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Interesting....Petition

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See, we have a product, and that is Providing Men with Orgasms. Without that product, there would really be no large camming industry. So when Can**Ca** does a Lesbian Shower Show and 3000 men watch it and get off, and only 6-10 actively tip and paid for the count in the first place, that means 2990 potential customers just got to cum for free.
This assumes that 2950 of those basics would have spent money in the first place. The 40 premiums might not have even been there. They might tip next time if then enjoy the first show. No facts here, just bad assumptions.

Since there are MANY MANY such shows on MFC each day, this means thousands upon thousands of potential customers are now able to get fully aroused and cum for $0, where in the past they had to pay to see “the good stuff”.
I never had to pay to see the "good stuff" before MFC. It was always free.

This means THOUSANDS of dollars not being spent that used to be spent on women on every camsite on the planet.
Source? Are you sure the industry isn't growing?

Anyone who understands business, understands that giving away the product to thousands for FREE, is not good for business and will eventually lead to lower and lower and lower pay for ALL camgirls, since the supply and demand chain is completely screwed.
Like how all those big super stores and drug companies are going out of business because of free antibiotics? Or how the websites ilovefreethings.com and freecycle are both single handedly responsible for the economic collapse? Again, you assume that a non-paying customer would instantly be a paying customer if other people followed the arbitrary rules. Isn't this sole fact why MFC exists? The oppertunity to see tits for free? Isn't that why the word FREE is right there in the name?

As proof of what I am saying, notice that all the women who have worked cam for YEARS (I am an old broad and worked it WAY back) can tell you that as the sexual content of free chat increased, the money has decreased. Combine this with the in sane influx of cam models caused by a recession, and you get a supply and demand chain that is now SERIOUSLY lopsided.
Being that I've tipped girls to pee on lollipops and then eat it and hundreds laughed their asses off and then we went on to help spread Amber's room all over and she became popular not because of anything other than her own charm. Is the tip total for Miss MFC going up or down? Because if the money is decreasing, the tip total should be going down. By the statements you made, shouldn't you consider market saturation the issue and not sexual content in free chat?

So much so, that Streamate has now added Gold and Tipping and is ignoring their rules more and more to keep up with MFC. And so it is spreading and soon the STANDARD will be free shows, and this is the equivalent, in my honest opinion, of the Tube Sites in the porn world.
So ignoring their rules means less people tipping and spending less money. Which would mean that MFC and Streamate are now making less money. Again, I have to look at market saturation here and less at what's being given away for free.

Secondly, MFC signed a contract with ALL of us, stating there would be a certain environment when we worked. And to make money, many new girls are finding they have to breachthat contract (which lets face it, is absolutely FINE with MFC) to make money or compete.
I haven't read the contract so I couldn't really tell you about that. But I always find it funny that people have to "break the rules to compete" because frankly Amber got all my money BECAUSE she didn't break the rules and BECAUSE she was charming, sweet and cute. If the 150 tokens I spent on getting a girl to piss on cam for /b/ is what you want take it. Others will want to strive for the OVAR 9000!!!! I spent on Amber.

I strongly believe that MFC wrote the contract and rules the way they did specifically to protect themselves and leave cam models out to dry. As if there is ever law enforcement or major lawsuits, MFC has plausible deniability in saying, we made rules, we tried “our best” to enforce them, and the ladies agreed not to do those things and did them as independent contractors. Therefore I think the hammer will come down on MODELS when it comes down, because MFC has set things up just that way.
I agree. What does this have to do with the point though? You're liable for what you do.

Lastly, since MFC is pretty terrible as it comes to minors (they do the netnanny thing, but MOST families don’t have netnanny, most parents suck and don’t supervise their kids, and most kids are latchkey kids now and so we ALL know that kids get on MFC, and every model who has been here a while has had the 13 year old (or whatever) who admits it right out…and I have seen SEVERAL models who ignore it and DON’T ban the person.
I'm 12 and wut is this?

So, free pornographic shows bordering on the legal classification of “Obscene” in Federal law in open chat, and minors present. It’s a bad mix, and even if legally we say it is the responsibility of the parents, we as women who do this job, should not be doing the open free shows that truly are harmful to kids. I believe that most folks would not get TOO up in arms about simple nudity as MFCs rules state…But if it ever hits the courts or media that women are using cucumbers as dildos in front of minors, the shot will hit the fan Hard.
Of course, we already covered that MFC isn't legally responsible. So when it hits press time minors will come signing up wholesale and perverts will too. There is no such thing as bad publicity.
 
