StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token Sites

[Gerald75]

Hello everyone,

First thing first, we are not cam models, not strippers nor are we trying to get in touch in a pervasive way with industry performers. We are simply a team of 4 at a Startup Weekend Event in Budapest (Link to our team: www.f6s.com/crowdfing), and we came out with an idea for token-oriented cam sites such as Cam4 / Bongacams / Chaturbate / MFC.

Our problem statement as users was that it is currently taking way too much time for a show "To get going on" because it's a long process for the model to gather all the wanted tokens in order to reach the goal. This is not beneficial to models - they'd like to gather tokens quicker - nor to users who would like to see the action without waiting a long time.

We are sort of "cheap" users, we give some occasional tokens because we enjoy model's performance, but we do not really understand the people giving away hundreds of $$$. When we give tokens, it's just to say "thank you" - its not like our 5 tokens out of 5000 required are of a big help -.

Yet we've been thinking we are hundreds, even thousands, of viewers. If we were all tipping together, at the same time, our few tokens multiplied by the great number of potential "small tippers" could result in a huge amount.

So our solution would be to mix a Crowdfunding logic in such token-oriented cam sites where you could pledge money, and after a timer if the goal is not reached users are refunded. It could look like less money for models, but actually we strongly believe that it would empower much more people into tipping and feeling that their few tokens are meaningful because:
1) It would have no risk for them, they pledge their tokens, either the goal is reached within a few minutes or they get them back. No risk means more people would stop being freeloaders.
2) It gives a time objective, so you dont end it tipping for something that will happen in 45minutes.


So, well, it is still a bit sketchy, I hope I was clear enough. We would very much like to get in touch with people having camming experience, communicate by chat or mail and ask out a few questions to better understand the "model side".

Please do not hesitate giving any sort of feedback on that topic

Kind regards,
Gérald

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I hate to say it but you guys have perfectly described the Gold Shows on Streammate. Fixed priced if a show does not happen in X minutes all tokens are refunded.

Good luck, I helped out on one last weekend.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello HiGirlsRHot,

Thanks for your quick answer.

I just went to look at Streamate Gold Shows and I see quite a few differences which I failed to make clear:

--> The model would remain entirely free as Chaturbate: if you did not pay you can still see the show. But on the other hand, if you are willing to pay but just a few token, you get it meaningful as you pledge your money with other people

--> It's not pledging for a "bundle" containing many different actions such as striptease + fingering + cum show; it's crowdfunding one goal at a time: for example, there are 200 tokens remaining for the model to start stripteasing, I pledge 5 and a 3min timer begins. Everyone can pledge with me, at the end of timer if we did not reach the goal we are refunded, if we reached it then we can start pledging money toward "fingering".


--> Maybe while the goldmeter is moving toward "Striptease", I'll pledge 10 tokens on the action "flash ass for 50 tokens" proposed by the model, a timer starts and people can join me on it!


Is the idea clearer? Sorry for being a bit sketchy, we try to validate a start-up concept in 54 hours so it is a bit quick and dirty still. You feedback is very invaluable

Cheers,
Gérald

 

[BarbieLuv]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello HiGirlsRHot,

Thanks for your quick answer.

I just went to look at Streamate Gold Shows and I see quite a few differences which I failed to make clear:

--> The model would remain entirely free as Chaturbate: if you did not pay you can still see the show. But on the other hand, if you are willing to pay but just a few token, you get it meaningful as you pledge your money with other people

--> It's not pledging for a "bundle" containing many different actions such as striptease + fingering + cum show; it's crowdfunding one goal at a time: for example, there are 200 tokens remaining for the model to start stripteasing, I pledge 5 and a 3min timer begins. Everyone can pledge with me, at the end of timer if we did not reach the goal we are refunded, if we reached it then we can start pledging money toward "fingering".


--> Maybe while the goldmeter is moving toward "Striptease", I'll pledge 10 tokens on the action "flash ass for 50 tokens" proposed by the model, a timer starts and people can join me on it!


Is the idea clearer? Sorry for being a bit sketchy, we try to validate a start-up concept in 54 hours so it is a bit quick and dirty still. You feedback is very invaluable

Cheers,
Gérald

I don't see how any of this 'new idea' is different from the usual 'countdown to X' template that most models on MFC and CB use already (not everyone tips, but everyone gets to see the show at goal) other than you for some reason want the tokens be be refunded if the goal isn't reached in time... But as HiGirls already pointed out, on that front it really sounds like you're looking for a Gold Show on Streamate, or maybe even a password protected/ticket-based show on CB. None of your idea is anything new or spectacular (or maybe you're just not explaining it very well.)

:twocents-02cents:

 

[NicoleRiley]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello HiGirlsRHot,

Thanks for your quick answer.

I just went to look at Streamate Gold Shows and I see quite a few differences which I failed to make clear:

--> The model would remain entirely free as Chaturbate: if you did not pay you can still see the show. But on the other hand, if you are willing to pay but just a few token, you get it meaningful as you pledge your money with other people

--> It's not pledging for a "bundle" containing many different actions such as striptease + fingering + cum show; it's crowdfunding one goal at a time: for example, there are 200 tokens remaining for the model to start stripteasing, I pledge 5 and a 3min timer begins. Everyone can pledge with me, at the end of timer if we did not reach the goal we are refunded, if we reached it then we can start pledging money toward "fingering".


--> Maybe while the goldmeter is moving toward "Striptease", I'll pledge 10 tokens on the action "flash ass for 50 tokens" proposed by the model, a timer starts and people can join me on it!


Is the idea clearer? Sorry for being a bit sketchy, we try to validate a start-up concept in 54 hours so it is a bit quick and dirty still. You feedback is very invaluable

Cheers,
Gérald

So I may lose all the tokens I hustled for or I'll have a bunch of freeloaders?

I wouldn't work for this site.

I don't mind the freeloaders on MFC because the tokens are guaranteed. I don't mind the "gold" being refunded on SM because I don't have to do the show.

This idea improves the member experience at the expense of the models.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello HiGirlsRHot,

Thanks for your quick answer.

I just went to look at Streamate Gold Shows and I see quite a few differences which I failed to make clear:

--> The model would remain entirely free as Chaturbate: if you did not pay you can still see the show. But on the other hand, if you are willing to pay but just a few token, you get it meaningful as you pledge your money with other people

--> It's not pledging for a "bundle" containing many different actions such as striptease + fingering + cum show; it's crowdfunding one goal at a time: for example, there are 200 tokens remaining for the model to start stripteasing, I pledge 5 and a 3min timer begins. Everyone can pledge with me, at the end of timer if we did not reach the goal we are refunded, if we reached it then we can start pledging money toward "fingering".


--> Maybe while the goldmeter is moving toward "Striptease", I'll pledge 10 tokens on the action "flash ass for 50 tokens" proposed by the model, a timer starts and people can join me on it!


Is the idea clearer? Sorry for being a bit sketchy, we try to validate a start-up concept in 54 hours so it is a bit quick and dirty still. You feedback is very invaluable

Cheers,
Gérald

Yes that is clear. As a fairly high spender on camsites that would have at best have only moderate appeal to me. Sure if I tip 200 for a cumshow and it doesn't happen, I can be upset. 90% of the time, I am upset at the freeloaders and not the model. So it might make me slightly more inclined to tip, but only with model that is new to me. For a model where I'm regular I am generally just being nice/supportive, not because I care that much about seeing yet another cumshow, panties off.

I guess I don't really believe that a primary reason, guys don't tip is because they are concerned that their tip will be wasted. I see a lot of countdown fail that are 50-75% of the way there. If people were really saving their tokens cause they wanted to make them count, there'd bunch of small tips once the countdown gets close. In the case of MFC more often than not somebody steps up a finishes the whole count when we get close. Thing like Ass flash for 50 tokens are design to give guys something tangible to do while working for the larger goal. Seeing a bunch of 3 or 5 minute timers all the time would seem more stressful than fun for me. I think guys don't tip because free is great and I don't think your proposal changes that dynamic very much.

My guess is the models won't like this very much, but I'll let them speak for themselves.

Still I think its cool to see a cam site idea for start up weekend. We need more innovation in this space.

 

[JuniperGin]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Freeloaders don't tip because they're cheap, not because they're worried about the countdown not being reached. If that is your concern, like Gemma said, see a Gold show instead. At best, this idea is convoluted. Also, if it's 50 tokens for a flash, it's 50 tokens for a flash. It's not one guy tips 10, one guy tips 5, etc until they reach 50. What you're describing is a countdown, which are usually for things like getting topless/naked/a show. I admire the fact that you want to make freeloading easier (sarcasm) but this idea is just...no.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello everyone,

Again thanks for your invaluable feedback and insights, I very much welcome all of your critics as it allows us to evolve ideas and grasp better what are your issues with the existing.

