StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token Sites

[Sevrin]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

@AmerCutie:

I assume this is your forum here?

Did the big "Ambercutie's Forum" at the top of every page give it away?

 

[ACFFAN69]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I do know that tipping toward the countdown often comes into the equation, at least subconsciously. Depending on how long I have to stay, or my worry that the model will give up, and based on my interest in the show offered, I will tip much harder to get it down faster or much slower because I know it will not be down in time.

I think perhaps a compromise would be intriguing to all members and models alike. What about an option to allow "saved countdown points" on every token tipped that can only be provided to the model tipped. When a "countdown point" is placed onto a countdown it is held in escrow to the member. If the countdown is completed, the member loses the points, if it is not, he is refunded the points. All members can see the points attributed currently to a countdown. If a member leaves before the countdown is completed, and the countdown is completed, he still loses these escrow points. If a model leaves before the countdown is completed, the member receives these points back to use for a different countdown from that model.

Of course the model receives all cash from the tip and only "countdown points" can go to the countdown (rather then the current situation, where the actual tip itself goes toward the countdown).

A side benefit to this is, if a countdown seems slow or unimpressive to members, a model can easily refund the points and restart a new one. Asking the chat what a more preferable countdown would be!

The only loophole I can see that this can cause is a member spending thousands of dollars and holding his points, then "forcing" a model to work for free. Even still, the model received the cash, so it is not truly a "free" show. Plus a model really only has to provide as much energy to the show as she wants, so if a member was being obscene about hoarding, he would end up with worse countdowns.

I can think of a specific example this would have assisted in:
I was approximately 1800 tokens into a show (and like 8000 tokens deep that week already), there was a countdown offered that even still sits in my top 5 countdowns I've ever wanted to see. The countdown was not even close to finished and for an hour no one else was tipping toward it, I believe there was 1400 tokens left on it. The model was uncharacteristically but visibly upset (and rightly so) at the situation because no one else was tipping, and my tipping had noticably slowed down. I remember actively debating if I should even bother anymore or just call it a night. I sadly chose the latter and missed out on it. I still look back and wondered how many tokens I would have needed to toss in to provide incentive for the model and the other members to become more into the show. It was so demoralizing it even made me walk away from camming for a few weeks. If I was a wiser man, I would have privately asked the model if she can lower the countdown to X amount, and I could have tipped the rest, albeit most models would likely be too worried about scamming to consider that.

In this situation, with the "countdown points" idea, I would have continued tipping at the same pace as usual, unworried that my tips were "going to waste". Other members would have joined in seeing the countdown was going down, the model would have in turn felt more appreciated for working her ass off like she was, and the countdown would have been finished. Everyone would have ended the night happy!

It was previously stated instead of going the kickstarter route, that members should communicate to work together for a countdown, but I think it is often in poor taste to ever ask or even imply that anyone else in the room. I think it is just as likely to turn off someone from tipping. You take away some of the credit of the action in some ways. I think a better compromise could work in theory though.

Again: This is the viewpoint through the eyes of an ignorant member, and I apologize if it sounds naive and incorrect. Regardless, there is still value in seeing things through a members eyes I believe, even if it is incorrect or not the full picture. I sense some hostility in Gerald in some of these posts, but I think it's unfounded. Leave the anger to the freeloaders, not the members actively trying to compromise a solution that can benefit all.

Also: I think this thread has already came out with some brilliant ideas: Kickstarter for upcoming shows, and Gerald75's advertisement idea which is similiar to twitch but a lot further indepth.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

If you think 100 tokens is expensive... you're kinda perpetuating this problem. I don't really have much interest in working for a site whose management caters to the idea that 100 tokens is a LARGE number. That's not even a pack of cigarettes in my pocket. If $10 is expensive to you, you're ON THE WRONG SITE.

I am not saying 100 tokens is a LARGE number, but I ain't saying it is cheap either. People come to free cam sites with all kind of budgets, and what I am saying is that we should make it easier for people with any budget to actively participate in funding the show for as much as they can afford.

Customers' differences in "cam budget" are to be respected, and knowing that once you start tipping on a cam site you usually do it repeatedly overtime... $10 + $10 + ... can stack up pretty quickly. After all for, for you, does it matter if it is one big tip once in a while or a steady flow of smaller tips? Eventually, it is just about how much token you got on average by hour spent camming/working off-cam; and it is not because there are more smaller tips that the big ones will disappear?

It's a little insulting to think that my viewers would be getting x hours of my time, affection, services, etc. paying me fairly for my services, likely not hitting goal, getting ALL my tips for that goal interval taken away and then MY tips of appreciation going to another model (who would potentially suffer the same cycle). This could actually lead to more complex levels of freeloading and manipulation by tippers intentionally getting VERY close to goal and then colluding to NOT tip so they can get as much free shit as possible without actually spending a dime and getting it all refunded for a free show. Not very inviting and doesn't solve the "if other people are tipping for me I don't have to buy tokens" mentality this is supposed to address.

This I do not really understand, are you saying that X hours of your time are put into effort for reaching one unique goal? Like you start camming with that big unique goal at 6000 tokens and you do not split it in several milestones? For example, @500 = ...; @1000= ...; etc.

Because for me what would crowdfunded are those milestones: if you reach the 500 tokens through Group Tip, users are not refunded, your tokens are secured! Even if you never reach the 6000 tokens thing.. there is no manipulation to do about this on user side, rules are clear, Group Tip are only refunded in very specific circumstances.

A case in which you could lose money is for example: you reached a 4200 tokens milestone, your tokens are secured, you performed the goal reached at 4200. Now your next goal happens at 5000 tokens, a bunch of users start Group Tipping and reach only 4650 tokens after X minutes. If you think it is not enough to perform the next said goal then users are refunded these 450 tokens (4200 are secured no matter what), maybe they'll gather the tokens 5 min later. If you think that 450 tokens are good enough, you can take them - users are not refunded - you consider the 5000 token goal reached, perform it and keep moving forward. You made 450 tokens instead of 800, but at least it got the users tipping in a quick fashion.




@ACFFAN69:

I do not really understand the "countdown point" concept you are creating. Tips would no longer makes the goldmeter moves forward toward next goal, and only "countdown points" could be used this way? But whenever you tip, you are awarded the same amount of "countdown points"? As I understand it, it results in creating 2 on-site currencies with different purposes.

Could you please elaborate with an easy example?

I can think of a specific example this would have assisted in:
I was approximately 1800 tokens into a show (and like 8000 tokens deep that week already), there was a countdown offered that even still sits in my top 5 countdowns I've ever wanted to see. The countdown was not even close to finished and for an hour no one else was tipping toward it, I believe there was 1400 tokens left on it. The model was uncharacteristically but visibly upset (and rightly so) at the situation because no one else was tipping, and my tipping had noticably slowed down. I remember actively debating if I should even bother anymore or just call it a night. I sadly chose the latter and missed out on it. I still look back and wondered how many tokens I would have needed to toss in to provide incentive for the model and the other members to become more into the show.

Yes! I am very glad you share that experience, because this is typically the kind of situation I believe would be solved by "Group Tip": you could have shown to others you are willing to "toss money in" if they are willing to do it with you, without taking a risk with the money you toss in

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I really think you need to either try to cam yourself on a serious, professional level or be a little more open-minded to the feedback you are getting from models here if you want to have a successful business-model. Your site doesn't run without models, you don't get your profit-share if no one wants to work for you; listening to, understanding and catering to the model-side perspective on how the night actually works rather than focusing entirely on the customer-side is EXTREMELY important and this is something you still don't seem to respect or process, Gerald.

I'm on both sides of the glass. You wanna talk business, take the time to understand the business.

I am not saying 100 tokens is a LARGE number, but I ain't saying it is cheap either.

It *is* cheap. 100 tokens is a large number, $10 is a small one. Simple currency psychology. If you don't understand the purpose of artificial or substitute currencies, you shouldn't be trying to create a site that is based on them and I should not have to explain how they work to you. Customers are responsible for their spending habits, not models *or* site-owners. I do NOT respect those who do not consider and reserve a cam-budget; camming is a luxury commodity and if you can't afford to pay for the services you want, you should not expect to receive them. You aren't entitled to shit as a customer, you're ALREADY getting all of the previous goals that other people met (if they have been met yet) and my time and my attention/interaction/environment for free. If you don't have money for internet, don't expect to have your connection running much longer.

If you want free porn, go watch it. There are tons of tube sites or whatever. If you want to pay for porn, buy porn. Some of us make it, some of us don't. Either way it is there for purchase. If you want to be entertained (in ALL ways, whether you choose to actively participate or not) by a model, tip your model.

If you want to gamble on seeing shows by tipping small and not helping the room flow, that's your choice to make but you are not and should never be entitled to any refunds. At ANY point, you can secure ANY goal and GUARANTEE the show that you want; the same that ANYONE can pay the full amount asked on a Kickstarter crowdfunding project and give them everything they need to produce the product. I'm tired of saying this so that's the last time, I promise.

What I am saying is that all of our time, as models, is valuable. That hundreds, thousands of people get the product of our persistent hard work on and off cam for free *every night* that we work. Our job is dependent on the gratitude and understanding of our clients. Providing any venue in which any tip of appreciation will be immediately refunded because the customer didn't get their precious stripgoal is fucking selfish and focuses entirely on the customer perspective. The ONLY person that loses in that transaction is the model. It's like paying for a movie with a check and then canceling it when you get home because you didn't like the movie. It cheats us out of our time and our income.

