Why aren't trans women allowed models only access?

[uncoveredmanhole]

Here is a radical thought, maybe we should let people, be people?

never!! my licence must declare that I'm a Jedi and a wolf pup, otherwise I just won't know how to get through the day.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

For that matter, how are the cisgendered "supposed to live"?

indeed. that's why we can talk about this as a linguistic/sociological/philosophical hypothesis with cis people, instead of making out it's just a trans issue and a rights issue and a policy issue.

if you can't tell me how I have to be in order to be right to think I'm a cis-man, then does being a man really mean anything, whether cis or trans?

I could be me and transform into being a great CEO or a great basketball player, emulating CEOs and basketball players I've seen, but are men, by comparison, not so diverse that transforming myself into an emulation of one of them could be vastly different from yet other men, and even little different to doing so with some woman, though very different from other women? ... Unless you can articulate what is necessary and what is sufficient for the term 'man' to be applied correctly, you're just talking without actually saying anything.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

you're just talking without actually saying anything.

Well, you are the current resident expert on the subject.

 

[CharlieCharma]

A while back I had a pretty bad acid trip. I didn't know who I was, if I was a boy or a girl, poor or rich, how old I was. Anything. I was absolutely panicked because I didn't want to be a boy. I was having a complete meltdown over this.

Now, drugs are drugs are drugs, and it seems a little strange bringing them up in this thread, but I'm doing so because I didn't have a meltdown of when my birthday was, what my career was, or anything like that. I had a meltdown because my identity is feminine. I am happy being a woman. My entire sense of self starts at being a girl. Not the frilly dresses or being a mother or anything like that. I love having sex with men as a woman. I love having a feminine body. Everything about being a woman. Transgender people don't feel unhappy because they want to wear the other genders clothing, that's just crossdressing and honestly clothes shouldn't have a gender. They feel unhappy in their own skin because their identity doesn't match their body. Uncovereddickhole is adding nothing constructive to this conversation by saying he wants to change his birthday or career. He lacks basic empathy and reasoning.

Uncovereddickwad is a perfect example of why only cam girls, whether born a girl or not, should be the only ones in the camgirl only section. This isn't my site, and I respect Amber. But this dude regurgitates shit and calls it a discussion. I truly hope any other male cammodels who may be joining us are nothing like this spammy troll.

 

[Gen]

They feel unhappy in their own skin because their identity doesn't match their body.

I'm really not trolling or trying to run in circles - I'm being genuine.

If this is the case, if it's just about the body, why is there a big push to say "genitals don't equal gender" and to remove all links between vaginas/breasts/periods/etc and ~womanhood~? Like the idea that those things define womanhood is said to be very transphobic - but if they don't, then why would having a body different than that make you feel dysphoric or like you "don't match"?

Also a lot of trans folks choose not to have surgery (for a variety of reasons beyond just cost and risk, though obv those are super common), so I wonder how that all factors in. Like everyone's different, for sure, but not everyone seems to hit the measure of body dysphoria (which has all been called transphobic), so then I'm curious if someone IS okay with their body but still identifies as trans, why that is/how that works.

Again, I'm not trying to troll or anything - I'm asking all of this in good faith in hopes someone can explain it to me because it's always confused me.

 

[CharlieCharma]

I'm really not trolling or trying to run in circles - I'm being genuine.

If this is the case, if it's just about the body, why is there a big push to say "genitals don't equal gender" and to remove all links between vaginas/breasts/periods/etc and ~womanhood~? Like the idea that those things define womanhood is said to be very transphobic - but if they don't, then why would having a body different than that make you feel dysphoric or like you "don't match"?

We say they don't define womanhood because there are people born with genitalia that they don't believe matches their identity. They're women or men even if they don't have the right body parts.

Also a lot of trans folks choose not to have surgery (for a variety of reasons beyond just cost and risk, though obv those are super common), so I wonder how that all factors in. Like everyone's different, for sure, but not everyone seems to hit the measure of body dysphoria (which has all been called transphobic), so then I'm curious if someone IS okay with their body but still identifies as trans, why that is/how that works.