As of now, I see several main problems with our "crowdfunding" idea:

1) On the model side:

--> the value proposition is unclear as it looks like "Steamate Gold Show" or "CB / MFC Countdown to X", when it's actually sort of a mix of the two where it stays freemium and the goal is not to be performed if users are refunded. Convoluted as JuniperGin puts it.

--> the value proposition is very weak, it does not look like turning the "Countdown to X" tips into a pledging mechanic would make users actually tip more and/or quicker and/or make more users tip. From Gemma I understand it is even seen as a risk of getting less tokens as they might be refunded.

On the other hand, it appears to me that you kinda like how it is currently working, except for that you are concerned with the high number of freeloaders and would like that more people have tokens to spend. So perhaps a cam-site feature you would like much more is that members are actually able to generate tokens without paying for them - they do not want to "pay for porn" -. This is possible:
--> Pretty much everyone buy stuff on the internet, the site could have a "Cashback section" with partners and basically it would tell users "hey dude next time you buy a book use that link, we will give you 5% of your spendings in tokens"
--> We could have an "Earn Free Tokens" section which features internet tasks to be done in exchange of tokens (www.swagbucks.com business model or Mechanical Turk).
--> We could target freeloaders with ads on the livefeed (Youtube like) and retribute the model per ad displayed for generating and entertaining this audience

We could even operate those token-generating stuff on Safe For Work URLs as well, so that members could generate tokens at work, on their phone, any-time anywhere and spend them when looking at shows. Is that a strong value proposition?



1) On the user side:

--> HiGirlsRHot believes in the existence of a small value proposition, but far from being a killer-idea
--> You are concerned that several timers would be stressful, so the crowdfunding dynamic should not be pushed too far

As users ourselve, our issue was that usually the number of tokens required to move toward next goal is very high compared to our budgets. So if we tip we have no idea if enough other people will tip with us (we are just a collection of individuals with no organization in the manner of tipping together) and how long it will take to reach the goal. We thought crowdfunding logic would solve our both main issues and hence entitle us to tip more/more often as it would speed everything up.

I realize we kinda have a "Live Porn" approach if I may say - I do not mean to be insulting and I know many models make soft shows - whereas HiGirlsRHot is more looking into bonding & supporting. Basically you enjoy the relationship arising out of the interactivity, and we enjoy what we see. Am I correct?


I have noted - and hopefully - understood well all your feedback. I still need time to digest it and come out with a better version of the idea, and if you dont mind I'll share it with you here

Cheers,
Gérald

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think you summarized the feedback quite well. I like entrepreneurs who are what I call coachable. So before I go to bed I'm on the other side of the world a few suggestions.

I think your basic idea "How can we apply crowdfunding to camming" is actually quite good. Good enough for a real business who knows? but good enough to do well in startup competition absolutely.
I think you may not have gone far in applying the crowdfunding paradigm and tossing out how exist camsites work and starting from scratch.

The value proposition for crowdfunding for the entrepreneur is an inexpensive way of funding for a risky project and a free way of conducting market research on an idea.

For the kickstart pledgers, you get early access to something, it often cheaper than waiting until the product is released. Folks who pledge even more than minimum getting a premium product or experience.

The other huge advantage is it saves time. The entrepreneur doesn't stay on for the entire 2 weeks 24x7 trying to pitch everybody who goes to kickstarter.com. Nor does the funder need to stick around to see if the project is funding, status information is available 24x7.

I think there are many dimension of how you can apply the crowdfunding process to camming, but I'll throw out one which would get me interested.

How about a camsite which is series of kickstarters for future gold show. Essentially the models say I'm gong to be doing a 30 minute show tomorrow morning at 10, another at 6,10, and 11 PM. It cost $5 or $10 and I'll do it if I get a minimum of $200,or $300, or $500. When the goal is meet an email,/text is sent and then a reminder is X minute before show starts. The model, is free to log on early to try and drum up business, but she is also free to wake up at 9:30 put on make up and clothes or not and log on a 9:55 AM knowing that she has got $300 (less the camsites cut) already made. If the minimum isn't meet the show doesn't happen and neither the model or the member need to log in.

Of course much like kickstarter a lot of the success will depend on how compelling her funding pitch is. But presumably it could contain pictures, 1 or 2 minute clips from previous shows.
Now obviously there is tons of details and this approach works much better for models with a large base of fans, but it does eliminate the time spent waiting for countdowns and the risk of spending money without seeing anything.

 

[Sevrin]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

For any new cam site to work, you need to offer something to make it worthwhile for pervs and models to switch from existing sites they already know and understand to your site, which they know nothing about. I don't think trendy funding gimmicks like crowdfunding, or bitcoins, for that matter, are perceived by either group as sufficiently attractive to want to invest time in, as long as they are getting what they want out of other sites.

As for the crowdfunding concept: It has been most successful as a vehicle for financing projects that would not get funded in any other way. There are no kickstarters for large pepperoni pizzas, because it's easy to order a pizza, and people know how. Likewise, it's easy to pay for and watch a live cam show.

Kickstarters also work because they get people excited about intriguing projects that will have a life of their own down the road, like a movie, a video game, or a better mousetrap. The best cam shows are the adult equivalent of a talented guitarist playing "Stairway to Heaven" on Youtube. You watch it once, go "wow", and you're done. You might subscribe to their channel, but you don't hire the guitarist to live with you. There would be a pressure on models to offer memorable extreme shows to make them stand out among all the other "projects" seeking funding in this way, just as models feel compelled to do public cum shows they'd rather not do to get viewers on MFC. You'd be copying what, for many, is considered one of the worst aspects of MFC, rather than providing a better alternative.

BTW: Models have already tried crowdfunding for long-term things like better cams, boob jobs, etc., on MFC, and from what I can tell, it seems to be a bit of a slog.

 

[KylieJacobs]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I think there are many dimension of how you can apply the crowdfunding process to camming, but I'll throw out one which would get me interested.

How about a camsite which is series of kickstarters for future gold show. Essentially the models say I'm gong to be doing a 30 minute show tomorrow morning at 10, another at 6,10, and 11 PM. It cost $5 or $10 and I'll do it if I get a minimum of $200,or $300, or $500. When the goal is meet an email,/text is sent and then a reminder is X minute before show starts. The model, is free to log on early to try and drum up business, but she is also free to wake up at 9:30 put on make up and clothes or not and log on a 9:55 AM knowing that she has got $300 (less the camsites cut) already made. If the minimum isn't meet the show doesn't happen and neither the model or the member need to log in.

Of course much like kickstarter a lot of the success will depend on how compelling her funding pitch is. But presumably it could contain pictures, 1 or 2 minute clips from previous shows.
Now obviously there is tons of details and this approach works much better for models with a large base of fans, but it does eliminate the time spent waiting for countdowns and the risk of spending money without seeing anything.

I really like this idea! :-D It doesn't waste the member's or model's time, and even could build up a little anticipation!

You could use countdown timers for it, where you can search the site by camshow timers ending the soonest (think ebay auctions). Essentially you could tip for a show a day ahead of time, or 10 minutes before it's expected to start. If the goal isn't reached, the show doesn't begin, and the members get their money back. I'm not sure about offering this to freeloaders though.

This could work with many different show options also, it wouldn't necessarily need to be cum shows. It could be longer hang out shows, or whatever. You could have it so if a member pays x amount of dollars that they have access to possibly a preshow or aftershow which could just be a hangout time.

It could really appeal to members that don't want to sit around waiting for a show to start, and members that enjoy the excitement of bidding.

:-D

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

I just need to be completely blunt and put out there what I think a lot of us are thinking and not saying.

Any proposition that would take away screen-time from models that do not have an extremely well-established fanbase or take money out of our pockets is absolutely not going to fly.

This idea caters entirely to instant gratification for the customer. "I pay, you give me my show that I paid for part of, if you don't give me the show then give me my money back." If you want a show immediately, approach the model and ask them for a private show. Or try for a group show. Those are already in place, those options are always there for the impatient if the model caters to that.

What is not being factored in here is the time that is spent in the interim in which we are entertaining you, keeping the room moving, keeping you company, being your therapist or companion, creating a warm environment to encourage traffic and regular patronage; the time you take to get to know the model and vice versa. This is *by far* the majority of our time on cam and it is a BIG part of what you are paying for.

If you tip and get most of the way to goal, as a customer, you get plenty of content for what you paid for. You get every goal that someone else tipped for before that, you get direct interaction (unless you opt out of that and that's on you), you get companionship. To ask for that money to be refunded implies that all of the content that you tipped to show appreciation for was meaningless.

While there are some models that would cater to this concept of having a complete stranger come out of nowhere, take them to a show having never even said a word to them and then leave (possibly forever), I think a lot of us would not. If you jump immediately into sexuality, it takes all the personality of a model away from them and forces us to be judged simply on our aesthetic appearance and sexual performance, which I think would put a LOT more pressure on models than help.

