Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Breaders

[Eva_ChangeN]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

A great breeder will cover the cost of 4 sets of vaccinations (6, 8, 12, & 16 weeks old), deworming, flea & tick preventative (at least for one month), fecal testing to check for intestinal parasites, and the full cost of spay or neuter (at least they do in Texas & Florida). A great breeder will allow you to bring the puppy into the Veterinarian the day of the adoption to confirm that it is healthy. You should be able to bring the puppy back to the breeder if it is not healthy in any way (Eva said something about this - check with your Vet about laws in your area). They shouldn't have anything to hide, and if they avoid this step... Don't do business with that breeder!

A good breeder will take a puppy into the vet immediately if they have any of the issues that I state below as these are common signs to bigger problems in puppies. Also, they would not adopt it out during treatment of any illnesses. So, do not adopt the puppy if it has any of the following (probably common sense to you, but I want to cover everything):

- Heart murmur (a patient of mine was adopted with a heart murmur only to have heart surgery, and died on the table of the operating room. They can correct themselves over months, but why take the risk with a new pup?)
- Nasal & Eye Discharge (sign of upper resp inf, distemper, etc)
- Wheezing / Coughing (sign of kennel cough, distemper, pneumonia, etc.)
- Any kind of weird twitching or signs of seizures (sign of distemper, neurological disorders, rabies (rare), etc.)
- Diarrhea, vomiting, & anorexia (sign of worms, malnutrition, parvo virus, etc.)

If you're feeling uneasy, you can run a blood work panel during the puppies first visit ($75-$150 depending on the clinic) to check for signs of infection, anemia, dehydration, malnutrition, etc. Basically, you're seeing how the puppies organs are functioning. The results will most likely be no significant findings, but it will be great to have before the puppy is spayed / neutered as their Pre-Op bloodwork. Our panels would be good for 3 months before any surgery.

As I am sure you know, labs are prone to obesity. You increase the risk of hip dysplasia if they are overweight. This is something you will have to monitor throughout their life!! So, talk with your veterinarian about a food that is appropriate for breeds who tend to get fat, and watch how much you feed your lab especially after it's neutered (metabolism slows down after neuter). Also, increase activity after your dog is neutered (walks, dog park, run, etc.). Slowly switch your puppy to an adult food around 8 months old as puppy food is very fatty.

Talk to their doctor about Glucosamine & Chondroitin for your lab. Ask them when it'll be best to start administering this medication to help prevent orthopedic problems. Usually we'd have our clients start once they were a year old. A lot of large breed puppy foods have Glucosamine in them. http://www.vetinfo.com/effects-glucosamine-dogs.html

Sometimes we'd do radiographs on larger breeds like labs around a year old to have a baseline photo of their hips / pelvis / knees. This will most likely run you anywhere from $120-$175 depending on the clinic. The vet I worked for would advise the owner to take them throughout the years to monitor the dog for hip dysplasia. This is very important when your dog reaches his/her senior years (7+ years). This might be a good option for you and your dog if you're really concerned about hip dysplasia.

Well... damn... I wrote you a book. >.< Don't be afraid to ask me anything if you have any questions. I still have a good relationship with my previous boss and can ask them any animal related questions if you need help. :dance: I hope I didn't bore you too much...

^ Also great advice!

I didn't have time to type all that LOL, I also have asked breeders to MEET me at the vet (not theirs) and have a couple pups examined, they can help show personality traits that may not be typical in the breeders house for 1 reason or another. Here hip xrays (2 sets 6 months apart) for PennHip cert is about $130. Mainly if you get a feeling that the breeder is being dishonest, hiding/explaining away things ANY of the pups look or act unusual or they try to rush you into deciding or rushing a visit RUN! Try to hang out while the mom is preggers will also help you decide if its a good breeder, you can see how they take care of her and get a relationship goin. Make a list of questions and concerns before you go so you dont forget anything. If you see anything serious, you can report them to the local authorities and also put info online about them (but dont slander, its illegal). Also dont forget that shelters and rescues get pregger Labs ALL the time, if thats an option, but you may not get all the info you need to have your version of a typical Lab. Just an idea

 

[FifthElephant]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

Talk to their doctor about Glucosamine & Chondroitin for your lab. Ask them when it'll be best to start administering this medication to help prevent orthopedic problems. Usually we'd have our clients start once they were a year old. A lot of large breed puppy foods have Glucosamine in them. http://www.vetinfo.com/effects-glucosamine-dogs.html

taking this somewhat off-topic.

