The Confederate Flag

[Azhrarn]

But since then, the Israeli government has responded by tightening its border and increasing the prosecutions of those involved in "white slavery."

Even the US State Department's most recent Trafficking in Persons Report from July 2015 puts Israel in Tier 1 (out of three tiers, with three being the worst) and acknowledges that Israel is working hard to curb trafficking. The only complaint: that the courts aren't sentencing harshly enough.

So the upshot is that Israel was slow to deal with the problem 15 years ago, but is taking care of business now.

I would dispute all of these statements. However, I do commend you for responding with facts rather than tomatoes

 

[gingerhobbit]

I would dispute all of these statements. However, I do commend you for responding with facts rather than tomatoes

Lol @ the condescension.

 

[Azhrarn]

Lol @ the condescension.

How is it condescension when I read that report... at least a year ago? Israel didn't really do anything to address the issue of white slavery; it simply applied political pressure to the United States to say that it had. But it's really not worth my time to argue the point further.

If you want to discuss condescension, I would refer you back to your own comment about yelling "fire" in a crowded theater; and I would strongly suggest that for your next research project you take up the issue of anti-depressants and their connection to mass shootings.

 

[gingerhobbit]

But it's really not worth my time to argue the point further.

The truest thing you've said all day. Everything that needs to be said has been said.

 

[dilligaf0]

 

[Azhrarn]

The truest thing you've said all day. Everything that needs to be said has been said.

How silly of me to expect objectivity from a "journalist". But I suppose it would have been too embarrassing to actually do the research and prove yourself wrong; so instead, in the great tradition of failed conquerors everywhere, you declare "victory" and go home.

Here, let me help you.

 

[Azhrarn]

(from a search taking less than 60 seconds)

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Just for shits and giggles, I tried to look up some of this Israeli white slavery bullshit.

I was not at all surprised when the topic turned out to be a favorite of far-right fringe websites like David Duke's (Duke is a well-known former KKK leader from Lousiana) and Stormfront, a message board for neo-Nazis. One of the first search results went to a website with a link to the "Jewish problem" at the top of its first page.

Indeed. I knew a request for his sources would be met with fluff and evasion.

Particularly shallow was his insinuation that he is somehow better informed because he has chosen to believe things he read in print. Long before bits and bytes came along, propaganda was flourishing with paper and ink. The fact that something is in a book (as opposed to on a website) adds not one bit to its credibility.

But he is willing to admit when he has gotten bad info (as evidenced by the Snopes snafu). Perhaps he will take the time to re-examine the other things he thinks he knows, with an eye towards the fallibility of sources in general.

When I was in the military, I had the opportunity to serve under a black gentleman who was heavily entrenched in the ideology of Louis Farrakhan. I listened to this man rail against "the white man" time and time again. Very offensive stuff. When I finally spoke up, I got myself months of extra duty for my troubles. And I didn't go off on him; I merely disagreed with him. Just pointed out that the fact that I was white did not mean I was interested in bestiality. He was wrong, but he had the authority. So I can appreciate how some black people might feel seeing that flag flown by state governments.


Here. A couple of reassurances. Nothing has been banned. I see it all the time. Took one today, one yesterday. Fly that shit proud if you want. But do it off the back of your 4x4; not over the governor's mansion...

And to anyone who falls into that trap of blaming "the white man", "the black man", "the Jew", or "the Arab"...

One of my favorite Jews. Probly rich enough to own at least 100 white slaves...



Favorite Jew. Didn't live long enough to get involved in the slave trade, because some toxic shit took hold and it wound up killing her. Have a Godwin lol

 

[Azhrarn]

Indeed. I knew a request for his sources would be met with fluff and evasion.

Particularly shallow was his insinuation that he is somehow better informed because he has chosen to believe things he read in print. Long before bits and bytes came along, propaganda was flourishing with paper and ink. The fact that something is in a book (as opposed to on a website) adds not one bit to its credibility.

Sorry to interrupt all your purty pictures. I did a few searches too. Funny how not one single search took me to Stormfront or David Duke. They did however take me to this Jewish webpage:

From The Times of Israel
http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-culpable-were-dutch-jews-in-the-slave-trade/

And to this:
"Jews also took an active part in the Dutch colonial slave trade; indeed, the bylaws of the Recife and Mauricia congregations (1648) included an imposta (Jewish tax) of five soldos for each Negro slave a Brazilian Jew purchased from the West Indies Company. Slave auctions were postponed if they fell on a Jewish holiday. In Curacao in the seventeenth century, as well as in the British colonies of Barbados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade. In fact, in all the American colonies, whether French (Martinique), British, or Dutch, Jewish merchants frequently dominated.