If the problem you face is that you want a goal met immediately, tip the entire goal! Boom, problem solved! If the goal is too high for your budget, do what you can, try to compensate your model for the time and entertainment they have given you (which is a LOT more than just masturbating) and do not EVER even mention a refund. If you just want to watch a model do a cumshow immediately and don't want to or cannot get a private with them, ask if they have content available for purchase or set up an appointment and be patient.

Remember, we set our prices. They are not a negotiation. You can either afford the services that you are asking for or you can't, regardless of what format it is in. Your tips towards goal are gratuity for services already rendered and the goal is paid for when the goal is met and only then.

This idea seems to be encouraging the "freeloader" mentality that we are not worth your money if we don't hit goals, that the only thing gratuity should be paid for is explicit nudity or sexual acts. This is insulting. I don't go to a movie theater, a concert, any other kind of performance, get 3/4 of the way through and then demand a refund because I wasn't happy with the show, the plot, one of the guitars was a little out of tune, etc. It's rude, selfish and insulting to the performers and those who put in all the behind-the-scenes work (which, in a model's case, is the same person).


Here's an idea. Come up with a concept where your site's ad revenue can be converted into steady hourly wages for models. This way, if we put in 6 hours, don't hit goal and you get your tokens refunded, we actually get fucking compensated for the hard work we put in and don't leave empty handed. You guys, as the site owners, would be compensated for that time (through ad revenue, token purchases even post-refund since the money is already spent, etc.), how in ANY way is it fair to models for us to put in the time for YOU to be paid and then leave at the end of the show with absolutely nothing?

Focus on site traffic and profit sharing. Help models get exposure and steady compensation. Focus on the actual business side of the cam-site world rather than the "how can the customer penny-pinch as much as possible" mentality, this does not benefit the model in the slightest.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello everyone,

I need to be blunt too, but I am astonished about the quality of answers you all provide me. I never thought you'd take so much of your time for answering and even proposing new ideas. You guys and girls are amazing :thumbleft:

Besides you, I have been exchanging over that idea with a studio owner and a couple of customers. I would like to propose you a refined version of the idea that comes from my understanding of the different feedbacks and insights.

Firstly, concerning the "Crowdfucking" idea, we do not mean to remove the ability of "effectively tipping" a model.

The crowdfunding mechanic would be an addition to the existing free live cam model: as a customer, you could choose either to "pledge" and see your money come back a few minutes later if goal is not reached, or "tip" if you simply want to give money to the model.

On pay-per-minute cam sites, you usually have "group shows" and "private show", group shows being kind of a cheaper version. Crowdfunding feature would act in the same fashion, being a "cheapest version" of a tip resulting in two buttons for the user: PLEDGE / TIP. (Maybe instead of pledge we could call it "Group Tip" so to better represent it is made to empower users act collectively, what do you think?)

As the gold meter would progress toward the goal, you could see what part are real tips and what part are pledged tips, with for example light blue and dark blue.

When customers begin pledging/group tipping, a small associated timer starts - for example 3 minutes - and they can all put money with no risk:

- Either the goal is reached, and you perform your predefined goal - as in the existing sites such as MFC / Chaturbate -. Indeed, you keep full control of the goals you set. It is not about pressurizing you into executing certain actions, it is about empowering you to effectively & efficiently monetize your audience.
- Or the goal is not reached, then depending on your choice:
1) Customers who pledged are refunded, and you do not have to perform the goal: it is not reached yet - but maybe it will be reached with the next Group Tip / Tips -
2) You decide the Group Tip was "big enough", for example $90 out $100, take the money and perform your set goal. Users are happy: they pay, but they get what they paid for.

So now, why implementing such a mechanic?

The stand point is that it would get a lot more members involved. We feel like on free cam sites, MFC for example, generally it is only 1 or 2 members that are doing all the heavy lifting to get the shows going. Most of the guys don't have an hour to sit and wait for goals to be reached, so from a member point of view I could chip in my $10 or whatever without the risk of not making the goal in the end or in the time I have available to wait.

As we see it, there are two main kind of paying customers: the big and regular tippers who are more looking forward companionship & sharing with the models, they are generally being nice/supportive because they do not care much about seeing yet another cumshow, panties off. It is likely that this customer segment would not make such a heavy use of the feature as they do actually want to give the money to the model, and not just for the performance.

The second type of paying customer, though, have a much smaller budget and value what they see - the performance - much more. There are many more of them, and currently when they tip they take a huge risk: they can only afford to give small amounts, and have no ways to know if it will actually get them to see what they want within a certain time window. So what happens? This is game theory (look at "Game Theory" and "Nash equilibrium" on Wikipedia if interested), you do not take action because you are afraid others won't either - effectively resulting in no one taking action.

So for this customer segment, we assume that what refrains them the most from tipping is the lack of timeline and high risk of "wasting your tip", resulting in no collective action even though everyone knows it'd be necessary to reach goals. The key psychological drivers here are:

1) Time: So we want to compress the time necessary to reach goals, for this we need what is known as a "timeboxing" in time management
2) Risk: So we want take away from them the risk that burdens them. This is done by guaranteeing refund in case of no action.

We assume that effectively removing those two pain points would ensure collective action for tipping, and hence increase the number of tokens you receive while decreasing how long it takes. Simply put... much more $$$ / hour for you.

That is why we strongly believe implementing a Crowdfunding logic is the perfect solution: in Crowdfunding, goal, budget and time limit are clearly set and if it does not happen you are refunded so there is no fear. Please note that there may be other/better solutions to tackle those issues, or those might actually not be the issue... I would be very interested to hear what you think of it


Of course, that would not remove the freeloaders, but my take on it is that it could be very neat. What do you think?

For the freeloaders, I think a nice way to tackle the "issue" - if I may say - would be to push this crowdfunding logic a bit further: Freeloaders would be targeted with video advertisements (Youtube like) and for each ad displayed you would earn a fraction of a token, resulting in a steady wage for you... out of the freeloaders. Said in another way, freeloaders would participate - against their will - in actively crowdfunding the show through advertisement! Indeed, they'd be more than welcome to tip a token and see no more ads for a time.


I am sharing all of my reasoning up-to-date with you, please do not hesitate giving any feedback and criticizing if you think it is a stupid / fucked up logic.

Cheers,
Gérald

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

This business model is catering entirely around "customers" that aren't paying. Those aren't customers. If they want to contribute, the option is there as much as it is for ANYONE else and always has been; adding more buttons isn't going to stop making them cheap assholes who want free shit.

There is barely anything in your revised model that even mentions benefit to the model besides dangling the "More $$$/ less time" slogan like a used-car salesman. This is more than misleading. It's actually "less time/gamble for more $$$ or make absolutely nothing at all". If you seriously feel like tipping a model is "risky" then you are in the wrong place and I, for one, will not perpetuate this skewed mentality that tipping models is a "gamble". We put up goal timers all the time... these are built into the apps on CB (I don't know about MFC, I have a penis, but I know models do them manually on there sometimes). Sometimes they work, sometimes they put MORE pressure on people to tip and they all go scattering like roaches. THAT is a gamble.

The business model I currently use in my room incorporates a menu of items that can be secured for a set prices ranging from 5 tokens (a fucking quarter in my pocket) to 3000 tokens and everything in-between, in addition to progressive goals that can be contributed to at any time as the night continues. If people can't/won't afford the cheapest items off my menu (A FUCKING QUARTER!) that they would be GUARANTEED to receive, why would they buy tokens to "gamble" with?

Bringing the token analogy over to arcades for a second... you trade in your money for tokens. You pay your tokens to play your games. Sometimes you win a prize, sometimes you don't; either way you had fun, right? You paid for entertainment. Now suppose someone offers you the option to trade in your money for "PrimeTokens" where you can sit on a bench for 3 minutes outside the arcade until the bench is full and then once it is everyone gets to play ONE game, gets a guaranteed free Snicker's bar and goes home; if the bench doesn't fill then you get your money back, no games and go home. Doesn't sound quite so fun, does it? But it's safer... Either way, if you're the kid lurking around the arcade trying to pick up stray tokens on the floor or just watching other people play, adding more kinds of tokens is NOT going to entice them to spend money they don't have or are not willing to pay.

The biggest problem is that people are stuck in this mentality that they are entitled to free entertainment, have been for decades now. It decimated the music industry, scattered television, theater and movies to the wind and poured bleach through the video-game industry as they try desperately to accommodate to and capitalize off this new wave; we have to cope with that as well.

The only way to change that mentality is for people to actively play a role in changing it as individuals. You can't change a social viewpoint without a regime change, you can only change individual viewpoints. Until people realize that they are NOT entitled to free music, free games, free movies, free TV, free porn... free entertainment in general... and that this mentality destroys the entertainers they care about so much... this will never change and they will never pay.

Spending time with models is a luxury commodity, not a right. We are forced to bank on the common decency of our customers to compensate us for our time fairly. Either they are fairly generous, more than fair or leech. Regardless of the systems that are in place or the system you are proposing, that's just how it is.

Refunds are not an option. Refunds are never an option. They just provide new venues for people to scam us out of our hard work even more and thus more risk for models.