The above states 'proven effects'.
I did some moderately extensive research a year and a bit back about this, with regards to my mother who had moderately severe arthritis.

I could find no studies giving statistically significant results in humans. (and indeed she had no apparant benefit with it)

More recent meta-analysis of all papers on glucosamine and arthritis has also found nothing, as far as I'm aware, though I haven't been following this as closely.

It clearly does no harm - but has any actual research been done on if it has real benefits in dogs?

 

[Eva_ChangeN]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

taking this somewhat off-topic.

The above states 'proven effects'.
I did some moderately extensive research a year and a bit back about this, with regards to my mother who had moderately severe arthritis.

I could find no studies giving statistically significant results in humans. (and indeed she had no apparant benefit with it)

More recent meta-analysis of all papers on glucosamine and arthritis has also found nothing, as far as I'm aware, though I haven't been following this as closely.

It clearly does no harm - but has any actual research been done on if it has real benefits in dogs?

Generally, from what I have studied, in pets the suggest Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate together which may be why it works so well in pets compared to humans, who generally get JUST Glucosamine. It's like taking calciuim without vitamine D, just doesn' work the same way. Also, you have to take a look at life spans. A dog having results over 6 months is kinda like us having results after 3-5 years, and also depends on general physical characteristics. I myself am considered a 2%er which is where most medications, from antibiotics, tylanol, or what have you, can take higher doses or longer time frames to become relevant. There are even some medications that have absolutely NO affect on ME, but work wonderfully for others.


Here is a couple sites with more "actual study" info:


http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/gl ... etics.html

http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/gl ... study.html

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm

 

[FifthElephant]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

taking this somewhat off-topic.

The above states 'proven effects'.
I did some moderately extensive research a year and a bit back about this, with regards to my mother who had moderately severe arthritis.

I could find no studies giving statistically significant results in humans. (and indeed she had no apparant benefit with it)

More recent meta-analysis of all papers on glucosamine and arthritis has also found nothing, as far as I'm aware, though I haven't been following this as closely.

It clearly does no harm - but has any actual research been done on if it has real benefits in dogs?

Generally, from what I have studied, in pets the suggest Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate together which may be why it works so well in pets compared to humans, who generally get JUST Glucosamine. It's like taking calciuim without vitamine D, just doesn' work the same way. Also, you have to take a look at life spans. A dog having results over 6 months is kinda like us having results after 3-5 years, and also depends on general physical characteristics. I myself am considered a 2%er which is where most medications, from antibiotics, tylanol, or what have you, can take higher doses or longer time frames to become relevant. There are even some medications that have absolutely NO affect on ME, but work wonderfully for others.


Here is a couple sites with more "actual study" info:


http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/gl ... etics.html

http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/gl ... study.html

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm

The third reference - and the second one that it's based on - has recently come up with new results based on the longer term studies.
http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/

Two-Year GAIT Study Results: June 2010

New data from a long-term study of the dietary supplements glucosamine and chondroitin for knee osteoarthritis pain reveal that patients who took the supplements (alone or in combination) had outcomes similar to those experienced by patients who took celecoxib or placebo pills. Previous studies have examined the effects of glucosamine and chondroitin on pain associated with osteoarthritis of the knee over a short duration—24 weeks. This study, published in the Annals of Rheumatic Diseases, is the first to assess the safety and effectiveness of the supplements over two years.'

The first seems to be behind a paywall only.

In my earlier post, I did mean chondroitin/glucosamine, not glucosamine alone.
The point on the unusual diet of dogs compared to nature is possibly relevant.

I'm interested in this, as both parents had moderately bad arthritis. And I'm getting to be past the point where everything 'just works', though arthritis hasn't kicked in yet.

Of course - the right solution for dogs is to ideally pick breeds that have no genetic issues.
But given the selection pressures, that can be tricky.

 

[sheryl]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

I love a siberian husky! they are just so cute. Maybe you should get one.

 

[AlexLady]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

Almost every breed has it's genetic issue. Dalmatians go blind, many large dogs have their hips collapse, small dogs commonly have heart murmurs and knee issues (patellar luxation,) golden retrievers can get swallowing disorders and many auto-immune issues...


You can't just get a specific breed and be sure that your dog won't have genetic issues. You just have to select a breeder who has tests from multiple veterinarians on both the parents, grandparents, and siblings.

