Stoya has publicly accused James Deen of rape

[Teagan]

Im not concerned she is putting another performer at risk because as already said this is not the first reports of him assaulting women, and since Stoya made it more public the best way she could it shows a pattern of his behavior. So what she's actually doing is potentially helping other girls mitigate their risk by being around him. I dont have to worry about performers with her because she is not being accused of violating another human beings body repeatedly. That's not gender bias in any way or "girl powah." (Yes how condescending) It's past the point of speculation at this point. Like I and others said with rape you can have a mountain of evidence and all the man has to say is "she asked for it" and he would never even be charged. With cases that are mostly impossible to prove you can't just excuse it away and say "well they arent found guilty in court so it must not be true" for the reasons already stated throughout this thread. You do look at patterns and behavior and other things. And we have all of that. That's evidence. So fuck people being upset that she announced it on twitter (what a petty thing to pick on), fuck people who wanna insinuate she did it for PR (how in the world has crying rape even helped anyones career?), and fuck trying to worry about a mans career who very obviously has a history of assault. Just fuck man. It's not about women with women, or personal emotional experiences some have, or anything else, it's about an assailant and the truth becoming more public and survivors of him speaking out. That's it.

Now i can see maybe, just maybe, some people questioning if this was just a simple he said she said with one vs the other situation, however that is not what we have here anymore. This is several women now coming out adding to those who have in the past already. So unless you're going to call several women liars all at once you can no longer use excuses or phrases like PR crap, maybe he's in on it too crap, or other inane nonsense that doesnt even logically make a lick of sense. Again we are past that point.

 

[Mila_]

@FinleyBlake I understand if you are a victim of a sexual attack this topic probably upsets you because it hits too close to home. I apologize if anything I say makes you uncomfortable, but evidence is absolutely necessary when you claim something that will have such a profound impact on the life of another person.

If you ask someone reasonable to support your cause, or to "stand" with you, the reasonable person will ask for proof that what you are saying is true, or at least some sort of evidence. He will study this evidence and reach his own conclusion, he might then choose to "stand" with you or choose not to. But you cant expect people to back you just because you said something. Words are easy and are often empty.

This is an extreme example but let's roll with it: I do not "stand" with creationism and against evolution just because it says so in a book, I do not stand with creationism just because important leaders say it is true. And I do not support creationism just because millions of people believe in it all around the world. I need proof to believe in creationism and nobody has ever presented me with evidence to back the claim. So I remain skeptical.

So don't ask me to believe in someone's claim just because they tell me that is what happened. Words are not enough for me. I can give her the benefit of the doubt, the same I give the person she is accusing, I can put myself in her shoes, think about what it would be like if it actually did happen, and sympathize with her situation, I can also think about the probabilities that her claim is true and find that there are good chances. But I refuse to put another human being's head on a pike without convincing evidence. As long as she doesn't produce it I will question the validity of her claim.

I understand rapes are hard to prove if you destroy the evidence and many women do because of shame or fear. So instead of going straight to the police or the hospital they take a shower and go to bed. But when they do this they need to understand they are not going to be able to prove their claim 10 years down the road. They can't expect people to simply go along with it once they choose to come forward.

Any crime is hard to prove but there is always circumstantial evidence. When someone gets rid of the evidence that a crime was committed, taints or destroys the evidence, or even fucks with the scene, there are consequences, but with rape everything goes out the window. There are twisted people out there who rape, and there are also twisted people out there who lie about it.

Edit: @Teagan I agree with you that the more people come forward with similar claims the more validity Stoya's allegations will have. And if enough people come forward maybe one of them will have evidence of it. If not, we can still treat it as a circumstantial evidence, the fact that there are many poeple willing to testify the same thing happened to them. This is why I said that I am glad I kept a distance before making a judgement because I believe more in Stoya's words now than I did a couple of days ago. Still, groupthink is very powerful and there have been instances in which many people claim something happened and all of them were lying, so I don't treat this pattern as anything close to conclusive.

All I am trying to say here is that we should not jump to conclusions, even if there are 2 or 3 girls that also claim they were attacked by Deen. Because we might be mistaken and we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt until actual evidence is produced. I will be interested in seeing what other people have to say about it and how they present their stories.