If I used your gambling system, I would set the "milestones" around every 100 tokens (since that's apparently a BIG number and I would like to end the night with SOMETHING), rework my room to figure out what the hell I'm going to do for every "milestone", give people no room to scam me out of my goal or shortchange me. I would have NO incentive to set this higher (maybe more to set it lower) as it guarantees I can actually KEEP my income. This forces people to tip smaller amounts for them to actually be able to take advantage of the ONLY benefit that this system provides which is.... a sense of "security" to the customer that they aren't having their tokens "stolen" by the model... So they're tipping smaller out of fear, my goals are smaller to accommodate to my sense of security, tips continue to roll in at whatever pace people choose. The customers STILL dictate how tokens flow, not the model and not the site. Models can bust their asses, sites can been flawlessly streamlined with the latest technology but if room patrons don't want to tip their model, they will not tip their model. The end.


Yeah, I'm grumpy. Whatever. I've given tons of chances for this discussion to be more open-minded towards the models' perspective but this keeps becoming more and more customer-centric. It doesn't address free-loaders at all. It doesn't stimulate token-flow (unless you can show me some concrete proof that this system will, which I pretty much guarantee you can't). It doesn't benefit the model.

Whenever you want to pull your head out of the customers' ass, stop trying to feed the "customer" MORE free shit and want to start working WITH models on how to build a site that benefits MODELS by providing low-risk opportunities to be fairly compensated for our time and hard work without sacrificing the quality of our services or products... let me know, I'll be around.

 

[KylieJacobs]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think the only way that this would work, and benefit models is if the model was offline while the countdowns were going. She then signs on when a goal is reached. Otherwise it sounds WAY too similar to SM gold shows.

This would most likely not appeal to models that work on MFC and like the community feel, but more to SM models that are used to doing gold shows or privates with people that they don't know.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think the only way that this would work, and benefit models is if the model was offline while the countdowns were going. She then signs on when a goal is reached. Otherwise it sounds WAY too similar to SM gold shows.

This would most likely not appeal to models that work on MFC and like the community feel, but more to SM models that are used to doing gold shows or privates with people that they don't know.

Yes, you and HiGirlsRHot pointed out this idea earlier in this thread, at first I did not really envision it but maybe I do know:

So basically, the site would empower each model to create a landing page featuring the show that will be performed, when and different prices. Users can pledge money, the more they pledge the more they get, as on Kickstarter. For example, $1 to see the show, $2 to see the show and unlock chatting, $5 to get an extra video with the show, etc. The show would only happen if the model gathered the X dollars wanted, in which case users are billed - otherwise they are refunded -, and reaching higher amounts than X dollars could unlock extra parts of show.

For example, if the model reaches $100 then a 12 minute long cum show will be performed, if $150 are reached then a dildo will be used, if $200 reached it will last 5min more, if $300 are reached there will be some anal etc. depending on what is set by the model indeed.

Of course, the site would also feature a homepage where users can find the incoming shows depending on their interests & tastes as well as join any show currently happening (if they pay).

Yet, I think for models the main advantage would be to promote their landing page on social networks and for each customer you bring you get a way higher revshare than if it is a customer that we - or an affiliate - did bring. Currently when you promote your incoming Gold Show, you still receive only 35% out of the customers who come from the promotion you did? Because this website could give you 40% revshare on customers we bring and 70% revshare on customers You bring - it is usually what we pay to affiliates -. Would that be appealing?

To make it function well, we would issue reminders to the customers who pledged money as well as to the model who uploaded Y days in advance. We could even make a Twitter-bot for models that would automatically promote the show by Tweeting on some set dates so to remove from you part of the workload.

Your site doesn't run without models, you don't get your profit-share if no one wants to work for you; listening to, understanding and catering to the model-side perspective on how the night actually works rather than focusing entirely on the customer-side is EXTREMELY important and this is something you still don't seem to respect or process, Gerald.

DeezNA, thanks for the lecture over open-mindedness but I think I am doing quite okay, and am still working on improving. Now I think you could apply to yourself some of your advice. So far the idea I was proposing got some users interested and validating that this feature could be interesting to them; also some models - including AmberCutie - said it could be interesting but for models making money mainly out of sexual performances - not models working their social tails, which is apparently the case of most ACF models -.

Open-mindedness means that you try to see the whole picture: the different customer segments & the different types of models, what are their issues, what is important to them and how they interact together. It has been made very clear that ACF caters mostly to a specific kind of models - who mostly are not interested in that idea -, but I am also discussing it with other models/studio owners who gave me more positive reactions. Listening only to you and your conception of the business, that would not be open-minded, at all. Though I am doing my best to take advices on this thread into consideration - I hope you can see it - and am personally happy with the intelligent conversation we are having. Nevertheless, consensus is not likely to be reached.. if you cannot take it, work onto being more open-minded

I agree that the focus has been put mainly on the customer side so far and how to make them more likely to pay for the show. But this would benefit the models indeed. Now, is that idea I am proposing the good one? It all boils down to some real testing as Miss_Lollipop was pointing it out, even though it can be discussed further so to know better "what to test" and "what not to test", what would convince you, etc.

It *is* cheap. 100 tokens is a large number, $10 is a small one. Simple currency psychology. If you don't understand the purpose of artificial or substitute currencies, you shouldn't be trying to create a site that is based on them and I should not have to explain how they work to you. Customers are responsible for their spending habits, not models *or* site-owners. I do NOT respect those who do not consider and reserve a cam-budget; camming is a luxury commodity and if you can't afford to pay for the services you want, you should not expect to receive them. You aren't entitled to shit as a customer, you're ALREADY getting all of the previous goals that other people met (if they have been met yet) and my time and my attention/interaction/environment for free. If you don't have money for internet, don't expect to have your connection running much longer.

I very well understand what you call "artificial currencies". Now, what you might want to consider is that world is vast and while $10 is a small amount of money to most Americans, it is not a small amount to many other places in this world. I let you check average salaries by country (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage) and give you some data about Chaturbate to make it resonate:

- If you check Alexa.com, you will learn the following about CB traffic. Top 5 countries are representing ~45% of the traffic, US being 25% and then 4 western Europe countries.
- If you look further, countries 6 to 9 are: China / India / Brazil / Russia, they account for 14% of the traffic. Please check what is $10 to them. In total about 35% of CB traffic comes from countries that could really be considered "not so rich", but personally if it can be made more easily for them to tip I would very much welcome the money.
- If you look the data evolve over-time - and look at the world around you - you will notice that traffic from "emerging countries" is growing rapidly - and most likely will continue to do so, ~60% of the fucking world still not being connected to internet.. -.

Business operators (here models AND sites) are indeed responsible for impacting the spending habits of their customers, creating a successful business is about modifying these habits to the best of your abilities. Common things being either to reduce customers' spending but getting them to spend in your business instead of competition - think low-cost flights -, or to interest them with a higher value proposition - think Nespresso which multiplied by 6 the coffee spending on average for a 4 people family, getting them to drink more coffees at a more expensive price, while being fucking happy to do so -.

Now, if you if you do not respect some kind of people for financial reasons... what can I say? We do not envision "open-mindedness" in the same way.. I do not think I can make a website that will please everyone, but I intend to make one that will make the models working on it happy as well as the customers using it, even if it caters only to specific audiences. Obviously, it would be wise to try to broaden these audiences as much as possible.

If you want to gamble on seeing shows by tipping small and not helping the room flow, that's your choice to make but you are not and should never be entitled to any refunds. At ANY point, you can secure ANY goal and GUARANTEE the show that you want; the same that ANYONE can pay the full amount asked on a Kickstarter crowdfunding project and give them everything they need to produce the product. I'm tired of saying this so that's the last time, I promise.

While you understand that we, site operators, do not make any money without the models working on-site, you also look like thinking that I, as a site operator, am looking forward to get this feature refunding as many customers as possible... how the fuck would I make money then? I need the customers to actually spend their tokens, be happy about it, and buy some new ones to start all over again.

I think giving them the ability to be refunded in case the goal is not reached would make this mechanics work better. I may be wrong, testing shall establish that, but many companies got successful by empowering their customers to be refunded/return the product without any question in case of discontentment because this would increase the sales by a great deal since it is taking away the perceived risk while purchasing a product.

If I used your gambling system, I would set the "milestones" around every 100 tokens (since that's apparently a BIG number and I would like to end the night with SOMETHING), rework my room to figure out what the hell I'm going to do for every "milestone", give people no room to scam me out of my goal or shortchange me. I would have NO incentive to set this higher (maybe more to set it lower) as it guarantees I can actually KEEP my income.

Yes, setting "small milestones" is a good thing I think to get users tipping more while securing your money. The "Crowdfucking idea" is designed to have synergy with what you are saying, things happen often, goals are reached and the show keeps being dynamic. "Climbing a mountain" is no fun to customers I think, while having more of a "baby step" approach leads generally to more $ / hour imho. Check this Cam4 tip to models: http://blog.cam4.com/performer-2/webcam ... re-tokens/ what do you think of it?

As a matter of fact, I think this approach is already taken by many models. For example I went on CB last night so I could answer you today and gathered the following out of a popular room to illustrate:

2500 viewers, 126 min of show and $157 in the model's pocket. ~$75 / hour in public tips looks kinda good to me, I do not know what people on ACF are used to though.
--> The show was centered on sexual performance, pussy & anal play at each goal, hit goal 20 times for squirt.

Yet, last goal was reached only 14min ago. The model was asking "keep tipping guys", the room was slow for the last 10 min and the 139 tokens came from 8-10 customers tipping between 1 and 25. Eventually one of them stepped in and tipped 100 so to reach next goal, I think with a crowdfunding logic it could have taken less than 15min for people to gather the money.

Same show a bit later. 2800 viewers, 170 min of show and $225 in the model's pocket. ~$79 / hour in public tips.

So yea she was definitely doing good, but really 170 min of show and given the type of show she was performing, I wonder how she can take it. It happened several times that it took more than 10 min to reach the next goal, while no action was happening anymore and the cam girl was asking "tip guys please tip guys please". I really look forward to compress the time it takes to reach next goal, and in that case "small tippers" were contributing for more than half by repeating small 5 / 10 tokens over time. Hopefully a crowdfunding logic gets more of the viewers doing so, one will be out of business quickly with that idea.