That's the whole point of breeders.

 

[FifthElephant]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

Almost every breed has it's genetic issue. Dalmatians go blind, many large dogs have their hips collapse, small dogs commonly have heart murmurs and knee issues (patellar luxation,) golden retrievers can get swallowing disorders and many auto-immune issues...


You can't just get a specific breed and be sure that your dog won't have genetic issues. You just have to select a breeder who has tests from multiple veterinarians on both the parents, grandparents, and siblings.

That's the whole point of breeders.

I'm not arguing for a specific breed.

I suppose my - fairly unresearched - assumption is that the further you breed to be different from a fox/wolf/... - the more genetic stress you're putting on the organism, and the more likely you are to get undesired traits of all sort popping out.

To simplify a lot, if the gene for 'un-frilly ears' is just next to the gene for 'good kidney function', then if you breed for frilly ears, you will tend to have major problems getting the gene for good kidney function back into the genotype while not losing the frilly ears.

If you were simply breeding for health, or allowing natural selection, then the frilly ears would go away, as they increase the chances of a faulty kidney gene occurring.

You may be able to select for other genes, to get back acceptable kidney function while not losing the ears - a car analogy would be if you cut the roof off, you lose lots of stiffness, but you can weld the doors shut, and gain it back.

I suppose I should do some googling on rates of genetic problems in less bred animals - dingos, foxes, wolves, compared to mongrels and common breeds.

But I need to sort out my furniture so the new freezer can get to the kitchen when it's delivered.

(Dad was into goat breeding/showing - for milk yield and other factors - in a big way)

 

[Eva_ChangeN]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

Well, dogs and wild canids are considered different species now. Genetic defects also happen in nature with wolves and other species (look at albinos). The difference is that in nature predators take out the odd and the weak, while in captivity humans breed for "exotic flare". As you mentioned some genetics can be associated with other disorders.
It is suggested that many white dogs, whether it is breed standard or "rare" (which is usually a selling technique) that the alleles that bring about the excessive pi-balding (whites with some colors, spots, and dark/colored eyes/skin aka-non-albinos) also bring about eye and ear issues. This has been seen in Dalmations, Great Danes, German Shepherd Dogs, Dachshunds and Bully breeds like the Old English Bulldog, Pitbull, and American Bulldogs.
Another trait that is "human encouraged" is the merle/mottled/dappled genetics. These are seen mostly in herding breeds that used to help it blend with enviroments to help with protecting sheep.Now people are breeding these colors into Dachshunds, Great Danes, American Bulldogs, Pitbulls, and other breeds. These genetics have been associated with HUGE issues when breeding a dom merle carrier to another. Pups can be still born, blind, deaf, missing organs, eyes, limbs, ears, cancer (I am hesitant to believe that one), twisted/bony issues and seziures.
These are some of the scary things that people getting puppies from "Rare color/looks" breeders don't know. I have been reading, researching and chatting about these kind of issues for many years since I want to be a professional dog person some day. Not necessarily a breeder, but an all around dog person, doing good for my chosen breeds. My favorite book is Genetics: An Introduction for Dog Breeders by Jackie Isabell. It goes from "what is a dog" all the way thru possible combinations if you plan on breeding. It is available thru amazon.
Another issue that is being brought to the fore front of canines is where people are breeding for "rare" or "extreme" color, size or traits. The Labs and the Pitbulls are some of the well known ones, as are Chihuahuas. They are breeding for "fox reds and rare silvers" in Labs and "solid whites, and splotchy/merles" in Pitbulls and Chihuahuas. Also there are breedings going on for super tiny, super huge, super heavy, extreme mini, block headed, apple headed, bow legged, short legger, wide body, longer ears, heavy wrinkles. Anything that is bred away from being what they were intended to be will eventually lead to the deaths of the breeds. Know what the breeds are "supposed" to be. Good examples of what can happen are the Old English Bulldogs and the German Shepherd Dogs. OEBD can NO LONGER be bred together and give birth naturally because of the "extreme" trends esp in their hips and the GSDs are now having issues with "roach back" which is a bony deformity common to American bred dogs for super sloped backs to look more streamlined. Those dogs can no longer walk with a smooth gate which is needed if they are to work. When their gait is so bad, their joints can get out of wack, then their hips go and you have a 3 year old handicapped yet pretty dog.
I am in NO WAY saying that SOME people can't correctly breed great dogs in their home without a ton of testing. I also am NOT saying that mixes or unregistered dogs are unworthy. Quite the oppisite, since some crosses are healthier due to genetic blending. My feeling is that I you are not going to fix your pet, then the best thing you can do is "work it" to prove its breedable status. Dog shows show that your dog is close (or not) to the acceptable standard for LOOKS. Having your dog preform in dog sports can help prove that it is healthy and smart enough to hunt, do agility or herd. A dog with bad joints is going to have a hard time (generally) to compete. Only breeding registered dogs allows people to research possible "freak" genetics that pop up, allow you to trace personality traits (sometimes) and go back and let others know that "hey my dog was tested and failed _______ test, maybe its genetic. Might wanna test your pup (or parents again). I am obsessed with dogs and genetics, so anyone wanting more info or opinions hit me up on here. Here are some more genetic research sites I like to hang out (beware, since I am involved with American Pitbull Terriers and have done years of rescue and showing with them as well as Dachshunds and friends with American Bulldogs, LOL)