"This was no less true on the North American mainland, where during the eighteenth century Jews participated in the 'triangular trade' that brought slaves from Africa to the West Indies and there exchanged them for molasses, which in turn was taken to New England and converted into rum for sale in Africa. Isaac Da Costa of Charleston in the 1750's, David Franks of Philadelphia in the 1760's, and Aaron Lopez of Newport in the late 1760's and early 1770's dominated Jewish slave trading on the American continent."

Rabbi Marc Lee Raphael, Jews and Judaism in the United States: A Documentary History (New York: Behrman House, Inc., Pub, 1983), pp. 14, 23-25.
http://www.rense.com/general69/invo.htm

But please, do continue with your scholarly argument.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Sorry to interrupt all your purty pictures. I did a few searches too. Funny how not one single search took me to Stormfront or David Duke. They did however take me to this Jewish webpage:

From The Times of Israel
http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-culpable-were-dutch-jews-in-the-slave-trade/

And to this:
"Jews also took an active part in the Dutch colonial slave trade; indeed, the bylaws of the Recife and Mauricia congregations (1648) included an imposta (Jewish tax) of five soldos for each Negro slave a Brazilian Jew purchased from the West Indies Company. Slave auctions were postponed if they fell on a Jewish holiday. In Curacao in the seventeenth century, as well as in the British colonies of Barbados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade. In fact, in all the American colonies, whether French (Martinique), British, or Dutch, Jewish merchants frequently dominated.

"This was no less true on the North American mainland, where during the eighteenth century Jews participated in the 'triangular trade' that brought slaves from Africa to the West Indies and there exchanged them for molasses, which in turn was taken to New England and converted into rum for sale in Africa. Isaac Da Costa of Charleston in the 1750's, David Franks of Philadelphia in the 1760's, and Aaron Lopez of Newport in the late 1760's and early 1770's dominated Jewish slave trading on the American continent."

Rabbi Marc Lee Raphael, Jews and Judaism in the United States: A Documentary History (New York: Behrman House, Inc., Pub, 1983), pp. 14, 23-25.
http://www.rense.com/general69/invo.htm

But please, do continue with your scholarly argument.

What does this have to do with the flag?
Jews were involved in slave trade, therefore arguments against the flag are wrong? Are you familiar with the term "non sequitur"?

 

[Azhrarn]

What does this have to do with the flag?
Jews were involved in slave trade, therefore arguments against the flag are wrong? Are you familiar with the term "non sequitur"?

Oh, I'm sorry. Please forgive me for answering a question which you repeatedly asked. How silly of me to presume that you were being serious rather than merely attempting to troll.

Interesting. I take it very personally when "the Jews" start getting dragged into this. And no, I'm not Jewish .

Can you offer your source for these for these allegations?

As to the point I was trying to make, since you knee-jerk politically-correct thought police want to tear down the Confederate flag so badly, in the interest of fairness I now expect you to go after Jewish symbols with equal zeal.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Oh, I'm sorry. Please forgive me for answering a question which you repeatedly asked. How silly of me to presume that you were being serious rather than merely attempting to troll.

Yes, a follow up question.

What does this have to do with the flag?
Jews were involved in slave trade, therefore arguments against the flag are wrong? Are you familiar with the term "non sequitur"?

(love to troll. but i wouldn't waste my time with you . defend your position sir. what does one have to do with the other? sincerely, anxious in Atlanta lol)

 

[Azhrarn]

Yes, a follow up question.

What does this have to do with the flag?

It's your question, why don't you tell me? If you didn't think the question was relevant then why did you ask it?

As to your answer, I've already provided it. Not only in the post immediately above, but also in in the original post which you initially questioned. I'm not responsible for your short-term memory loss; but considering your response, you'll have to forgive me if I choose to overlook any further questions from you in the future.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

It's your question, why don't you tell me? If you didn't think the question was relevant then why did you ask it?

As to your answer, I've already provided it. Not only in the post immediately above, but also in in the original post which you initially questioned. I'm not responsible for your short-term memory loss; but considering your response, you'll have to forgive me if I choose to overlook any further questions from you in the future.

Fine, then ignore this one as well. Regarding this statement...

I said the majority were Jews; just as the majority of the white slave trade today is in the hands of Israel.

The majority bit is what I am really interested in. Where do you draw these statistics from? And who are the second and third place offenders?

