Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[Magnolia]

I am of the belief that all sex workers are equal and deserve equal access regardless of gender identities and genitalia. That being said, models post in model's only with the expectation that ONLY fellow female models will be reading them, and there lies the problem. To open up years of posts with those expectations already placed I think would be wrong and against what any model had in mind when making those posts, essentially betraying the trust of expected privacy.

I think all the important industry information, discussions, and resources should absolutely be available for all sex workers who care to get verified. I don't run a forum and I'm not experienced in such things, but I feel like maybe a solution would be to create a NEW model's only. Include all the important threads and such from the current one, but allow those who expected privacy to be able to keep it locked away. Or even whole different sections for Trans Model's Only and Male Model's Only, where women cannot go.

While I personally wouldn't mind sex workers of all types having access to model's only, it's been clearly stated that some other ladies do. I respect @AmberCutie for keeping her word about maintaining access to model's only to just women, because that's what the women posting there expected at the time.

I'll start this post off by saying that I'm taking the night off of camming (my actual job, lol) during my rank megamonth to dive into the process of a new format for ACF. I think many folks feel like it's just the flip of a switch and your wishes are granted as far as how the forum is run. Yes, it's been a couple years since I said I may update the process, so my apologies for the delay. However, Jawbs and I have been brainstorming for a long long while on how to implement a change to the forum that made it more inclusive to everyone.

The ultimate move will be to make site specific subforums available to cam models who are approved and active on those cam sites. This way, folks who are actively camming on specific cam sites are approved for access to a private area for their cam site(s) to exchange chat with their "coworkers", regardless of how they identify. There will also be general areas where ALL approved cam models can convene regardless of site affiliation. The current "Additional Verification" thread will be restarted, and every cam model or couple will post there with a picture and links to their active cam site profiles. Any active cam model will be eligible for their applicable site section.

My hip surgery in early 2015 certainly set us back as we were focusing on my recovery, and making the most of my up-time to get my MFC schedule back on track. But now I'm back on my feet, and, since plans were in the works already and this subject comes to blinding light again in the last 2 days, I'll go ahead set some extra time aside to finalize the next/current step to get it underway right now instead of waiting until next month.

The first step toward this was moving to this forum software that would allow us to re-format permissions and subforums (done!).

The next step was identifying the path of least resistance as far as future verification and site organization goes. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, not every girl who has posted in the private section would be open to the idea of their Models Only posts being veiwed by a larger audience than what currently exists. Knowing this, I've already created a few site specific subforum categories to test out how that separation went.

Current step is putting up a dev forum so I can rearrange this thing to high-hell, move and archive some current content, and figure out the final format so that it isn't a jumbled mess when it goes live. I'll make as much progress on that as I can before I run out of gas tonight. Then final pushes will be done very soon.

Last step will be the new approval process, which will likely start in April to give all current ACF models time to help me reorganize previous threads in a comfortable way. (And so I can focus on my megamonth without a ton of extra sidetracking. )

As noted above, it isn't just an on/off switch.

Next I will say that discussion is fine and always encouraged, but comments like this:



only serve to insult the person who uses her personal private time to make this place run. It's really just vague name-calling. So if we could not say stuff like this, that would be appreciated. In the past I have welcomed others to create and run their own camming forum if they were unhappy being part of mine when some have assumed "it can't be that hard".

Anyway, It was never a personal bias. It should not need to be stated again, but I personally have NO issues with how people choose to identify themselves. Trying to use the fact that both my husband and I haven't had the personal time to make the necessary changes to the forum and policies as a indicator of my beliefs is pretty uncalled for and unnecessary.

And seriously...


The ultimate reason that ACF hasn't been updated IS because I was afraid of the approval process being a judgment call that could create a huge mess or cause backlash, and additionally not having time to dedicate to implementing propery changes to the format... can you just not? The words used in your post are a bit more inflammatory than necessary to get that point across, friend.


I do not get BAF or other cam site affiliate income from ACF whatsoever for years now. Back in the early years, I made a few BAF tokens that were sent to other models. I've turned down many sponsor requests to keep ACF clear of banners and ads. I've made precisely $67 over the last couple months from people buying ACF owl gear, but that's all. So yes, this is me running this for you all in my off-cam time, models and members alike. As you note yes my name gets exposure for being at the top of this site, but that can also be a really big responsibility and burden, as we address here with this whole subject, for example.


When I first put this up, yes it was only MFC.

In the past we have dealt with some very persistent trolls whom I have NO doubt would have gone to lengths to get verified on CB to have access to the MO section. Many people here don't know the behind the scenes effort that has gone into dealing with these individuals.