 

[LuckySmiles]

It has nothing to do with concern or lack thereof for fellow sex workers. If a high ranking cam model said, "Do not let "happymember432 in your room, he is a child abuser." Without any further information you would be instantly skeptical of her intentions, was he a big tipper of hers? did something go wrong between them two? Especially if it were on social media, and you didn't know them on a personal level. And you wouldn't be wrong to do so.

If the same person instead said, "Do not talk to happymember432 we did a friendly meetup and he assaulted me." You might be more inclined to be sympathetic and cautious but also question their intentions. And you wouldn't be wrong to do so.

@supermila is right. It's a sensitive topic and I get why people react the way they do.
Instead of attacking one another and making it personal Let's assume instead for a second, that every member of this thread has firsthand experience with rape, would people still be arguing in the same way? Does that automatically make disagreed points more valid in your mind? Because you don't know.

The problem when people use personal stories to reinforce disagreeing points is you're immediately dismissing someone else by assuming, "you just don't get it because you don't share my life experience." That's a big assumption. I've done it before and work on breaking the habit.

--------

I wanted to post more the other day but got too overwhelmed and said fuck it.

it was this:
My problem was with people saying social media is the best/only way to handle this and the dangerous message that sends for victims. If a woman chose to put her attacker publicly on social media, and then months later also decided to take it to court. Maybe video surfaces, who knows, and that motivated a court case her statement will be make her case more difficult by bringing a whole twitter account into question. Her tweets become part of the case. "So you claimed my client, raped in this tweet on Sep 1 2015 correct? He is your ex boyfriend correct? On February 15th 2015 you have another tweet saying "I hate when people you love let you down".....

Do you see the problem? My other concern is for people, inspired by this using Twitter as their first/best option to handle it. What happens if they don't have 10s of thousands of followers? What happens if the tweet gets lost on a day something else is "Trending"
Now you have a victim potentially home alone with no face to face support. I can't imaging the pain of someone feeling like no one cared about what they had to say because Kim Kardasians something something happened.

Stop assuming everyone who disagrees doesn't care about victims. That doesn't help victims.

 

[SarahLove]

I was just going to keep an eye on this thread from the sidelines (as obviously I do with many subjects, sorry I don't post as much as most other girls here, I admit I'm a bad lurker) but I keep seeing people mention the incredibly small amount of rape accusations that turn out to be false and feel it's an inaccurate claim and assumption that these numbers are true, and doesn't justify always believing the accuser.

The percentage of women who have lied about rape is so low that it's not worth dismissing even one woman who comes forward because the chances are slim to none that she's lying. No offense but the "women lie about rape1!1!1!1!1" mentality is propaganda perpetrated by a chauvinistic rape culture.

Believe women. If we don't believe women (or anyone who is raped for that matter) then NOTHING is going to change

false accusations are made A LOT less than people think and I think it's hard to deny that we live in a culture that tends to victim-blame a lot of the time

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false

A section of the article I think should be considered

What we know is that we don't know. We should not presume that every rape victim is telling the truth because it would make it easier for victims to come forward. Nor should we presume that every rape accusation has a 50 percent chance of being false. We should look at the facts in each case and judge them with the knowledge that some women do lie about rape -- for revenge, to cover up some problem in their own lives, to get attention and sympathy from others. And also with the knowledge that men lie, too, violating their victims a second time in order to cover up their crimes. And that while men have gone to jail for rapes they did not commit, many other men have avoided the jail time they deserved for terrible crimes against women.

We hear about women falsely accusing men of sexual assault constantly these days, so to pretend it doesn't happen frequently and just choose to always "stand by" the woman in every situation, that's incredibly naive and unfair.

Lying happens on both sides of this equation, for various reasons. It puts us all in an incredibly hard position

Feminists would like to rectify that unfairness by treating rape accusations as presumptively true, making it easier for victims to come forward. That's understandable. But there's a risk that this makes it easier for false accusations to get through the system, resulting in destroyed lives for men such as Brian Banks. Men's-rights activists would like to make it harder for innocent men to get caught in a web of lies, so they want rape accusations to be interrogated with deep suspicion. But treating rape victims as possible or likely liars may make it harder for them to go forward, leaving rapists free to stalk their next victim.