I appreciate your sense of how the system works from the customer side and your desire to streamline it (despite citing Wikipedia... cringe...), but you need to be able to look at the business model from ALL angles. From the model's perspective, the site-host's perspective, the paying customer's perspective and the ever-present "freeloader's" perspective. Until you can see the entire big-picture, this isn't going to go anywhere.

We're here to help you see the big picture, of course, and if you have any questions please feel free to ask... but I'm not seeing a lot of questions being asked.

 

[Sansa]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

While I haven't been a cam model for very long, here's my :twocents-02cents: about this.

MyFreeCams has it in the name. Free. It means that you might get to see something without having to pay anything. And that's okay to an extent, but without a doubt all models wish that most people would. Maybe this is our entire livelihood, maybe it's to pay off school loans, mum's cancer bills, raising kids. Maybe it is just for fun and someone likes the additional income. Anything really. And most of us wouldn't be on here if someone didn't compensate us somehow for the time we spend entertaining.

The notion that 10 tokens doesn't matter? That is completely untrue. If I were to take all of the tips that were less than 10 in a single month, they'd add up to at least a few thousand tokens. That's a lot when you think about it, and that's why most of us appreciate even small amounts when they happen. Sure 10 tokens is not going to pay my phone bill by iteself, but when that happens a bunch of times? It most certainly does.

If someone wants to watch for free, fine. Like I said, it's in the name. I'd venture to say that no one (at least on MFC) is going to expect everyone to tip, and again, that's okay, we broadcast where we do knowing this. It's when a non-paying member starts asking for or worse, demanding things, that we get pissed off because they want us to do something for them for absolutely nothing, and that's why marketing ideas like this don't fly with us. If you want to get off right now, don't want to wait, don't want to waste your tokens for a countdown that might not be reached? Many of us have videos for sale. Many of us offer privates. Many of us have a tip menu with things that might be as little as 10 or 20 tokens, something that will definitely get something you can see immediately. If that's not available at the time for a particular model, or it's not at the price you want, we can't always have what we want, so click next.

If someone wants something for free, like right now, there are thousands of free streaming sites that way filled with videos where the actors and actresses have already been paid for their work. If you want something live and in the moment, that sort of thing is a little more special, and it's costs more. It's just the way things are.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Hello DeezNA,

Thanks for your answer. You are right, I did not ask many questions directly because I tend to present business ideas as many assumptions that requires validation: assumptions about issues, assumptions about solutions and their results. Actually, when you confront me like you just did, you answer the questions I have in my mind because you challenge my assumptions. I could ask questions in a more direct way if you would prefer?

you need to be able to look at the business model from ALL angles.

Yes agreed, this is what I am working on by posting here. I personally work as project manager for an adult company operating (among other things) pay-per-minute cam sites. But being only 24yo with an impressive total of 5 months of experience, I did not reach that point just yet This idea/project is my own though, not a company one.

Maybe I can attempt to apply some "site's operator" perspective over your reply, so to foster better understanding.

This business model is catering entirely around "customers" that aren't paying. Those aren't customers.

This business model is made out of a differentiation strategy over the existing such as MFC / Chaturbate. On Chaturbate, if you go in chatrooms and count the number of users by color you should find out that ~7% of the viewers actually have tokens in popular rooms. This looks low, and I want to differentiate in ways that would broader the paying user base. To do so, I need to figure out the different kind of customers, what motivates/annoy them and capitalize on this knowledge. You do not agree with my reasons, and indeed you know much more than me about the customers, would you be able to "portray" the main kind of customers?

By the way, customers that aren't paying can be actual customers as FB and Google remind us everyday.

If they want to contribute, the option is there as much as it is for ANYONE else and always has been; adding more buttons isn't going to stop making them cheap assholes who want free shit.

This is not very pro-innovation to say things should stay as they always was Personally, as an "entrepreneur wannabe" I love changing things, yet I'd rather change the good things and it is hard to figure out which are those. I hope you can see I am truly attempting to get the best out of the various feedbacks.

Adding the "Group Tip" button is about fighting the 2 customer pain points I identified (time & risk) in an attempt to broader the number of people actively participating in paying the show. I think that would be the best perk for models, and that is why I focus my analysis on the user side. What do you think would be good ways of making more people pay/generate you money?

There is barely anything in your revised model that even mentions benefit to the model besides dangling the "More $$$/ less time" slogan like a used-car salesman. This is more than misleading. It's actually "less time/gamble for more $$$ or make absolutely nothing at all".

The only benefit I am seeking for models there is that they can reach their goals faster because more people pay thanks to this "Group Tip" button. It is an assumption, if proved true it would actually result in more $/hour.

If you seriously feel like tipping a model is "risky" then you are in the wrong place and I, for one, will not perpetuate this skewed mentality that tipping models is a "gamble". We put up goal timers all the time... these are built into the apps on CB (I don't know about MFC, I have a penis, but I know models do them manually on there sometimes). Sometimes they work, sometimes they put MORE pressure on people to tip and they all go scattering like roaches. THAT is a gamble.

I feel like giving $5/$10/$20 because the next model's goal is "Get Me Naked" or "I will tell you the story of" and it interests me is worth it... if I get to see/hear it. If I know it's likely to take 20min because we will still need to gather $75, and I only have 10 minutes... it is not worth it. Hence, my best interest from economic perspective is to wait and take no action until others do because I do not know what they mean to do until they've done it. This is why I was referring to Wikipedia, this is better explain by Game Theory and Nash equilibrium than by me.

Now, the "funny" thing is that we could very well be 20 users willing to pay $5 to get to hear the story in the next 5-10 minutes and fund the model's goal fully. But as there is no way to know it, or to try at no risk, everybody follows his "best interest" as an individual and nobody tips. Yet the best interest of everyone here - including the model - is that we all pay and reach the goal. This is this sort of collective behavior I am attempting to implement by bringing crowdfunding principles. Why do you think my logic is so intrinsically flawed?

Imho, the timers you currently have do not work to ensure this collective action properly as they put a timer but do not remove the risk of participating.

If people can't/won't afford the cheapest items off my menu (A FUCKING QUARTER!) that they would be GUARANTEED to receive, why would they buy tokens to "gamble" with?

Here you are assuming that those people are interested in the cheapest item of your menu. If I could draw a parallel, it's like assuming I would have a tiny budget and would go buy a couple of french fries at McDonald. But I have no interest in that, I want a burger or I don't spend money at McDonald - maybe I'd go hang there for the free wifi tho -.

On the other I am assuming that those people are interested in paying a price equivalent to your cheapest menu item, and actually gather the tip with others so to buy your more expensive items. We should provide them with ways to effectively do so, it would be better for you and them. It's like I gather my money with two friends and we split a Big Mac, I am happy.

Bringing the token analogy over to arcades for a second... you trade in your money for tokens. You pay your tokens to play your games. Sometimes you win a prize, sometimes you don't; either way you had fun, right? You paid for entertainment. Now suppose someone offers you the option to trade in your money for "PrimeTokens" where you can sit on a bench for 3 minutes outside the arcade until the bench is full and then once it is everyone gets to play ONE game, gets a guaranteed free Snicker's bar and goes home; if the bench doesn't fill then you get your money back, no games and go home. Doesn't sound quite so fun, does it? But it's safer... Either way, if you're the kid lurking around the arcade trying to pick up stray tokens on the floor or just watching other people play, adding more kinds of tokens is NOT going to entice them to spend money they don't have or are not willing to pay.

It is highly dependent on the % of chances to fill the said bench, value of PrimeTokens etc.
The problem with that analogy is there you are comparing with goods 'arcade games' that can be used only by 1 person at a time, whereas a livefeed on the other hand can be used by a looot of people at a time. Economic logics are not the same for those two kind of products.

Now, in your example, consider PrimeTokens are worth only 33% of normal tokens but you need to be 3 with a PrimeTokens on the bench. If I am the kid who can afford those PrimeTokens, but not the normal one, and I am given the opportunity to organize myself with other kids so to fill the bench... you actually entice me to spend money I have and I am willing to pay Don't you think?

The biggest problem is that people are stuck in this mentality that they are entitled to free entertainment, have been for decades now. It decimated the music industry, scattered television, theater and movies to the wind and poured bleach through the video-game industry as they try desperately to accommodate to and capitalize off this new wave; we have to cope with that as well.

The only way to change that mentality is for people to actively play a role in changing it as individuals. You can't change a social viewpoint without a regime change, you can only change individual viewpoints. Until people realize that they are NOT entitled to free music, free games, free movies, free TV, free porn... free entertainment in general... and that this mentality destroys the entertainers they care about so much... this will never change and they will never pay.

Spending time with models is a luxury commodity, not a right. We are forced to bank on the common decency of our customers to compensate us for our time fairly. Either they are fairly generous, more than fair or leech. Regardless of the systems that are in place or the system you are proposing, that's just how it is.