So to wrap this up so I can get to work, I understand and hear everyone's concerns. Clearly I've been defensive of my reasons for doing things how I do because this is NOT my job and it can feel like an attack, or people being entitled or unappreciative, when people go dictating how things should run here at ACF. If you could avoid posting inflammatory remarks and judgey comments in this thread, I'd really be appreciative. I'm working on it. I'll need some assistance in the coming weeks to get things underway, and I'd rather do this in a friendly environment where I don't feel my character is under attack.

Thanks for reading.

Apparently I missed an entire page when reading earlier. Super looking forward to the how this site will evolve.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Not everyone that has this belief is a backwater simpleton.
Now you are becoming insulting.

well, it seems to be the belief you're not permitted to express in polite company today.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry that you feel excluded because you are nonbinary and sexwork often defines us by a gender binary? I can't rewrite the world for you here. My point the entire time was, trans women identify as women and are women...

and since you've missed it, I'd clarify that my only point has been that I don't know what you mean when you put those letters down as if they're words, and (if the inability to answer basic questions is any measure) it seems like you don't, either.

if you said your pet was a quokka or a skink, and I said 'a what? what is that?', you'd have no problem explaining what it is, such that anyone reading could identify one if there was one in their back yard tomorrow; yet you can't manage the same straightforward reply for something you seem to think is very important.
(for you American readers, a quokka is anything that is rightly identified as a quokka).

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

and since you've missed it, I'd clarify that my only point has been that I don't know what you mean when you put those letters down as if they're words, and (if the inability to answer basic questions is any measure) it seems like you don't, either.

Please do feel free to start a new thread about your confusion regarding how to identify yourself then? I feel that everything I've said is quite clear and I do not wish to engage further with you on this topic because I feel that it is important for everyone to decide their own identity. Here I'm about to go repeating myself, personal identity is personal.

 

[Miss_Lollipop]

Amber.. ❤❤❤❤

I said my bit about my feelings earlier so I'm not gonna weigh in in the changes just yet.. i still need to read through properly. Regardless of what changes are made exactly but im incredibly grateful you have taken on the issue. I know it's been complicated to navigate. And i know it will be more complicated. Thank you for everything you do..

 

[fandango]

I think what @uncoveredmanhole in his terribly unclear, rouindabout and overly complicated way is simply trying to ask what is the defiinition of a woman, or man?

It used to be a simple question to answer but now is so complex I literally have no idea and it doesn't even seem like there is an answer. What used to be black and white is now just a huge sea of grey.

This whole issue is a huge can of worms and for everyone happy Amber is opening things up it seems there are other models unhappy they're losing their safe place. I don't envy Ambers situation at all as it is whatever she does here someone is going to be complaining.

 

[Zana]

I'm all for allowing others in. But I wish there was a way that all models that are currently verified, could still have access to the threads that are currently MO in a private way (just maybe not able to start new threads, just lock in the ones we already have for use) but have like a sub forum (I don't know the right terminology) where we could have the same threads but new, for everyone who chooses, to use.

There's so many threads, old and new, in MO that I go back and read and get help from all the time, that I would be sad to lose. And like others have said, there are threads that I love, that I and other models would no longer post in, being more public, and that makes me sad, because I know we'll lose a lot of models that are so helpful.

 

[TeganTrex]

I feel super conflicted about this whole thing but I'm only here to offer one point of advice.

We demand a whole lot of free shit from Amber, and practically demanding she do this, and pointing out things like this in a public setting where other people can come here and just assume that Amber is potentially transphobic (when she's not) while she's doing a mega month is entitled as fuck.

I think it's time we start paying a subscription fee, or donating to her in some fiscal, monetary way. Camgirls demand members pay them for their emotional labor, and Amber has been doing that for 7 years for fucking free.

All the emotional labor and drama of separating girls, listening to us bitch amongst the others, sorting out drama while trying to remain objective and non-judgemental, ON TOP OF THE MANUAL LABOR OF CODING, and now every one wants to add a huge amount of emotional labor AND potential political flack AND stress with out offering monetary compensation?

Dick move, because clearly NO ONE ELSE is willing to step up and accept that labor.

I'm completely FOR including ALL MODELS of ALL GENDERS into model's only in some ways. But, she definitely deserves to be paid for this, by the hour, for all of the cam time we are taking from her.

As she as said multiple times, in ways I don't think many people understand, THIS IS NOT HER JOB. So donate. Tokens are preferable.

 

[AmberCutie]

I'm all for allowing others in. But I wish there was a way that all models that are currently verified, could still have access to the threads that are currently MO in a private way (just maybe not able to start new threads, just lock in the ones we already have for use) but have like a sub forum (I don't know the right terminology) where we could have the same threads but new, for everyone who chooses, to use.

There's so many threads, old and new, in MO that I go back and read and get help from all the time, that I would be sad to lose. And like others have said, there are threads that I love, that I and other models would no longer post in, being more public, and that makes me sad, because I know we'll lose a lot of models that are so helpful.