So cases that are reported need to be investigated and proven, need to have some standard way to be dealt with to clear up the gray areas and the inaccurate assumptions.

So as for this

Also what's proof to you? Her coming out about him isnt good enough for you, so is it DNA found on her instead? Cops looking into it? Him admitting it? Him being arrested for it? A judge finding him guilty?

There needs to at least be a mediation with an objective third party that can listen to all the details of both sides of the story and make a judgment call about the legitimacy of the claim, I think. Usually that's a judge/jury. Obviously in as many cases as possible, DNA or physical evidence or immediate witness testimony should be included. But at the very least, not just taking one person's word over another via social media. The accuser has some responsibility to bring some sort of proof to the table after blasting the accused's name. As supermila said, the burden of proof is on Stoya in this case.

Rape sucks. Obviously. And I hope that justice comes down where it is deserved in this situation and in any other cases. I guess we just have to find a better means of providing and guaranteeing that justice. I know that assuming one way or the other isn't the right way.

 

[Teagan]

Yes it should be a judge or jury but as pointed out even with a ton of evidence rape cases almost never get to even the point of arrest let alone a trial. So when you're dealing with circumstances like that you have to look at more.

 

[Finley]

Something to keep in mind is that the judicial system in the U.S. is flawed and not always right. They are plenty wrong, both ways. So a not guilty verdict in a court does not mean that the person didn't commit a crime, and that goes both ways, lots of people for lots of different crimes are convicted even though they are innocent.

Also, they aren't that fast with amending laws or the way they investigate cases. Did you know that marital rape was legal up until 1993? Yeah.

Anyway, I'm backing out of this thread now.

 

[JickyJuly]

Ultimately, no one asked you to stand with anyone. You are absolutely allowed to remain neutral. But, when you question why others are choosing to believe one side instead of "giving him the benefit of the doubt", you're not neutral and shouldn't claim to be any less judging than anyone else.

 

[Mila_]

Actually, she did ask me to stand for this when she told me to stop asking for fucking evidence. If she demands I believe in what Stoya is saying without questioning it, she is. Which is why I wrote that post explaining why I don't stand with anyone that doesn't provide proof for their claims.

On a second note, asking people to give another human being the benefit of the doubt before skinning him alive does not mean I am judging Stoya. I do believe what she says could be true. I just don't think I should accept is as unquestionable and then destroy another person based on hearsay.

 

[Finley]

Whoa hold up. Saying what I said is not asking you to stand for anyone. Please don't put words in my mouth. If I said "you have to stand with Stoya" that's one thing, but I didn't. I didn't even demand you believe what Stoya is saying, I was TELLING you that the chance of getting any evidence is fucking slim to none, because in all the rape cases ever, a very large percentage have no evidence. You're going to be waiting a long time for proof to appease you if there isn't anything other than a persons word.

 

[Mila_]

Fuck. Enough with the word evidence. Seriously. What fucking evidence?

If you ask me not to ask for evidence then yeah, you are asking me to believe what Stoya is saying without questioning it or... you are asking me and other skeptical people like me to ignore this case altogether. Both give Stoya the upper hand. It is: support Stoya or STFU. I will not support Stoya without evidence, and I will not STFU just because feelings.

I have already said in /every/ post I have made on this thread that I realize getting evidence is not so simple in cases of rape. That does not mean we should only rely on gossip, or tweets to accuse someone of rape, to smear his name, and burn him at the stake. And if you believe it is sufficient proof you are no better than the people who say a rape victim deserves it because she was wearing a skirt two inches too short.

What you propose is dangerous. What do you suppose should happen in a trial? Since "fucking evidence" is so hard to get, should we simply convict any suspect of rape just because a woman accused him of attacking her? What about other crimes with little evidence? Should we forego trials completely and just skip to the part where we put people in jail? Because it is starting to sound like North Korea to me

 

[Finley]

girl powah.

