Why Are Black Females On MFC Afraid To Say That They Are BLK?

[EspiKvlt]

Why are men always referring to women as "females"?

Fucking males

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Why do picnics always happen in "tubs full of green jello"?

 

[MFCGod]

Why are men always referring to women as "females"?

@JickyJuly posted earlier in the thread about the use of the word "female", she said she found it to be dehumanizing

There is a thread started by Amber called "The Cam Guy Thread (Male model stuff!)"

I notice the use of "male" in the title has no been questioned or disputed (at least publicly). You could say the need to specify gender was important in the context, but that's why I personally feel intent and context are vastly more important than individual words

I would find it absolutely ludicrous to claim Amber meant anything at all negative with her title, let alone trying to dehumanize anyone

There is enough real discrimination going on, I feel like like teaching people to be offended by simple words is an unhealthy distraction

 

[EspiKvlt]

@JickyJuly posted earlier in the thread about the use of the word "female", she said she found it to be dehumanizing

There is a thread started by Amber called "The Cam Guy Thread (Male model stuff!)"

I notice the use of "male" in the title has no been questioned or disputed (at least publicly)

Personally I feel intent and context are more important than individual words

I would find it absolutely ludicrous to claim Amber meant anything at all negative with her title, let alone trying to dehumanize anyone

There is enough real discrimination going on, I feel like like teaching people to be offended by simple words is an unhealthy distraction

Huge difference between calling someone a female model and calling women "females." Words have connotations, and the connotations in these two phrases are different.

 

[MFCGod]

Huge difference between calling someone a female model and calling women "females." Words have connotations, and the connotations in these two phrases are different.

You've learned and now feel there is a huge difference, what about someone who hasn't?

There are people who don't know the difference between lose and loose, you might find someone seems uneducated by using the wrong one but you wouldn't feel they were being hateful or belittling and take it personally

 

[AmberCutie]

I admittedly don't find any offense in being called a female, nor to the use of the terms males and females, but:

females = using the word as a (plural)noun
female model = using the word as an adjective

This part of it isn't a matter of being offended, just the fact that these words are used in the English language.

 

[Lorelei]

@JickyJuly posted earlier in the thread about the use of the word "female", she said she found it to be dehumanizing

There is a thread started by Amber called "The Cam Guy Thread (Male model stuff!)"

I notice the use of "male" in the title has no been questioned or disputed (at least publicly)

Personally I feel intent and context are more important than individual words

I would find it absolutely ludicrous to claim Amber meant anything at all negative with her title, let alone trying to dehumanize anyone

There is enough real discrimination going on, I feel like like teaching people to be offended by simple words is an unhealthy distraction

We are complaining about "female" being used as a noun—"Females are crazy. Females get offended too easily." Or simply "The females in Paris are really into wearing boots this season." A noun is a person, place, or thing.

"The Cam Guy Thread (Male Model Stuff)" uses the word "male" as an adjective. An adjective is a word that describes a noun.

Your argument is completely apples-to-oranges and makes zero grammatical sense.

***

The majority of cam models identify as being human beings who are female. Being female is not dehumanizing. Being called "a female" can be. Perhaps we can liken this to the "Asian" (an ethnicity) vs. "Oriental" (an object) issue.

As for "real discrimination," yeah, there's more serious stuff going on. Most people who use "female" as a noun probably don't mean to offend women. That said, women are 51% of the world population, and when it comes to identity politics (no matter how you feel about them), we're a pretty big group. I don't think mentioning that not liking to be called "a female" is teaching anyone to be offended by "simple words."

Lastly, an "unhealthy distraction"? Really? Saying "hey, I don't really like that and I think a lot of people agree with me, so would you mind not calling us that?" is unhealthy? Saying "you shouldn't be bothered by this because there are worse problems" is a logical fallacy—(look up the "not as bad as fallacy" aka "relative privation").

***

This thread was started to discuss why black women might not want to identify themselves as black on camsites—namely because many of them don't like the way they are treated when they claim that identity. You're now arguing that women shouldn't get upset when they're being called something that they don't want to be called. There's a parallel here.