I hope what you posted does not represent the entirety (or even the bulk) of your source material. It is wholly insufficient, for a number of reasons.

 

[Azhrarn]

What does this have to do with the flag?

I'll leave you to answer your own irrelevant questions, provided you can recover from your short-term (or permanent?) memory loss.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I'll leave you to answer your own irrelevant questions, provided you can recover from your short-term (or permanent?) memory loss.

I did not ask because I needed these questions answered, and I am sure you realize this; I asked to point out the grievous flaws in your doctrine. And your tone (combined with the complete lack of substance in your replies) tells me I may have hit my mark.

(from a search taking less than 60 seconds)

You found this in less than 60 seconds. It confirmed your biases, so you happily posted it here. But there is a problem. This article is garbage. Much like (I suspect) the rest of the information you have unearthed. And this comes from someone who is in favor of gun ownership. Do you need me to point out the flaws in this article, or are you capable? Happy to help if you need it.

As to the point I was trying to make, since you knee-jerk politically-correct thought police want to tear down the Confederate flag so badly, in the interest of fairness I now expect you to go after Jewish symbols with equal zeal.

If the ADL ever manages to get the Star of David embedded on state flags, I will express the exact same sentiment about having it removed. Until such time, the comparison you have drawn is faulty.

Shall I continue?

 

[Teagan]

Azhrarn The point of this thread is the flag. Not who had slaves the most. Not who is most responsible for them. Not who made money off of them. So I get where Just is coming from asking why is that even being brought up at all? It's very off topic and moot here.

But you said "since you knee-jerk politically-correct thought police want to tear down the Confederate flag so badly, in the interest of fairness I now expect you to go after Jewish symbols with equal zeal." (Now since most countries/nationalities have some terrible shit in their past they did this is incredibly silly BUT) thing is something like the Star of David and such is considered religious and therefore covered under separation of church and state and isn't flown at government buildings alone. Now it may be like some Catholic symbols where they are still fighting to have things taken down here or there (i'm not positive on this that there are any left and i'm not bothering to google this shit either) but if there is any left they will be taken down eventually anyway. So again your point that Jewish symbols should be gone after is just not called for cause they have already been either taken down or have been way before now.

Similarly the Swastika (despite being a large religious peaceful symbol still and long before Nazis) aren't flown at government buildings either. So anyone who wants to claim how the battle flag is not racist, how it means this or that to some people (southern heritage crap) and so for that alone it should be left alone despite it meaning for MOST hate and racism need to look at that fact. You wanna fight for the confederate flag to be on government buildings then you might as well also fight for the Nazi flags as well since they are similar in the same ways as to the point people want the battle flag left alone. However out of fucking respect and peoples feelings and the mass murders that the Swastika represented and was turned in to and is still used today for hate, it is not flown on government sites. Despite the fact it has very real valid wonderful feelings for many which is no where near on par with a battle flag. Its not to forget the past, it's not to brush it under the rug, it's about respect alone.

Youre free to fly whatever you want personally but some things just have no place in government. To me only state and country flags should now and ever be allowed. Anything else is religious, political, hateful or something else equally uncalled for in the space it would occupy.

 

[Nordling]

@Azhern: Obviously, you, for some reason, don't understand that political parties are NOT immutable. Due to a little thing called "The Southern Strategy," the two major political parties have virtually swapped, both in membership, and in character. And in the North, this process began even earlier.

 

[Azhrarn]

@Nordling - I earlier stated symbols change over time. Why would I have made that statement if I didn't understand that the organizations to which they belong also change?

Azhrarn The point of this thread is the flag.

Teagan - Yes and no. Please indulge me for a moment. The confederate flag has been around a long time. Why is there suddenly such a furor now? I would suggest it's because people who no longer have the attention span to read books are getting their talking points and marching orders from social media like twitter for f*cks sake.

Dylann Roof shot up a bible study. He posed with some Confederate flags. Ergo, the narrative seems to be that we can prevent this from ever happening again by banning guns, and confederate flags and these aren't even the most extremist views I've heard. Someone earlier in this very thread was seriously arguing that if you have right-wing or conservative views that you shouldn't be allowed free speech anymore. A day ago I read an article wishing that everyone who believes in gun rights ought to be shot and killed.

And I can't help but notice the disconnects. Like the fact that this Dylann Roof was taking a powerful drug called Suboxone, which can cause sudden and violent outburts. Just like every other mass shooting I've ever heard of involved the use of some type of psychiatric drug, most of which were never intended to be given to children. Only no one wants to talk about that.

