Trayvon Martin

[Cassidy Nicole]

I have been hearing about this since I am also in the area. This makes me so sick to my stomach. I hope this boys family gets the justice it deserves.

 

[Bocefish]

I really find it hard to believe Zimmerman hasn't been arrested. If this "Stand your ground" law allows things like this to happen, then it has to be changed. According to police, they haven't arrested Zimmerman because nobody can dispute his claims of acting in self-defense. Under that premise, we can now shoot anyone anywhere and claim self-defense providing there are no witnesses to say otherwise.

FFS, Zimmerman is the one who pursued the victim in a suspicious manner, not the other way around. At least Florida authorities have announced that a grand jury would hear evidence about the shooting next month. In the mean time, Zimmerman should be in custody IMO. I still haven't heard any reasonable evidence this was racially motivated though.

The following info from the girl he was on the phone with connects some of the missing dots. That, along with the neighborhood testimonies and 911 calls should be plenty to take Zimmerman into custody.

The failure of local police to arrest Zimmerman in the three weeks since the shooting – and the release of 911 tapes that reveal he followed Martin, despite a warning by a police dispatcher not to – has fuelled a fierce debate on race, vigilante justice and a "stand your ground" law in Florida that allows people to defend themselves using deadly force.

Crump said that during the final phone call with his girlfriend, who was back home in Miami, Martin told her that a stranger was following him, according to an affidavit she recorded. Martin had then tried unsuccessfully to get away from the stranger.

"He says: 'Oh, he's right behind me. He's right behind me again,'" Crump said the girl told him. "She says: 'Run.' He says: 'I'm not going to run, I'm just going to walk fast.'

She then heard Martin saying "Why are you following me" and another voice saying "What are you doing here?" She told Crump they both repeated themselves, and then she thinks she heard Zimmerman push Martin "because his voice changes, like something interrupted his speech." She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said.

When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street.

 

[Bocefish]

As far as the possible racial slur on the 911 call...

The tape of George Zimmerman’s 911 phone call is unclear, but he may have said “f---ing c--ns,” under his breath as he followed Trayvon Martin. The dispatcher told him he did not have to follow the teen, but the confrontation took place moments later.

WFTV had an audio expert listen to the call, who said the word was "punks," according to the report.

I was pretty sure when I listened to it, whatever the word was, it started with a 'P'.

 

[Bocefish]

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee temporarily steps aside while investigation continues...

Lee was on the job for just 10 months. He joined the department after a 27-year career at the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office with a mission to clean up a department marked by internal turmoil and race-related scandals.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2 ... rylink=cpy

 

[Nordling]

As far as the possible racial slur on the 911 call...

The tape of George Zimmerman’s 911 phone call is unclear, but he may have said “f---ing c--ns,” under his breath as he followed Trayvon Martin. The dispatcher told him he did not have to follow the teen, but the confrontation took place moments later.

WFTV had an audio expert listen to the call, who said the word was "punks," according to the report.

I was pretty sure when I listened to it, whatever the word was, it started with a 'P'.

"Audio Expert." Who? What are his/her credentials? Admittedly, the whispered aside is not clear, but I'm not just taking it as the final word that an Orlando, ABC affiliate says it's the final word. At any rate, the accusation of "racially motivated" does not hinge only on a whispered comment. More so, was the blatant facts of this case. A hulking, self-appointed "watchman" chases a 17 year old kid and blows him away and the police seem to have laughed it off and completely bought into (for the record) his claims of "self defense."

This story is still unfolding, but to say there's NO evidence or indication of racial motivation is driving with your eyes closed.

 

[Bocefish]

At any rate, the accusation of "racially motivated" does not hinge only on a whispered comment. More so, was the blatant facts of this case. A hulking, self-appointed "watchman" chases a 17 year old kid and blows him away and the police seem to have laughed it off and completely bought into (for the record) his claims of "self defense."