That is almost exactly the plan, actually.

Current content will be archived in a Read Only subforum that all currently verified models will have access to. New threads will be created in new areas with similar information.

So the girls who are feeling scared about previous posts being able to be read by all new models, not the case. Take a deep breath.

I feel super conflicted about this whole thing but I'm only here to offer one point of advice.

We demand a whole lot of free shit from Amber, and practically demanding she do this, and pointing out things like this in a public setting where other people can come here and just assume that Amber is potentially transphobic (when she's not) while she's doing a mega month is entitled as fuck.

I think it's time we start paying a subscription fee, or donating to her in some fiscal, monetary way. Camgirls demand members pay them for their emotional labor, and Amber has been doing that for 7 years for fucking free.

All the emotional labor and drama of separating girls, listening to us bitch amongst the others, sorting out drama while trying to remain objective and non-judgemental, ON TOP OF THE MANUAL LABOR OF CODING, and now every one wants to add a huge amount of emotional labor AND potential political flack AND stress with out offering monetary compensation?

Dick move, because clearly NO ONE ELSE is willing to step up and accept that labor.

I'm completely FOR including ALL MODELS of ALL GENDERS into model's only in some ways. But, she definitely deserves to be paid for this, by the hour, for all of the cam time we are taking from her.

As she as said multiple times, in ways I don't think many people understand, THIS IS NOT HER JOB. So donate. Tokens are preferable.

I appreciate this gesture, but I certainly wouldn't feel right saying I expect payment. I always expected a level of respect and understanding, though, which some days and threads like this that seem so demanding feel lacking in that. So, thank you for acknowledging me.

 

[AmberCutie]

I don't run a forum and I'm not experienced in such things, but I feel like maybe a solution would be to create a NEW model's only. Include all the important threads and such from the current one, but allow those who expected privacy to be able to keep it locked away. Or even whole different sections for Trans Model's Only and Male Model's Only, where women cannot go.

There will be no "women* only" or "men only" or "trans only" sections. That's sort of the whole point of this reorganization of the forum.

*the exception of course being the MyFreeCams section or future cam site sections that are not inclusive of all.

 

[Finley]

Men have always had a safe space, it's called the world. Even in this industry, men are NOT as stigmatized in women, and even congratulated for being such a man (aka: getting paid to jerk off, fuck, whatever). Yeah, not perfect, but they are definitely not as stigmatized as women. Trans women are women and I feel safe being around them. Trans women are not men. Having space for everyone is great, but I don't know...it really seems like there's a lot lost in translation right now and it's either all or nothing, which will completely change the dynamic.

I guess I'm entitled though. Is this where we start using the #notallmen hastag or...

 

[Finley]

@Zana Don't fucking even, you are the biggest facepalm of all

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

Is this now an open thread for discussing "verification" reform? Show me your papers bb.

I think verifying performers by site that they are active on is a very valid concept, makes perfect sense. How active are we talking?

 

[Guy]

Even in this industry, men are NOT as stigmatized in women, and even congratulated for being such a man (aka: getting paid to jerk off, fuck, whatever). Yeah, not perfect, but they are definitely not as stigmatized as women.

Thats no doubt because of sexual double standards and slut shaming in our society.

 

[Finley]

@Mollie_ That's a good question. I woudn't want to be in a forum discussing current work related things with someone who is not an active SW tbh

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

Thats no doubt because of sexual double standards and slut shaming in our society.

We know, don't worry.

 

[AmberCutie]

Men have always had a safe space, it's called the world.

Just a reminder that the MO section is not a "safe space" it is a private area of a camming forum.

 

[Confessor]

Thank you Pluot for making this thread. This is something that has really bothered me since I first heard about this forum, as acceptance and removal of stigma for ALL people is something close to my heart. As a member, I didn't think I would my input would be considered, so one of the reasons I made the confession on twitter was the hope that some models felt the same way. I'm happy to see how many do, and that changes are being worked on.

If I may add one thing, please remember that the words you used matter, especially towards stigmatized people. Even some of you who sound like your hearts are in the right place have said things like 'models only has been for women only and not trans people', which implies that trans women are not women. Sure trans women deal with some different issues than cis women, but models deal with some different issues than 9-5 workers. But you wouldn't want people to say "my friend Sally gets naked online but the rest of my friends have real jobs". The language you use has an effect. As people who are stigmatized yourselves, I hope you understand that more than most.

Thank you again to everyone who spoke up.

 

[Finley]

Just a reminder that the MO section is not a "safe space" it is a private area of a camming forum.

I think you are taking it more literally than I meant. Of course anyone can see info at any time, but because it is women (and trans women would def be included in this because thy are in fact women) it is inherently "safer" in feeling, more comfortable talking with one another. I don't hate men, but women need their own spaces away from men.