A lot of transgender people I know who choose not to go through with surgery it's because of the cost and the chances of not being able to have an orgasm ever again. It's a complicated matter. I'm not transgender, so I won't have all the answers to that one. I know I have a friend who won't have the surgery because her parents will disown her, even though she lives every day as a woman. If you live life as a woman and have to face all the adversity we do, you're a woman. If you live life as a man and have to face all the adversity because of it, you're a man

Again, I'm not trying to troll or anything - I'm asking all of this in good faith in hopes someone can explain it to me because it's always confused me.

I'm not going to lie, it confuses me too at times. In the end, it's about being an accepting person. I might not understand how someone is feeling or why, but with something as fluid as gender and sexuality, I think the best thing is to just be supportive.

 

[Val Vega]

Uncovereddickwad is a perfect example of why only cam girls, whether born a girl or not, should be the only ones in the camgirl only section. This isn't my site, and I respect Amber. But this dude regurgitates shit and calls it a discussion. I truly hope any other male cammodels who may be joining us are nothing like this spammy troll.

I'd almost feel sorry for piling on, but the Uncovereddickwad, as you so eloquently put it, is completely deserving of it. You summed everything up so perfectly that even though you are not transgender, you nailed the experience superbly.

Uncovereddickwad: So for your information, being transgender is far more than clothes, behaviors, and so forth. Trans people experience overwhelming shame and repulsion of their natural bodies. Almost everything I do is (and I say this with an urgency you could scarcely imagine) with the goal of changing myself so I am no longer disgusted by what I see in the mirror. I moved to a different state and city, lost friends and family, sacrificed a career, became homeless, and had to turn to sex work all because of being transgender. I could have had a very comfortable life were it not for being transgender. I was a successful industrial electrician with a 4-year degree in Electromechanical Engineering Technology from a very poor area. Since transitioning, all the opportunities I had went away. I lost everything. Every day is a struggle where before I had boundless opportunities. Now I put myself through countless indignities all because I have to. I utterly despise sex work, but I do it because that's what is available to me because there's very little else out there for me now. I'm not even good or successful at it, but it is my life now. I do not enjoy getting fucked in the ass by men I have zero respect for. Hell, I don't even really sex. I don't like getting paid bread crumbs to parade myself around all to appease someone's fetish. I do everything I do because it gives me a glimmer of hope that one day I'll be the person I want to be.

I'm not saying this for pity or because I want people to feel sorry for me. I just want you to realize how damn idiotic your arguments are. Your fucking birthday or astrological sign doesn't cause you to want fling yourself into a damn train. You think you're being clever. You are so far off the mark with your comments and so utterly bigoted in your derisive remarks that there's scarce wonder that most of the people here find you just repulsive to be around. If keeping people like you out means keeping the forums closed, I totally support it because I do not think anyone should have to suffer your noxious presence.

 

[MFCGod]

there's very little else out there for me now.

When I was about 24 I was unemployed, no skills, no qualifications, no real prospects of being employed beyond minimum wage stacking shelves

I always kind of felt something would work out for me though, I knew I wasn't destined to be working 9-5 doing stuff I hated

My brother ended up offering me $100 a month to do bits and bobs for his companies website; I knew zero how to do anything at all, literally nothing, so I set about reading forums, online guides, pirating the software I needed like dreamweaver and photoshop

Working on his site gave me skills to make basic sites of my own and learn other ways people made money online

Now I'm 30 and make a solid living self-employed

Hopefully the right opportunity or idea will fall in your lap sooner rather than later and it can spark you into a career and lifestyle you will enjoy

 

[Deleted member 35180]

Thank god this finally went somewhere decent again @CharlieCharma thank you for your words. @JizzyJezebel thank you for your story. I wish you all the best and I'm so sorry you've had to live through all of that and that you continue to have to deal with people's ignorance.