This story is still unfolding, but to say there's NO evidence or indication of racial motivation is driving with your eyes closed.

Since I'm apparently blind, please enlighten us with your blatant FACTS this shooting was racially motivated.

 

[Nordling]

At any rate, the accusation of "racially motivated" does not hinge only on a whispered comment. More so, was the blatant facts of this case. A hulking, self-appointed "watchman" chases a 17 year old kid and blows him away and the police seem to have laughed it off and completely bought into (for the record) his claims of "self defense."

This story is still unfolding, but to say there's NO evidence or indication of racial motivation is driving with your eyes closed.

Since I'm apparently blind, please enlighten us with your blatant FACTS this shooting was racially motivated.

1. Zimmerman had a history of being obsessed with black youths in his neighborhood.
2. The cops checked the victim's body for drugs, made no effort to contact his family EVEN though the possessed his cell phone...for several DAYS.
3. The cops did NOT search the SUV or check Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol.
5. Even though the shooter ignored the implicit request by the dispatcher to NOT follow the victim, he did so anyway and was apparently not charged with anything even though he broke every rule.
6. The killer had a known background for such things as assaulting an officer, this central Florida area seemed to have no problem giving him a gun permit.

I don't see this case as mere police incompetence. I see unequal treatment of a black victim and his white murderer.

 

[Bocefish]

At any rate, the accusation of "racially motivated" does not hinge only on a whispered comment. More so, was the blatant facts of this case. A hulking, self-appointed "watchman" chases a 17 year old kid and blows him away and the police seem to have laughed it off and completely bought into (for the record) his claims of "self defense."

This story is still unfolding, but to say there's NO evidence or indication of racial motivation is driving with your eyes closed.

Since I'm apparently blind, please enlighten us with your blatant FACTS this shooting was racially motivated.

1. Zimmerman had a history of being obsessed with black youths in his neighborhood.
2. The cops checked the victim's body for drugs, made no effort to contact his family EVEN though the possessed his cell phone...for several DAYS.
3. The cops did NOT search the SUV or check Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol.
5. Even though the shooter ignored the implicit request by the dispatcher to NOT follow the victim, he did so anyway and was apparently not charged with anything even though he broke every rule.
6. The killer had a known background for such things as assaulting an officer, this central Florida area seemed to have no problem giving him a gun permit.

I don't see this case as mere police incompetence. I see unequal treatment of a black victim and his white murderer.

I'm not talking about the police investigation. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at first, but no longer. It's unmistakably clear they've bungled this from the very beginning.

As for the FACTS about it being a racially motivated shooting...

1. Zimmerman had a history of being obsessed with black youths in his neighborhood.

Where is there proof of of this?

 

[Nordling]

At any rate, the accusation of "racially motivated" does not hinge only on a whispered comment. More so, was the blatant facts of this case. A hulking, self-appointed "watchman" chases a 17 year old kid and blows him away and the police seem to have laughed it off and completely bought into (for the record) his claims of "self defense."

This story is still unfolding, but to say there's NO evidence or indication of racial motivation is driving with your eyes closed.

Since I'm apparently blind, please enlighten us with your blatant FACTS this shooting was racially motivated.

1. Zimmerman had a history of being obsessed with black youths in his neighborhood.
2. The cops checked the victim's body for drugs, made no effort to contact his family EVEN though the possessed his cell phone...for several DAYS.
3. The cops did NOT search the SUV or check Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol.
5. Even though the shooter ignored the implicit request by the dispatcher to NOT follow the victim, he did so anyway and was apparently not charged with anything even though he broke every rule.
6. The killer had a known background for such things as assaulting an officer, this central Florida area seemed to have no problem giving him a gun permit.

I don't see this case as mere police incompetence. I see unequal treatment of a black victim and his white murderer.

I'm not talking about the police investigation. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt at first, but no longer. It's unmistakably clear they've bungled this from the very beginning.

As for the FACTS about it being a racially motivated shooting...