The prospect of the same show happening, but quicker - without most of the "wasted time" - and in a more intensive/dynamic fashion looks good to me both for models and users. Maybe 50 or 60 minutes could be taken off with a better process, while keeping the same goal amounts.

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Open-mindedness means that you try to see the whole picture: the different customer segments & the different types of models, what are their issues, what is important to them and how they interact together. It has been made very clear that ACF caters mostly to a specific kind of models - who mostly are not interested in that idea -, but I am also discussing it with other models/studio owners who gave me more positive reactions. Listening only to you and your conception of the business, that would not be open-minded, at all. Though I am doing my best to take advices on this thread into consideration - I hope you can see it - and am personally happy with the intelligent conversation we are having. Nevertheless, consensus is not likely to be reached.. if you cannot take it, work onto being more open-minded

You seem to be doing your net market research off the most popular/highest traffic models. If you want a site composed entirely of top models, best of luck, dude. If you want to hear from the "average" or "lower-on-the-totem-pole" models, having an open mind could benefit you and your potential site quite a bit, since they are the bulk of the site.

I do appreciate you having a discussion (if I didn't, I wouldn't still be responding), I am open-minded to your ideas, I am simply giving you candid feedback based on my personal experience and the related experiences from fellow models that I frequent and support. That is the only perspective I can give and that should be taken into consideration. If you don't agree with it or want to take it into consideration with your business model that is entirely your prerogative, I'm simply providing my perspective and trying desperately to see yours.

Now, what you might want to consider is that world is vast and while $10 is a small amount of money to most Americans, it is not a small amount to many other places in this world.

I understand quite well and see every night that CB has traffic worldwide. I have regulars from New Zealand, Australia, Brazil and UK in addition to several less frequent visitors from countries like China, Egypt and Mexico. It's an intriguing and very enriching aspect to the job. Unfortunately, as a model that lives in the United States, I have to create my business model and set my prices off the expenses that I need to cover. Catering a site to increase traffic from second/third-world countries that can't afford luxury services doesn't entirely make sense; traffic =/= income. It would be interesting to track the ratio of spending vs. country but we don't have access to that information: this is the information that you really want.

Business operators (here models AND sites) are indeed responsible for impacting the spending habits of their customers, creating a successful business is about modifying these habits to the best of your abilities.

I'd be really careful saying stuff like this here. A lot of people have issues with "camming addictions" (in short, they compulsively spend way more money on camsites then they can afford) and blame models/sites for them. This is not the models' responsibility or fault. The same goes for the inverse. I can sweet-talk and seduce all night long, if someone doesn't want to pay me and is getting a free show, they're not going to pay me.

We do, indeed, have a massive impact in the "long-game" of encouraging those to tip that would not "normally" tip, but that is only after *extensive* time building a relationship with them and "proving our worth" to them. This is *incredibly difficult to do* if a model is offline and turns it into a 24/7 social media job (which it is to a degree anyway) rather than a several hours a night job. This is why time spent online and "putting in face-time" on-cam is incredibly valuable (in addition to adding more time for people to find you and, thus, gaining more traffic). You can't build worth for yourself as a model or your room by sitting offline and only getting online for a cumshow.

We control the quality of our services, our prices and our side of our interactions with our customers, that is all. We do not control their wallets. If we did, we'd all be living a little nicer than we are right now.

Now, if you if you do not respect some kind of people for financial reasons... what can I say? We do not envision "open-mindedness" in the same way..

I do not have respect for people who feel entitled to a luxury commodity for free or at the expense of others. I do not have respect for people who swarm around paying customers like mosquitoes and leech up services that they have NO intent to pay for. Call me closed-minded, I don't care, these people provide nothing of value but an extra number in a room. This mentality of "I am entitled to free shit because... internet" is what you are fighting as a luxury service provider on the internet. This is a cold reality for all of us. You don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it, but being ignorant to it from a business perspective is inexorably destructive.

If you want to cater your product to people who blatantly cannot (or stubbornly refuse to) afford your product, go for it. Best of luck with that. Let me know how it goes.

how the fuck would I make money then? I need the customers to actually spend their tokens, be happy about it, and buy some new ones to start all over again.

I understand your concept of creating good-will and security for the consumer, but think of every time goals are not met and tokens are refunded (where customers would normally buy more tokens, they are actually just recycling them) as money out of your wallet as well. I have implicitly taken this into factor since the beginning of this conversation and honestly just think it would do more damage to models and the site than the good it provides. That is, of course, my opinion and everyone's opinion is different.



In general response to your show example, I don't really understand the point you are trying to make or how refunds play into it. If the goal is 250 for every milestone, that's the goal, regardless of how much people are tipping. If someone feels that they need a security clause for tipping 5-10 tokens, they need to get their head checked.

In my experience, one of two things happens when the timer starts on goals (which is what we're kinda talking about, goals not being met, model having to go offline). 1. People go into a tipping frenzy to hit goal or 2. people freeze up. It's really a gamble which one is going to happen. Adding in a refund clause can address security on tips at the "zero-hour" moment in shows but it puts so much focus on JUST that, which detracts value from the rest of the services that models provide.

You may be catering this idea to models that have much more sexual-centric rooms than I, in which case my partaking in discussion from here on is really not necessary. I just feel that depriving the customer of the interactive aspect of camming (which is one of the few things that separates it from just watching porn...) by reducing cam time and bringing ALL focus onto tipping for sex rather than tipping for the *model* is slightly counter-productive. Once again, just my opinion.

 

[Sevrin]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

There's a name for cam-sites that want to do the Streamate Gold Show concept, but aren't Streamate. They're called White-Label Streamate sites. Streamate has pretty much gotten this thing down, and I don't see anything that you're contemplating that would be different enough from that to justify the investment required to buy the traffic you'll need to retain models and be marginally viable as a brand-new site.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

There's a name for cam-sites that want to do the Streamate Gold Show concept, but aren't Streamate. They're called White-Label Streamate sites. Streamate has pretty much gotten this thing down, and I don't see anything that you're contemplating that would be different enough from that to justify the investment required to buy the traffic you'll need to retain models and be marginally viable as a brand-new site.

Yea, the whole show idea sounds very goldshow-y to me. I do goldshows all the time, they are my bread and butter lol. I think most people who like these types of shows are already on streamate, and probably wouldnt move to a "token" based site, just because they already have their bases covered and a good following on SM.

Another point to make is that goldshows normally only work if there arn't a whole bunch of them going on at the same time. If everyone is in a goldshow countdown at the same time (kinda what your site's business model sounds like, correct me if i'm wrong), then most of the traffic is focused into the first couple rooms. This leaves a lot of the lower ranked models without much traffic.

For example, if the model reaches $100 then a 12 minute long cum show will be performed, if $150 are reached then a dildo will be used, if $200 reached it will last 5min more, if $300 are reached there will be some anal etc. depending on what is set by the model indeed.

also this bit, I have tried these staggered shows before, and they really don't work well (i would do these for 0$ pledge shows, so people could see if for free and tip in more, kinda like what i think your site would be like?) Most people who are tipping into the show want to know exactly what they are going to see. They don't want to tip towards a show where there could be a chance of there being anal (which is what will make them get off) and then not seeing it and having that much money taken out of their pockets.

If you were thinking about doing goldshow type things, then I would suggest not having the staggered tip goal effect thing.

- If you check Alexa.com, you will learn the following about CB traffic. Top 5 countries are representing ~45% of the traffic, US being 25% and then 4 western Europe countries.
- If you look further, countries 6 to 9 are: China / India / Brazil / Russia, they account for 14% of the traffic. Please check what is $10 to them. In total about 35% of CB traffic comes from countries that could really be considered "not so rich", but personally if it can be made more easily for them to tip I would very much welcome the money.
- If you look the data evolve over-time - and look at the world around you - you will notice that traffic from "emerging countries" is growing rapidly - and most likely will continue to do so, ~60% of the fucking world still not being connected to internet.. -.

So from my experience, MOST of my income actually comes from the u.s. , european countries, and australia. These are the people who should be catered to since they are the ones who are most likely to be buying tokens. I do cheap goldshows, and very rarely (to my knowledge) get many people from the "14%" traffic countries. Yes 10$ might be a lot to them, but the chances of them even spending that (just based on my experience) are very slim.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Sorry for double posting but I just thought of something.

If someone won't tip tokens unless they are guaranteed a show for them. What is even motivating them to initially purchase the tokens if the show isn't guaranteed to start unless the goal is met. If they buy tokens and the show they wanted to see doesn't start, then they are still out the money used to buy the tokens. So if your whole concept is to make sure members get what "they pay for" , then wouldn't potentially wasting money on tokens be beside the point?

Streamate doesn't use a token system, and I honestly think tokens wouldn't be the best idea for any type of gold show layout.

 

[ACFFAN69]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I was going to let sleeping dogs lay on this subject as an hour after posting I completely regretted it, but I'm jumping back in. I do want to specify that I'm thoroughly aware that my voice on this subject is the least valuable as I have not put in thousands of hours of camming that you models have, nor have I done any metrics or real investigation/research on this issue. I do have the experience of being a member though (for a very short time relatively), so I do have some knowledge on spending habits for people like myself. I am also quite curious on how bad my compromising idea is.

@ACFFAN69:

I do not really understand the "countdown point" concept you are creating. Tips would no longer makes the goldmeter moves forward toward next goal, and only "countdown points" could be used this way? But whenever you tip, you are awarded the same amount of "countdown points"? As I understand it, it results in creating 2 on-site currencies with different purposes.

Could you please elaborate with an easy example?