 

[Teagan]

girl powah.

Honestly that's all you can do at his point.

The analogies and assumptions now being made are so absolutely ridiculous I dont even know what to say. Just pathetic. North Korea and burning at the stake? Really? Reaching so far like Stretch Armstrong over there. Again though it has never been said he should be thrown in jail just from a tweet and anyone who keeps bringing it up like it's what a single person said or would want just looks doltish.

 

[Miss_D]

Just going to leave this here....

 

[SoTxBob]

I love the "Court of ACF"...

Just going to leave this here....

Miss_D, sadly there is no applause emote or you'd have one from me.

 

[Picnic]

Spoiler: MAJOR TRIGGER WARNING with more allegations

I am just now reading this and am absolutely disgusted...

Some of these assaults actually happened during filming and were either ignored/brushed aside OR PRAISED by people while on set.

I feel like I am going to be sick. But I am also really glad people are speaking up instead of letting this continue to be swept under the rug.

Please read with caution.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ccusers-tell-all-there-was-so-much-blood.html

 

[Sevrin]

Because it is starting to sound like North Korea to me

How much do you know about North Korea?

 

[JickyJuly]

Actually, she did ask me to stand for this when she told me to stop asking for fucking evidence. If she demands I believe in what Stoya is saying without questioning it, she is. Which is why I wrote that post explaining why I don't stand with anyone that doesn't provide proof for their claims.

On a second note, asking people to give another human being the benefit of the doubt before skinning him alive does not mean I am judging Stoya. I do believe what she says could be true. I just don't think I should accept is as unquestionable and then destroy another person based on hearsay.

This thread and the subject matter is pretty emotional. So, I can see how you might think you're being told how to feel. But, I actually meant that Stoya, in sharing her experience, didn't ask anyone to stand with her. She shared to her own Twitter where people who choose to follow her can read. She didn't encourage violence toward him. At this point, with as many people who have spoken up, this SHOULD affect his career. Any company that chooses to work with someone who has this many allegations against them is putting itself at risk for litigation should someone get hurt on their watch. I don't think that is destroying another person based on hearsay. It's expecting common sense and risk management. It's no longer even a he said she said situation. It's a he said she, she, she with witnesses, she, she, she and she with witnesses said.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

I don't want to quote so many things so I am just going to throw this here.

@supermila What do you feel Stoya would have to gain from making these accusations? You asked why people supported Stoya (a female performer) instead of James (a male performer) and made a comment about Stoya putting Jame's career at risk. What would she have to gain? Before all the other women started coming out I counted both James's AND Stoya's careers as dead. Making an allegation with no real proof like that in the porn industry (or anywhere really) could destroy you because anyone that doubts her wouldn't want to work with her out of fear that maybe she would accuse them. Ya know? So I just don't at all see why anyone would think she would do this unless it was true. It would hurt her just as much if not more.

----------

The other thing is the discussion about fake rape claims and how many there are. A reminder... When there is a fake rape claim made and someone finds out someone lies about it, it's usually huge news. So the 'constant' fake reports are just really in your face when they happen. Fake claims in comparison to how many real rapes happen are so minuscule.

 

[LuckySmiles]

@LexiSloan I obviously can't speak for @supermila but if I were to guess, it seems that she's only been saying

1.She doesn't let her personal thoughts and feelings determine how she takes action.
2.Supporting someone in a public venue of communication, is in fact taking action based on personal feelings.
3.That Only facts can determine how a person takes action. (even if it sucks)
4.And that the risk of adopting the mindset that exceptions can be allowed to this rule, outweigh the benefits.

 

[Guy]

Spoiler: MAJOR TRIGGER WARNING with more allegations

I am just now reading this and am absolutely disgusted...

Some of these assaults actually happened during filming and were either ignored/brushed aside OR PRAISED by people while on set.

I feel like I am going to be sick. But I am also really glad people are speaking up instead of letting this continue to be swept under the rug.

Please read with caution.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ccusers-tell-all-there-was-so-much-blood.html

Porn stars need to have unions

 

[LuckySmiles]

at the end of the day how you respond is a simpler personal question to ask yourselves,

What is the greater injustice?
guilty going free, or innocent being persecuted

If you pick the second one it is easy.
If you pick the first one... where do you draw the line?