Edited to add: @AmberCutie beat me to it on the grammar note! I had a lot to say, sorry.

 

[MFCGod]

The majority of cam models identify as being human beings who are female. Being female is not dehumanizing. Being called "a female" can be. Perhaps we can liken this to the "Asian" (an ethnicity) vs. "Oriental" (an object) issue.

Where would one learn these things? and if you don't know them, would that you make you inherently hateful?

From what you've said I think you agree that generally no malice is intended, it's just a case of (in your opinion) a poor choice of words

My real problem is when a poor choice of words is given to be proof someone is hateful; It worries me when people inject meaning that isn't there

Lastly, an "unhealthy distraction"? Really? Saying "hey, I don't really like that and I think a lot of people agree with me, so would you mind not calling us that?" is unhealthy? Saying "you shouldn't be bothered by this because there are worse problems" is a logical fallacy—(look up the "not as bad as fallacy" aka "relative privation")..

I think it's unhealthy to take offence if no offence is meant to be given

I think it divides people and breeds contempt

Who decides what words are offensive? will we all have to use gender neutral pronouns soon in fear of committing hate crimes punishable by law?

 

[EspiKvlt]

will we all have to use gender neutral pronouns soon in fear of committing hate crimes punishable by law?

Is saying they to avoid triggering dysphoria that big of a deal?

I'm a gender neutral person who prefers they pronouns, but when someone misgenders me, I politely correct them and just move on. And I agree that making it punishable by law is a little silly. But still, how hard is to just call everyone "they" until you know their preferred pronouns? It's one letter longer than "she" and the same amount of syllables.

And as someone who has misgendered cis people on accident before and had them get mad at me, I promise you that just calling people "they" until you know for sure what their gender is just makes life easier for everybody.

(Huge derail, I know, but as a nonbinary person I'm pretty passionate on this topic.)

 

[JoleneBrody]

There is a difference between saying "hey please don't call me that, I don't like it" and accusing someone of being intentionally hateful.

If they just don't know many don't like it, how will they ever learn if no one is allowed to say anything?

 

[MFCGod]

There is a difference between saying "hey please don't call me that, I don't like it" and accusing someone of being intentionally hateful.

If in conversation with someone they said females instead of women, In all honesty would that lower your view of them? would it discredit opinions they shared or make it less likely you would want to listen to their opinion to begin with?

Do you think it would change their opinion on you?

I know personally that I hate being corrected on my spelling and grammar (and that's true for most people) + being corrected on those things isn't as much of a personal attack and being told I'm attempting to dehumanize someone

Id feel terrible and defensive if told that

 

[JoleneBrody]

If in conversation with someone they said females instead of women, In all honesty would that lower your view of them? would it discredit opinions they shared or make it less likely you would want to listen to their opinion to begin with?

No, not on use of that would alone. If I said "hey, please don't call me that, I don't like it" and they got agro then I would definitely have a lower view of them from that point on but for unrelated reasons.

 

[ExcellaExe]

Agreed on the "I would lower my judgement of them if they ignored my request to not call me that." It would be like me saying "Don't call me squaw" and someone then not only keeps using it, but gets upset that I asked them not to use it. Though it's not quite on the same level, it's still somewhat pertinent to the discussion. Most non-natives don't know that squaw is a slur against native women, so the first time I chalk it up to ignorance, second time is when my opinion of them starts to tank. If someone asks you not to call them, themselves, something, maybe don't do it?

 

[MFCGod]

No, not on use of that would alone. If I said "hey, please don't call me that, I don't like it" and they got agro then I would definitely have a lower view of them from that point on but for unrelated reasons.

That's rational and understandable, I fear not everyone shares that point of view

 

[Mikey_P]

It seems a bit petty to complain every time a male uses the word female! I don't understand why when it is used without any hatred that someone would complain. I understand disliking in a specific context-- 'Those females are all alike' but other uses should be fine. Yes, language matters and it programs us but context and intention matter as well.