1. Zimmerman had a history of being obsessed with black youths in his neighborhood.

Where is there proof of of this?

Proof? I don't deal in proofs. This is neither a courtroom nor a math class. We can only deal in evidence, direct and indirect. I'm willing to accept that George Zimmerman MAY not have been a racist, but from the information we have seen so far, I tend to believe that when a huge man murders a black child only armed with Skittles, race is at the very least a component of the vague reasoning of this monstrosity of a human.

I'm more concerned with the obviously racially slanted police non-investigation. More will come out, and we'll have claims from many sides.

 

[Bocefish]

In other words, there are no so-called blatant facts to back up your claim of it being a racially motivated shooting.

The PD has F'ed this up from the start, no argument there. I also believe Zimmerman should be behind bars instead of walking the streets with a licensed firearm. Apparently, there is a history of racial problems with the Sanford PD, which is why the new Police Chief Bill Lee was supposedly brought in. I dunno why the Grand Jury has to wait until April 10th to hear this case. If there ever was a need to expedite things, this is it.

 

[Nordling]

In other words, there are no so-called blatant facts to back up your claim of it being a racially motivated shooting.

The PD has F'ed this up from the start, no argument there. I also believe Zimmerman should be behind bars instead of walking the streets with a licensed firearm. Apparently, there is a history of racial problems with the Sanford PD, which is why the new Police Chief Bill Lee was supposedly brought in. I dunno why the Grand Jury has to wait until April 10th to hear this case. If there ever was a need to expedite things, this is it.

Yeah, and apparently Bill Lee is no better than his predecessor. And now, if he really wanted to make a gesture, he would not have suspended himself "temporarily.' That's not good enough in my book. Resign, sir, you are a disgrace.

Back to Zimmerman--making a point of saying he is NOT being a bigot is not helping. People are pissed--very pissed by this incident and simply calling the shooter a lunatic is not cutting it. Sure, there's a slim chance that he's a great guy and simply goofed--and I'm not suggesting we panic. But bigot or saint, this dumb fuck is a murderer and belongs behind bars.

 

[Jupiter551]

This is horrifying. I think gun laws aren't the first issue here, and I think probably the shooter's impression that Trayvon was acting suspiciously and dangerous was confirmed in his own mind when he saw the kid was black. That's unprovable and not even, imo the root of the problem.

The ridiculous "Stand your ground" law that gave this idiot the confidence to patrol around looking for people to challenge, and then wrestle with and shoot, is a massive problem. For all we know it's the fact that he felt vindicated that the law was on his side that he had the nerve to be chasing and then wrestling and shooting a person just walking around.

 

[Nordling]

This is horrifying. I think gun laws aren't the first issue here, and I think probably the shooter's impression that Trayvon was acting suspiciously and dangerous was confirmed in his own mind when he saw the kid was black. That's unprovable and not even, imo the root of the problem.

The ridiculous "Stand your ground" law that gave this idiot the confidence to patrol around looking for people to challenge, and then wrestle with and shoot, is a massive problem. For all we know it's the fact that he felt vindicated that the law was on his side that he had the nerve to be chasing and then wrestling and shooting a person just walking around.

Agree. In fact, in Central Florida, even if the idiotic "stand your ground" laws didn't exist, I believe this crime would have proceeded just as it had. The SYG law and this incident are only loosely related.

 

[Jupiter551]

I have to say, the initial 911 conversation where the cop asked if the guy was white, black or hispanic (why not asian?) reminded me a bit of this Superbad scene...

 

[Bocefish]

Back to Zimmerman--making a point of saying he is NOT being a bigot is not helping. People are pissed--very pissed by this incident and simply calling the shooter a lunatic is not cutting it. Sure, there's a slim chance that he's a great guy and simply goofed--and I'm not suggesting we panic. But bigot or saint, this dumb fuck is a murderer and belongs behind bars.