 

[Violet Dawn]

If only things were perfect and we could include women like @JizzyJezebel but not people like Uncoveredmanhole into the model's only section. It's not because you're a dude, manhole, it's because you act disrespectful AF and very entitled.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

A while back I had a pretty bad acid trip. I didn't know who I was, if I was a boy or a girl, poor or rich, how old I was. Anything. I was absolutely panicked because I didn't want to be a boy. I was having a complete meltdown over this.

Now, drugs are drugs are drugs, and it seems a little strange bringing them up in this thread, but I'm doing so because I didn't have a meltdown of when my birthday was, what my career was, or anything like that. I had a meltdown because my identity is feminine.

that's some pretty amazing acid.
of course this doesn't prove that it's wrong or false for anyone else to have an important national identity, or racial identity, or parenthood identity, or star sign identity, or any other identity you didn't have a crisis over, it only says what you personally cling to.

I am happy being a woman. My entire sense of self starts at being a girl. Not the frilly dresses or being a mother or anything like that. I love having sex with men as a woman. I love having a feminine body. Everything about being a woman.

you can do any of that as a man with a female body. what about this necessarily has to do with being a woman?

Transgender people . . . feel unhappy in their own skin because their identity doesn't match their body.

so, you're equating gender and sex? a transgender person is a transsexual person? - saying you want another gender means saying you wish you had the opposite sex body?
Isn't this 'a woman is a female' exactly the synonym people have been trying to escape?

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

I'm really not trolling or trying to run in circles - I'm being genuine.

If this is the case, if it's just about the body, why is there a big push to say "genitals don't equal gender"

Again, I'm not trying to troll or anything - I'm asking all of this in good faith.

pointing out their incoherent contradictions = trolling, good faith or not.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Trans people experience overwhelming shame and repulsion of their natural bodies.
Almost everything I do is (and I say this with an urgency you could scarcely imagine) with the goal of changing myself so I am no longer disgusted by what I see in the mirror.

Anorexics and undiagnosed people often experience BDD, too. However, in their cases, society deems them sick and tries to change their mind which is generating the problem/incongruence, rather than helping them change their body. Why do you think maintaining a link in your mind between your gender and the body you think your gender _has to have_ is helpful for you and your happiness? It seems like it does more harm than good.

What aspect(s) is so critical about the body to gender identity that you cannot accept your body--i.e., that no female-born woman with their body like that should be able to live with herself happily, either?

I could have had a very comfortable life were it not for being transgender. I was a successful industrial electrician with a 4-year degree in Electromechanical Engineering Technology from a very poor area.

what changed?
(you continue with two words that suggest the answer, 'since transitioning', but that's not really informative, and I appreciate that you are willing to be informative.
What intrigues me is that you had a life you liked before 'transitioning'.--What did your transitioning consist of? What was necessary? As you say, it's not about frilly dresses n stuff. You could shave your head and have tattoos and wear baggy jeans if you wanted to transition, because those are all acceptable ways for women to express themselves as women. I'm pretty sure even electricians can get away with that (though their industry may require slightly more fitted pants and ensuring all tattoos are covered in the workplace).

I do everything I do because it gives me a glimmer of hope that one day I'll be the person I want to be.

be the person you want to be, or have the body you want to have? (again I hark back to other known body-identity issues). I'm sure Stephen Hawking will never have the body he'd want to have, but he can still be the person he wants to be, or at least accept his fate and still find happiness.

Your fucking birthday or astrological sign doesn't cause you to want fling yourself into a damn train. You think you're being clever. You are so far off the mark with your comments and so utterly bigoted in your derisive remarks that there's scarce wonder that most of the people here find you just repulsive to be around.

the degree to which you're dissatisfied is irrelevant to the basic philosophical issue of whether or not disidentity merits altering historical facts. (the level of dissatisfaction may be highly relevant to public policy priorities, but here we're only talking philosophical concepts, not political priorities).
appreciate you explaining yourself so I can clarify your misunderstandings.