It is a very interesting subject you raise there, for which I do not have the answer, and I am not sure it's the best place to discuss it. My humble opinion though, is that things becoming available for free is a normal evolution of our current business models as costs of distributing are falling at an incredible speed while costs of making content are relatively flat in comparison. If you are interested in that subject, here is one of the most interesting video I have been given the chance of seeing: http://www.ted.com/talks/philip_evans_h ... anguage=en and of course let me know what you think

Refunds are not an option. Refunds are never an option. They just provide new venues for people to scam us out of our hard work even more and thus more risk for models.

This I do not understand. What if the goal is refunded in 30% of cases (and then you do not have to perform it) but on average reached 75% faster, don't you think it is a win-win? It is not about anyone scamming anyone, it's just proposing a proper way of making demand and offer meet on a market place.


The other thing I was investigating, but did not mention here so far, was helping models make time by empowering them to render their chatroom a bit more "automated". For example, that you do not have to give manually your snapchat to a user who paid for it but instead he would "unlock" it and you would be notified.
But this is not very well thought yet, I just feel like models spend a lot of time away from camera actually managing their business and that we could cut through this alloted time by proposing you relevant and efficient tools. Any particular idea on this?


Cheers,
Gérald

 

[Miss_Lollipop]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

The big problem here is

we assume that what refrains them the most from tipping is the lack of timeline and high risk of "wasting your tip", resulting in no collective action even though everyone knows it'd be necessary to reach goals.

The whole idea is based on this assumption. Before you develop it any more, you need to go out, do some market research and find out if that's actually the case. Because without it, your entire idea crumbles and everything else doesn't matter anyway.

Gut feeling after camming for over 4 years is that the # of people who would actually feel this way, and be more inclined to tip than before, is going to be outweighed by the amount of tokens models will lose everytime they fail to hit a goal.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

@TallulaBlythe: thanks I think you made me realize something

Since the beginning we are confronting, and I do not understand why: on my side I feel like I am trying to bring something that would be good for both sides, users & models. I may be a naive boy, but I believe interests of models and sites' operators are aligned: we do not make money without you, you make less without us (generally), and the more you make, the best models it brings hence customers come too. Etc. etc. virtuous circle that everyone knows about.

Yet, you are gently treating me as if I was trying to bring the biggest rip-off feature models have ever seen in this industry

Is it because you think that when the two options exist, Group Tip and Tip, then everyone will stop "tipping for real" and start Group Tipping instead, even some of your regulars etc?

If I would tell you that the Group Tip is a chatroom feature that you could choose to activate or not by simply ticking a box, would you mind it so much? Potentially test it out to see if it works better?


By the way, Tallula I was by no way trying to mean that small tips do not count for the models. I am actually trying to multiply the number of users doing small tips by enabling them to do it together. What I meant is that for the User making a small tip does not look like meaning: you are actually spending money and most likely wont change anything to the situation for the next 15min with your effort.

Regards,
Gérald

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

would you be able to "portray" the main kind of customers?

Paying customers are people who join my room and compensate me for my services.

Non-paying "customers" are the rest of the parasites that either go anon or sit in my room silent and wait for someone else to pay for their shit like a goddamn soup kitchen. I try to view most of them as potential customers (grays on CB) since EVERY gray has the option of buying tokens at any time, and do my best to encourage them without pressuring them too much to attempt to compensate me for the time and effort that I have put in to entertain them. It's up to them to choose whether or not they want to actually commit to spending $11, $20, whatever it may be to actually purchase tokens and spend them. Some do, most don't. I remember names. If someone lurks in my room for 2 weeks, leeches all of my attention (which is a service I provide) and provides no compensation, plays the "oh, I'm broke" card or flat-out refuses to pay, they get the boot.

Non-paying "customers" ONLY benefit the site-host via ad revenue. This does not help the model at ALL besides simply taking up space and adding a number to the room count.

Adding the "Group Tip" button is about fighting the 2 customer pain points I identified (time & risk) in an attempt to broader the number of people actively participating in paying the show. I think that would be the best perk for models, and that is why I focus my analysis on the user side. What do you think would be good ways of making more people pay/generate you money?

Customers are paying for my time. There is some skewed misconception here that all models are selling is porn and pussy/dick. We provide a wide range of services ranging from general companionship, an environment to "hang out" in, a place to play games, eclectic entertainment, general sensuality, dancing, sexual activity, etc. Adult entertainment is a very broad title and that's what I love the most about it. It varies from model to model what specific activities are performed and thus some time is "worth" more than other time, but all of our time is "worth" something. Our presence is part of our service, chatting and spending time with you IS a service. Some of our customers actually see this, most don't.

Like I said in my original response, people who are tipping are showing gratuity for services already rendered. They may have hopes of reaching a goal (trust me, models want to hit goals too...), but their tips are paying for what has already been provided, not what is yet to be achieved. Like we have all said, if a customer wants a zero "risk" solution to meeting a goal, here's the super-secret solution that models have been hiding for years: TIP THE GOAL. Done. You get your goal immediately! If you're only there for THE GOAL and want to chance someone else contributing, that's a choice that you as the customer are taking. If you don't want to pay for other people to "reap the rewards" of your tip, go private. Buy content. Zero "risk", you get exactly what you want. gg.

What are good ways of getting more people to pay? If I knew, I'd have bigger room numbers and higher revenue. A good start would be to shift the focus off of the "me-me-me now-now-now" customer mentality and move more towards tips being viewed as what they actually are: TIPS, gratuity, appreciation, compensation for the hard work we put in on AND off cam. Goals are there to entice people to keep the show moving, a lot of models don't even do goals and I sometimes try no-goal nights to mix it up as well. You are not buying a future show, you compensating the model for the time they have ALREADY SPENT and paying to keep them on for another show.

People can "Group Tip" right now. All they have to do is talk to each other, trust each other and... tip... together... as a group... Then even if someone chickens out at the last minute, the model still gets compensated for their time and the customer doesn't "suffer" a "huge loss" as they would if they actually paid for what they want at the price it is listed and didn't receive it.

Time is also very important as it provides a larger window for people to actually catch you online and gives more opportunity for traffic and new users to find you. We don't get paid by the hour and for models who are still establishing and developing our fanbases (which is most of us), putting in the hours is CRITICAL. Less time is not necessarily a good thing, making sure that the necessary time that is put in is fairly compensated is a very good thing.

But I have no interest in that, I want a burger or I don't spend money at McDonald - maybe I'd go hang there for the free wifi tho -.

WiFi isn't free, it's an advertising ploy. The WiFi is paid for by everyone who bought the dollar fries and Big Macs in the past. If you think a luxury commodity like the internet is free, you are as delusional as everyone who comes into our rooms thinking they are entitled to our time with no compensation. THIS is the problem, right here: NOTHING IS FREE. If you hang out in McDonald's and leech WiFi every day you WILL get kicked out because you are NOT A PAYING CUSTOMER. Thank you for providing that analogy, it's a very good one.

Now, the "funny" thing is that we could very well be 20 users willing to pay $5 to get to hear the story in the next 5-10 minutes and fund the model's goal fully. But as there is no way to know it, or to try at no risk, everybody follows his "best interest" as an individual and nobody tips. Yet the best interest of everyone here - including the model - is that we all pay and reach the goal. This is this sort of collective behavior I am attempting to implement by bringing crowdfunding principles. Why do you think my logic is so intrinsically flawed?

I have a perfect solution for this. It requires no new site, no coding, no reworking of the system. Fucking talk to each other. Organize yourselves as customers, propose that everyone tip evenly and see how that goes. A goal IS implementing crowdfunding very similar to Kickstarter or whatever. Say the goal is 500 and someone tips 50 for a menu item that ALSO contributes towards the goal... Encourage 9 of the other 20 users to do the same and the project reaches completion! Yay! This is the equivalent of donating towards a Kickstarter project and getting your nice little donation reward. If the project doesn't hit goal, the people do NOT get their money back as they are *donations*, it's a bummer but hell, at least you got your reward and the workers got compensated for the hard work they put in.

Participating is only a risk if you view it as such, I like to view it as being a decent person.

The problem with that analogy is there you are comparing with goods 'arcade games' that can be used only by 1 person at a time, whereas a livefeed on the other hand can be used by a looot of people at a time.

This is why you conveniently left out the part about the person wandering around the arcade trying to find loose tokens and watching everyone else play. This is the majority of room population, not the other way around like I think your image of the arcade is. I think you're picturing tons of polite people lined up at the machine to get their tokens and have a jolly good time when in reality it's a vast minority actually at the machine with the rest of the arcade swarming with people lurking around and waiting for the chance to snag some free entertainment.