This is exactly what I am suggesting. This seems like a great compromise between model and member as far as group tipping is concerned.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACFFAN69 would enter DeezNA's room (cause he so sexy! :dance: ) and see a countdown for 2000 for an epic karaoke and dance while getting a tattoo.

ACFFAN69 decides to purchase 900 tokens for $75.

ACFFAN69 every 5 minutes provides DeezNA with 50 tokens. Each time this occurs he receives 50 "groupshow tokens" corresponding with the amount tipped, these "groupshow tokens" may only be spent on DeezNA. He also receives the most energetic, entertaining dance that would shame Michael Jackson and make him roll in his grave in jealousy.

After each dance, ACFFAN69 provides the countdown of 2000 with 50 "groupshow tokens".

Scenerio 1)
Everyone is so in awe of the amazing dancing their heads explode in a gory bloody mess and thus being dead they cannot tip. The countdown goes incomplete at 1400 out of 2000 "groupshow points". DeezNA logs out, more upset that he killed half his fanbase then he did not complete the countdown. ACFFAN69 thankfully leaves happy because he receives his 900 "groupshow tokens" back for future use.
(tl;dr : ACFFAN69 pays for groupshow, DeezNA leaves before completing groupshow, ACFFAN69 gets "groupshow tokens" refunded, DeezNA receives money from 900 tokens spent).

Scenerio 2)
Everyones head but ACFFAN69's still explode in a gory mess, but thankfully they managed to spend their groupshow points before the pressure became too much. The countdown is complete. ACFFAN69 receives none of his 900 "groupshow points" and is regaled with the finishing dance/song/tattoo so great that even he succumbs. He dies a happy man, but with no more "groupshow tokens".
(tl;dr : ACFFAN69 pays for groupshow, DeezNA completes groupshow, ACFFAN69 receives no refunded "groupshow tokens", DeezNA receives money from 900 tokens spent).

Scenerio 3)
ACFFAN69 realizes the pressure is too much for another dance that the countdown will provide and that his life is in danger, so decides he better bail before it completes. DeezNA completes the goal. ACFFAN69 leaves "content" from the show he got, but slightly upset about missing the countdown show. ACFFAN69 receives no refunded tokens.
(tl;dr : ACFFAN69 pays for groupshow, ACFFAN69 leaves before countdown ends, DeezNA completes countdown, ACFFAN69 receives no refunded "groupshow tokens", DeezNA receives money from 900 tokens spent).

Scenerio 4)
ACFFAN69 realizes the pressure is too much for another dance that the countdown will provide and that his life is in danger, so decides he better bail before it completes. DeezNA does not complete the goal. ACFFAN69 leaves "content" from the show he got, but slightly upset about missing the countdown show. ACFFAN69 receives no refunded tokens.
(tl;dr : ACFFAN69 pays for groupshow, ACFFAN69 leaves before countdown ends, DeezNA does not complete countdown, ACFFAN69 receives refunded "groupshow tokens", DeezNA receives money from 900 tokens spent).

--------------------------------------------
As mentioned before, this even gives further incentive for members to tip even when no countdown is present, or if the model is offline (they still get groupshow points to use later).

One issue I see with this idea though is, it would take a certain site style to use it. For example it wouldn't work in MFC, as MFC is more of a social site. I think members would feel guilty to spend groupshow points toward a countdown in realization that it is not giving the model any benefit, but is making her work harder. On more "sexual" sites I think that wouldn't be an issue.

I understand your concept of creating good-will and security for the consumer, but think of every time goals are not met and tokens are refunded (where customers would normally buy more tokens, they are actually just recycling them) as money out of your wallet as well. I have implicitly taken this into factor since the beginning of this conversation and honestly just think it would do more damage to models and the site than the good it provides. That is, of course, my opinion and everyone's opinion is different.

I considered this as being an issue, and I'm curious if it really would. We are starting to get into economic theory here, but I believe that the splitting of the two currencies would actually cause the "groupshow tokens" to become less valuable then actual tokens. I believe initially what would occur is that "tips" and "groupshow" tokens would be at a valuation of 1:1.

When this occurs that models will soon see an impact in the amount of money they are making per hour, this would likely cause them to modify the countdowns to just cost more to make up for it, while keeping the individual token rewards the same. In essence they would devalue the value of "groupshow tokens". This makes complete sense, because as you state the "groupshow tokens" are just being recycled. It's a form of camming inflation in a sense.

I'm not an economist in any sense, so I could be completely off base here though.

Also at some point you mentioned that if the member cannot afford the groupshow, he doesn't deserve it. I agree 100% on this in theory, and in fact I never assume a group show is going to complete unless I can tip the entire amount of it, that way I also am less disappointed when it does not. The fact of the matter is though, the entire point of the groupshow is that it is not supposed to be on the back of an individual member. So to remove the fear that it might be, allowing refunds on groupshows makes some sense.

If someone won't tip tokens unless they are guaranteed a show for them. What is even motivating them to initially purchase the tokens if the show isn't guaranteed to start unless the goal is met. If they buy tokens and the show they wanted to see doesn't start, then they are still out the money used to buy the tokens. So if your whole concept is to make sure members get what "they pay for" , then wouldn't potentially wasting money on tokens be beside the point?

That is in effect often an issue the member runs into now. If they see a countdown at 1800 and no one tipping, no one is going to purchase tokens strictly for the countdown. Most members gladly tip for reasons other then the countdown, but some do not. Some also would prefer to tip for both the countdown and just to tip. When there is no countdown in effect I think subconsciously (or even consciously) they consider to themselves "I could tip now and get the individual reward the model gives, or I could save these tips for later when she is offering both a countdown and an individual reward). This may sound selfish, rude, and antithetical to the idea of tipping, and it is, but I'm not sure it's that immoral. They are still planning to tip the model later, so she is going to receive the same amount one way or another.

With the refund idea, there is no risk and no reason not to buy the tokens if they can afford it, want a show at some point, and want to tip the model for their time.

Jeez, I hope I didn't get to personal in this post as I did last time, and come out looking like a dick. I think there is nothing inherently bad from a member wanting their tokens to be worth as much as they can be, just as it is not inherently wrong for a model to want as many tokens as she can get and deserves for their time. One side thought this post has made me realize about myself and my spending habits though is how strange it is that for some models the thought of reward doesn't even enter my mind and I tip completely for their time. I find some models have a certain skill at making it less a service and more friends hanging out, and my tipping habits change based on that. I find the magic of illusion/socialization that some models can wield fascinating :twocents-02cents:

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

First off, ACFFAN, my tattoo shows are 3000 but I GUESS I can let that slide...

Scenerio 1)
Everyone is so in awe of the amazing dancing their heads explode in a gory bloody mess and thus being dead they cannot tip. The countdown goes incomplete at 1400 out of 2000 "groupshow points". DeezNA logs out, more upset that he killed half his fanbase then he did not complete the countdown. ACFFAN69 thankfully leaves happy because he receives his 900 "groupshow tokens" back for future use.
(tl;dr : ACFFAN69 pays for groupshow, DeezNA leaves before completing groupshow, ACFFAN69 gets "groupshow tokens" refunded, DeezNA receives money from 900 tokens spent).

This scenario confuses me.
How does the model leave with tokens here when they are refunded?
Do the refunded tokens only apply to the same goal attempted by the same model in the future?
If so, when I go for the goal the second night, I basically pick up where I left off and only make 600/2000 and still give a show with the value of 2000; losing 1400.
If not, who pays for the 900 spent on my show?
Why is only 900 refunded rather than the full 1400, were the rest just "normal tips"?

It's the doubling up that confuses me; the model being paid twice but the customer only paying once. The money has to come from somewhere...

----
So, suppose DeezNA does his Inktacular Dancestravaganza. ACFFAN tips DeezNA 50 in RefundaTokens for an item off my menu that also goes towards the goal. ACFFAN gets his dance, DeezNA get his tokens - exchange finalized. Everyone's happy. DeezNA shouldn't have to do that dance again for refunded tokens the next night simply because the goal wasn't met because services were already rendered.
ACFFAN keeps paying for consecutive dances, all completed service exchanges, for 50 tokens apiece and others start tipping towards the goal as well. They, as a group, reach 1400/2000 tokens because DeezNA feels really generous giving away a tattoo show for 2/3 price that night. Deez has done 28 dances at this point. Averaging about 5 minutes per song, that's 140 minutes of grueling, mind-expanding, thrustacular dance experience. I'm assuming you guys are gonna be nice and let Deez take some breaks, so I'll be conservative and tack on an extra 40 minutes of rest time when Deez is *not* dancing. This adds up to 3 hours of intense workout, intense entertainment and intense 50-token tipping sprees. Needless to say, it's intense for everyone.
So, Deez has murdered a substantial amount of his fanbase due to unbridled, negligent and reckless sexiness. The tipping stops. Deez hovers a few inches above his couch in full-lotus position, resting, radiating unnatural light and recharging for the next dance. The next tip doesn't come. Deez has an appointment with his Paralegal/Gunsmith/Pipe-whittler, Paenuk the Wise, in the morning and needs to get offline. He departs at the end of the evening with 1400/2000 into his account. ACFFAN miraculously and thankfully survives the show. ACFFAN is refunded 900 tokens for dances he already received.