 

[Teagan]

Well since Deen is not innocent at all and that's been addressed i'm not to worried about his guilty ass being persecuted wrongly.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

at the end of the day how you respond is a simpler personal question to ask yourselves,

What is the greater injustice?
guilty going free, or innocent being persecuted

If you pick the second one it is easy.
If you pick the first one... where do you draw the line?

I think the greater injustice would be looking at a group of women who have accused the same man of sexually assaulting each of them and saying, "you don't have any concrete evidence so tough luck".

Yes, it's a tricky situation. Do I think we should always believe everyone who accuses others of things? Definitely not. But in a case like this when *so* many women are stepping forward? Yes, I think that believing them is completely acceptable and logical. Your question isn't black or white, at least for me. It's all a case by case basis in my mind with many factors.

I would also like to add that the likelihood of James being held accountable for all of this in the legal system seems pretty low with where things stand at the moment. There is no concrete evidence which is obviously needed for him to face any charges. But I am glad that people in the industry are aware and can decide for themselves if they want to be involved with someone like him.

 

[LuckySmiles]

that's what I mean though, in this case it's blurry.
It seems easier to pick the first one in circumstances of rape. And you can say, this is worse, because of how rape is treated. Or this is worse because of this particular situation, but on the whole (regarding anytime anyone does anything wrong) I feel the second is worse, so I'll have to always act in that way.

 

[JickyJuly]

What is the greater injustice?
guilty going free, or innocent being persecuted

Since he's not on trial and likely won't be on trial for this, I don't feel it's relevant. If we're talking about locking him away, there absolutely has to be no reasonable doubt even if everyone in the world thinks he's guilty. That's something we accept in order to keep innocent people from being harmed by the legal system. But that doesn't mean it applies to public opinion or whether someone is sale-able in the entertainment industry. If these girls can make a civil case against him or the porn companies they were in when he assaulted them, they don't have the same burden of proof. It just has to be more likely than not.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Justice to me includes criminal justice, and social justice

 

[Teagan]

But when talking about rape most women will only ever get social justice if that. And again since we arent talking about an innocent man being dragged through the mud that has no bearing to this discussion at all. As far as i'm concerned her can be dragged in the mud by a truck with chains tied to his ankles that leads to a gravel road and off a fucking cliff at this point. Im not gonna concern myself with the very very few cases of women who lie about rape when this case isnt one of them and isn't relevant.

 

[JickyJuly]

Criminal justice and "social justice" or whatever we're calling it are not the same thing though. It makes for confusing conversation to try to lump them together. I mean, some teenage know nothing can get pulled over have a bit of weed in his pocket and confess so to the police and end up with jail time and a felony. Is that criminal justice within our current system? I guess so as it follows the current laws, but is it moral to mark someone for life over? No. Someone can go to prison for paying their taxes incorrectly. Does that make them a bad person who their neighbors should fear? Probably not. Meanwhile, other crimes (like the one we're discussing) are too difficult to prove. Of course that means we can't expect them to be put in jail without proper evidence, but to suggest that they can't be considered despicable human beings because there isn't enough evidence to incarcerate them is naive. Plenty of criminals are smart enough in choosing their victims to remain free their entire lives. If past or present incarceration is the only way to guess at who is a shit person and who is not, why are the streets filled with shit people?

 

[LuckySmiles]

I don't know I have to sleep on it, and part of me does agree with everyone. And I don't participate in these to discussions to hear myself talk or prove people wrong. I don't think anyone does.

Something in it just doesn't agree with me. If I witness someone kill my sister, and see that killer go free. And arrange to have them killed myself, I probably wouldn't even feel bad about it. And I would have enacted street justice/social justice. If I did the same thing because I believed someone to be guilty without being there to see for myself. I'd feel better temporarily, but it'd eventually eat me up. I'm not sure I'd know where to draw the line and it seems better not to be that way.

 

[EmilyConrad]

Joanna Angel also spoke out against the abuse during their 6 year relationship.