Instead of having a serious discussion about anti-depressants and other psychiatric drugs, we hear endless calls for the banning of guns, as if criminals have ever been deterred by background checks or "gun-free" zones.

I also can't help but notice the selective hypocrisy in media coverage. There's an unknown number of illegal aliens pouring across the southern border, who are responsible for a staggering number of federal crimes, including a huge increase in the rapes of underage girls, and the media looks the other way. A Muslim kills 4 marines in Chattanooga, TN and the media bends over backwards trying to prove the shooting doesn't have anything to do with Islam. All across the world, Muslim immigrants attack native citizens of their host countries for not conforming to Islamic law, and the media looks the other way. All across the United States, the amount of black on white crime is staggeringly disproportionate to the amount of white on black crime, and yet the media is not only silent, but actually tries to paint the utterly absurd and misleading scenario where the only crime in America is being committed by white males.

But instead of having serious discussions about any of these issues, people around the country are now taking it upon themselves to break the law by trespassing onto private property to take down Confederate flags. That's a brilliant way to avoid more violence, isn't it? Encourage criminal trespass to tear down a symbol?

 

[Teagan]

1. If you didnt know there was a furor over this flag until now then that is on you. But it's been there and people have been talking about it for as long as I can remember it's been a point of contention. Are there some bandwagon jumpers? Of course. But that's been going on since the dawn of time as well with pretty much everything. Sometimes too people need to have something brought t their attention to even know it exists cause a lot of people live pretty much in a bubble. Does it mean they are only twitter informed? No, of course not. Are there those who are? Of course. But regardless of any of that it is an issue. Issues don't have to have massive followings or twitter hashtags to be one, they just are. It doesn't matter if to some if it's recently brought to someones attention either as an issue. And it doesnt matter how many books if any people read either cause that is in no way a sign of a smart or even educated person anyway. An issue is an issue. Gay rights wasnt always a big thing to people before either but the struggle was still there. Trans people as well. Voting rights, and on and on. All issues. And a person does not even have to be educated or a book reader to know about respect, hate, and empathy and what should be done in certain instances.

2. One Roof was not a child. He was an adult of 21. I get some people are blaming every thing under the sun for his shooting however the facts are it was probably multiple things combined and we dont even really know for sure what makes someone a murderer and what wont. Lots of people are on drugs and dont kill, have childhood abuse and dont kill, have chemical imbalances and dont kill, have bad parents and dont kill, mom did drugs while pregnant and dont kill, are bullied and dont kill, and blah blah. Some people are just not all there and that's all there is to it.
The point is that in this case with Roof you have absolutely no clue what so ever of why he did what he did. No one does yet. His writings can not be trusted cause he is mentally ill at the least and none of us are his psychiatrist and looking at his brain scans and hormone levels and shit. There is also something to be said of killers lasted a long time before drugs did, there is a higher population now than there used to be, we are raising this generation with technology and that can cause issues as well.
And if you do not hear the calls for stopping drugs in kids and the calls to stop letting teachers diagnose normal child behavior then you arent looking cause I see it constantly. Its all over my fb by my friends, news stories, calls for studies of what these drugs really do and can do in the long run, etc. If you wanna see it go look or pay some more attention cause it's there and has been. Again regardless though this has nothing to do with a flag. If you wanna talk drugs and their correlation start your own thread for it and back up your claims there.

3. Thing is people who have even the slightest bit of common sense know about the media. We know if you watch Fox news what you're gonna get. We know if we watch Limbaugh what he's gonna do. And vice versa. People are free to pick what they get their info from. It's sad so many stick to one platform and go from there but it happens. That's part of our rights kinda. Hopefully people get their stuff from several sources and branch out like me but that's my choice. It's also the news channel and their owners to choose the side of the story they will be on as well. Nothing is wrong with any of that really. Freedom to choose is something I love. Again moot point to the thread though.
Now again if you dont see the coverage on immigration or the problems it can cause then you're not looking. Immigrants arent the problem though, people fleeing to the US for safety of their crimes however is cause the mass majority of immigrants are fine and dandy people. However that shit does not need to be on every channel every single day. Come on now. The Chattanooga shooting was done by a bipolar man who was an addict and had mental health issues and it is more about that than what crazy thing he chose to cling to which was religion. As I stated before crazy people will always find something to use to fit their bill nicely and go with it. Islam or any religion should not be drug through the mud cause crazy people use it badly. Especially since every religion has extremists who use it for their own purposes, and so do judgmental assholes, politicians, and fuck my own grandma and mother to use as excuses for their hate sometimes. This is nothing new and again has been around long before the media of today. People will use anything to justify themselves and their actions. Again though if you don't see the reports that are blaming Islam alone then you are not looking cause i've seen it repeatedly. And same with what Islamic extremists are doing across the globe. And same with what other religious extremists are doing as well. It is in the media and it is in the main stream media. Maybe if you arent seeing it enough that's a good thing though cause a religion being twisted and used for such should not be to blame but the people themselves as they alone are responsible for their actions.