Night Two - Electric Boogaloo
Deez returns the following night having fulfilled the day's prophecy and returning the Golden Amulet of Morgorra'anok to the fiery depths of the planet's core (but that's a story for another day), and decides "fuck it, let's give that tattoo show another shot!" ACFFAN is a very well-behaved regular and is there right when I sign in.
Thank you ACFFAN! :handgestures-salute:
ACFFAN immediately redeems ALL 900 of his refunded tokens. Deez assumes he owes ACFFAN nothing since he already gave him dances for those tokens and this is a new goal. Other members, bewildered by such a large tip start tipping to try and secure the goal. Deez starts furiously dancing, causing cataclysmic natural disasters world-wide. No one cares, the dancing is THAT awesome. The room hits goal! Tattoo show time! YAY! But wait, it wasn't THAT simple on night two, was it?
ACFFAN added 900 but there were still 1100 that were provided by other users to meet the goal. That's 22 dances, at approximately 5 minutes each would be 1 hour and 50 minutes of exhausting, unearthly, supernatural seduction. Breaks? Yeah, ACFFAN was nice and insisted Deez take about 20 minutes of break time to recharge his fuel cells. So 2 hours and 10 minutes-ish for this show. Not too shabby, eh?
Now it's time for the show we've been waiting for since last night! Yay!

So where's the problem here?

-ACFFAN got way more than he paid for both nights (900 tokens = 18 dances, night one he gets 10 dances he didn't pay for himself, night two he gets 22 dances he did not pay for).
-Deez loses 900 tokens somewhere (because the money is credited from *someone* or else he would be giving a 900 token discount to night two which is almost 1/3 the goal cost. If ACFFAN is not paying twice, the site is paying for the double-redemption of tokens).
-A substantial amount of the global population is in utter ruin.
-If the 900 that ACFFAN paid only counts once, Deez only makes 3500 instead of making 4000 for two separate shows on two separate nights and has to do twice the work. This is assuming ACFFAN is the ONLY one who is getting refunded. If the entire first night is refunded and we everyone returns the next night, Deez only makes 2000 (half value) for two separate shows.
-Deez is utterly exhausted but now SUPER buff from doing 5+ hours of apocalypse-inducing dancing in two nights.


Something to think about. If money is changing hands it has to come *from* somewhere and go *to* someone. If the 900 is used twice, you would be charged twice. If you weren't, the site would be paying for it or the model would not receive it.


It's an interesting concept, I agree, but I don't know.

Something to think about, for right now I have an appointment with Paenuk the Wise, so I'll check in on this when I return.

 

[ACFFAN69]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

If anything, I'm glad I made my previous post because without it I would have missed out on what I consider the post of the year. I rarely literally "LOL" here, but you sir had me rolling from top of the post to bottom. Also my apologies for getting the tattoo tip cost incorrect, it's been a few days since I looked at your price valuations and I was going from memory. I only remembered the 50 token song+dance cost because karaoke/song requests is my favourite tip option in camming, so I took a mental note of it.

<snip>
So where's the problem here?

-ACFFAN got way more than he paid for both nights (900 tokens = 18 dances, night one he gets 10 dances he didn't pay for himself, night two he gets 22 dances he did not pay for).
-Deez loses 900 tokens somewhere (because the money is credited from *someone* or else he would be giving a 900 token discount to night two which is almost 1/3 the goal cost. If ACFFAN is not paying twice, the site is paying for the double-redemption of tokens).
-A substantial amount of the global population is in utter ruin.
-If the 900 that ACFFAN paid only counts once, Deez only makes 3500 instead of making 4000 for two separate shows on two separate nights and has to do twice the work. This is assuming ACFFAN is the ONLY one who is getting refunded. If the entire first night is refunded and we everyone returns the next night, Deez only makes 2000 (half value) for two separate shows.
-Deez is utterly exhausted but now SUPER buff from doing 5+ hours of apocalypse-inducing dancing in two nights.


Something to think about. If money is changing hands it has to come *from* somewhere and go *to* someone. If the 900 is used twice, you would be charged twice. If you weren't, the site would be paying for it or the model would not receive it.


It's an interesting concept, I agree, but I don't know.

Something to think about, for right now I have an appointment with Paenuk the Wise, so I'll check in on this when I return.

I think the thing to keep in mind is how brilliant you models are, and how acutely aware you are of how much money you make an hour on average and how much work you have to do to make it. I think (and correct me if I'm mistaken), that countdowns often just come down to that: How much $$$ you make per countdown, and how many countdowns you expect per hour. Of course, I may be far out left field on this assumption, and please excuse me if I am.

What I believe will happen is that the models will soon realize the amount 1 "groupshow token" is worth, compared to an actual token which provides money, and adjust their countdowns accordingly. This worth will end up being more or less equal to the percent amount of "groupshow tokens" that would not be in the system otherwise. The value of 1 "groupshow token" will quickly no longer be the same as the value of an actual "tip token" (which are used for individual purchases like song/dance not applied to the countdown).

In other words, if 20% of tokens get refunded, and 10% of tips are offline, and 30% of tips are applied when a model has no countdown specified, then the total countdown that would normally be 3000 tokens without this system, would be 3000*1.6 = 4800 tokens. I think the valuation wouldn't be this scientific though, and the model would end up playing around with countdown costs to get a feel for the right amount. Sooner or later the model would figure it out based on how much she is working and getting paid per hour.

This is what I meant in the previous post as "camming inflation". The extra "groupshow tokens" in the system would theoretically increase the value/cost of the countdown, as savvy models would recognize how much they are working for and what they are getting. As stated in the first paragraph, this issue (presumably) already exists in the current system.

The end result in theory (maybe?), would be that the model makes as much money as that model would normally make, but the perception from the member is that there is no risk of "losing tokens" by tipping when no countdown exists, or if the countdown is not going to complete.

So the answer to your questions lays in how you look at it. In either system he would receive the same amount of dances, but with the refund he receives a countdown that he would not normally get. Of course this is assuming that the cost of a countdown in the old system is the same as the cost of a countdown in the dual token system. If the model changes the valuation of her countdown to match this extra "inflation", then ACFFAN really received no more or less dances in the current system then in the dual token system. Nor did he actually get any closer to a countdown show, but he perceives he did because of the refund.

Now time to prepare my anus for the inevitable, because I made ALOT of assumptions in this post, and there are so many variables that may cause this idea to break down under scrutiny. My only hope is that it was so confusing and discombobulated that no one understood it.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

What if groupshow tokens took you to the actual show but in a different private groupshow room that charged x groupshow tokens per minute. So if you tip 200 tkns to a countdown and get 200 groupshow tokens, then it takes you to the actual show where you are charged 40 groupshow tokens per minute so you get to see 5 minutes of the show, then at any point you want to see more of the show you would tip in more tokens, so essentially the model would have the opportunity to make much more tokens, which would solve the problem of tokens being worth essentially half as much.

Models would get paid for a show to start and potentially earn more tokens in the show by people who want to stay longer.

I would love a site like that.

Edit:: if you have leftover groushow tokens at the end of the show they will be saved towards another groupshow but won't be applied to any countdowns, only normal tokens can be used for that. And groupshow tokens can only be used in the models room they were awarded in.

Sorry if there are typos lol I was typing this on my phone while a two year old tried to touch my eyeballs repeatedly

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think the per minute rate of the groupshow would have to be played with it's of course, but you wouldn't want it to be so cheap that someone gets to see two full shows for tipping 200tokens one time. Too late to edit the last post but I just wanted to mention that the 50per minute is hypothetical lol


This would rule out the token refunding thing but still guarantee shows for tokens

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

The problem I, and a lot of other models I know, face is that when you go into group or private you tend to lose viewers and room count. I like the concept of paying up-front for a group show so you don't have to worry about those people who go in with like 50 tokens and waste your time, but I don't really see a point in creating a new currency for it.

My two hypotheses on this concept are as follows:

1. Have a token-balance minimum requirement with an entry fee set aside from the public goal counts that people can tip towards for starting a private group show. This can be incorporated with the systems that are already in place with group requests. (I am only familiar with CB's model interface, forgive my lack of knowledge of other interfaces, this may exist already) In layman's terms: someone wants a group show that's worth 1000 tokens with a 200 token entry fee, the model sets the token-balance minimum requirement to 200, the member has a balance of 300, they can queue for the show, if they get 4 more people with at least 200 in their account that want in they can queue as well and the show starts/tokens are transferred when the model and participating members are ready. This secures the payment for the model and the customer is required no actual expenditure of tokens so no refunds are necessary. If the show doesn't happen, no tokens are spent and thus no tokens are lost for anyone. No risk for model or customer.

2. Have it so that your public shows are only clearly visible to those who have tipped for it, especially in public cumshows with 2000+ leechers. If you haven't tipped, your screen suddenly looks like one of the Sims taking a shower until the show is over or you tip a model-determined amount to uncensor. You can still participate in chat, you can steal hear sound but you cannot see the show you didn't pay for. Since this concept seems to be sexual-centric, I think that's what people are wanting the most and if they can hear it but can't see it could EASILY entice further tips. This could also, over time, theoretically allow us to lower our goal prices dependent on how many people trend to tipping to uncensor the show.

----------------

@ACFFAN69 - I'm glad my telling of my perspective on the scenario gave you a little insight into my world. =D

I would never offer dances for refundable tokens. Period. That was a hypothetical tale, but I just want to establish that point. Models are paid up-front and provide services. Refunds are only an option if services are not rendered. This is where the grey area that tipping towards large goals comes in.

I, along with many others, add smaller menu items as a way for people to feel like their contributions towards a goal are worth it. They get two for one: a menu item and a step towards a goal. Goals are never guaranteed, for models or for customers. Also note that goals are a choice that models make. There are many models (and I myself have done many nights like this) who don't even set goals. It's simply a business strategy to encourage... guess what... crowd-funding! ...and psychologically it builds the feeling that the room is making progress, it's in motion, it's leading somewhere. Instead of making it so that strip/sexual goals are required to be single tips (like my dance item is, people cannot "crowdfund" my menu items), people can tip together to do it! Yay teamwork!