If you are interested in that subject, here is one of the most interesting video I have been given the chance of seeing: http://www.ted.com/talks/philip_evans_h ... anguage=en and of course let me know what you think

Thank you for the link, I will watch it when I have time. Without perspective of having watched the talk yet, my response is that while distribution costs may be low (which isn't necessarily true given shipping/manufacturing fees for physical content if models choose to do that, etc.), the same amount of labor is going in. Camming is not cheap. Lighting, ideal sound equipment, quality webcam, quality editing software for content, solid internet connection, costuming, props, etc. Some models have the bonus of having their customers assist them with these factors, some do not, either way it's coming out of their paycheck. What we manufacture is creative content, the only tangible items we distribute are videos, photos or any other physical content we choose to sell. Everything else is creatively manifested but *absolutely* comes at a cost. Dancing is exhausting, keeping up with a racing chat and PMs is draining, dealing with dead nights and still putting in the hours and a smiling face is grueling, dealing with abusers and beggars is painful; these are all costs. As a graphic designer and artist, I am used to not being compensated directly equivalent to the hours put in... but the off-cam business planning, designing, etc. is rarely even recognized for models. We have to be friends, sexual "partners", entertainers, managers, entrepreneurs, designers, models, and more all in one. Hours spent away from our other jobs (those of us that have them) is another factor to consider as well. It's very unfortunate that our customers don't recognize this and I hope you, as a customer, can take all of the behind-the-scenes work that keeps your favorite model on your screen into factor when considering tipping that model.

What if the goal is refunded in 30% of cases (and then you do not have to perform it) but on average reached 75% faster, don't you think it is a win-win?

No and no. If I averaged 3/4 of my goal most nights and hit it 70% of the time, I am still compensated for my time if I don't hit goal. If the goal is not hit on 30% of those nights, I put in the same time and effort and leave with nothing. If on average I put in 4-6 hours a night and this new system cut it down to 2-4 hours, I lose a substantial amount of face-time on cam, potential new traffic and make the window for people to actually join my shows significantly smaller. So, essentially, I guarantee nights that I will not make any money at all and I reduce my chances for business expansion. This is a lose-lose in my book. Like Tallula said, all those little tips add up and even doing 3 consecutive nights hitting NO goals and getting barely any tips helps put food on the table, taking those tokens back may not seem like much but it adds up REALLY quickly.

I just feel like models spend a lot of time away from camera actually managing their business and that we could cut through this alloted time by proposing you relevant and efficient tools. Any particular idea on this?

I have mods and bots to help with a lot of my repetitive work. Here are some things that I think would be helpful and could streamline our jobs (and I'm sure other models can help with this list, this is just off the top of my head):

- Dispel the stigma that tipping towards goal is paying for services *not* already provided.
- Don't hesitate to talk to other members about collaborating in a group tip for your model to reach the goal you all want.
- Help us report and remove stolen and pirated content.
- Help us get scammers and those annoying skype/model bots out of our rooms.
- Tip us.

 

[AmberCutie]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

@TallulaBlythe: thanks I think you made me realize something

Since the beginning we are confronting, and I do not understand why: on my side I feel like I am trying to bring something that would be good for both sides, users & models. I may be a naive boy, but I believe interests of models and sites' operators are aligned: we do not make money without you, you make less without us (generally), and the more you make, the best models it brings hence customers come too. Etc. etc. virtuous circle that everyone knows about.

Yet, you are gently treating me as if I was trying to bring the biggest rip-off feature models have ever seen in this industry

Is it because you think that when the two options exist, Group Tip and Tip, then everyone will stop "tipping for real" and start Group Tipping instead, even some of your regulars etc?

If I would tell you that the Group Tip is a chatroom feature that you could choose to activate or not by simply ticking a box, would you mind it so much? Potentially test it out to see if it works better?


By the way, Tallula I was by no way trying to mean that small tips do not count for the models. I am actually trying to multiply the number of users doing small tips by enabling them to do it together. What I meant is that for the User making a small tip does not look like meaning: you are actually spending money and most likely wont change anything to the situation for the next 15min with your effort.

Regards,
Gérald

If both options exist, and the members know this, yet the model declines to use it, they will probably be upset at her about it.

As Deez mentioned, in a free show environment, the entertainment lies more than half in the time during the countdown, and about half in the actual show the countdown is for. Models would feel very slighted to not get paid for the "meantime" if the ultimate goal fell short and everyone got their tokens back.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

The big problem here is

we assume that what refrains them the most from tipping is the lack of timeline and high risk of "wasting your tip", resulting in no collective action even though everyone knows it'd be necessary to reach goals.

The whole idea is based on this assumption. Before you develop it any more, you need to go out, do some market research and find out if that's actually the case. Because without it, your entire idea crumbles and everything else doesn't matter anyway.

Gut feeling after camming for over 4 years is that the # of people who would actually feel this way, and be more inclined to tip than before, is going to be outweighed by the amount of tokens models will lose everytime they fail to hit a goal.

I agree with Lolli here. This a pretty key thing to know and I am not convinced it's big factor so you'd need to do testing (preferable) or market research. Which is why I continue to be lukewarm on the idea.

Still I don't understand the resistant to the idea. It is optional. There are lot of things that some models do but others don't do (e.g. groups, public cumshows, privates, anal, sell b/g videos) that piss some small number of members off. Why not using group/tip option would cause more upset members than any of the stuff I listed is beyond me. :?

DeezNa said

Like I said in my original response, people who are tipping are showing gratuity for services already rendered. They may have hopes of reaching a goal (trust me, models want to hit goals too...), but their tips are paying for what has already been provided, not what is yet to be achieved

While this is true some of the time, I suspect most of the time when there is cumshow countdown run this isn't true. Example, a gorgeous model who rarely does public show cumshow has a 1000 out of 5000 tokens remaining on her countdow. I may pop into her room a give her 100 tokens immediately, clearly I am not paying her for past service causes I just entered her room. I am interested in one thing seeing her cum,and often as not I'd like to see it happen as soon as possible, cause I don't particularly enjoy hanging in her room. It is possible this feature would make me tip the 100 conditionally earlier as opposed to waiting until the end.

Plenty of models already use short term timer when tips are slow. "1/2 off videos, spanks, flashes shots, one armed push ups (I am guessing here DeezNA for the next 5 minutes, is pretty common tactic used by camgirls. Let say you do 100 group/tokens for a flash in the next 5 minutes and three guys tip a total of 50 tokens. You can decide to not do it or take the tokens, but you are no worse than doing a 1/2 sale for flashes and in many cases the model is better off.

Amber said.

As Deez mentioned, in a free show environment, the entertainment lies more than half in the time during the countdown, and about half in the actual show the countdown is for. Models would feel very slighted to not get paid for the "meantime" if the ultimate goal fell short and everyone got their tokens back.

I agree but the ratio varies tremendously in some cases for some models its 90% hanging out 10% show, for others its 100% show.

Still I doubt if anybody, but sadists, enjoys the portion of the show where the visibly upset camgirls looks at the room and says guys this is killing my camscore,/need to pay my rent if I don't get X tokens in the next 5 or 10 minutes I am going to have to log off. This is actually the one time where having a refund option would be appealing. If I have been one of say 5 tippers out 200 viewers, I am pretty disgusted with process so I want to see others contribute first before I contribute more. Meanwhile the freeloaders are thinking ya I'd put in my 20 tokens but I don't think she is going to make her goals so I'll save them. As a result maybe one person tips and the model logs off pissed.

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

one armed push ups

I couldn't do that shit if you had a gun to my head, I'm out of fuckin shape, I admit it.

Still I doubt if anybody, but sadists, enjoys the portion of the show where the visibly upset camgirls looks at the room and says guys this is killing my camscore,/need to pay my rent if I don't get X tokens in the next 5 or 10 minutes I am going to have to log off.

I hate to break the model/general populace barrier here but this happens almost every night a lot of models, just usually internally. If it's so bad that it breaks to the exterior, the model should have logged off already. No one enjoys those nights and when that tactic is used intentionally (I call it "guilt-tipping" or "tip-baiting"), it can work for some but it really doesn't feel right. Trust me, I don't think it would ever work as a male despite me hearing about other models doing it all the time, and I don't think I could ethically live with that.

Keeping a smile on our faces through everything (personal "IRL" issues, health issues, traumatic room experiences, slow/stressful night, camscore/ranking, droughts, etc.) is one of the hardest parts of the job in my opinion. I rarely get tipped for that and it's one thing I like tipping models the most for. Leave a little tipnote saying, "I know this may not help hit your goal but you've been busting ass keeping it together tonight and you deserve this. Things will get better soon."

 

[AmberCutie]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Still I don't understand the resistant to the idea. It is optional. There are lot of things that some models do but others don't do (e.g. groups, public cumshows, privates, anal, sell b/g videos) that piss some small number of members off. Why not using group/tip option would cause more upset members than any of the stuff I listed is beyond me. :?

The resistance is being called "greedy" or "token whore" because people would likely see it as the model wanting to keep every token regardless of if the show happens. And while that's true, it sucks to be called names for wanting to be compensated for the time we've already spent conversing and flirting and wiggling our bits trying to reach the goal.

Amber said.

As Deez mentioned, in a free show environment, the entertainment lies more than half in the time during the countdown, and about half in the actual show the countdown is for. Models would feel very slighted to not get paid for the "meantime" if the ultimate goal fell short and everyone got their tokens back.