 

[TeganTrex]

Is this where we start using the #notallmen hastag or...

So where do we draw the line then Finley? All women are okay but non-binary folk aren't? Anyone BUT men? Does that include transmen, for whom the world is NOT a safe place? Only the people for whom you feel safe around?

This has never been clear-cut and that's a good part of the reason things never changed in the first place. Yes, the world is a safe space for men, but it's not a safe space for gay men who there are a ton of on CB for example. Do these gay men not deserve excess in to resources and support that can help them in an industry that is quite harder for gay men and transmen to make money in?

At this point, I think it is only fair and progressive to acknowledge all models or not in work-relevant spaces. I'm not losing my personal safe space for a cherrypicked version of what inclusivity means. If I lose that space, it better be for everyone.

And calling Zana a facepalm is literally what I was talking about when I meant about emotional labor. Be adults here.

If you don't like it then make your own forum.

 

[Magnolia]

There will be no "women* only" or "men only" or "trans only" sections. That's sort of the whole point of this reorganization of the forum.

*the exception of course being the MyFreeCams section or future cam site sections that are not inclusive of all.

Ah sorry, I missed reading a whole page earlier about your plans when I wrote that. I look forward to what you're doing and think it's great. ^_^

 

[Nikola Tesla]

what is the defiinition of a woman, or man?

It used to be a simple question to answer but now is so complex

A man has both the X and the Y chromosome. This is a man

A woman has two X chromosomes. This is a woman.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I am not meaning to single out your post Fandango.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

I don't know how I feel about this but big hugs to you @AmberCutie who has the only forum I've ever been a part of where members are generally given such a big say. It's bullshit to know that you'll be judged and spoken to so poorly regardless of what decisions you make and how you make any changes. I'm thankful for this forum and if I end up no longer enjoying it as much then who cares, the world doesn't revolve around me. I am not owed this forum, none of us are.

 

[TeganTrex]

A man has both the X and the Y chromosome. This is a man

A woman has two X chromosomes. This is a woman.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I am not meaning to single out your post Fandango.

Let's keep the actual topic of gender/sex/biology to a different thread. Identity politics aren't necessary here because the changes have already been determined.

However, I would love to discuss with you in a civil matter about how I disagree with ya in a different thread if you are so inclined

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Let's keep the actual topic of gender/sex/biology to a different thread. Identity politics aren't necessary here because the changes have already been determined.

Just pointing out, that actually IS a topic of this thread. It was brought up right in the original post.

Trans women ARE women. Genitals don't define gender.

 

[TeganTrex]

Just pointing out, that actually IS a topic of this thread. It was brought up right in the original post.

I understand that, but conversations and topics do change and evolve, and identity politics are clearly controversial. I'd rather have a dedicated and potentially heated topic thread that is separate from this thread that directly related to why transwomen weren't allowed in the MO section, and that question has been answered. I feel like continuing this discussion in this thread will make Amber look bad because of the controversial nature of the topic.

However, I have objective and scientific reasons why it's not as simple as XY=man and XX=women that I would love to discuss if people are interested.

 

[MFCGod]

Men have always had a safe space, it's called the world.

I was watching some interviews the other day about wrestlers (the entertainment kind), talking about how as young men coming up in the business in the 60s/70s/80s they were sexually abused by promoters, bookers, established wrestlers,

If you look at the army you will also find many stories of young men being sexually abused

If you look at prisons you will find men being sexually abused

In the entertainment industries you hear of abuse

I'm sure I could think of more examples..

Sadly it seems almost anywhere you find a structure of power with younger men at the bottom, there will be cases of sexual abuse

So no, men aren't always in a safe space.

 

[THE MOLLIE MARIE]

I was watching some interviews the other day about wrestlers (the entertainment kind), talking about how as young men coming up in the business in the 60s/70s/80s they were sexually abused by promoters, bookers, established wrestlers,

If you look at the army you will also find many stories of young men being sexually abused

If you look at prisons you will find men being sexually abused

In the entertainment industries you hear of abuse

I'm sure I could think of more examples..

Sadly it seems almost anywhere you find a structure of power with younger men at the bottom, there will be cases of sexual abuse

So no, men aren't always in a safe space.

Start a new thread about how unsafe it is to be a man, this is unrelated.

 

[MFCGod]

Start a new thread about how unsafe it is to be a man, this is unrelated.

I didn't bring it up out of nowhere, If someone says "Men have always had a safe space, it's called the world." I feel like it needs to be addressed for its absurdity

Starting a new thread would be OTT a single post did it, I'm not trying to derail the thread or change the topic, please continue on.

 

[AmberCutie]

Current Verified MO thread - New ACF format - coming soon - details here