Nobody here is saying he shouldn't be behind bars. However, almost everyone jumping to the conclusion that it was a racially motivated shooting definitely is not helping anything.

 

[Nordling]

 

[Bocefish]

Even the authors of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law say Zimmerman should be arrested!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1048164

The Florida lawmakers who crafted the state's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law said neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman should be arrested for shooting and killing unarmed teen Trayvon Martin.

Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley said the law they wrote in 2005, which allows someone who feels threatened to "meet force with force" without backing down first, was being misapplied in the shooting death of the 17-year-old, the Miami Herald reported.

"They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid," Peaden, a Republican, told the Herald. "He has no protection under my law."

EARLIER: MARTIN'S PARENTS SAY ZIMMERMAN IS GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER

Under the “Stand Your Ground” law, someone who feels threatened can used deadly force "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Self-defense laws in other states say that a victim has to make an attempt to retreat before resorting to killing, unless they are at home, under the so-called "castle doctrine."

Zimmerman has said he fired in self-defense because the teen came after him.

But Peaden and Baxley said that 911 tapes showing that Zimmerman followed Martin despite a dispatcher's request to stay away appeared to show that the 28-year-old crime watch volunteer was the aggressor.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Herald. "When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

The pair noted, hwoever, that they didn't know all the facts of the case and their opinions could change if new details were uncovered.

In recent days, as attention to the case has exploded around the country, the "Stand Your Ground" law has come into the crosshairs of activists, celebrities and political opponents calling for its repeal.

But Peaden said the policy was misunderstood and didn't provide protection for vigilantes who take the law into their own hands.

"He's kind of stretching a whole bunch of things," Peaden said of Zimmerman's self-defense claim. "And if he has a gun, that's premeditated. There's nothing in the Florida law that allows him to follow someone with a damn gun."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z1pupA1EFb

I still think it's a good law, it just needs to be modified so there are no loopholes that could be misunderstood.

 

[Nordling]

Good law? Good for what? Increasing "justified" homicide?

 

[Bocefish]

Good law? Good for what? Increasing "justified" homicide?

If need be, yes. I guess you'd rather be forced to flee from somebody threatening your life instead of being legally able to stand your ground and defend yourself.

 

[Nordling]

Deaths Nearly Triple Since “Stand Your Ground” Enacted

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/deaths-nearly-triple-since-stand-your-ground-enacted/

MIAMI (CBSMiami.com) – As some state lawmakers are calling for a re-thinking of Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, which allows people to defend themselves from danger without the need to first try to get away, an analysis of state data shows deaths due to self defense are up over 200 percent since the law took effect.

The shooting death of Trayvon Martin by an armed, self-appointed Central Florida crime watch volunteer who claimed he shot in self defense has sparked a national debate about Florida’s law, technically known as the Castle doctrine.

Until 2005, it was generally considered self defense if someone tried to get into your home or invade your property, so long as you could show deadly force was the last resort. In 2005, the “Stand your Ground” law removed the need to retreat before using force, even in public.

That’s the justification George Zimmerman used when he shot and killed Miami Gardens teen Treyvon Martin, who was returning to his father’s fiance’s house from a convenience store visit when Zimmerman spotted him and deemed him suspicious. Before the police he called arrived, he claims Martin attacked him and he shot in fear for his life.

Police accepted his story, and let him go, sparking national outrage. Zimmerman remains free.

That kind of thing is happening a lot, according to FDLE statistics obtained by CBS4′s David Sutta.

According to state crime stats, Florida averaged 12 “justifiable homicide” deaths a year from 2000-2004. After “Stand your Ground” was passed in 2005, the number of “justifiable” deaths has almost tripled to an average of 35 a year, an increase of 283% from 2005-2010.

“The Legislature needs to take a look at Stand Your Ground,” Florida Sen. Oscar Braynon, D-Miami Gardens told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald, “This is a perfect case of where it goes awry. This could only be the beginning of more problems down the road. It has unintended consequences.”