 

[JoleneBrody]

It seems a bit petty to complain every time a male uses the word female! I don't understand why when it is used without any hatred that someone would complain. I understand disliking in a specific context-- 'Those females are all alike' but other uses should be fine. Yes, language matters and it programs us but context and intention matter as well.

Of course, it depends on the usage I don't think anyone said otherwise but this thread is like 100 years old and I'm not about to read the whole thing again LOL.

 

[Mikey_P]

Of course, it depends on the usage I don't think anyone said otherwise.

It was implied much earlier in this thread that I was wrong for using female in my title because it dehumanizes women. My title to some ppl could imply that black females universally do what I complained about in this thread-- hide and make it hard to find them on MFC. So I am responding to all of the different arguments about the use of female and not just the most recent ones. I'm shocked that ppl are still posting in this thread because it is so old!

 

[JoleneBrody]

It was implied much earlier in this thread that I was wrong for using female in my title because it dehumanizes women. My title to some ppl could imply that black females universally do what I complained about in this thread-- hide and make it hard to find them on MFC. So I am responding to all of the different arguments about the use of female and not just the most recent ones. I'm shocked that ppl are still posting in this thread because it is so old!

Yeah we've got a mass grave digger bringing things back up.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Is saying they to avoid triggering dysphoria that big of a deal?

I'm a gender neutral person who prefers they pronouns, but when someone misgenders me, I politely correct them and just move on. And I agree that making it punishable by law is a little silly. But still, how hard is to just call everyone "they" until you know their preferred pronouns? It's one letter longer than "she" and the same amount of syllables.

And as someone who has misgendered cis people on accident before and had them get mad at me, I promise you that just calling people "they" until you know for sure what their gender is just makes life easier for everybody.

(Huge derail, I know, but as a nonbinary person I'm pretty passionate on this topic.)

I think this is a good example of can't please everyone; personally I find "they" to be dehumanizing. I'm nonbinary in that I identify as neither woman or male, and scientifically likely have a brain that is akin to male due to Aspergers, and have spent significant amounts of my life dressing male. Maybe it's because "they" has always meant plural to me. But I would rather someone call me either him or her than they; they makes me feel like a removed entity. I wish we had better words for gender neutral pronouns.

 

[Val Vega]

Bunch of them femaliens here.

 

[EspiKvlt]

I think this is a good example of can't please everyone; personally I find "they" to be dehumanizing. I'm nonbinary in that I identify as neither woman or male, and scientifically likely have a brain that is akin to male due to Aspergers, and have spent significant amounts of my life dressing male. Maybe it's because "they" has always meant plural to me. But I would rather someone call me either him or her than they; they makes me feel like a removed entity. I wish we had better words for gender neutral pronouns.

I just rated your post helpful cus there's no "thanks for the new perspective" option lol

Good enough

 

[Val Vega]

So as most of you know, I'm one of those newfangled chicks with a dick. Despite that, I'm really not all that keen on being called a woman. In an ideal world, I would have been born more in line with what I choose to present as, but I wasn't. No matter how much I might pass as a woman (which I often do not) and some of the experiences I have might be reminiscient of being a woman, my life's trajectory and experiences are inevitably colored by me being born a man. People say they feel like they are men or women, but I just do not honestly know what being a man or woman really is when you get down to it. Even now being in this space with a lot of you I feel like I'm invading. All I know is that I do not feel like a woman. And I make for a piss poor man.

I feel like I was going somewhere with this, but the train derailed somewhere along the way.

 

[Gen]

People say they feel like they are men or women, but I just do not honestly know what being a man or woman really is when you get down to it.

I really value you saying this because it's something I've always wondered about but every time I've tried to ask in queer/feminist spaces it's something people either can't explain or immediately get defensive about being asked. It doesn't really matter to me how anyone identifies or why, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of feeling like a man or woman (or both, or neither, or whatever other mix) without it being based on stereotypes. I do understand and recognize dysphoria for sure, but I've seen a lot of discussion about how dysphoria isn't (or shouldn't be) necessary for people to consider themselves trans. So it just doesn't make sense in my head as to what those feelings are. (Again, it doesn't ultimately matter a lot -- everyone should identify and present however they want. I'm just curious about it.)