I would never work for a site that even put the thought of refunds into a customer's head, especially given how skimpy people are with tokens ANYWAY. The simple mention of the word is just begging to be taken advantage of and I don't see why anyone would use a "regular" currency if they can use a currency that they can get refunded for whatever butt-hurt reason they may manifest. That's my opinion on the matter and it's a strong one, but I stick to it.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I really like the idea of the sims-esque pixelating of the show, so everyone can stay in the room and know what's going on. I definitely think it would get more people to spend tokens and join in the show, and this totally eliminates the second currency which can get confusing. (i tried doing a points earning system on MFC and people tend to hoard their points, or get confused about how to get them. Its best to keep things streamlined and easy to grasp for new members)

Plus it would make me sadistically laugh at all the members who wanted to see the show but wondered why it was pixelated haha (there would obviously be some clear indication on the "pixelated" version of the screen that says you have to tip x tokens to see the image clearly.)

Seriously, i want this pixelated thing over on streamate stat lol
I can see it now" "move cam bb" "your cam is broken bb" "i can hear you but your cam is broken"
For some reason it brings me joy.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I got to say the whole DeezNA dancing scenario was pretty damn funny. The idea has some merit but the implementation would need to be simplified I think.

I wanted to step back and look at some the big picture items this discussion has raised.

Refunds
"Customer satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" is the rule rather than the exception in most businesses now days. Of course some companies are better about honoring this than others.
But almost all large retailere and even most small retailers have a generous refund policy. It is often abused the classic example being the woman who buys an expensive dress, wears it to a party and then returns it next week.

Nor is this just retailer, even restaurants and some entertainment venue do the same thing. Bad service,cold food you get a free or discounted meal, horrible movie or projector problems a refund, badly delayed flight, discount voucher for future flight. (Of course nobody holds up airlines as good customer service models).
Hell even porn does it . I sign up for 3 day $3 trial of biggestboobs.com I get auto renewed and 2 weeks later notice on my visa bill, I call up and get my money back.

I think good refund policy is a factor for many people in decided where to do business but I am not sure it is decisive, which is why I think Gerald needs to test it. I am a loyal Costco customer because of their great prices, good quality and excellent refund policy in that order.

Tipping
The general rule is that you tip after a service is performed, bellboys, cabbies, waitress all work that way. Yes even strippers get tipped after they start removing their clothes not before.
Cam models and Maitre D are practically unique in their demand that a tip be provided prior to the service.

The combination of no refunds and tipping before hand makes being a cam site a pretty customer unfriendly place. Now that is balanced out by being able to get such great entertainment for FREE. I am not saying this is business model is wrong in the case of camming, but it worth considering that camming is very different than most business from a customer's perspective.
So I'd be careful categorically rejecting any system which allows members some form of a refund.

Entertainment Value
Gerald is right 100 tokens is a lot of money for entertainment. It is roughly the price of a movie ticket,or cover at many strip clubs. If you live in an less wealthy country like Hungary you can get snack with the movie ticket for a 100 tokens. Now perhaps DeezNA dancing extravagance is the exception but it is pretty hard to make an argument that there is more entertainment value in flash or spank than in a good movie or spending the evening at a strip club.

I think movies are an interesting analogy to draw with camming. When I was in my 20s I used to go to movies twice month, now I go twice a year. Partly that is because going to movies is something that happens less frequently as people age, but I think for myself and viewers in generally (US ticket sales have been slowly declining this century) is that the experiential gap between seeing a movie on big screen and seeing it home for basically free has narrowed considerably. In the old days if you didn't see movie you had to wait for year tell it came out on video, take a trip to BlockBuster and than watch it on your 21" TV. Now days you can pirate a movie immediately for free, or wait a few months for it to appear on Netflix and stream it to a 60" TV with surround sound.

Movie theaters/industry have responded by getting more revenue by raising ticket price by selling 3D goggles, enhancing the difference between viewing at home and in a theater.

In the case of camming, I contend that difference between viewing cam show as a $20 premium and big tipper is even smaller than watching a movie at home vs a theater. The reality is that most of the time 97+% of the viewers (counting the peak viewership but ignoring the others who watched 10 minutes and left earlier) spend no money to watch a cam model perform. The 3% is actually a distortion, because now days I hardly ever see a countdown get finished unless one or two guys contribute more than 1/2 off the total tokens. Imagine trying to finish a countdown, where no member was allowed to contribute more than 100 tokens toward a given cam session. I doubt even Aspen could finish her countdowns in a reasonable time.

TLR Gerald if I was your team's mentor in the startup weekend, my advice would be to concentrate on finding ways of making the paid experience so much better than the free experience than 10, 20, or even 30% of the viewers pay something rather than focus on the small number who do tip..

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I agree

Token sites rely a lot on bigger tips.

Have you been able to study streamate at all? I guess I haven't heard a response since my first post here haha but just to reiterate my point, The whole basis of gold shows over there is to cater to be able to watch a show for a one time buy in of (in my case 3 $) it definitely caters to the idea of affordable shows for everyone and I think one of the main things that makes people actually buy in is because they can't see the show for free. They have to give 3$ to join the show, and since it isn't a token site they don't need to buy a bundle of tokens aka waste money.

If you want to make a token site like you have been describing I think you will still find that a lot of models will rely on big tips to finish countdowns. The people with not much money to spend still won't feel like they can contribute much.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I agree

Token sites rely a lot on bigger tips.

Have you been able to study streamate at all? I guess I haven't heard a response since my first post here haha but just to reiterate my point, The whole basis of gold shows over there is to cater to be able to watch a show for a one time buy in of (in my case 3 $) it definitely caters to the idea of affordable shows for everyone and I think one of the main things that makes people actually buy in is because they can't see the show for free. They have to give 3$ to join the show, and since it isn't a token site they don't need to buy a bundle of tokens aka waste money.

If you want to make a token site like you have been describing I think you will still find that a lot of models will rely on big tips to finish countdowns. The people with not much money to spend still won't feel like they can contribute much.

I really should stop typing on my phone *facepalm* the screen is so tiny haha
like I have a whole run on sentence that doesn't even make sense haha

But yea token sites=more big spenders
Streamate has a layout that caters to people who want to come, pay a few bucks, see a show, and normally leave. I have about 10-15 people who will come in and hang out for a whole shift, but it is a rarity.

I think what you have to consider is that no matter how hard you try to change the token spending system, it will always lead back to high priced shows. Or at least shows that seem high priced (since 100tkns = 10$) that extra 0 can make someone who doesnt have a lot of money feel weary.
we have discussed a lot of different options for different ways tokens can be used, and in the end i think it always added up to shows that were averagely priced in the cam world, and still reliant on big tippers. If you want to make it so people don't have to be pressured to tip big, then I feel you can't let freeloaders into the shows. The pixelated idea is genius and one i think would make your site much different than other sites. Once the countdown is reached the model can click a button, everyone who tipped a min of 30tkns can see the show, and everyone else can tip in if they want in. This way there can still be big tippers, but the little guys can also do a lot towards the goal, and also get the benefit of seeing a show that people who didn't tip can't see.

Refunds should be a rarity on token sites and not the norm, and there shouldn't be a chargeback to the model. Especially if she is doing her job and not ripping people off. Most of us are honest people just trying to have fun and interact with people. If you wanted to be more lenient to the customers you could take the idea from streamate that the user isn't charged until the whole show is completed. This makes sure the model will start the show. If the user leaves before the show starts, then that's on them. There will be a counter to let them know when the show will begin and they should be there for the show they bought into.

 

[Sevrin]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Tipping
The general rule is that you tip after a service is performed, bellboys, cabbies, waitress all work that way. Yes even strippers get tipped after they start removing their clothes not before.
Cam models and Maitre D are practically unique in their demand that a tip be provided prior to the service.

I don't think it's helpful to get too hung up on the words "tip" or "tipping". These terms are used on cam sites like MFC since they are terms people are familiar with, and they refer to the transfer of currency from one party to another without an explicit quid pro quo, and "tip" doesn't have the negative connotations a word like "bribe" does.

On one of Tubecamgirl's sites a while back, there were popular, scheduled public shows where members were specifically told that they were not permitted to discuss their tips to models in chat during public shows, their tips (not just tip amounts, but the fact that this or that member tipped) were hidden from other members and they could they link their tips to any expectation of consideration by the model of any time. Especially in the early days, models didn't even find out who tipped what until the show was over, since that would require pulling up their account page, which was awkward in the middle of a strip show. In practice, that's not exactly how things worked out as time went on, of course, but those were the site rules. Tips really were supposed to be just tips.

On MFC, however tokens sent to models by members may be *called* tips, but they're typically used for countdowns, currency for photo-sets, videos, panties, raffle tickets, flashes and what-have-you. They're very often *just* tips, but when there is evidence that a model has promised to provide whatever in exchange for "tips", MFC, for instance, does sometimes step in when models do not deliver. Moreover, a model who regularly welshes after receiving tips will quickly get a bad reputation among a certain segment of the membership.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Have you been able to study streamate at all? I guess I haven't heard a response since my first post here haha

Yes it has been a long time I did not answer because I did not have time, but I did read everything you wrote with great pleasure and interest.

I understand your point about staggered shows, but I also think that it does not work well on Streamate because the site is not well designed to propose it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you have to send reward to users manually + you have a very short text to explain? In a more Kickstarter way it would be way clearer and visual, rewards you set would be awarded to users instantly and automatically and it would empower you in proposing more creative things. You are very right when you say that customers may want to know exactly what they pay for, but my proposal is just about empowering the models who would then decide their own strategy concerning "strech goals".

What do you think? Also I would be very interested in knowing your opinion over the rest of the idea: promotion via social networks leading to double rev-share, staggered bonuses on user side ($1 ticket, $2 with chat, $3 with HD for example). Would you splitcam your Gold Shows on such a site since its 100% compatible?

If you live in an less wealthy country like Hungary

Haha I live there ! But I am french. Do you live there too?