I honestly have to ask myself if you arent seeing all this stuff where the hell you're looking or what you're watching cause it obviously is very limited in it's reporting and I would highly suggest switching it up and looking a few other places.

Again though this is moot and nothing to do with the point of the thread. And if you read nothing else read this. Now I indulged you however your road lead no where to a point at all having anything to do with a battle flag. Other than to maybe try to point out you feel there are bigger issues than a flag alone. If that's the case, well okay then. You're entitled to that opinion. I see the point. However I do not follow with it. It is not up to any person to decide what should and should not be more important at any given time. One person tells me my donations and food to the animal shelter would be better spent on a homeless shelter. Someone tells that person rather than the homeless my donations should maybe go towards civil rights for all causes. Another person says no my money should not go there but toward MS research. Another says MS is not as important as breast cancer. Another says really it should go toward helping children in Africa being fed. Another says no if you're gonna help Africans you should help with diseases and not food. And on and on and on. Plain and simply EVERY cause deserves attention and is important. All of it. No one gets to say what is more important to another person but gets to choose for themselves. So while i'm feeding strays and giving to my humane society every one else is free to do with their money and time what they wish and what is important to them personally for what ever reason they choose. So while to you the flag may not be on your priority list or important to you...so fucking what. It is to others so let them be. Dont go telling people to focus elsewhere cause it's how you feel. You have no right to do so and it's ignorant to do.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Plus ya know... the Jews never rose up against the united states in rebellion.
So there's that...

Also the lack of any government buildings in the U.S actually flying the star of David for us to then go take down... so there is also that too.

And how does dutch Jews participating in the black slave trade hundreds of years ago prove that Israel is the leader in modern day white slavery?

and why am I reading an article on AMMOLAND DOT FUCKING COM

Seriously... wtf?
My poor jewey brain needs slaves to explain to me how this makes sense I guess.

 

[Nordling]

@Azrharn said, "@Nordling - I earlier stated symbols change over time. Why would I have made that statement if I didn't understand that the organizations to which they belong also change?"

I don't know. Could you explain why you didn't understand? I mean you seem to be all over the place in this thread, and announcing that the southern wing of the Democratic party was once a racist pile of jackasses doesn't seem to relate to anything in this thread. Parties are not people, they have no will or consciousness, thus they often change, when their membership changes.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

And I can't help but notice the disconnects. Like the fact that this Dylann Roof was taking a powerful drug called Suboxone, which can cause sudden and violent outburts. Just like every other mass shooting I've ever heard of involved the use of some type of psychiatric drug, most of which were never intended to be given to children. Only no one wants to talk about that.


Instead of having a serious discussion about anti-depressants and other psychiatric drugs, we hear endless calls for the banning of guns, as if criminals have ever been deterred by background checks or "gun-free" zones.

Excellent. I was waiting eagerly for this. Let me help clear up some of these disconnects.

Love to shoot (rifle and handgun). No, I'm not poppin' aspirin out of the air with a .22, but I am pretty damn good. Never had any real handgun training, just a natural. It is no trouble for me to put my target at the back of a 25 yard range and put a 50 round box into the black with a .45. And I enjoy doing it.

But I don't own a handgun anymore. For one thing, my brain sometimes likes to play tricks on me. I will see things that aren't there, I will hear things that aren't being said, I will run from people that aren't chasing me. Paranoid delusions. Anxiety. Hallucinations.

And then there is the depression. I never thought of taking my .45 into a crowd and gunning down strangers. But I sat there for weeks looking at the big ass hole on the end of that barrel wondering "How big of a mess is this going to make?" That was when one of my anti-depressants let me down.

During one of my more lucid moments, I realized I had no business owning a gun. I got rid of it. If the government says I am not allowed to own one, then I agree. Ditto for a lot of my mentally ill peers; they got no business having one either. There has to be some screening, some background checks, some limitations put on this gun ownership business. The harm that one unstable person can cause is too great.