You are so far off the mark with your comments and so utterly bigoted in your derisive remarks that there's scarce wonder that most of the people here find you just repulsive to be around.

it's ok, your ignorance doesn't hurt me. I don't choose to let your inability to be more reasonable and level-headed become a problem in my life. You can choose to be unhappy that everyone doesn't agree with you, but I'm not going to.
"Few people are able to appreciate a philosopher; he's almost a sort of public enemy. Faced by the various pretensions of mankind, …he says bluntly: “I'm prepared to take you only at your true value, what you're really worth.” It's not easy to get people to appreciate anyone who makes such an uncompromising declaration." - Chamfort

If keeping people like you out means keeping the forums closed, I totally support it because I do not think anyone should have to suffer your noxious presence.

I very much doubt MO is a place for abstract intellectual discussion.

 

[Finley]

Hey uncovereddickhole: <--- Emotional labor. You're asking for a lot of it right now with no intention of actually having a critical thought in your head or even desiring to learn. You have already been quite clear at how content you are in your ignorance, so why should people expel emotional labor on you? They shouldn't.

 

[ExcellaExe]

I have access to the DSM-V but I have no interest in sharing MY hard work, research, and expertise with someone who doesn't seem to want to actually learn. You can find the major classification, sub-types, and all that jazz either in an upper division psych course-which, by the way, if you have the DSM-V you had to take anyway-where they teach you how to actually address these issues in an ethical and culturally sensitive way that will not trigger further mental duress or, in this age of the internet GOOGLE IT.

*takes off Psych double major hat*

 

[Luckyfoxxy]

so why should people expel emotional labor on you?

Well, why shouldn't they, love? If anyone wants to, just like if anyone wants to tip you for taking off your trousers I think that's fair and their business. Am I doing 'emotional labour' right now? Please give it back. Is mine.
Also that page you posted is funny. Is that book of women whining about their husbands? I hope it's not used as a textbook.

 

[uncoveredmanhole]

Well, why shouldn't they, love? If anyone wants to, just like if anyone wants to tip you for taking off your trousers I think that's fair and their business. Am I doing 'emotional labour' right now? Please give it back. Is mine.
Also that page you posted is funny. Is that book of women whining about their husbands? I hope it's not used as a textbook.

naa, it looks to be a very dispassionate intellectual treatise.
"Getting the homecooked meal and the freedom from emotional labor is male privilege."

Apparently my penis is a dining card, now (transwomen should take advantage of this while they can, too! it's not just a men's privilege). and to think I never thought to whip it out for that. Never realized how much privilege I have. Thanks, e-book!

 

[Finley]

With every post you show just how deeply your ignorance runs

 

[JickyJuly]

Anorexics and undiagnosed people often experience BDD, too. However, in their cases, society deems them sick and tries to change their mind which is generating the problem/incongruence, rather than helping them change their body.

Past anorexic with BDD here. I can see how you made this assumption, but it's not completely true. A good doctor doesn't talk to you like your eating disorder is a sickness. They talk about it as a symptom of your anxiety and try to replace it with healthier coping mechanisms. And some people with BDD are successfully helped by body changes.

 

[ExcellaExe]

The treatment for gender dysphoria is literally changing the body once the psychiatrist and the patient have established that dysphoria is, indeed, what is happening and if the patient has expressed that is what they want to do (not a difficult diagnosis, but it'd be unethical to not do due diligence). One of the first lines of treatment is hormones! Stop. Just stop. .

 

[CharlieCharma]

of course this doesn't prove that it's wrong or false for anyone else to have an important national identity, or racial identity, or parenthood identity, or star sign identity, or any other identity you didn't have a crisis over, it only says what you personally cling to.

Oh, I get it now. You must be this dude.



In all seriousness, I can't even continue this conversation with you because you're a childish troll. You're like that kid in class who would try to argue with the teacher thinking they're so witty and smart, but just end up looking like a fool.

 

[AmberCutie]

Locked since it got so derailed. Thank you everyone for your constructive discussion and healthy debate (those of you who actually handle it maturely.)

I have a thread going in the current MO section asking for help for when the reorganization takes place, which I aim aiming to do next weekend. That means next weekend ACF could be down for many hours or a day or two.