“When the Legislature passed this in 2005, I don’t think they planned for people who would go out and become vigilantes or be like some weird Batman who would go out and kill little kids like Trayvon.”

Gov. Rick Scott, speaking with reporters following a Cabinet meeting, agreed, though without committing to supporting any particular legislation. “When you see any violence it’s always positive to … go back and look at existing law and see the impact and the consequences of it,” Scott said.

“If there’s something that we need to adjust I’m hopeful that the Legislature would be interested in taking that up.”

[snip][end]

Why thank you, Evil Medicare-Defrauding Skeletor Man.

It’s not about maintaining penis pride. It’s about saving lives. Throwing a cute little macho bit of nonsense into the fray does little to advance the argument. This law was unecessary and in fact has had a very negative impact.

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah I saw the statistic about the justifiable homocide amount. Made me wonder how many intentional murders were covered up by devious use of the law.

 

[Bocefish]

Why thank you, Evil Medicare-Defrauding Skeletor Man.

It’s not about maintaining penis pride. It’s about saving lives. Throwing a cute little macho bit of nonsense into the fray does little to advance the argument. This law was unecessary and in fact has had a very negative impact.

LOL, now the name calling begins, classy move defending your point of view, typical though. Earlier, I said the law needs to be adjusted so it clarifies further what circumstances it can be applied so unintended consequences like this don't occur in the future. The entire law doesn't need to be tossed, just modified.

 

[Nordling]

Why thank you, Evil Medicare-Defrauding Skeletor Man.

It’s not about maintaining penis pride. It’s about saving lives. Throwing a cute little macho bit of nonsense into the fray does little to advance the argument. This law was unecessary and in fact has had a very negative impact.

LOL, now the name calling begins, classy move defending your point of view, typical though. Earlier, I said the law needs to be adjusted so it clarifies further what circumstances it can be applied so unintended consequences like this don't occur in the future. The entire law doesn't need to be tossed, just modified.

I was calling Rick Scott a name, not you. Read for comprehension please. lol I think it's very unlikely that Gov. Skeletor will read this board. If he does, I'll accept the guilt and tell him to go fuck himself.

It was you who made the little innuendo about "...maybe you don't want to defend...blah blah."

 

[Jupiter551]

it's a pity he wasn't governor of Florida while Arnie was governor of California -
Gov. Skeletor vs Gov. He-Man!

 

[Bocefish]

Why thank you, Evil Medicare-Defrauding Skeletor Man.

It’s not about maintaining penis pride. It’s about saving lives. Throwing a cute little macho bit of nonsense into the fray does little to advance the argument. This law was unecessary and in fact has had a very negative impact.

LOL, now the name calling begins, classy move defending your point of view, typical though. Earlier, I said the law needs to be adjusted so it clarifies further what circumstances it can be applied so unintended consequences like this don't occur in the future. The entire law doesn't need to be tossed, just modified.

I was calling Rick Scott a name, not you. Read for comprehension please. lol I think it's very unlikely that Gov. Skeletor will read this board. If he does, I'll accept the guilt and tell him to go fuck himself.

It was you who made the little innuendo about "...maybe you don't want to defend...blah blah."

lol, I thought the Evil Medicare-Defrauding Skeletor Man thing was a little odd and out of nowhere, but it's late and I'm tired, so didn't pick up on who you were addressing. Anyhow, I still think it's basically a good law, just needs more clarification. It's not right if the bad guys have more rights than law abiding citizens.

 

[lordmagellan]

For all we know it's the fact that he felt vindicated that the law was on his side that he had the nerve to be chasing and then wrestling and shooting a person just walking around.

I just listened to a report on a study that drew a related conclusion. It showed that people who are armed have a tendency to be more suspicions of others being armed. I don't remember if they became more aggressive or not.