There have been quite a few posts since I last replied, and I really enjoyed reading them so again thanks everyone for your time and creativity. I blame you all for putting a mess up there - in my head - though, because these are a lot of ideas & insights to digest, and it leads to even more ideas

Thanks HiGirlsRHot for your excellent summary, it is a great idea to have a recap once in a while. And you made points I was trying to make in a way better & clearer fashion than me!

I do not want to bring the conversation backward, so I'll focus on latest posts except for a few quick points.

@DeezNA: you are right I focus on most popular rooms because there are less of them and I'd like to identify what makes them successful, as this where - I guess - models are trying to head.

@Sevrin: I do not really understand your point. Many cam-sites operate on the pay-per-minute business model with way way less differences from one to another than what I am proposing... and most of them are profitable. I see huge difference between what I am proposing and Gold Shows, but if I fail to make it clear it is my bad

@ACFFAN69: Please feel free to post as much as you want, it is the good place to do so, and your posts are intesting: you propose creative ideas and explain them well I would not create an extra-currency though because I think token-sites are already too complex and it would be better to simplify the "onboarding" of new users and models. I would rather have one currency that can be used in different ways, than different currencies that can be used each in one way. The economics you talked about really make sense, I agree on inflation effects etc. but it is really a layer of complexity I am not looking forward to make appear on-site, its like Cuba's two official currencies.

I don't think it's helpful to get too hung up on the words "tip" or "tipping". These terms are used on cam sites like MFC since they are terms people are familiar with, and they refer to the transfer of currency from one party to another without an explicit quid pro quo, and "tip" doesn't have the negative connotations a word like "bribe" does.

Yes I agree with you on that ! And it made me realize I should not use the word "refund" as it gets everyone afraid apparently. For me, Streamate Gold Show does refund you when goal is not met and show not performed.

But I think you guys see "refund" in a different way:

In Gold Shows, people pledge their money which is in an "intermediate state" during the countdown. From this intermediate state, it will either go back in customer's pocket or model's pocket depending on whether or not the show is performed. In no way the customer could actually "claim his money" back, the intermediate state follows clear rules.
==> This is exactly what I mean since the beginning !!! But adapted to goals in a public show

On the other hand, the word "refund" sounds to you like: people put their money, it is in your pocket, and actually it got taken back from your pocket to go into the customer's one again. Like when chargebacks happen, am I correct?
==> Because if this is what you understood by "refund".. NO WAY!!! I called refund simply the money moving from the intermediate state toward customer's pocket, which happens only in clear circumstances.

TLR Gerald if I was your team's mentor in the startup weekend, my advice would be to concentrate on finding ways of making the paid experience so much better than the free experience than 10, 20, or even 30% of the viewers pay something rather than focus on the small number who do tip.

Yes I agree (and I think everyone does?) this is the main focus to make a disruptive free cam site, I would even broader a bit what you are saying - because here you are already making assumptions on the solution: a better experience - by re-phrasing it into: Finding ways to increase the funding base of cam shows.

So far, on that topic I see various kind of solutions emerging - which can be potentially combined for synergies - as well as some that are already in place. I'll try to sum it up:

1) Render paid experience better:

--> Find new things/features paying users would be interested in
--> Make them stand out on-site, for example award badges
--> ?

2) Render free experience worse - Frustrate free users
(In some ways it can be considered as opposite to point 1) )

--> Display video ads that fund the show
--> Empower model in pixelating the show for free users
--> Disable functionality, for example chat
--> Lower quality, for example of the video by impeding the field of vision
--> ?

3) Increase number of users owning tokens

--> Give users ways to generate tokens without purchasing them, via cashbacking/microtasking/incent traffic for example
--> Target users with flash sales and promotions
--> ?

4) Increase likeliness to spend money on-site

--> Render site easier to understand
--> Help users find models/shows they are interested in
--> Increase feeling of security, for example Crowdfucking idea
--> Have different steps with different benefits for paid users, for example Bronze / Silver / Gold
--> Put create payment systems on site, for example "Text that number for 2€ and model will receive 12 tokens"
--> Empower models to put "call-to-actions" (buttons) in their profile: for example clicking on a menu item to purchase it
--> ?

It is all I could think of for now, but I feel like I have forgotten things. Please do not hesitate completing the list, adding new "areas"

 

[Teagan]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

==> This is exactly what I mean since the beginning !!! But adapted to goals in a public show

But you have not answered why on earth we would want to take our Gold Shows which are for paying members and instead put on a show for a bunch of non tipping freeloaders. I personally want to do my shows for paying people only. Not those who did not deem I was worth their money but Im apparently worth their time to watch my show. And if I did decide to put on a public show for tippers and freeloaders I would go to MFC where whether or not I meet goal I get to keep the tokens I made so far. Again your site offers no incentive to models over any other site we already have. Putting on Gold Shows in public is not an attractive sell.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Yes it has been a long time I did not answer because I did not have time, but I did read everything you wrote with great pleasure and interest.

I understand your point about staggered shows, but I also think that it does not work well on Streamate because the site is not well designed to propose it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you have to send reward to users manually + you have a very short text to explain? In a more Kickstarter way it would be way clearer and visual, rewards you set would be awarded to users instantly and automatically and it would empower you in proposing more creative things. You are very right when you say that customers may want to know exactly what they pay for, but my proposal is just about empowering the models who would then decide their own strategy concerning "strech goals".

What do you think? Also I would be very interested in knowing your opinion over the rest of the idea: promotion via social networks leading to double rev-share, staggered bonuses on user side ($1 ticket, $2 with chat, $3 with HD for example). Would you splitcam your Gold Shows on such a site since its 100% compatible?

First off, if awards are sent out instantly when the member tips into a show, what if the show doesnt start? They get free things? lol I don't even offer flashes or special requests in countdowns because there is the chance they customer wont even be paying for it.

Second if your idea of shows i so different why would you think that split camming would work? (split camming is also "illegal" for most sites and I would never risk my place on a stable site by split camming with a new one.) I dont really understand what you mean by staggered bonuses? Please explain further

2) Render free experience worse - Frustrate free users
(In some ways it can be considered as opposite to point 1) )

--> Display video ads that fund the show
--> Empower model in pixelating the show for free users
--> Disable functionality, for example chat
--> Lower quality, for example of the video by impeding the field of vision
--> ?

I would stay far away from ads. I always think of ads on pay for porn sites as really tacky. For example on chaturbate XD this damn conjuring thing pops up every time i sign on. Id rather just cam for tokens, or spend money on tokens, than waste my time trying to earn them.

Don't lower the quality of free chat hustling. This defeats the purpose. If the members cant see a clear image before the show they won't even join in. The pixelating is just an idea for censoring the show if a member hasnt joined after the countdown is over and the show has begun. Never lower the quality before the show starts

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

But you have not answered why on earth we would want to take our Gold Shows which are for paying members and instead put on a show for a bunch of non tipping freeloaders. I personally want to do my shows for paying people only. Not those who did not deem I was worth their money but Im apparently worth their time to watch my show. And if I did decide to put on a public show for tippers and freeloaders I would go to MFC where whether or not I meet goal I get to keep the tokens I made so far. Again your site offers no incentive to models over any other site we already have. Putting on Gold Shows in public is not an attractive sell.

Well the idea is that it will empower users to send a clear signal to other users: "I am willing to put XXX tokens toward that goal if we reach it in the next Y minutes, and you guys?".

Then I do not read the future, so I do not know yet if this mechanic represents a source or destruction of value for models and the site. Or if it destroys value in its current state but would require some tweaks so to become value adding.

What I believe, though, is that if it brings value to users then it should bring value to both the site and models. I think it could make tips that would never have happened.. actually happen. We have a few users here on the thread who shared their experience and said it would work on them in certain scenarios, and I also had discussions with other people - the most interesting being a MFC customer & studio owner - who validated that would be interesting to them.

Now, of course words are words and no more. But so far this is the only traction I have on this idea, but I find it not so bad.

You, models reacting on this thread, do not believe that people in a chatroom who could potentially tip (and some of them actually do) have the following sort of reasoning: I want to see the next goal, but it is worth quite a lot to get there, and I do not have an unlimited time in front of me... so I should tip to get closer to the goal, but if I tip and nobody follows me.. then we are not any closer.. so I should wait to see if other tips.

So now if out of 1000 viewers this is going in the head of 50 people, they all wait for one another.. situation is kinda blocked and it goes slowly - which I think sucks for everybody - : the "potential tips" are wasted and actually not happening.

Now I understand your concern that "actual tips" currently happening on Chaturbate will not be happening anymore, and pledged instead.. and if often goals are not met, pledges return to the users and the mechanic is value destructive. As a site operator, I will not let that value destruction happen or I do not make money so I would either re-work the feature or weed it out. I cannot guess if the good or bad side will overweight the other one..

HiGirlsRHot at the beginning of this thread posted something very interesting that has been on my mind since then: he said if people were tipping only "to make things happen quickly, when the goal is 80% met we should see a lot of small tips swarming so to get the remaining 20% done". I have been thinking over it quite a lot, it looked so true to me at first that I was thinking the idea is dead on arrival. Yet I went to quite a few more shows, and noticed that at 80% it can still take a fucking while before it get completed ! Even if you make some small tips yourself, hence the same logic of "I do not know how long it will take" still applies.

Plus I have noticed another psychological lever on myself - pardon me for this, I am really what you call a cheap cam site customer - when I enter in a room where the goal is almost reached.. I am thinking those guys did all the heavy lifting already, let them finish what they started I do not know if others tend to think like this, but it is likely if this thought occured to me. Yet crowdfunding all the heavy lifting, or a significant part of the show, is really something that talks to me: when I just saw the oil show, did not pay, got aroused, I now feel like putting in 10 tokens out of 1000 to see the next step.. Whereas Gold Show are not so appealing to me, the teasing phase do no get me aroused so to pay for the show, whereas on CB when a nice goal happened it gets me aroused and willing to pay to see it continue / move on toward next step!

Sorry I wrote real quick to try and put down 'feelings' and 'emotions', I hope it makes sense.

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

But you have not answered why on earth we would want to take our Gold Shows which are for paying members and instead put on a show for a bunch of non tipping freeloaders. I personally want to do my shows for paying people only. Not those who did not deem I was worth their money but Im apparently worth their time to watch my show. And if I did decide to put on a public show for tippers and freeloaders I would go to MFC where whether or not I meet goal I get to keep the tokens I made so far. Again your site offers no incentive to models over any other site we already have. Putting on Gold Shows in public is not an attractive sell.

Well the idea is that it will empower users to send a clear signal to other users: "I am willing to put XXX tokens toward that goal if we reach it in the next Y minutes, and you guys?".

Then I do not read the future, so I do not know yet if this mechanic represents a source or destruction of value for models and the site. Or if it destroys value in its current state but would require some tweaks so to become value adding.

What I believe, though, is that if it brings value to users then it should bring value to both the site and models. I think it could make tips that would never have happened.. actually happen. We have a few users here on the thread who shared their experience and said it would work on them in certain scenarios, and I also had discussions with other people - the most interesting being a MFC customer & studio owner - who validated that would be interesting to them.

Now, of course words are words and no more. But so far this is the only traction I have on this idea, but I find it not so bad.

You, models reacting on this thread, do not believe that people in a chatroom who could potentially tip (and some of them actually do) have the following sort of reasoning: I want to see the next goal, but it is worth quite a lot to get there, and I do not have an unlimited time in front of me... so I should tip to get closer to the goal, but if I tip and nobody follows me.. then we are not any closer.. so I should wait to see if other tips.

So now if out of 1000 viewers this is going in the head of 50 people, they all wait for one another.. situation is kinda blocked and it goes slowly - which I think sucks for everybody - : the "potential tips" are wasted and actually not happening.

Now I understand your concern that "actual tips" currently happening on Chaturbate will not be happening anymore, and pledged instead.. and if often goals are not met, pledges return to the users and the mechanic is value destructive. As a site operator, I will not let that value destruction happen or I do not make money so I would either re-work the feature or weed it out. I cannot guess if the good or bad side will overweight the other one..

HiGirlsRHot at the beginning of this thread posted something very interesting that has been on my mind since then: he said if people were tipping only "to make things happen quickly, when the goal is 80% met we should see a lot of small tips swarming so to get the remaining 20% done". I have been thinking over it quite a lot, it looked so true to me at first that I was thinking the idea is dead on arrival. Yet I went to quite a few more shows, and noticed that at 80% it can still take a fucking while before it get completed ! Even if you make some small tips yourself, hence the same logic of "I do not know how long it will take" still applies.

Plus I have noticed another psychological lever on myself - pardon me for this, I am really what you call a cheap cam site customer - when I enter in a room where the goal is almost reached.. I am thinking those guys did all the heavy lifting already, let them finish what they started I do not know if others tend to think like this, but it is likely if this thought occured to me. Yet crowdfunding all the heavy lifting, or a significant part of the show, is really something that talks to me: when I just saw the oil show, did not pay, got aroused, I now feel like putting in 10 tokens out of 1000 to see the next step.. Whereas Gold Show are not so appealing to me, the teasing phase do no get me aroused so to pay for the show, whereas on CB when a nice goal happened it gets me aroused and willing to pay to see it continue / move on toward next step!

Sorry I wrote real quick to try and put down 'feelings' and 'emotions', I hope it makes sense.

I think if you focus the site and cater it towards cheap people who pay 10 tokens for a 1000 tokens show, then you arn't going to have a very successful business :lol:

sorry to be blunt

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

First off, if awards are sent out instantly when the member tips into a show, what if the show doesnt start? They get free things? lol I don't even offer flashes or special requests in countdowns because there is the chance they customer wont even be paying for it.

Second if your idea of shows i so different why would you think that split camming would work? (split camming is also "illegal" for most sites and I would never risk my place on a stable site by split camming with a new one.) I dont really understand what you mean by staggered bonuses? Please explain further

That is a good point. Maybe automatically is good enough, but instantly should happen only once the show is confirmed. So if I come pay my $10 ticket, and the $100 required are already in, I got the 5 min video right away; otherwise I have to wait for the $100 to be reached.

Or it could always instantly (if for example it dramatically increase the number of tickets sold when the reward is awarded instantly), and sometimes some free stuff will be given away. These are maths to be done (but we are good at it ) on conversion ratios etc., and indeed it boils down to model's choice to have the "instant reward" label or not.. we would just communicate you the data

I would stay far away from ads. I always think of ads on pay for porn sites as really tacky. For example on chaturbate XD this damn conjuring thing pops up every time i sign on. Id rather just cam for tokens, or spend money on tokens, than waste my time trying to earn them.

Don't lower the quality of free chat hustling. This defeats the purpose. If the members cant see a clear image before the show they won't even join in. The pixelating is just an idea for censoring the show if a member hasnt joined after the countdown is over and the show has begun. Never lower the quality before the show starts

This part was concerning the free cam site idea, not the Kickstarter-Gold Show idea, so it is not a "pay for porn" site. But on the site I envision, ads would only be broadcast to users that already proved they do not pay / convert: you can target people with video ads, its not like popunders/banners that gotta be displayed to pretty much anyone.

Chaturbate already lower the quality of the livefeed when you do not pay, like Spotify with music: with Premium subscription you go from 120kpbs/ second to ~300 kpbs/ second for music.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think if you focus the site and cater it towards cheap people who pay 10 tokens for a 1000 tokens show, then you arn't going to have a very successful business :lol:

sorry to be blunt

I take an existing model that works and try to figure out how to render it better by making more people tip.

It does not mean that the big tipper will not be on the site as well, as for chaturbate. After all the core principles are really the same besides a unique & optional tipping feature?

Imagine all the current untapped potential in your viewership: we showed that 2/3% people actually tip for a show, and it is actually 1-2 big tippers making usually all the heavy lifting. If that percentage goes up, it is a really good thing, even if it is mostly a bunch of small tippers: being a small whale is the first step of becoming a big whale

 

[JessieWolfe]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

But you are going to be giving the people you are trying to cater to free tokens. Then they spend those free tokens and you are making no money, essentially.

You are catering your whole site to try to get people to tip, by giving them free tokens to tip. So then they are tipping which is good for the model. But you don't make money. You cant operate all the servers, mods, streaming etc without making a good amount of money.


100% of the people who see my shows pay for it. That is why their 3$ counts so much, they are what make the shows happen. They don't get that 3$ for free, they spend it out of their pocket.

If you have a show that someone can see for free, they probably wont tip the 30 tokens because they don't think it'll help the goal *that* much.

 

[Teagan]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

But you have not answered why on earth we would want to take our Gold Shows which are for paying members and instead put on a show for a bunch of non tipping freeloaders. I personally want to do my shows for paying people only. Not those who did not deem I was worth their money but Im apparently worth their time to watch my show. And if I did decide to put on a public show for tippers and freeloaders I would go to MFC where whether or not I meet goal I get to keep the tokens I made so far. Again your site offers no incentive to models over any other site we already have. Putting on Gold Shows in public is not an attractive sell.

Well the idea is that it will empower users to send a clear signal to other users: "I am willing to put XXX tokens toward that goal if we reach it in the next Y minutes, and you guys?".

This already exists. It is not new or a reason for a model to go to your site vs another more established one. On MFC the model sets goal, guys come together to tip. Model can set a time limit herself if she wants to. The only difference is she keeps the tokens if goal doesnt happen. She still gets paid for all the time she put into that night, AS SHE/HE SHOULD.

What I believe, though, is that if it brings value to users then it should bring value to both the site and models. I think it could make tips that would never have happened.. actually happen. We have a few users here on the thread who shared their experience and said it would work on them in certain scenarios, and I also had discussions with other people - the most interesting being a MFC customer & studio owner - who validated that would be interesting to them.

I understand your feeling is if people see the show is close cheaper members will come out and finish a goal bit by bit. And with your system you hope more cheap people will tip here and there. The thing that is flawed is cheap people who do not tip never will tip. They dont want to. They feel they dont have to. And they dont. They will just hop around like on MFC looking for a free show till it happens. And they will do the same on your site. Your plan to maybe have a set up that will show to members who is close to goal or has one set up would just make it even easier for freeloaders to watch them and still tip nothing. And having to watch an ad here or there isnt gonna deter them. It doesnt deter me on youtube and its not gonna stop a freeloader from being a freeloader. So therefore I am actually not out any tokens as those people were never gonna tip to begin with. They are not "potential tips", they are tips I would never get from these people and the few who may do it with the right incentive I would have to offer and arm and leg to for $1. Fuck that and those people. Ill do without their $1 and stay on a site where that isnt a concern to me. Ei Not yours.

You, models reacting on this thread, do not believe that people in a chatroom who could potentially tip (and some of them actually do) have the following sort of reasoning: I want to see the next goal, but it is worth quite a lot to get there, and I do not have an unlimited time in front of me... so I should tip to get closer to the goal, but if I tip and nobody follows me.. then we are not any closer.. so I should wait to see if other tips.

And this is done nicely by SM already. Gold show has timer, goal is met or not, model chooses to do show or not. And hey look no freeloaders get to watch. As it should be. Theres no one waiting for anyone else and wondering if goal will not be met and theyre out the money. That doesnt happen.

So i'll say it again since you dont seem to get it. You do not offer a thing for models to work on your site. I do not want Gold Shows in public for freeloaders. And again if i wanna put on a public show I will do it on MFC where yes there are freeloaders but I can keep the tokens I hustled my ass off for already.