I agree but the ratio varies tremendously in some cases for some models its 90% hanging out 10% show, for others its 100% show.

Still I doubt if anybody, but sadists, enjoys the portion of the show where the visibly upset camgirls looks at the room and says guys this is killing my camscore,/need to pay my rent if I don't get X tokens in the next 5 or 10 minutes I am going to have to log off. This is actually the one time where having a refund option would be appealing. If I have been one of say 5 tippers out 200 viewers, I am pretty disgusted with process so I want to see others contribute first before I contribute more. Meanwhile the freeloaders are thinking ya I'd put in my 20 tokens but I don't think she is going to make her goals so I'll save them. As a result maybe one person tips and the model logs off pissed.

I agree that this concept would work for the girl who merely sits on her booty and hardly interacts with her room while waiting for the show countdown to be reached. I guess it's just not getting raving reviews and encouragement here because I don't think those sort of models are on ACF. The majority of us work our social tails off during countdowns to keep people entertained and stimulated in a different way. So different that many don't even realize the job we've pulled off!

And in the case of the girl who has been online so long she's getting mopey about her camscore... if the general populace starts to realize there's a precedent for "just wait... if we don't tip regular tips, she'll give in and change it to the "group tip" option any minute now"... well, that ain't good! Just like I try not to set a precedent for doing a show after the countdown hasn't been met unless it's really close. I don't want to train the cheapskates and freeloaders that patience will result in a cheaper/free show.

 

[Teagan]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

we do not make money without you,

This is not true in the slightest. The members buy the tokens and you get your cut. You have been paid and made your money. We camgirls only get paid IF that member decides to spend them on us. Or in your scenario if they decide to spend them on us AND goal is met. Regardless of if we make a penny or not you as the site owner will have already made your cut of money off of the member. Obviously the more girls you have working for you the more likely members will buy tokens to spend, and more likely more members will join the more models there are in theory but plain and simple us making money does not effect you. Members can buy tokens all day long but never spend them on a single person there.


Camgirls hustle for those tips to a show. We worked for them whether the goal is met or not and deserve them not to be refunded. Hustling is dancing, talking, stripping, or whatever it might be for that particular model. Its work none the less and at the least it is our time we are spending there that deserves compensation. Goal or no goal and it being meant or not. She/He has worked for them and should not have to worry that the freeloaders aren't compelled enough that day to finish the countdown and therefore her work and time have now been for nothing and everyone got a refund.

What you have suggested trying is basically a Gold Show with freeloaders added in. Im sorry but why in the hell would I switch to a site that adds in freeloaders when I can choose one without them and they don't get shit from me for free? That does not benefit me. It does not benefit those who tipped into the show. The ones who dont like tipping because of freeloaders and instead prefer privates or group. It only benefits cheap asses who spent not a dime and get to watch anyway. And why in hell would I be interested in that? Part of the appeal of streamate is that freeloaders dont get a single thing. You're taking away that appeal.

You have offered no incentive to models and I dont think you get that. You say you feel were being confrontational but we are just trying to be honest. I understand you feel you are offering something for models and members..but you aren't. Your plan only benefits people who are cheap or people who are freeloading from us. Models arent gonna go for that.

 

[Gen]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

You have offered no incentive to models and I dont think you get that. You say you feel were being confrontational but we are just trying to be honest. I understand you feel you are offering something for models and members..but you aren't. Your plan only benefits people who are cheap or people who are freeloading from us. Models arent gonna go for that.

This! I think this takes away the appeal of Streamate (where non-paying members see nothing), and MFC (where you get to keep the tokens even if the show doesn't happen). I like the idea of shows happening more quickly - but I can do that on Streamate, and it ensures that only paying members are seeing it. I guess I'm just not quite seeing the benefit for models?

 

[weirdbr]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

By the way, customers that aren't paying can be actual customers as FB and Google remind us everyday.

Just as an aside - that is a bad example - on both cases, users are the product being 'sold': your social/search/private data leads to better advertisement targeting (plus, they're selling your eyeballs). The real customers for the free products from both Google and Facebook are the advertisers.

WiFi isn't free, it's an advertising ploy. The WiFi is paid for by everyone who bought the dollar fries and Big Macs in the past. If you think a luxury commodity like the internet is free, you are as delusional as everyone who comes into our rooms thinking they are entitled to our time with no compensation. THIS is the problem, right here: NOTHING IS FREE. If you hang out in McDonald's and leech WiFi every day you WILL get kicked out because you are NOT A PAYING CUSTOMER. Thank you for providing that analogy, it's a very good one.

I like how people think any of that stuff is free... For example, free wifi provided by a random telecom company? It's only 'free' because those companies are benefiting from it (for example, Verizon was caught rewriting the web pages on the fly to track you, so they could sell better advertisement - in some cases they were caught injecting advertisements on pages that didn't have it). The 'free' Starbucks wifi? It's managed by Google these days (at least in the US) and they benefit from it quite a bit since people will see their ads everywhere, will go to youtube.. And I bet Starbucks gets paid by Google for the 'privilege' of offering wifi on all their stores.

There is a phrase I once heard which can be rewritten to match this context: 'if you cant spot the product in the room, you are it'.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

For the freeloaders, I think a nice way to tackle the "issue" - if I may say - would be to push this crowdfunding logic a bit further: Freeloaders would be targeted with video advertisements (Youtube like) and for each ad displayed you would earn a fraction of a token, resulting in a steady wage for you... out of the freeloaders. Said in another way, freeloaders would participate - against their will - in actively crowdfunding the show through advertisement! Indeed, they'd be more than welcome to tip a token and see no more ads for a time.


I am sharing all of my reasoning up-to-date with you, please do not hesitate giving any feedback and criticizing if you think it is a stupid / fucked up logic.

To me this is actually a lot more interesting idea than group tip. I wish you'd expand on it.

You said that only 7% of the people on chaturabate have tokens. Of those only a fraction tip for a particular show, which leads me to conclude that roughly 2-3% of the maximum number viewer actually tip for a given cam session. It seems to me increasing this number is the real key to make a site successful for both operators and models.

In general there are two ways of getting higher conversion rate from freemium to premium model. One is to make premium service really compelling. The other way is to make the free service, so fucking frustrating to use that you pay just to avoid the being pissed off. The foks at Zynga (Farmville etc), King (Candy Crush),and the file hosting sites have all done a good job in this. Especially Candy Crush, who've gotten a lot of people to pay for a free game who swore they never would.

Personally I'd like to see MFC/Chaturabate guest/basics who've been freeloaders for more than year sit through 1 minute of video commercials for every minute of show. Oh and share some of the ad revenue with the models.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

To me this is actually a lot more interesting idea than group tip. I wish you'd expand on it.

You said that only 7% of the people on chaturabate have tokens. Of those only a fraction tip for a particular show, which leads me to conclude that roughly 2-3% of the maximum number viewer actually tip for a given cam session. It seems to me increasing this number is the real key to make a site successful for both operators and models.

In general there are two ways of getting higher conversion rate from freemium to premium model. One is to make premium service really compelling. The other way is to make the free service, so fucking frustrating to use that you pay just to avoid the being pissed off. The foks at Zynga (Farmville etc), King (Candy Crush),and the file hosting sites have all done a good job in this. Especially Candy Crush, who've gotten a lot of people to pay for a free game who swore they never would.

Personally I'd like to see MFC/Chaturabate guest/basics who've been freeloaders for more than year sit through 1 minute of video commercials for every minute of show. Oh and share some of the ad revenue with the models.

Yea sure, actually if you want to think about the free cam model those sites offer quite a few public information that allows sort of a "sneak peek".

He in the case of Chaturbate, you can open the "users" tab in the chat, and see the list of connected people with different colors. Meaning of those colors can be found on their blog, here it is:

--> Red = moderators
--> Purple = User who tipped > 1000 tokens in past 24 hours
--> Light Purple = User who tipped > 250 tokens in past 24 hours
--> Blue = User who tipped > 50 tokens in past 24 hours
--> Light Blue = User who currently owns tokens on his account but spend between 0 and 49 tokens in the last 24 hours
--> Dark = User who is logged in but does not currently own any token. Please note that he could have never bought any token, or have been purple several times in his life..
--> Guests = Users who are no logged in. Please note that they may have an account of any color and not be logged in, or be a total freeloader who never created an account..

Please note that colors do not indicate for which show they have tipped, so in a particular chatroom I cannot count what % of users did tip. Yet we can kinda count what % of users did not tip for the show. Also if you add up it wont be 100% exactly because numbers change while I am extracting the data, I don't know how to automate it.

