids for $100 (I sell the package for $130). Lol naw. It doesnt work that way.

Seriously. If these guys took one minute to read and pay attention, or ask me about things instead of assuming - it would be a lot easier for both them and me, and I wouldnt have to deal with idiots.

I understand your reasoning on the last part, but I can also see why a member might see it otherwise. Unless you say you only give out one specific video as a pledge-in premium, so they'd just get the same one over and over, I would think it's natural for them to think a new video for each show was being offered.

 

[PinkiePixi]

I am consistently amazed by how many guys will join a cheap gold show on SM without reading what the show is. I regularly do $1 buy in 8 minute long shows, the description is, "Lets get weird and naked and drunk and hang out! NOT SEXUAL! Tip for requests in show!" I say out loud MANY times what to expect in the show - and every single damn time at least one person joins (usually more than one) and then proceeds to get angry because Im not fucking/fisting/masturbating/squirting/etc. And I always get plenty of guys who sit there and demand I do things without tipping. Like srsly guys? You paid $1 for 8 mins and you genuinely thought you were going to get a crazy explicit show and you get to call the shots? :lol:

Same with the guys who get naggy about free videos. Really? Youre pledging for a $5/7m cumshow, and the deal breaker is what the FREE video is? And the guys who think they can pick their free video. LOL YEAH NOPE. You are not going to get my most expensive, longest, and nicest video for a $5 pledge. Nice try. Annnnd the guys who think that if they just pledge for a ton of my shows that offer a free video, theyll be able to see a bunch of sexy shows and collect all of my videos at the same time. Effectively seeing 20 gold shows and getting all 20 of my vids for $100 (I sell the package for $130). Lol naw. It doesnt work that way.

Seriously. If these guys took one minute to read and pay attention, or ask me about things instead of assuming - it would be a lot easier for both them and me, and I wouldnt have to deal with idiots.

I understand your reasoning on the last part, but I can also see why a member might see it otherwise. Unless you say you only give out one specific video as a pledge-in premium, so they'd just get the same one over and over, I would think it's natural for them to think a new video for each show was being offered.

Well if they ask I tell them that its the same video, and during every single countdown I always say what the free video is multiple times - and if theyre paying any sort of attention, theyll hear that its the same video they already have. I would understand giving away multiple different free videos if my videos were just recorded camshows that didnt take me much extra effort to make/send out. But all of my videos are HD non-camshow vids (the same ones I sell on MFC), and I sell all of them except two for $10-$30 each on MFC. So any of the packages are already a phenomenal deal. Most girls who offer free vids for pledges are giving away recorded camshows. Im working on getting a bunch of those set up so I can have additional freebies to offer. But for the time being, Im not about to give out my premium quality videos en masse for $5 each - I just could not feel good about myself if I did that.

 

[GoddessAiren]

Some models price their videos quite high to discourage people buying them and then uploading them elsewhere.

Less chance of people uploading it for a bunch of freeloaders if they spent a buttload of cash on it.

Weird strategy, not sure if spending a buttload equals less chance of it being uploaded. Could make it more likely to get uploaded. Have these models/or any here that do this have it work for them?

I generally charge more for my regular videos than most girls do and my custom rates is $10+/minute (depending on the request). The only pirated videos I have found online are the ones that I have shot with a popular Femdom website, never any of my independent stuff from my Clips4Sale stores (thank you internet :romance-heartsmiley. I charge an amount that I feel not only reflects the quality of my videos but compensates me for the time and effort it takes to make them. Also, you have to keep in mind that when you buy a video from a website like C4S or MFC us models only make a percentage of that amount so I also take that into consideration as well.

Honestly, I think most girls don't charge enough for their videos. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Leon_Omega]

Seriously. If these guys took one minute to read and pay attention, or ask me about things instead of assuming - it would be a lot easier for both them and me, and I wouldnt have to deal with idiots.

If only...

It reminds me of a show I saw last year on the 4th of July. The model had the entire theme going on: Union Jack dress (or shirt long enough to funcion as one) over a Stars and Stripes Bikini with a topic for 1776 tokens saying "Help! Save me from this oppressive flag!"

And in spite of all this, half the guys coming into the room told her off for wearing a Union JAck on the 4th of July, some even managed to come up with the idea that she was glorifying it...