 

[Nordling]

For all we know it's the fact that he felt vindicated that the law was on his side that he had the nerve to be chasing and then wrestling and shooting a person just walking around.

I just listened to a report on a study that drew a related conclusion. It showed that people who are armed have a tendency to be more suspicions of others being armed. I don't remember if they became more aggressive or not.

Certainly not everyone but yeah, I believe that some folks who carry heat are a little anxious to put it to use.

 

[Jupiter551]

For all we know it's the fact that he felt vindicated that the law was on his side that he had the nerve to be chasing and then wrestling and shooting a person just walking around.

I just listened to a report on a study that drew a related conclusion. It showed that people who are armed have a tendency to be more suspicions of others being armed. I don't remember if they became more aggressive or not.

Certainly not everyone but yeah, I believe that some folks who carry heat are a little anxious to put it to use.

Well this is just my opinion but I think parties being armed actually causes aggression to escalate to the point where someone does something stupid and someone else ends up dead.

Here in Australia we have our share of fistfights, but most of the time both parties end up walking away feeling a little sillier. If they had guns in their belts though...who knows.

Like what crime was this Zimmerman jackass even trying to prevent? A break-in? Carrying a gun to deter break-ins? Dunno what it's like there but over here if a thief breaks in all they want is a few valuables and get the fuck out, not to murder the homeowner for a dvd player or whatever it is that's feared. On the other hand, if I were a thief living in a country where a homeowner could shoot me just for being there (despite the morality of being a thief, compared to death that;s kinda beside the point) you're damn right I'd carry a gun and if the homeowner pulled one on me I'd probably use it. Not because I'm a bloodthirsty psychopath but because if I don't he probably will.

See how that works? You have a gun so now I need a gun, and since I have a gun you need a law that says it's okay to shoot without provocation and if we're both carrying and one or both of us looks the wrong way at the other the end result is this :violence-pistoldouble: :violence-rambo:

I understand you guys are very protective of your gun laws, but what is the use of allowing CONCEALED weapons? Having a gun for your own self-defense on your property I can understand but what the hell would you want to go around carrying a concealed weapon for? If someone mugs you, and they have a gun or a knife you're as likely to get yourself killed drawing a weapon as you are likely to kill them. Just hand over your cellphone and wallet and let the police handle it. A few items aren't worth your life - or his.

 

[Nordling]

Yups. And my personal experience has been that people I've known who have concealed weapons permits (1) just kind of thought it'd be cool and (2) were kind of odd in various ways.

Like one guy who we hired was hyperactive... I mean one of those guys who's constantly moving and talks very fast...like they're on speed. I finally had to ban him from drinking coffee at work. He was generally a nice guy but with the addition of coffee, he made customers nervous. And one night at a nearby watering hole, he got into a verbal altercation with some dude...he let the guy know he was packing and threatened to pull it out and use it on him. Both no nos. Suddenly it was no longer concealed technically because he let it be known that he had it. Thank the gods nothing happened, but if the other guy had been just a bit weirder, someone would have been dead.

 

[Bocefish]

Dunno what it's like there but over here if a thief breaks in all they want is a few valuables and get the fuck out, not to murder the homeowner for a dvd player or whatever it is that's feared. On the other hand, if I were a thief living in a country where a homeowner could shoot me just for being there (despite the morality of being a thief, compared to death that;s kinda beside the point) you're damn right I'd carry a gun and if the homeowner pulled one on me I'd probably use it. Not because I'm a bloodthirsty psychopath but because if I don't he probably will.

That seems like backassward logic to me, no offence. If a homeowner may be armed, the thief now believes it's in his best interest to be armed? I get the premise of your gun violence begets gun violence, but that's like saying the thief has the right to come steal your shit and you have no right to try and stop it.

Yeah, these guys just wanted to come and take their shit too, right? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -date.html

In regards to CCW in watering holes... every state has different laws in that regard. This is a good place for more info on what certain state laws allow: http://www.handgunlaw.us/