With regards to the psychiatric medications...I have had some that did absolutely nothing to me. I have had some that made me aggressive. Hypersexual. Lethargic. Perpetually confused. Impotent. Sleepy. Weight gain. Forgetful. But I never experienced a desire to shoot up a mall, or a school, or a shopping mall as a side effect.

Big pharma is up to some bullshit, there is no doubt about that. They will indeed cover up side effects so they can sell their quick-fixes at jacked up rates. But you cannot lay the entire problem of mass shootings at their feet. To claim otherwise is simplistic. Naive. Perhaps blatantly dishonest.

I am in this position: if I tell people I am close to “I am going off this med; it's f*cking me up and I can't take it anymore”, I get to see alarm cross their face. Oh no, he's going to stop his meds!

If I am on a med, I am regularly reminded by people of your ilk that me taking that pill is the root cause of one of the gravest problems society has to deal with.

Let's return to this piece for a minute...

(from a search taking less than 60 seconds)

A critical reading of this makes me ask “Why do they only want to focus on the last 20 years of mass shootings when we have over a hundred years worth of data to draw on?”

The answer? Because it fits the narrative. It is propaganda. The gun lobby does not care about big pharma. It does not care about the mentally ill. It cares about keeping it's market as free of regulation as possible. And the gun lobby is quite willing to scapegoat to avoid any additional regulations. Much like a man who is willing to scapegoat the Jew because his beloved symbol is losing its influence over others.

Don't get me wrong, mental illness plays the biggest part in this whole discussion. But this is a problem that needs to be attacked by thinking, reasoning individuals who are willing to compromise. The small minded nonsense put forth by the ammoland.com crowd has no place in this discussion.

 

[Azhrarn]

...
Again though this is moot and nothing to do with the point of the thread. And if you read nothing else read this. Now I indulged you however your road lead no where to a point at all having anything to do with a battle flag. Other than to maybe try to point out you feel there are bigger issues than a flag alone. If that's the case, well okay then. You're entitled to that opinion. I see the point. However I do not follow with it. It is not up to any person to decide what should and should not be more important at any given time. One person tells me my donations and food to the animal shelter would be better spent on a homeless shelter. Someone tells that person rather than the homeless my donations should maybe go towards civil rights for all causes. Another person says no my money should not go there but toward MS research. Another says MS is not as important as breast cancer. Another says really it should go toward helping children in Africa being fed. Another says no if you're gonna help Africans you should help with diseases and not food. And on and on and on. Plain and simply EVERY cause deserves attention and is important. All of it. No one gets to say what is more important to another person but gets to choose for themselves. So while i'm feeding strays and giving to my humane society every one else is free to do with their money and time what they wish and what is important to them personally for what ever reason they choose. So while to you the flag may not be on your priority list or important to you...so fucking what. It is to others so let them be. Dont go telling people to focus elsewhere cause it's how you feel. You have no right to do so and it's ignorant to do.

What most people refer to as "the Confederate flag” was never actually used to represent the Confederacy. Some may claim it represents racism, and may even use it in that manner; just as to others it has served as a long-standing symbol of Southern culture, and Southern pride. As for myself, I’m not presumptuous enough to question someone else’s stated reasons for displaying it; and since it was never officially adopted as a symbol of the Confederate States of America, I see no reason to call for its removal. But to get to the point, it’s not that I’m trying to tell other people what to do so much as I’m saying don’t try to tell me what to do.

You don’t like the Confederate flag because you think it’s racist? Great. So don’t fly it. But don’t break into someone’s else's home to remove a Confederate flag that doesn’t belong to you.

Don’t try to shout down and deny freedom of speech to those who happen to hold a different opinion than you do.

Don’t use it to slander an entire culture of which you know nothing about - calling people racists and terrorists when it’s your side that is running wild in the streets and breaking laws.

And don’t use it an an excuse to call for the banning of firearms and the confiscation of guns when all the evidence point to anti-depressants as being the real issue. According to one article I read, 13% of the US population is on an anti-depressant. So the odds of any random person, any random mass shooter, being on an anti-depressant logically ought to be around 13%. But it’s not. Sure, people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons. But when you do the research and you find that practically every single mass shooter in the history of the United States was on an anti-depressant, well, the odds of that happening by pure chance alone are literally astronomical, or if you want to appear unbiased and scholarly you can say they’re “statistically significant” but either way, you can’t get around the fact that it’s the elephant in the living room that a lot of people don’t seem to want to talk about - and by people I’m specifically referring to those in politics and the media.

So fine, go ahead and ban the Confederate flag if that’s your idea of a meaningful way to spend your time. It will simply be replaced by another and probably better symbol anyway, possibly this one.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Little off topic but it would be wrong to assume the guys in this picture are racists, right?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

And don’t use it an an excuse to call for the banning of firearms and the confiscation of guns when all the evidence point to anti-depressants as being the real issue. According to one article I read, 13% of the US population is on an anti-depressant. So the odds of any random person, any random mass shooter, being on an anti-depressant logically ought to be around 13%. But it’s not. Sure, people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons. But when you do the research and you find that practically every single mass shooter in the history of the United States was on an anti-depressant, well, the odds of that happening by pure chance alone are literally astronomical, or if you want to appear unbiased and scholarly you can say they’re “statistically significant” but either way, you can’t get around the fact that it’s the elephant in the living room that a lot of people don’t seem to want to talk about - and by people I’m specifically referring to those in politics and the media.

The red. Exaggerations. Huge part of the propaganda arsenal.
You choose dogma over thinking. So be it.

So fine, go ahead and ban the Confederate flag if that’s your idea of a meaningful way to spend your time. It will simply be replaced by another and probably better symbol anyway, possibly this one.
View attachment 55740

I understand the language you are speaking, because I lived it for a long time. I hear your threat loud and clear. And I am going to tell you like it is.

I will fight for what I believe in. I don't technically own a gun anymore, but I have one within reach. If the revolution comes, I'll be ready. I will choose my side based on logic and reason. And you had better pray you don't wind up downrange of me.

You scare no one.

 

[FoxyBea]

I find it... an incredibly odd thing to take pride in. I find it offensive that the same people who say, "Don't like this country? Get out!!!" when I make the slightest complaint about American politics often fly the Confederate flag. I don't want to leave America. I want to make it better for my kids and their kids. Makes me want to respond, "Why don't you move to Texas and help them secede again?"

There are plenty of other symbols that represent what these people believe in. And we can argue all day about what it really means, but at the end of the day, connotation trumps denotation, always. The Confederate flag makes people uncomfortable, no matter what you think it really means. Hindu people don't walk through Warsaw with flags of the original swastika.

The Civil War may not have been fought over slavery, as Lincoln probably would have let slavery remain if it could have preserved the Union, but the Confederacy did secede because of slavery. Read The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States and compare mention of slavery with mention of states' rights.

Really, personal use of the flag is annoying to me at most, but flying the flag on a government building is absolutely ridiculous.

(haven't read the thread yet so sorry if I overwrote others' ideas)

EDIT to add: The enemy flag argument makes sense but may not be the best. For example, Putin is dead center on the political compass, but he is capitalist, homophobic, and sexist. Lenin's body is still on display and is highly respected. Why does Putin allow this? I don't know, but it's probably because if Lenin's body was removed or defaced in anyway, there would be an uproar from Russians, and many from other post-Soviet countries as well, as an alarming majority of Russians (and other USSR citizens) still supported the USSR when it was separated, and even Russians who would consider themselves capitalists have immense respect for Lenin. Lenin let any gender marry any gender, allowed and encouraged safe and legal abortion, and made a place for women in the labor force. Putin's Russia would be an enemy nation to the USSR, and Lenin maybe even would have invaded it to liberate gay citizens.

So I guess the questions is, are you complacent? Do you love America as it stands? The majority of the Russian population wants to rejoin the USSR (an enemy nation to Putin's Russia in much the same way the Confederacy was to the Union) but they are afraid of Putin. They are afraid the West won't help them. If you don't want to rejoin the Confederacy, why do you cherish your version of Lenin's body? Just... odd.

 

[Azhrarn]

I find it... an incredibly odd thing to take pride in. I find it offensive that the same people who say, "Don't like this country? Get out!!!" when I make the slightest complaint about American politics often fly the Confederate flag. I don't want to leave America. I want to make it better for my kids and their kids. Makes me want to respond, "Why don't you move to Texas and help them secede again?"

There are plenty of other symbols that represent what these people believe in. And we can argue all day about what it really means, but at the end of the day, connotation trumps denotation, always. The Confederate flag makes people uncomfortable, no matter what you think it really means. Hindu people don't walk through Warsaw with flags of the original swastika.

The Civil War may not have been fought over slavery, as Lincoln probably would have let slavery remain if it could have preserved the Union, but the Confederacy did secede because of slavery. Read The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States and compare mention of slavery with mention of states' rights.

Really, personal use of the flag is annoying to me at most, but flying the flag on a government building is absolutely ridiculous.

(haven't read the thread yet so sorry if I overwrote others' ideas)

EDIT to add: The enemy flag argument makes sense but may not be the best. For example, Putin is dead center on the political compass, but he is capitalist, homophobic, and sexist. Lenin's body is still on display and is highly respected. Why does Putin allow this? I don't know, but it's probably because if Lenin's body was removed or defaced in anyway, there would be an uproar from Russians, and many from other post-Soviet countries as well, as an alarming majority of Russians (and other USSR citizens) still supported the USSR when it was separated, and even Russians who would consider themselves capitalists have immense respect for Lenin. Lenin let any gender marry any gender, allowed and encouraged safe and legal abortion, and made a place for women in the labor force. Putin's Russia would be an enemy nation to the USSR, and Lenin maybe even would have invaded it to liberate gay citizens.

So I guess the questions is, are you complacent? Do you love America as it stands? The majority of the Russian population wants to rejoin the USSR (an enemy nation to Putin's Russia in much the same way the Confederacy was to the Union) but they are afraid of Putin. They are afraid the West won't help them. If you don't want to rejoin the Confederacy, why do you cherish your version of Lenin's body? Just... odd.

Thank you for your post.

 

[FoxyBea]

Roughly 10%, if not less, of Southerners who fought and/or died in that war were slave owners. So why did those others fight? Why did they die? Most of those men were just plain farmers, working their land so their family could survive; they didn't own a 1,000 acres of plantain land and certainly couldn't afford slaves. So I ask again, why did they fight? Would you risk your life for something you never had in the first place and would never own? Is your life with that? Mine certainly isn't.

So why did they fight? Was it slavery? Are you 100% sure? Maybe there was something else there worth fighting for.

[/QUOTE]


Yes. Poor people couldn't afford slaves, but they were still in support of treating Black individuals as sub-human. Haven't noticed how poor white Southerners often vote for billionaire politicians who want to give other billionaires tax breaks? Haven't noticed how the Southern US is a hub for "BOOT-STRAPPPPS" capitalists and working poor individuals simultaneously? I agree that it is odd, but it is not a new concept.

Nothing says defeat like resorting to ad hominem attacks.

You can call someone names without it being a fallacy. Ad hominem is ignoring an argument entirely and using attacks against the opponent as the only defense. I agree that it is wildly inappropriate in this platform, but people will call you names if they find your beliefs dangerous.

re: The Jew thing. Jews participated in the slave trade? Yeah, what's your point? Ancient Egyptians, who were Black Africans, also had slaves. Their slaves were Jews. Anti-Semitism, as well as Anti-Slav mentalities, intersect with racism in many places, especially because Jews and Slavs are called ugly because of features they historically share with People of Color, and many Jews ARE People of Color. The Anti-Slav Polish genocide during Hitler's Holocaust is one of the most overlooked angles of the genocide. Slavs were the original slaves (I believe this is the origin of the word slave, but I could be totally wrong), Jews soon after, and many were owned by Moors (Black individuals) So... what. is. your. point? From a white Jew and a Slav,

Also, white Israel has done tons of stuff many Jews disagree with. It's called Zionism, and most of us are not in on it.

re: Drugs & Shootings. Point me to a reliable source? Major far-right "gun rights" groups use mental illness as a shield to keep guns available. They throw mentally ill people and neurodivergent (autistic) people under the bus and then jump on the next proposed legislation that says ban mentally ill people from having guns. And it works! It's the ONE thing far-right gun activists and Democrats agree on. And these bills SUCK. My boyfriend has ADHD, took ritalin as a kid. I suffer from disorders I don't want to mention here, but have taken psychiatric medications. Neither of us have violent thoughts, but these laws would never allow us to own guns. People like us are much more likely to be abused and murdered than to commit gun violence. What do I think we should do about guns? I think I've derailed this thread enough, but I will say that I am a far-left activist who believes in the right to own guns but doesn't agree with mainstream pro-gun lobbyists because of their historical anti-Blackness and ableism.

And lastly, for the giggles:

Spoiler: Nazi Germany flag within

(I wanted to use the Libertarian flag that says "Snakes don't do this," but I couldn't find it.)

 

[justjoinedtopost]

re: The Jew thing....

Not to be overlooked...there is a huge difference between bitching about the Israelis and bitching about the Jews.