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

I also find the tip for the model to drink thing kind of strange. Yeah, it probably does generate some extra tips, but it doesn't seem the same as buying someone a drink at a bar. I have tipped for it on that theory, but it didn't really seem that way. If it doesn't get abused, it's harmless enough, I suppose.
It does seem like sometimes models end up getting drunker than is a good idea on cam this way though. I like the "having a few drinks with friends" feel, but I'd rather the model just have a few at her own pace (which many models do) while she chats or does whatever else she does. And yes, I am willing to tip for that (well really just for the enjoyable time, but that would apply here).

Another thing that always boggles my mind is when models set topics like "Tip 12 if you think I'm cute, 120 if you like me, 1200 if you love me." Are guys just more likely to tip if you tell them a specific number? Would I get scolded for not following the rules if I tipped 50?

 

[Falke]

Another thing that always boggles my mind is when models set topics like "Tip 12 if you think I'm cute, 120 if you like me, 1200 if you love me." Are guys just more likely to tip if you tell them a specific number? Would I get scolded for not following the rules if I tipped 50?

I've been in different rooms with models who have that in their topic. I've never seen them behave in any way that suggests that they expect tips in those amounts at the exclusion of other tip amounts. My sense is that it's partly an attempt to remind people that they should tip if they enjoy chat and partly an attempt to get a few extra tokens here and there. If someone is going to tip 10, maybe he'll go ahead and tip 12 since it doesn't seem like such a big difference and the suggestion is there from the topic.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Another thing that always boggles my mind is when models set topics like "Tip 12 if you think I'm cute, 120 if you like me, 1200 if you love me." Are guys just more likely to tip if you tell them a specific number? Would I get scolded for not following the rules if I tipped 50?

I do this, haha. It's just a way to remind people to tip without being in your face about it & it gives people that are just looking for a reason to tip something to tip for.

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

Another thing that always boggles my mind is when models set topics like "Tip 12 if you think I'm cute, 120 if you like me, 1200 if you love me." Are guys just more likely to tip if you tell them a specific number? Would I get scolded for not following the rules if I tipped 50?

I've been in different rooms with models who have that in their topic. I've never seen them behave in any way that suggests that they expect tips in those amounts at the exclusion of other tip amounts. My sense is that it's partly an attempt to remind people that they should tip if they enjoy chat and partly an attempt to get a few extra tokens here and there. If someone is going to tip 10, maybe he'll go ahead and tip 12 since it doesn't seem like such a big difference and the suggestion is there from the topic.

Hmm. Okay. I just picked the 12 arbitrarily though. It's not always a bit more than a round number. Sometimes it's a bit less or just a round number. I guess it could be a reminder to tip, although the usual "Tip if you enjoy" is less confusing IMO.

 

[Falke]

Another thing that always boggles my mind is when models set topics like "Tip 12 if you think I'm cute, 120 if you like me, 1200 if you love me." Are guys just more likely to tip if you tell them a specific number? Would I get scolded for not following the rules if I tipped 50?

I've been in different rooms with models who have that in their topic. I've never seen them behave in any way that suggests that they expect tips in those amounts at the exclusion of other tip amounts. My sense is that it's partly an attempt to remind people that they should tip if they enjoy chat and partly an attempt to get a few extra tokens here and there. If someone is going to tip 10, maybe he'll go ahead and tip 12 since it doesn't seem like such a big difference and the suggestion is there from the topic.

Hmm. Okay. I just picked the 12 arbitrarily though. It's not always a bit more than a round number. Sometimes it's a bit less or just a round number. I guess it could be a reminder to tip, although the usual "Tip if you enjoy" is less confusing IMO.

Yeah, I can see why it would be confusing. I'm not sure that there is always real reason for the number that the model chooses (though some do have favorite numbers). One night it might be 1/11/111/1111, another it might be 8/88/888/8888, and another it might be 2/28/282/2828. My guess is that the bigger "if you love me" numbers are usually a bit tongue-in-cheek, but a model can always hope that it happens. Only needs to happen once for her to decide that it's worth the extra characters in the topic.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I charge ~$8/minute for custom requests depending on the difficulty, and so far I've never had any caps anywhere. Not videos, not live shows. It could just be because I haven't looked in the right places or that I'm blind, but I'd like to think it's because people are too afraid I'd rip them a new asshole and start charging triple. :whistle:

I generally charge more for my regular videos than most girls do and my custom rates is $10+/minute (depending on the request). The only pirated videos I have found online are the ones that I have shot with a popular Femdom website, never any of my independent stuff from my Clips4Sale stores (thank you internet :romance-heartsmiley. I charge an amount that I feel not only reflects the quality of my videos but compensates me for the time and effort it takes to make them. Also, you have to keep in mind that when you buy a video from a website like C4S or MFC us models only make a percentage of that amount so I also take that into consideration as well.