So now I just went in the 3 most popular rooms of Chaturbate and collected those info:

Room 1:

~2900 viewers, of which:

--> 1660 were guests: ~57%
--> 1023 were Black: ~35%
--> 198 were Light Blue: ~7%
--> 25 were Blue
--> 4 Light Purple
--> 1 Purple
--> 2 Red


Room 2:

~2600 viewers, of which:

--> 1450 were guests: ~56%
--> 997 were Black: ~38%
--> 154 were Light Blue: ~6%
--> 13 were Blue
--> 7 Light Purple
--> 1 Purple
--> 1 Red

Room 3:

~1800 viewers, of which:

--> 974 were guests: ~54%
--> 704 were Black: ~39%
--> 87 were Light Blue: ~5%
--> 11 were Blue
--> 0 Light Purple
--> 1 Purple
--> 2 Red


So now of course, each model caters to its own audience so those percentages must vary from one model to another, depending on the type of show and on the popularity of the chatroom (maybe free loaders mostly go in most popular rooms with "sexual performance centric shows", while big tippers tend to hang out more in chatrooms with "personality centric shows").

Yet, from what I have notice - feel free to double check it is very easy -, number of guests is always > 50%, number of Blacks is always > 35%.

This leaves room for less than 15% of the viewers being potential tippers in the chatroom they are currently in. And as you can see from my data, it is closer to 7-8%.


Now, the advertisement idea.

Everyone knows that Chaturbate makes part of his money from banners, so making money out of ads of a free cam site is validated.

Now personally, I do not much like those disgusting banners, I think pay-per-minute cam sites are much better off without it: more beautiful, better user experience, more space to promote the chatrooms. Plus, as the banners give to users a less good experience it means it can push away from the site some potential big tippers.

On the other hand, you want to be making money out of the people who never buy a token because they cost you bandwith / infrastructure etc.

Hence the idea of delivering those ads on the video player only to the users who already proved they do not buy any token:
--> You do not push away potential big tippers
--> You do not lose space on site
--> You keep everything beautiful, and bother only the free users

Those ads would be displayed as Youtube does it. It does not have to very video commercials though (those are expensive to create), but simply small inserts/banners popping on your video player (down location) promoting the usual stuff for adult sites (or other stuff if we can find mainstream advertisers). You can even - through algorithm - pop the ads when people are about to get off, just, you know, to really annoy them

As it is directly decreasing the quality of the model's broadcast (whereas banners have an indirect effect on user experience in comparison), I think it would be nice to make it so that:
1) Models can choose whether or not to activate advertisement in their room
2) If ads are allowed, as it is done on the model's livefeed and targeted at the audience the model is entertaining directly, I think it would be fair that models are compensated for it.

Of course, one should not think this would be the new eldorado, if you look at costs to display 1000 banners on a porn tube site, without targetting a special country / audience / good spot on site, it is actually very low. Around $0,2 for 1000.

Let say video ads are better and cost $1 for 1000, of which we give 30% to the model: 6 tokens for each 1000 ads displayed.

So in the case of a model having 500 viewers targeted by ads in her chatroom, for which we display 1 ad every 10 minutes, it results in 3000 ads displayed per hour.

==> 18 tokens in an hour so ~$1

Well it does not look much, but I am not an advertisement expert: those ads might be worth more, displayed more often, sold at a more expensive price because targeted (US viewers etc.)

But built as a quick example, $2 / hour / 1000 viewers for a model looks like very reasonable. It is not huge, but it can add up nicely overtime. What do you think?


EDIT: as HiGirlsRHot said, ads can also be used to convert users into paying. For example, I can display them a phone number to text or call. Texting it costs you $2 and result in an immediate 10 tokens tip in the room / calling it costs you $2 / min but starts a yellow wall in room. For example.

 

[Gerald75]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

Sorry for double-posting, it is to keep the two different ideas separeted "crowdfunding" and "video advertisement". I do not mean to write at length - not so cool to read - but on the other hand it is hard to provide details in a very concise way.

@Teagan_Chase:

What you say is true, we make money when we bill customers for tokens, and you make money when they actually spend tokens on you. So there is an interval which is in "our favor".

Yet, if people buys tokens but do not spend them on models, this is not very sustainable for us... they do not have to buy new tokens, models won't make money and log off, resulting in customers going away etc. pretty soon we will be out of business.

On the other hand, you could go independent and make money without us bringing the traffic - but this is generally harder -.


@Weirdr:

You are right, I tried to draw a parallel but it was not the best one.

As for what I call "free", it is simply when there is no monetary transaction between the user of the service and the provider of it. Of course, it means that it is being monetized in another way and comes at other costs: seeing ads being the most common.


@AmerCutie:

I assume this is your forum here? If so, well played, it is a lot of nice people you have gathered here for discussing

I think I now understand better the "wide spectrum of performers", basically one could say that models range from "personality intensive appeal" to "performance intensive appeal" (any better phrasing for this?!).

"Personality intensive chatrooms" are catering to users who want to hang-out in the room because the model is a nice/fun/smart/interesting/beautiful person, it is more about companionship & discussion than sexual performances. This type is apparently the most common for the models here on the forum.

"Performance intensive chatrooms" are catering to users who want to see live sexual performances. A good example of this would be the popular rooms on Chaturbate with sexual stuff going on all the time, lots of viewers and the model did not even fill his profile.

Of course, models can be doing a bit of the two, and users can be liking the two as well.

I agree with you when you say that the Crowdfunding feature "Group Tip" is better suited for models going "performance intensive" with a lot of sexual activity.

Yet, I feel that we are not all the same page about what we call "Goal" - and you must know better than me what to call a goal -. I will take a real life example to illustrate what I mean: I just went into chaturbate and copied this Topic in a room with 900 viewers:

"Boobs flash at every goal, top off at 9 goals, completely naked @ 17- Tip 200 for pussy flash ... You Like You Tip (^ . ^)"

Goal = 100 tokens here (to get boob flash), for me. I do not refer to the objective "completely naked" when thinking of a "goal".

As I see it, I could say I am interested but its kinda slow in here, so I dont know if it is going to happen soon. We are 900, ok, but I do not know if others mean to tip with me, on the other hand we are maybe 10-12 potential tippers hesitating like me. With Group Tip feature I get to think:

- OK no big deal, let's Group Tip 10 tokens and see.
- a 3 min timer starts, and everyone can join the Group Tip
- we reach 100 in 1min30 because some others were interested in tipping, and could put their money at no risk because if we do not reach boob flash we are refunded.

==> I think it's great for the model, as it was really slow in her room and she was texting out of boredom. These 100 tokens are now HERS and will never be refunded.

Maybe we got to 1100 tokens, 11 goals, and we try Group Tipping the 12th and there are only 20 tokens after the 3min timer. The model chooses its too low for a boob flash, the 20 tokens are refunded and she is bored she wants to log off.

--> The 20 tokens are refunded, but the 1100 she made through Group Tips are earned. Even though we did not reach the objective of getting her naked, there is no question on this: none of the 11 goals reached will be refunded !

Regards,
Gérald

 

[DeezNA]

Re: StartUp Weekend Team - Question About Camming On Token S

If you think 100 tokens is expensive... you're kinda perpetuating this problem. I don't really have much interest in working for a site whose management caters to the idea that 100 tokens is a LARGE number. That's not even a pack of cigarettes in my pocket. If $10 is expensive to you, you're ON THE WRONG SITE.

Just tip your model! I don't see why refunds should play a part anywhere outside of someone being scammed and this is really starting to sound like the thousands of voices crying out that they got cheated out of a strip show because we didn't hit goal because they tipped 10 tokens out of the 1000 token goal. Yeah, sorry you lost your dollar dude, but if you think about it... if the goal was only half met (500 tokens) the model actually lost $25 in that deal. Yet the consumer getting their $1 back is of more concern? For fuck's sake...

It's a little insulting to think that my viewers would be getting x hours of my time, affection, services, etc. paying me fairly for my services, likely not hitting goal, getting ALL my tips for that goal interval taken away and then MY tips of appreciation going to another model (who would potentially suffer the same cycle). This could actually lead to more complex levels of freeloading and manipulation by tippers intentionally getting VERY close to goal and then colluding to NOT tip so they can get as much free shit as possible without actually spending a dime and getting it all refunded for a free show. Not very inviting and doesn't solve the "if other people are tipping for me I don't have to buy tokens" mentality this is supposed to address.

As for ads, Chaturbate offers an option to remove all ads by becoming a Premium member, not a lot of people choose this option but it's ALWAYS there. With video ads, I see no reason why (unless you are a master-class coder) some AdBlock type app, if not AdBlock itself, would not be developed immediately to counter this and thus negate everything it is in place to do.

Rather than making a business plan of "let's make shit really fucking annoying and force people to pay for content that DOESN'T suck", I would much rather follow a "let's produce quality content and reward those who pay for it" business model. But that's just me.


Here's a thought.

Why don't you install an option where when we hit the goal and I do my show, my video feed blurs out (like people's faces who didn't sign release forms on the show Cops) for everyone who DIDN'T tip that evening. Then you can either squint real hard and try to see me or tip to get your screen un-blurred for a set fee (chosen by the model) after the goal has been met.