Sorry for further thread derail but your comment resonated with me so I wanted to thank you for it and say I'm very glad you're on this forum!!

 

[MikeTO]

@JickyJuly posted earlier in the thread about the use of the word "female", she said she found it to be dehumanizing

There is a thread started by Amber called "The Cam Guy Thread (Male model stuff!)"

I notice the use of "male" in the title has no been questioned or disputed (at least publicly). You could say the need to specify gender was important in the context, but that's why I personally feel intent and context are vastly more important than individual words

I would find it absolutely ludicrous to claim Amber meant anything at all negative with her title, let alone trying to dehumanize anyone

There is enough real discrimination going on, I feel like like teaching people to be offended by simple words is an unhealthy distraction

Micro aggression? It's all about manipulation. I wouldn't conform to it if I was you.

 

[Val Vega]

I really value you saying this because it's something I've always wondered about but every time I've tried to ask in queer/feminist spaces it's something people either can't explain or immediately get defensive about being asked. It doesn't really matter to me how anyone identifies or why, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of feeling like a man or woman (or both, or neither, or whatever other mix) without it being based on stereotypes. I do understand and recognize dysphoria for sure, but I've seen a lot of discussion about how dysphoria isn't (or shouldn't be) necessary for people to consider themselves trans. So it just doesn't make sense in my head as to what those feelings are. (Again, it doesn't ultimately matter a lot -- everyone should identify and present however they want. I'm just curious about it.)

Sorry for further thread derail but your comment resonated with me so I wanted to thank you for it and say I'm very glad you're on this forum!!

Yeah, to me it seems utterly impossible to divest being a man or woman from stereotypes. I actually did not really have dysphoria until after I began transitioning, which it then became utterly abysmal. Before I started, it was just about wanting to become more like how I would like myself to be. Afterwards, as I got deeper and deeper into transitioning, the dysphoria began to mount because I wasn't being successful at being what I wanted to be and having to deal with a lot of hate from people.

And thank you!

 

[fandango]

I think this is a good example of can't please everyone; personally I find "they" to be dehumanizing. I'm nonbinary in that I identify as neither woman or male, and scientifically likely have a brain that is akin to male due to Aspergers, and have spent significant amounts of my life dressing male. Maybe it's because "they" has always meant plural to me. But I would rather someone call me either him or her than they; they makes me feel like a removed entity. I wish we had better words for gender neutral pronouns.

I wouldn't be trying to upset anyone but I would find it very difficult to use they in conversation when referring to a single person as it implies a group to me too. The wrong word would just slip out.

Somone might say "Where is he/she going" which would imply a single person or "Where are they going" which would imply two or more people. I guess someone could say "Where is they going" to refer to a single person in an non gender waybut that sounds grammatically wrong and I would assume that person is an idiot before realising it was to keep to gender neutral pronouns.

I think it would be best to come up with a new word that would be gender neutral rather than trying to redifine an existing word and creating inherant confusion.

 

[EspiKvlt]

I think it would be best to come up with a new word that would be gender neutral rather than trying to redifine an existing word and creating inherant confusion.

It isn't redefining anything. They has been used as a singular gender neutral pronoun in English since the Middle Ages.

 

[Sevrin]

I think it would be best to come up with a new word that would be gender neutral rather than trying to redefine an existing word and creating inherent confusion.

That's been tried. A lot. The alternatives suck a lot harder than "they", which has withstood the test of time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Summary

 

[EspiKvlt]

That's been tried. A lot. The alternatives suck a lot harder than "they", which has withstood the test of time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-person_pronoun#Summary

Also: this, yes. When people do try things like zi/zir, they just get made fun of, and we clearly can't win. So the best option for me is to go with something comfortable.

 

[Mikey_P]

I'm all for ppl choosing what they want but i don't like when they then demand that society bend for them.