Honestly, I think most girls don't charge enough for their videos. :twocents-02cents:

Appreciate the info. Sounds like you both price videos highly because that is what you feel is worth it and not in an attempt to keep people from uploading tho. Pricing them highly to make them feel exclusive also makes perfect sense. Pricing them highly in an attempt to keep them from getting uploaded still seems like a bad idea, might make less and pricing doesn't really mean anything, less people having the video doesn't necessarily mean less chance of someone uploading it. Could mean more freeloaders are going to request the video if it's seen as rare. Who knows tho, would be a hard thing to get a sure answer on.

 

[LilyEvans]

I have definitely seen evidence of videos that go on sale suddenly uploaded to lots of places when they previously had not been. It also seems that models who offer videos very cheaply (10 videos for 200 tokens) have way more shared content of them-- excluding capped shows, of course-- than models with more expensive videos (200 or even 100 tokens per video.)

Of course this is in general, there are always exceptions to the rule, but this has been what I have noticed when searching for pirated videos.

 

[Rose]

I charge ~$8/minute for custom requests depending on the difficulty, and so far I've never had any caps anywhere. Not videos, not live shows. It could just be because I haven't looked in the right places or that I'm blind, but I'd like to think it's because people are too afraid I'd rip them a new asshole and start charging triple. :whistle:

I generally charge more for my regular videos than most girls do and my custom rates is $10+/minute (depending on the request). The only pirated videos I have found online are the ones that I have shot with a popular Femdom website, never any of my independent stuff from my Clips4Sale stores (thank you internet :romance-heartsmiley. I charge an amount that I feel not only reflects the quality of my videos but compensates me for the time and effort it takes to make them. Also, you have to keep in mind that when you buy a video from a website like C4S or MFC us models only make a percentage of that amount so I also take that into consideration as well.

Honestly, I think most girls don't charge enough for their videos. :twocents-02cents:

Appreciate the info. Sounds like you both price videos highly because that is what you feel is worth it and not in an attempt to keep people from uploading tho. Pricing them highly to make them feel exclusive also makes perfect sense. Pricing them highly in an attempt to keep them from getting uploaded still seems like a bad idea, might make less and pricing doesn't really mean anything, less people having the video doesn't necessarily mean less chance of someone uploading it. Could mean more freeloaders are going to request the video if it's seen as rare. Who knows tho, would be a hard thing to get a sure answer on.

I don't price my videos to deter cappers. Simply what I think is a reasonable price for my time.

 

[mickerd]

I've seen members pay 100-200 usd per minute for custom videos before on mfc, it's a seller's market & you are worth as much as you can get, period. It seems pointless to worry about what other people can afford to spend or what others are willing to do in turn.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I have definitely seen evidence of videos that go on sale suddenly uploaded to lots of places when they previously had not been. It also seems that models who offer videos very cheaply (10 videos for 200 tokens) have way more shared content of them-- excluding capped shows, of course-- than models with more expensive videos (200 or even 100 tokens per video.)

Of course this is in general, there are always exceptions to the rule, but this has been what I have noticed when searching for pirated videos.

Really I see the opposite. The 10 videos for 200 tokens deals I seldom see uploaded, while the 200-500 tokens per video I see all the time. I'd post a link but those tend to be frown on for understandable reasons.

 

[ComicOzzie]

I don't get the idea of writing tippers' names on the body of the model. To me, its taking something beautiful and defacing it. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Leon_Omega]

Pricing them highly in an attempt to keep them from getting uploaded still seems like a bad idea, might make less and pricing doesn't really mean anything, less people having the video doesn't necessarily mean less chance of someone uploading it. Could mean more freeloaders are going to request the video if it's seen as rare. Who knows tho, would be a hard thing to get a sure answer on.

The main reason I brought it up was because I've heard several models mention it as the reason for their higher price point.