http://www.workingdogs.com/genetics.htm -lists of many sites I surf

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

http://www.doggenetichealth.org/colourlab01.php -the website of the top registration in UK, has an interactive Larbador genetic program where you can experiment how color can be passed down.

http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/pdf%20fo ... netics.pdf

http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/health.html -lists breeds with "parent clubs" and general genetic health issues

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/labrador ... blems.html

http://www.labmed.org/lnk_medicalsites.html

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/genetic1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador_R ... r_genetics -more labrador genetic color stuff

http://labradornet.com/geneticdefects.html -general discussions on genetic health, inbreeding, color and style topics

Sorry I wrote a book, but like I said its an obsession LOL

 

[AlexLady]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

To add on to what she was saying; your hypothesis is silly. That's like saying people with blue eyes are more likely to be deaf because they're not as closely related to the chimp's common ancestor to humans.

But with domestication of foxes--breeding solely for behavior--they actually had an unintended result of floppy ears and grey/black spotted coats. It's really neat actually.

And most dogs weren't bread for looks either; they're hunters, guards, fetchers, companions, and herders. It's just that by the time most of the genetic problems come into play they've already bread because all of the enviormental stresses that support evolution are gone.

Granted sure the breeds done just for looks tend to have major issues, but they usually have bad personalities too.

The only ones who truly suffer genetically from lack of the weak dying are humans. Just look at tall people and the history there. It's not even beneficial to be tall but it's sexually preferred. A lot of traits are like this in many species but that's another story.

 

[FifthElephant]

Re: Looking for my next Dog - Tips to watch out for on Bread

To add on to what she was saying; your hypothesis is silly. That's like saying people with blue eyes are more likely to be deaf because they're not as closely related to the chimp's common ancestor to humans.

But with domestication of foxes--breeding solely for behavior--they actually had an unintended result of floppy ears and grey/black spotted coats. It's really neat actually.

yup - that is a really neat result.
You can even buy the results for truly insane amounts of money.
(well - mildly silly)

And most dogs weren't bread for looks either; they're hunters, guards, fetchers, companions, and herders. It's just that by the time most of the genetic problems come into play they've already bread because all of the enviormental stresses that support evolution are gone.

Selecting strongly for anything skews genetics.

In a large stable population selected on for reproductive fitness, any mutations that lead to 1% of the animals with the gene dying before breeding will eventually - over a couple of hundred generations - tend to die out. (Unless they are positive to survival in some way - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell Anemia is an example of this - it reduces the risk of malaria).
If you're strongly selecting in a population to make them different from the base stock, then this doesn't happen.

Granted sure the breeds done just for looks tend to have major issues, but they usually have bad personalities too.

The only ones who truly suffer genetically from lack of the weak dying are humans. Just look at tall people and the history there. It's not even beneficial to be tall but it's sexually preferred. A lot of traits are like this in many species but that's another story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_linkage - is what I was referring to.
The more genes you select for, the more likely is that you will exclude (or include) something desired that is closely tied to one of these genes.

I'm unsure about height, height does have positive advantages - you can run faster with less effort if you're taller.
If you're habitually running after game, then this is a huge win.

Recent focus on genetic health issues in dogs has of course helped lots with good breeders.

If you don't breed from any dogs with genetic problems, then you can't get any better selection evolutionarily.

Especially as you can pick up later life problems - don't breed from the offspring of dogs that have problems in later life.