Keithy, I am aware of the way this is playing out, but cannot reply like B would...So I hope I can answer some of your well thought out responses with some sort of sense.
Keithy said:
See, we have a product, and that is Providing Men with Orgasms. Without that product, there would really be no large camming industry. So when Can**Ca** does a Lesbian Shower Show and 3000 men watch it and get off, and only 6-10 actively tip and paid for the count in the first place, that means 2990 potential customers just got to cum for free.
This assumes that 2950 of those basics would have spent money in the first place. The 40 premiums might not have even been there. They might tip next time if then enjoy the first show. No facts here, just bad assumptions.

Basics are still potential customers. Potential means, may or may not become, but always COULD. Right?

And what is the drive for them to be customers if the shows are all hardcore and free?

Are you telling me you believe that none of the men on MFC are affected by the breaking of rules? That NONE of those men would tip if NO free cum shows were available in free chat?

I find that naive and you don't seem naive. It obviously affects business to have 50 cumshows filled with mostly freeloaders in any given day. If MFC made the rules be the RULE, you would have thousands of guys who were frustrated because they don't get to see full insertion cum shows for free.

Since there are MANY MANY such shows on MFC each day, this means thousands upon thousands of potential customers are now able to get fully aroused and cum for $0, where in the past they had to pay to see “the good stuff”.
I never had to pay to see the "good stuff" before MFC. It was always free.
What sites allow LIVE cum-shows other than MFC. You cannot compare tubesites, since the very nature of MFC and other cam-sites is the interactive nature. Why do you love Amber as opposed to just watching a porn video? So...I ask again, what Cam sites allow Insertion, Lesbo shows, toy shows, fuck machines, sybians, etc. in FREE Chat with NO registration even necessary?
This means THOUSANDS of dollars not being spent that used to be spent on women on every camsite on the planet.
Source? Are you sure the industry isn't growing?
Well, go to the cam forums and talk to cam girls...I am part of a collective. And we have all seen money drop across the board, even before the recession got started, and it hasn't recovered as other industries do. That is not scientific, it is observational. And what changed is that MFC has gone from casually not enforcing its rules to flagrantly (is that the right word?) just ignoring and stopping all rule enforcement.
Anyone who understands business, understands that giving away the product to thousands for FREE, is not good for business and will eventually lead to lower and lower and lower pay for ALL camgirls, since the supply and demand chain is completely screwed.
Like how all those big super stores and drug companies are going out of business because of free antibiotics? Or how the websites ilovefreethings.com and freecycle are both single handedly responsible for the economic collapse? Again, you assume that a non-paying customer would instantly be a paying customer if other people followed the arbitrary rules. Isn't this sole fact why MFC exists? The oppertunity to see tits for free? Isn't that why the word FREE is right there in the name?

Tits in Free. That is easily within the rules as posted on the MFC Wiki. As is full nudity. None of the girls involved in the petition or any of this talk have ANY problem with nudity in free chat. The rules state "No Insertion, Masturbation, hardcore person to person (as in cunnilingus) and no Zooming in on genitals". In other words NO to all the things kiddies shouldn't see. No to all the things that are generally thought to get men off. No to those in Free. Which is smart business.

As proof of what I am saying, notice that all the women who have worked cam for YEARS (I am an old broad and worked it WAY back) can tell you that as the sexual content of free chat increased, the money has decreased. Combine this with the in sane influx of cam models caused by a recession, and you get a supply and demand chain that is now SERIOUSLY lopsided.
Being that I've tipped girls to pee on lollipops and then eat it and hundreds laughed their asses off and then we went on to help spread Amber's room all over and she became popular not because of anything other than her own charm. Is the tip total for Miss MFC going up or down? Because if the money is decreasing, the tip total should be going down. By the statements you made, shouldn't you consider market saturation the issue and not sexual content in free chat?

Market saturation is definitely an issue. But if you also add in that potential customers are now watching free shows, it doesn't help the situation at all. Guys I used to cam for who tipped (not regulars like you seem to be, but tippers who weren't stingy), got to be less and less of tippers and I'd see them hanging out more and more in the rooms with the dildo show, and NOT tipping, because guys like you, except who wanted a show in free, tipped for them. I have seen it more than once with my own eyes. If they get the private or group show for nothing. Why would they pay?? But if the private show or group show MUST be paid for to see, then guys will either pay, or NOT get "the good stuff".


So much so, that Streamate has now added Gold and Tipping and is ignoring their rules more and more to keep up with MFC. And so it is spreading and soon the STANDARD will be free shows, and this is the equivalent, in my honest opinion, of the Tube Sites in the porn world.
So ignoring their rules means less people tipping and spending less money. Which would mean that MFC and Streamate are now making less money. Again, I have to look at market saturation here and less at what's being given away for free.

[color=#BF0040I cannot believe you honestly believe that it is Good for, say AMBER, that thousands of freeloaders come to MFC and roam around looking for free shows, both slowing down the service and eating bandwidth, and also that Amber, who does this for a living is NOT making less money because there are TONS of guys going to another model's Lesbian Shower show, which is against the rules of MFC. I mean you are a customer, and that equates to you being much more likely to make any excuse for why the free porn should continue. It is Anti-model and Pro-customer. But if you truly care about any camgirl including Amber, I cannot see how you can "NOT see", that giving away the product of camming to thousands is a bad idea.[/color]

Secondly, MFC signed a contract with ALL of us, stating there would be a certain environment when we worked. And to make money, many new girls are finding they have to breachthat contract (which lets face it, is absolutely FINE with MFC) to make money or compete.
I haven't read the contract so I couldn't really tell you about that. But I always find it funny that people have to "break the rules to compete" because frankly Amber got all my money BECAUSE she didn't break the rules and BECAUSE she was charming, sweet and cute. If the 150 tokens I spent on getting a girl to piss on cam for /b/ is what you want take it. Others will want to strive for the OVAR 9000!!!! I spent on Amber.

But that just shows you are an anomaly, the exception and not the rule.

I strongly believe that MFC wrote the contract and rules the way they did specifically to protect themselves and leave cam models out to dry. As if there is ever law enforcement or major lawsuits, MFC has plausible deniability in saying, we made rules, we tried “our best” to enforce them, and the ladies agreed not to do those things and did them as independent contractors. Therefore I think the hammer will come down on MODELS when it comes down, because MFC has set things up just that way.
I agree. What does this have to do with the point though? You're liable for what you do.

Um, if MFC said "There are no RULES, fuck yourself in free chat if you want to" and a State's Attorney got a complaint, who gets the hammer? If MFC says it is all up to the models, the MODELS pay for the indiscretion. But MFC is DEFINITELY complicit.

Lastly, since MFC is pretty terrible as it comes to minors (they do the netnanny thing, but MOST families don’t have netnanny, most parents suck and don’t supervise their kids, and most kids are latchkey kids now and so we ALL know that kids get on MFC, and every model who has been here a while has had the 13 year old (or whatever) who admits it right out…and I have seen SEVERAL models who ignore it and DON’T ban the person.
I'm 12 and wut is this?

So, are you saying you believ no minors come to MFC? Are you honestly saying that? Since I personally think there are WAY more minors in the Guests than we even guess at, but what minor is dumb enough to know they aren's supposed to be there and say they are 13...Well, if you have hundreds per day, a few will be that dumb.

So, free pornographic shows bordering on the legal classification of “Obscene” in Federal law in open chat, and minors present. It’s a bad mix, and even if legally we say it is the responsibility of the parents, we as women who do this job, should not be doing the open free shows that truly are harmful to kids. I believe that most folks would not get TOO up in arms about simple nudity as MFCs rules state…But if it ever hits the courts or media that women are using cucumbers as dildos in front of minors, the shot will hit the fan Hard.
Of course, we already covered that MFC isn't legally responsible. So when it hits press time minors will come signing up wholesale and perverts will too. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

If 48 hours or something, did a documentary..or whatever you call it about how myfreecams allows obscenity for minors, they woud definitely be forced to change.

Izy
 
Though token amounts to reach top 20 have increased and I don't find myself up there as easily anymore, I have to say (though it isn't a HUGE argument against this whole thing) that I'm still doing very well without directly breaking the rules. The free shows only seem to affect me if they are going on right at the same time as me in the same cam score bracket as me with a similar looking/personality model as me.
 
I guess I can swing the whole thing because I'm actually making more now that I've stopped breaking the rules whereas I was barely making my soft goals when I was hardcore breaking the rules. :) I rarely even get naked in free chat lately, but that's fine with me as long as I'm making my goals and my fans are happy. Amber's right about only being affected if the show is in the same camscore bracket, with similar looks and personality. Then it effects it big time.
 
MercyRain said:
I don't know what to do, Amber. I get chatty with people and I am really friendly, but lots of guys don't want that. They want a free show. They want to get it as cheaply as they can. I have noticed that when I am just talking, my room is empty, but let me get off my ass and dance, and a sudden room jump occurs. I don't get it. Anyway, I will keep on doing what I have been doing, but I am losing hope towards a better tomorrow. It might just be the fact that I am not skinny. Oh well. "sighs" :(
idk if this helps or not, but since i've stopped "conforming" i now make almost double what i was making and i make it faster. just saying, i don't even finish my naked countdowns most nights because i'm too busy out of free chat. keep your head up, it's taken me since january to get this down.
Thanks for the support. I will try to keep my head up. :kiss:

I know exactly where you are coming from and I suggest to hang in there. I have actually been off for a while now because my brother has been staying with me and I was actually depressed thinking I had to conform just as you said.

Recently, however, I had a revelation. The get naked and fuck yourself path definitely does seem to work for many girls. I will admit that when I take my top off the room occupancy jumps, but this never seems to add to an increase in tokens. It seems to me that it's like being at a strip club with multiple dancers on stage and money going all around. The other girls are all prettier, faster, and more experienced than me so it's obvious they're going to get the big bucks while I scrounge on the floor for nickles.

What I need to do is separate myself from the crowd and play to my strengths. I've never been a conformist, have always been the odd one out, and I've always loved it that way so why I thought I had to change now I don't know.

With me it's not about a quick fap, it's about the experience. Other girls can provide a quick fap (and I don't mean anything bad about that, I rather enjoy that myself ;) ), but the guys who join my room will get the full experience of knowing a truly erotic woman.

So I've set up rules for myself, decided on the experience I want to sell, and have begun working towards providing it. I'm aware it's going to take time and patience before it starts working for me but I have no doubt that it will.

So, I guess my point is I've been there and encourage you to hang in there. MFC is your forum, do what you want with it. Use it for the tool that it is and run your business your way.
 
blackxrose said:
I guess I can swing the whole thing because I'm actually making more now that I've stopped breaking the rules whereas I was barely making my soft goals when I was hardcore breaking the rules. :) I rarely even get naked in free chat lately, but that's fine with me as long as I'm making my goals and my fans are happy. Amber's right about only being affected if the show is in the same camscore bracket, with similar looks and personality. Then it effects it big time.

This is my entire point. The fact that while breaking the rules may effect your short term token collection, overall, by not breaking rules you're getting long term support and paid for companionship that cannot be easily replaced.

Are you telling me you believe that none of the men on MFC are affected by the breaking of rules?
I never said that, nor alluded to it. I said that it's a bad to assume that every non-paying customer (or even ANY non paying customer) would pay. This assumption is why the music industry is constantly attacked and ridiculed.

You cannot compare tubesites, since the very nature of MFC and other cam-sites is the interactive nature.
Most live hardcore cum shows are not very interactive. Most models are muting basics making interaction even more of a barrier. Also you can usually find girls on yahoo or other cam sites masturbating for free. There are lots of places to go, not just professional pornographic cam sites.

That is easily within the rules as posted on the MFC Wiki.
Actually, tits in free can be a violation of the rules. Hell, there are a LOT of things that no one wants enforced in the rules and there are several members of this forum that have broken some of the rules on the MFC wiki.

That is not scientific, it is observational.
Again, I point to market saturation. Without information about this you can't assume that it's not market saturation because you need a scape goat.

that thousands of freeloaders come to MFC and roam around looking for free shows,
Again, this is kind of MFCs whole angle. If you disagree with it, perhaps MFC isn't the place for you.

But that just shows you are an anomaly, the exception and not the rule.
Then isn't this whole forum an anomaly? Amber's success an anomaly? You'll find this place is FULL of anomalies. Which would make me think perhaps your rule doesn't fit as well as you'd like. My assumption is that most members pay based on personality and looks and not on free hardcore shows.

So, are you saying you believ no minors come to MFC?
Not in the slightest. However I think most people saying they're underage are probably trolling. I would ban them for being dumb asses, but MFC takes reasonable steps to make sure it's known it's an adult site. Short of forcing members to give out personal information up front, you can't really keep them out. Even banning hardcore shows IS NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE THIS A NON-ISSUE, you would have to either lock out the site without proof of age OR ban all nudity from free chat.

If 48 hours or something, did a documentary..or whatever you call it about how myfreecams allows obscenity for minors, they woud definitely be forced to change.
Why? They can respond by saying they cooperate with companies like netnanny to keep minors out. They also provide warnings that it is adult content. What more do you want from them? They make it so any reasonably watchful parent can prevent their child from the website. Parenting is NOT MFC's job.

My whole point is, this is all about blaming someone else. Not taking responsibility to do well. I keep hearing about models NOT breaking rules and doing well. I'm not even saying people breaking rules won't affect you, I am saying it's not the whole problem. These arguments are all over the place too. There's no solid point being made. What the hell does minors on the site have to do with hardcore shows? No clue because it's illegal to even have them on with just tits in free (which we already said was fine and within the rules). It uses hearsay (other models have said...) and assumptions to prove a point (which isn't really proof and neither are really aloud in legal cases).
 
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AlexLady said:
Just a quote from the Miss MFC petition that made me LOL;

"I'm sick of all the lesbians on this site. This site has gone down hill FAST since i joined it. If i wanted to see homosexual lesbians. I would go log-on to gay sites. PLEASE GET RI OF THEM" -William Zinselmeier

p.jpg





XD


(ok back on topic.)

Nice Zellers shooting pic
 
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