In the end, though, it's up to the model to set her prices as high as she wants to. She put in the work (and a shocking amount of people actually underestimate just how much work goes into making a video) and there is nothing gained by undervaluing your labor.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Pricing them highly in an attempt to keep them from getting uploaded still seems like a bad idea, might make less and pricing doesn't really mean anything, less people having the video doesn't necessarily mean less chance of someone uploading it. Could mean more freeloaders are going to request the video if it's seen as rare. Who knows tho, would be a hard thing to get a sure answer on.

The main reason I brought it up was because I've heard several models mention it as the reason for their higher price point.

In the end, though, it's up to the model to set her prices as high as she wants to. She put in the work (and a shocking amount of people actually underestimate just how much work goes into making a video) and there is nothing gained by undervaluing your labor.

I think models are often afraid to actually say "this is what I feel I'm worth" as well. Many members look down on models who value themselves at a higher rate than the standard token prices... so the capping may just be the partial reason she's putting in place of the real reason in order to answer when people ask without making half the room say "uppity bitch"...

Which happens a lot.

We are in a very personal industry and a model shouldn't accept less than she feels her time and effort is worth... even if that means you can't afford it.

It should be either available at a price she feels good about or not available at all.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I think models are often afraid to actually say "this is what I feel I'm worth" as well. Many members look down on models who value themselves at a higher rate than the standard token prices... so the capping may just be the partial reason she's putting in place of the real reason in order to answer when people ask without making half the room say "uppity bitch"...

Which happens a lot.

We are in a very personal industry and a model shouldn't accept less than she feels her time and effort is worth... even if that means you can't afford it.

It should be either available at a price she feels good about or not available at all.

Just so were clear here, I'm not trying to say models shouldn't be pricing videos highly. I wouldn't be deterred by a high price(probably wouldn't pay 200 bucks a minute like dude mentioned but thankfully I've never seen this) or think she is a uppity bitch. Was just thrown off by the idea of models pricing videos around what uploaders might do. Seems like they would be setting themselves up to be disappointed. I sometimes forget cappers and uploaders even exist and forget how much some models hate them.

 

[JoleneBrody]

I think models are often afraid to actually say "this is what I feel I'm worth" as well. Many members look down on models who value themselves at a higher rate than the standard token prices... so the capping may just be the partial reason she's putting in place of the real reason in order to answer when people ask without making half the room say "uppity bitch"...

Which happens a lot.

We are in a very personal industry and a model shouldn't accept less than she feels her time and effort is worth... even if that means you can't afford it.

It should be either available at a price she feels good about or not available at all.

Just so were clear here, I'm not trying to say models shouldn't be pricing videos highly. I wouldn't be deterred by a high price(probably wouldn't pay 200 bucks a minute like dude mentioned but thankfully I've never seen this) or think she is a uppity bitch. Was just thrown off by the idea of models pricing videos around what uploaders might do. Seems like they would be setting themselves up to be disappointed. I sometimes forget cappers and uploaders even exist and forget how much some models hate them.

Oh no, I didn't think that of you.
I was just more so wanting to clarify that just because a models says she's only doing it to stop cappers doesn't mean that it's actually true... and she may just be saying that to avoid people calling her greedy...

Because let's face it... that's the only reason people even ask. Nobody questions a models prices in the first place unless the are looking sideways at them, yeah?

 

[PunkInDrublic]

I was just more so wanting to clarify that just because a models says she's only doing it to stop cappers doesn't mean that it's actually true... and she may just be saying that to avoid people calling her greedy...

Gotcha. Might be in the minority but I'd rather her give no reason besides that is what she charges. No reason needed. Saying she prices them high to try to stop piracy would just make me wonder about her thought process. I don't get it I guess. Who cares if someone calls you greedy?

 

[JoleneBrody]

I was just more so wanting to clarify that just because a models says she's only doing it to stop cappers doesn't mean that it's actually true... and she may just be saying that to avoid people calling her greedy...

Gotcha. Might be in the minority but I'd rather her give no reason besides that is what she charges. No reason needed. Saying she prices them high to try to stop piracy would just make me wonder about her thought process. I don't get it I guess. Who cares if someone calls you greedy?

In a business where smiling and feeling good about yourself is necessary for success... I'm guessing a lot of us mind. I'm with you in that an explanation is really not needed but we can tell girls to let things roll off their backs all we want, it wont change the fact that some things will get to us and sometimes it's a good idea to have a coping mechanism in place to avoid it.

Just food for thought. :dontknow: