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Dec 27, 2011
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So, there's been a lot of things that I've been reading and watching that really make me wonder WTF is wrong with our Western Society right now. It involves sexism, perceived sexism, and, honestly, how sexism seem to only be a one way street. That way being that sexism can only be practiced by men towards women, and not the other way around.

There's a few issues, and, honestly, they're quite startling when you look at how the media views them, as well as the general public.

The first is the issue of rape. We've all been taught that rape is when the woman doesn't consent to sexual intercourse and has the sex forcibly performed upon her; she's not in complete control of her mental faculties to consent (drunk, on drugs, passed out, etc.); or is physically assaulted or restrained against her will during intercourse. But, yet, we almost constantly hear that women are incapable of raping a man. However, by these same standards, is it really impossible for a man to be raped?

Now, while the forced sex part may be harder for a woman to perform on a man, as in he says no but she does it anyway (normal size and strength differences between men and women make it hard), it's not impossible. But, what if a man is not in complete control of his mental faculties (drunk, drugged, etc.) and a woman he doesn't want to have sex with has sex with him? Is that not rape? Here's a hint: to most people, it isn't... he probably wanted it anyway, or at least enjoyed it is the common thought. What if the man is physically restrained or assaulted? There's at least one case on the books about this, from the UK in 1978:

In 1978 in the UK, Joyce McKinney was sentenced to 12 months in prison for forcing a man to have sex with her while chained up.

On 19 September 1977 McKinney was arrested and charged, but vigorously denied the charges. While being taken to Epsom for a court appearance, she held a notice up at the window of the police vehicle saying, "Kirk left with me willingly!" Press reports and McKinney's lawyer refer to the substantial size differential between McKinney, described as slightly built, and Anderson, described as substantially larger.

Along with Keith May, her alleged co-conspirator, McKinney jumped bail and fled the country. On 18 July 1979, they were both arrested in the United States by the FBI on charges of making false statements in order to obtain passports. They both received suspended sentences.

No extradition proceedings were instituted by Britain, and the English court sentenced McKinney in her absence to a year in jail. Under the then-Sexual Offences Act 1956, due to the victim's gender, there was no crime of rape committed, though indecent assault of a man applied.

However, it should be noted that cases of male on male rape or female on male rape go very much unreported, mostly due to the stigma of appearing weak in the eyes of society for the males involved.

Then there's the other ways rape can be attributed, but only in the case of women accusing. According to some, if she 'gives in' to badgering and just decides to have sex with a man to shut him up, that's rape (we're talking about a couple here, not some random strangers). Some like to say it's OK to claim rape if the woman regrets consensual sex the night before. There have even been cases, recently, where a woman claimed rape simply because after having sex, the man didn't contact her in a time frame she deemed appropriate, and people defend her for it. As some like to call it, retracting consent after the fact still makes it rape.

Then there's the growing occurrence of false accusations of rape. This is something we're told is very, very rare, but the occurrence of false accusations is growing (over 4000 per year proven false in the US). Or, I should say, the fact that the accusation was false becoming known is growing. A few examples:

The well known Duke sports team false rape accusation. As well as English soccer players falsely accused of rape.

A PA man, aged 20, was charged with rape and served 5 months under house arrest awaiting trial because a former 18 year old girlfriend claimed he raped her in a parking lot, and only stopped when two girls came upon them. She had bruises on her neck, and told police he had his hand around her throat. However, she couldn't remember the names of the girls or their phone numbers when police asked... so the boy was arrested at his home. 5 months and $20k later in lawyers fees, the young man's family attorney found the two girls that supposedly stopped the rape, and they told him that she had been at her new boyfriend's house, and she was terrified to go home and face her parents' wrath because her new bf had given her 'sucker marks' (hickeys) on her neck. She got charged with making a false police report.

The last woman I was sexually active with works for a lawyer's office here in NJ. And one of the clients is a 16 year old black boy. He and a 16 year old white girl got caught in the stairwell of their school while she was giving him a blow job. She claimed he forced her to do it. He's been labeled a sex offender, cannot go to school (because it is close to children) and is fighting to stay out of jail. And the woman I was with told me flat out she knows the girl is lying, just to not get in trouble by her parents.

I forget the man and woman's names, and the exact state, but the man spent 5 years in jail after the girl accused him of rape after her parents caught her looking at porn online (you know, as to the reason a good girl would be watching such filth). She figured, at the time, nothing would happen, because he had moved away, but the police got him arrested in the other state, and he spent 5 years in jail until she finally said she made it up to not get in trouble.

Biurny Peguero accused a man of rape in NYC and he spent 4 years in jail until she recanted. This was AFTER new DNA testing done showed that the bite marks and bruises on her were from female DNA, and not male, obviously acquitting the man she accused and got convicted of raping her. Her reason? She wanted her friends to feel sorry for her. She got convicted of purgery and making a false police report and got 1-3 years... less than the amount of time the man she accused had already served.

WTF is wrong with our society where we are telling young women that it is OK to claim rape to get out of trouble? Or to get attention? Or because they regretted having sex with a guy? Or just to be vindictive for any slight, real or perceived? And then, we, as a society and as a matter of law, basically convict the accused before any evidence is brought forth. Guilty until proven innocent is how the law works in cases of rape accusations. And even if the accusation is proven false, or it is shown the woman was not actually raped, the man's life is ruined. Almost universally, however, the false accuser gets a slap on the wrist and a pat on the head saying 'it's OK, but don't do it in the future.'

The woman's identity is concealed by police and the media, but they plaster the accused all over the news. And if the accusation is proven false... it almost always ends up being buried in newspapers that the accusation was false, and the media in general seems to almost always conveniently forget to menton it. But, in the end, the man's life is ruined just for having the stigma of being accused of the crime.

And, to top it off, this actually makes it WORSE for the true sufferers of rape. The more and more false accusations come to light, men and women who have been truly raped will become more fearful of coming forward because of the more intense scrutiny placed on them and the fear of not being believed (though, as it has been shown, in most cases, men who come forward are generally not believed in the first place). This helps no one.

Though, this quote is a real gem...

Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

So, it's not the fault of the people falsely accusing... it's patriarchy's fault. I guess we can't disagree with such logic. :think:

Issues such as statutory rape are also clouded. If a man has sex with an underage girl, it is called rape in the media. If a woman has sex with an underage boy (a growing phenomena being reported, IE high school teachers and students), it is called an 'affair' by the media-- implying that the underage boy was able to consent. Statutory rape is statutory rape. Call it rape.

Then there's the issues of parenting rights and child support.

There are cases coming to light of men being forced to pay child support for children not biologically theirs.

A man in Houston, TX, is paying child support for 4 children to his ex-wife. Only 1 of which is biologically his. She cheated, multiple times, admitted the other 3 children are by 3 different men, but the state is making him pay the child support.

A man in GA spent a year in jail for not paying child support for a child the courts KNEW wasn't his.

A man and his ex-wife told the judge that the child up for child support wasn't his-- she got pregnant while they were separated and they did a DNA test. The ex-wife didn't want child suport from him for the child not his. The courts basically said 'fuck you both, he's paying.'

A man in TN payed child support for 16 years for a child not biologically his. In fact, the ex-wife moved in with the actual father of the child, so he was paying child support to a biologically complete family. This eventually prompted TN lawmakers to propose a bill making paternity tests mandatory before the father's name could be put on the birth certificate. This got a nice response from certain feminists out there, one of which wrote this:

It’s an adventure to live in a state in which so many of our legislators come from the perspective of assuming that all women are liars and all men are idiots and if the state doesn’t step in to protect said men, we’d just be out fuckity-fuck-fuck-fucking whosoever we could get our vaginas around and ruining their lives.

In her mind... what? Women can't cheat? Or can't lie about who the father of a child is? Men cheat. Women cheat. Men lie. Women lie. Deal with it, I say.

My own uncle can't step foot in the state of Illinois anymore, because of what his ex-wife did. They never went to court for child support for their son. My uncle moved to Singapore to work as a groundskeeper for a golf course there, and made good money. He sent $2000 a month to her for child support. When she knew he would be out of Singapore, she sent legal documents claiming he wasn't paying child support to his Singapore address. Then when he showed up to visit my cousin, she called the cops and claimed he was a deadbeat dad. She didn't know, though, that my grandparents had power of attorney, and had every single cancelled check. However, he still has a warrant out for him in Illinois for that charge and the failure to appear at court for the documents he didn't get until he returned to Singapore 2 months later. (Yes, he looks bad in this case because he fled the state, but his 2nd wife's visa wouldn't last throughout the trial and he probably would have lost his job.) Oh, and she had remarried a doctor, had a big house and drove around in a BMW for years before this happened. After getting the cancelled checks, though, they did drop the deadbeat dad charge and reduced his child support to $200 a month.

The child support issue is a case where the court system is at fault, though. The state makes money from court mandated child support, so it finds every way it can to keep that revenue coming in. This is a huge problem in and of itself.

However, it should be noted that in the rare cases where the fathers have custody and the mothers have to pay child support, the amount is lower, on average, even if the woman makes more than the man; and since there are very few deadbeat mom laws, they are not as vigorously gone after by police. Then again, in most cases, it would seem that the mother practically needs to be on death row for her not to get custody.

It's also known that if a mother with custody decides not to allow the father his visitations, as granted by the courts, there is practically no penalty handed out. They could fine her or even send her to jail for contempt of court; but the courts find both not good for the children, because she needs the money to provide for the kids and sending her to jail removes her from being able to provide for the children.

Oh, and here's a hoot: 15 year old boy sued for child support by 34 year old woman who statutorily raped him. http://law.justia.com/cases/california/ ... 0/842.html Another 15 year old boy was forced by the courts to pay his statuary rapist child support in Ohio, as well. :eek:

Then there's alimony. I saw a show about women paying alimony to their ex husbands, and how this was somehow an issue that needed to be looked at. One of the women said her husband used the 'I'm used to a certain lifestyle' argument to get alimony... The exact same argument we hear all the time from wives when divorcing husbands. Somehow, it's wrong to use the line if you're the soon to be ex husband.

Personally, I think alimony is outdated. Period. Unless one member of the marriage was a stay at home parent for 18+ years (depending on how many children they had), there's nothing stopping them from making their own living. This isn't the 1950s. Women aren't expected to be June Cleaver and be housewives while the man goes out and earns the money for the household. Now, if both agree that one parent will be a stay at home parent, fine, I can see alimony for a time... but not the lifelong alimony that often gets awarded. If neither parent is a stay at home parent, then the whole idea of alimony is archaic.

Domestic violence laws are also mind boggling. Violence against women gets the man thrown in jail. Violence against men... gets the man thrown in jail, or at least 'removed from the premises for X amount of time.' . Um. WTF? In many areas, any domestic violence claims automatically have the man thrown in jail or removed from the household, even if it was he who was the victim of it. Some laws state 'the larger party' is the one to be removed. In 99 out of 100 cases, this will be the man.

Also, it doesn't matter what the evidence shows. If a man has a knife sticking out of his back in an area he can't get to it, and throws or hits the woman away from him to stop the attack, he's at fault for touching her. If she's thrown everything at the house at him that isn't attached to the house, and he grabs her wrists and bruises her wrists, he goes to jail. How does this work?

Studies are now showing 40% of domestic violence is perpetrated by women against men. It still shows that men tend to do it more, yes, but it also shows women are not the innocent victims all the time.

Now, I was brought up to not hit women. Fine and dandy. It's not gentleman like. However, if a women decides to deck me, she better be damn well ready for me to punch her right back. It's not lady like to punch a man, so I don't have to be gentleman like back to her. If she wants to start punching, she better be able to step up to the plate and take it right back.

Is it chivalrous? No. Is it being a gentleman? No. But I'm not going to sit there and take a beating just because I'm not supposed to hit a woman.

OK, it's after 8 AM, and I think I am rambling, now...
 
epic post :thumbleft:

i will say.

why is america fighting in iraq?

why is north korea being a bitch and america not doing anything about it?

why arent palestinians allowed to live peacefully?

etc.
 
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UncleThursday said:
Now, I was brought up to not hit women. Fine and dandy. It's not gentleman like. However, if a women decides to deck me, she better be damn well ready for me to punch her right back. It's not lady like to punch a man, so I don't have to be gentleman like back to her. If she wants to start punching, she better be able to step up to the plate and take it right back.

Is it chivalrous? No. Is it being a gentleman? No. But I'm not going to sit there and take a beating just because I'm not supposed to hit a woman.

OK, it's after 8 AM, and I think I am rambling, now...
Cool write up fella. The quoted part I got to disagree with though. A female hitting a guy is nowhere near as dangerous as a dude hitting a woman. Not saying you should just take a beating but most women have no idea how to even throw a punch so I don't think the dangers are the same.

ESPN recently did a story about a guy that was in prison on false rape charges. The woman finally came forward and admitted to lying and he got a tryout with a NFL team. I can't even begin to imagine how awful it would be to be in prison and labeled a rapist for a crime I didn't commit.
 
Ok... Although I actually agree that all the stuff you're saying is really seriously bad... I'm trying to work out the point of this post... That some women do shitty things? Yes all this stuff is shitty, and of course some women do horrible, thoughtless things, but come on, it doesn't even come close to the kinds of things men do to women, and each other. This stuff is horrible, horrible as in makes my blood boil a bit reading it, but it's just nothing compared to the horrible things some men do. Even the rape part, if a woman can/does rape a man, unless she's torturing him at the same time or something, it'd be difficult for it to be nearly as brutal as what it usually is the other way around. And it's very rare in comparison. Not saying it isn't bad, just although yes, the bad things men do to women does come up a fair amount, but no one's writing a whole post on how evil men are...

The women accusing men of rape... Well, I live in England which means our law is innocent until proved guilty. It is almost impossible to get someone convicted of rape even if you have loads of evidence against them. Being accused of rape and getting sent down for it essentially means your life is over. You'll have a horrible time in prison, you'll be a sex offender, you'll lose your job, probably your family, your future once you get out is going to be very difficult... and it's ridiculously difficult to prove. Not only that, but as in the examples you pointed out, there are women who will cry rape when rape did not happen. I hate these women almost as much as I hate rapists. Basically most women who get raped do not come forward because they'll have a horrible time. People will be nasty to them, the court will be nasty to them, basically it's often more traumatic than the actual experience, and chances are they'll get nothing out of it.

The women with underage men in England it is considered rape just as much as if it were an older man with an underage girl.

As for the being nagged for sex until finally you get fed up and give in.... urgh, you cannot understand how horrible it is until it's happened to you. I've had this happen with probably over half the men I've slept with. Usually when I've ended up in a situation where I've been getting with them, have told them no sex is happening, but for some reason they've stayed at mine/I've stayed at theirs anyway, and they've done this horrible nagging/groping thing for so many hours that I'm exhausted, I need to sleep, and yeah, you go "fuck it, just do it." and give in. Have I ever felt raped by this? Mmmm no, it's not something personally I would consider rape (partly because I can disconnect from my body completely), but... I have had a dream for a long time of boys being educated in this from their early teens. It is not ok. 50 no's and one yes is NOT a yes. I have been upset after these things many times. It's always made me feel like shit. I cannot begin to imagine how a less sexual girl might feel.

I believe "rape" should not be one word. There should be other words. When you say the word rape, everyone goes "ahhhhh!!!! Nooo!!" they're imagining some kind of horrific, violent act, which is one form of rape. Unfortunately there are many ways someone can be forced into sex, and a large amount of men are very capable of some of the more "minor" ones, which actually aren't that minor if you've been the one being raped.
There should really be several different words for it, and several different types of punishments. No I don't believe someone who's nagged a girl into sex should be imprisoned or registered as a sex offender. Yes I do think they should get community service, be educated and get a stern talking to about consent.
I think those guys who take advantage of a girl they know and take them by force, often when they're drunk or feeling vulnerable, maybe not with violence, but definitely not with consent, should also have a separate sentence, perhaps something similar to the first one depending on how serious the act.

I would like to rip rapists penis's off, but... when it's come to me... I would love someone to be spoken to and punished for things they've done, but I'd never like them to suffer the life of someone sent down for rape. It'd be good if there could be a way that real rape victims wouldn't feel so awful coming forward. Where it could be kept quiet (if the case isn't really serious), or at least until they work out whether the case is serious and the person is going to be sent down.
I also think for those who are proved to be downright lying about being raped there should be a sentence similar to a rapists sentence. I don't mean when the person accused just doesn't get found guilty, I mean finding genuine proof that the person absolutely lied. It'd be nice to deter stupid women from this stuff. As well as to deter foolish men from it. Fact is, a large amount of men who rape, although knowing they've been forceful, don't realise they've done something that bad.

Also agree with PunkInDrublic (who knew I'd ever agree with so many of your posts?... but lately... :handgestures-salute: ), a man hitting a woman is NOT the same as a woman hitting a man. I am very strong for a female, in fact I'm stronger and bigger boned than a large amount of men, it's almost freakish really, I also have been doing kick boxing, boxing, judo and gymnastics since I was a child, meaning me hitting a man is going to hurt, I could probably hold my own in most fights, even so, I know that most men could physically beat the crap into me. Most men are still far stronger and bigger than me. My only advantage would be being flexible and having sharp nails. Compare me to other girls... I mean jesus, a lot of girls are so weak I feel like hugging them will break them. Most girls I ever arm wrestle them... well the idea of me hitting someone like that freaks the fuck out of me for the damage it'd do, let alone having a guy do it! Yes most girls could probably really hurt a guy, most men hitting/fighting back would destroy her and cause serious damage.
In situations like these, well, if the girl is using objects to hurt you, then try and restrain her, yes that might take some force. Hitting back? No. Not cool.
It is easy for women to feel very physically powerless. It's easy for us to believe men are strong beings who cannot be harmed by us. It's also easy to forget that men can hit back. If a woman is hitting a man, unless she's actually kind of mad, it may be something to do with feeling powerless. I do empathise with men on this one, it sounds like a pretty sucky situation to be in.
 
Not sure what the point is.

Society looks at things messed up because shit is messed up.

No offense, but I hear men say this all the time "If she hits first she's asking to get beat up!" Yeah. Sure. It's like men are waiting for random bitches to take a swing.

I've only ever hit a man that deserved it.

Thought provoking. :think:
 
anessa_lamb said:
Not sure what the point is.

Society looks at things messed up because shit is messed up.

No offense, but I hear men say this all the time "If she hits first she's asking to get beat up!" Yeah. Sure. It's like men are waiting for random bitches to take a swing.

I've only ever hit a man that deserved it.

Thought provoking. :think:

Largely playing devil's advocate here and not talking of your circumstances specifically but who gets to decide when someone "deserves" to be hit? What if a man decides that his girlfriend "deserves" to be hit? Is it then okay because she "deserved" it?

I would argue that the only time you ever truly "need" to hit someone is if you're being attacked and/or you're defending yourself :twocents-02cents:
 
mynameisbob84 said:
anessa_lamb said:
Not sure what the point is.

Society looks at things messed up because shit is messed up.

No offense, but I hear men say this all the time "If she hits first she's asking to get beat up!" Yeah. Sure. It's like men are waiting for random bitches to take a swing.

I've only ever hit a man that deserved it.

Thought provoking. :think:

Largely playing devil's advocate here and not talking of your circumstances specifically but who gets to decide when someone "deserves" to be hit? What if a man decides that his girlfriend "deserves" to be hit? Is it then okay because she "deserved" it?

I would argue that the only time you ever truly "need" to hit someone is if you're being attacked and/or you're defending yourself :twocents-02cents:
Or defending someone else, like coming upon a man beating up on your mom, girlfriend, buddy, etc.
 
mynameisbob84 said:
anessa_lamb said:
Not sure what the point is.

Society looks at things messed up because shit is messed up.

No offense, but I hear men say this all the time "If she hits first she's asking to get beat up!" Yeah. Sure. It's like men are waiting for random bitches to take a swing.

I've only ever hit a man that deserved it.

Thought provoking. :think:

Largely playing devil's advocate here and not talking of your circumstances specifically but who gets to decide when someone "deserves" to be hit? What if a man decides that his girlfriend "deserves" to be hit? Is it then okay because she "deserved" it?

I would argue that the only time you ever truly "need" to hit someone is if you're being attacked and/or you're defending yourself :twocents-02cents:

That was my point. Maybe I worded it poorly.

You worded it great.

If you are defending yourself, and you are in danger, yes! HIT BACK. I just tend to agree with several other girls who have posted with regard to women hitting men, and the danger level involved.
 
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PunkInDrublic said:
ESPN recently did a story about a guy that was in prison on false rape charges. The woman finally came forward and admitted to lying and he got a tryout with a NFL team.
Nice of them to give him an NFL trial to say sorry
 
Jupiter551 said:
PunkInDrublic said:
ESPN recently did a story about a guy that was in prison on false rape charges. The woman finally came forward and admitted to lying and he got a tryout with a NFL team.
Nice of them to give him an NFL trial to say sorry

The first person I thought of was Gary Dotson.
:(
 
Brad said:
I saw this on TV at age 9. I never forgot it. I guess it was a comedy but my 9 year old brain didn't find the humor in it. It actually freaked me out a bit.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071674/

fucking dark. That is one thing I feel sorry for men, I mean it happens rarely, but situations like this... yeah not cool!

Actually it's interesting, I absolutely hate having my arse grabbed by strangers. It happens all the time. I hate it. If I can catch who does it they will get a big punch in the face and wake up with a mouth full of blood. The bouncers in my town think it's hilarious... I just wish people would stop groping me. It's degrading, it's intimate where I haven't allowed them to be intimate. Jesus, I don't even like boyfriends doing that in public. Not cool.

Some men don't mind their arse's being grabbed, but I know plenty of men who really do. One of my friends boyfriends had the problem with another one of my friends who thought it was appropriate to grab his arse in all kinds of situations. Literally, sunday afternoon watching a showjumping competition, she'd walk over and grab his bum. He hated it. My best friend (whos boyfriend it was) also hated it. I always felt terrible for him because this girl had no concept that just because he's a guy, doesn't mean he appreciates sexual harassment.

Sexual harassment does happen to girls more than men, and many times when it happens to men they enjoy it, same as some girls enjoy guys grinding/rubbing their cocks against them in night clubs, fact is though, most don't. Especially as most of the time the people groping you are gross and are doing it to somehow degrade you (both men and women), rather than it being a come on/sexual thing. It's not cool to grab/grope another person without their permission whether they're male or female.

Even as a girl sometimes when I tell people they understand it, but often I'll get laughed at, as though it's not a remotely big deal. It is a big deal. I can only imagine how people would react if a man complained about that stuff.
 
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Brad said:
I saw this on TV at age 9. I never forgot it. I guess it was a comedy but my 9 year old brain didn't find the humor in it. It actually freaked me out a bit.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071674/

I haven't seen that but the "comedy" bit makes me think of Wedding Crashers. Has anyone actually WATCHED that movie? It's the most horrifying, rape-tastic movie ever. Not funny in the least. If you reversed the genders in the movie it would be on Lifetime.

Both Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn's characters are repeatedly assaulted, both sexually and physically. Owen Wilson is trapped in an older woman's room and she won't let him leave until he fondles her, even though he is very clearly uncomfortable and says "no" many, many times. Vince Vaughn gets tied to a bed and literally raped by Isla Fischer, all while begging her to stop, and then the same thing almost happens to him again...this time, from her brother. There are also other instances, like when she gives him a forcible handjob under the table at dinner despite his attempts to make her stop and when she sucks his dick while he's too injured to escape from her. "But it's funny, because she's smokin' hot and men LOVE sex and there's no way they could possibly NOT want it HAR HAR HAR" :naughty: I had to re-watch it when I wrote a report in my Sexuality class, and I was absolutely horrified. It wasn't funny, it was uncomfortable and downright frightening at times. But then at the end, Vince Vaughn marries Isla Fischer because she just really, really liked him that's all! And he decided he liked her rapey brand of freaky, obsessive 'love'!

Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with this part or not...? I just want to interject though and say it IS a product of patriarchy that men are subjected to this sort of treatment. A bit paradoxical, perhaps, but I still believe it to be true. That's the culture-- "men are strong, it's ok if women hit them because women aren't as strong and couldn't possibly hurt a REAL man!" "Men want sex all the time, even when they don't want it! Who would say no to sex with a willing lady who wants to take the initiative?" "Men are breadwinners, that's why they must pay-- because they are the ones who work and make the money."
 
Jupiter551 said:
PunkInDrublic said:
ESPN recently did a story about a guy that was in prison on false rape charges. The woman finally came forward and admitted to lying and he got a tryout with a NFL team.
Nice of them to give him an NFL trial to say sorry
Ha well he was falsely accused in his senior year when he was predicted to be a 1st round pick. Spent years in prison and when he got out a few teams were still interested. It wasn't as random as I initially made it out to be.
 
The first is the issue of rape. We've all been taught that rape is when the woman doesn't consent to sexual intercourse and has the sex forcibly performed upon her; she's not in complete control of her mental faculties to consent (drunk, on drugs, passed out, etc.); or is physically assaulted or restrained against her will during intercourse. But, yet, we almost constantly hear that women are incapable of raping a man. However, by these same standards, is it really impossible for a man to be raped?

I have a lot I'd like to say, but I'm typing on my phone - however I wanted to address this. I was taugh that rape is forcible intercourse, and that (statistically & factually) it most often is men raping women. Not that it is specifically always men raping women - there are women who rape men, as well as women who rape women and men who rape men.

Like Lily said, it is sexist attitudes that maintain the idea that men always want sex and could never turn down a woman, lest they'd be gay or whatever. Its like the reactions to a male student sleeping with a female teacher, vs a female student sleeping with a male teacher. Or, my personal favourite, that men are simply hardwired to be so uncontrollably lustful that seeing a woman's cleavage or whatever turns them into rapists. Not only is that a fucked up way to blame women for their own assaults, but such a gross way to paint men. Most men aren't rapists and it makes me so mad, the idea of acting like all men are just these drooling idiot rapemachines. But I do think that idea is borne out of sexism, as a way to dismiss rapists and turn it back onto women. As a woman and a feminist, that makes me mad, and if I were a man it'd make me mad too, because I think men are better than that - like men aren't just all potential rapists hanging out waiting to be triggered by a bikini, they're actual people, most of whom don't have the urge to rape.

...that was totally tangential but I just get so mad at the sexist (and, imo, patriarchal) ideas that harm all of us, especially male rape victims.
 
UncleThursday said:
Studies are now showing 40% of domestic violence is perpetrated by women against men. It still shows that men tend to do it more, yes, but it also shows women are not the innocent victims all the time.

Sorry to double post, I was just thinking about this and wanted to jump in again! I think these are important topics to discuss and think about.

In regards to the number of women abusing men versus men abusing women (which I have not seen that stat before, do you mind sharing where you got it?) - I don't think anyone is saying women are innocent victims. Domestic violence against men is, thankfully, getting more attention and its' deserved validity these days. I'm taking all my info from this page: http://dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/ which is the Domestic Violence Resource Centre. Of course, it's really hard to get statistics on things that nobody wants to talk about, and you have to consider how many people would not classify something like a single slap from their partner or something as domestic violence (I suspect this might particularly affect men).

This study seems to be only current up till 2001 (and presumably American), but it says Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%.
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)
. This is obviously quite a big difference, 15% to 40% - if your stat is more current I wonder what the change was.

Another thing that I think is important to look at is (from the same study): In 2000, 1,247 women were killed by an intimate partner. The same year, 440 men were killed by an intimate partner. Intimate partner homicides accounted for 30% of the murders of women and 5% percent of the murders of men. This doesn't specify the gender of the partner, so I'm not sure how many LGBTQ people were included in those statistics, but this does show that women are murdered by their partners at a drastically higher rate. That isn't to say that it doesn't happen the other way, or (of course) that it's irrelevant - but it shows that (with the possible exception of a high level of same-sex relationships in there), men are killing women far more often than women are killing men. Again - this doesn't negate the issue of domestic violence against men and it's not to say that it only matters if the victim is killed, just that while women may also be abusing men, men are more likely to kill women. I feel that doesn't leave us on an even playing field, or leave us in a situation where we can discuss domestic violence as if it is even both ways.

This page has a specific section addressing men, that states surveys find that men and women assault one another and strike the first blow at approximately equal rates. Also Men and women engage in overall comparable levels of abuse and control, such as diminishing the partner’s self-esteem, isolation and jealousy, using children and economic abuse; however, men engage in higher levels of sexual coercion and can more easily intimidate physically. That addresses a bit of your discussion of alimony and child support - it isn't just women using children or money to be abusive.

Some other relevant, and heartbreaking, stats.
Seventy-eight percent of stalking victims are women. Women are significantly more likely than men (60 percent and 30 percent, respectively) to be stalked by intimate partners.
Seventy-six percent of female homicide victims were stalked prior to their death.
On average, only 70% of nonfatal partner violence is reported to law enforcement. Of those not reporting, 41% of male and 27% of female victims (34% average) stated victimization being a private/personal matter as reason for not reporting, 15% of women feared reprisal, 12% of all victims wished to protect the offender, and 6% of all victims believed police would do nothing.


UncleThursday said:
Violence against women gets the man thrown in jail. Violence against men... gets the man thrown in jail, or at least 'removed from the premises for X amount of time.' . Um. WTF? In many areas, any domestic violence claims automatically have the man thrown in jail or removed from the household, even if it was he who was the victim of it. Some laws state 'the larger party' is the one to be removed. In 99 out of 100 cases, this will be the man.

Also, it doesn't matter what the evidence shows. If a man has a knife sticking out of his back in an area he can't get to it, and throws or hits the woman away from him to stop the attack, he's at fault for touching her. If she's thrown everything at the house at him that isn't attached to the house, and he grabs her wrists and bruises her wrists, he goes to jail. How does this work?

I'm also not familiar with these laws or cases. Do you have a link for these? I can't find info on the laws in my area, but as far as I know they have mandatory charges (meaning if you call the cops, they have to file a report, I believe) which can be harmful for both parties. I don't know much about the legal aspects.

Again I want to say - I am not at all trying to dismiss or minimize men who've been assaulted by their partners; I think it's really awful and I'm sad that we live in a world where men feel they have to stay silent about that (and, as a feminist, I like to think I'm working towards a world where they will be able to speak openly about it and receive the help they need). And I do believe in self-defence, to the point of stopping the person hurting you - if a man or woman attacks me, I will try to stop them. But I think these stats do help to show that there is still a gender imbalance in which more women than men are being abused (and, ultimately, killed). So I can understand the frustration if (in actuality and not in perception) men are being falsely arrested for DV, but I wonder what accommodations they could make to the law that would still protect victims.
 
trotskyleon said:
why is america fighting in iraq?

why is north korea being a bitch and america not doing anything about it?

why arent palestinians allowed to live peacefully?

etc.

OK, probably gonna piss some ppl off with this one but... Just couldn't help myself...

In answer to the first two questions:
why is america fighting in iraq?
Because there aren't any WMDs in Iraq...

why is north korea being a bitch and america not doing anything about it?
Because not only is there no question that North Korea has nukes, but they are letting it be known that they got one hell of an itchy trigger finger, and have been totally egging us on... would you wanna go fucking around and poking that hornets nest??? I don't think so.

As for the last question... I make it a point not to touch that subject with a ten foot pole publicly... It was almost career suicide last time I did.
 
UncleThursday said:
Cool write up fella. The quoted part I got to disagree with though. A female hitting a guy is nowhere near as dangerous as a dude hitting a woman. Not saying you should just take a beating but most women have no idea how to even throw a punch so I don't think the dangers are the same.

ESPN recently did a story about a guy that was in prison on false rape charges. The woman finally came forward and admitted to lying and he got a tryout with a NFL team. I can't even begin to imagine how awful it would be to be in prison and labeled a rapist for a crime I didn't commit.

Subtle sexist thoughts and comments are part of the problem and continue the stereotypes of men and women. We grow up hearing these things and they become part of the collective consciousness. Until we can break down our social conditioning of gender roles and biases, it will be a long time before true equality can happen.
 
Sexual violence is a very serious topic. Being falsely accused of sexual violence is a serious topic, but it's not the same topic. Non-sexual violence between people of different genders is also a serious topic, but it's not the same topic, either. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make. Is it that men are second-class citizens?
 
I just happened to watch Lisa Lings Our America last night, and the topic is very relevant to this conversation.

Travis Iosue, Sex Offender Appearing On 'Our America With Lisa Ling,' Tries To Restart Life
The Huffington Post | By Claire Gordon

Growing up in Texas, Travis Iosue never sat still. He would bark and howl and twitch. His eyes would roll back in his head. He once punched a wall over and over until he fractured a bone in his hand. His mother Diane sent him away to live in psychiatric hospitals for a few years, where the doctors treated him for severe obsessive compulsive disorder, Tourette's Syndrome, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Diane admits that her son, at age 17, probably had the maturity level of a 12-year-old.

But she couldn't believe what the police in Round Rock told her when they knocked on her door on September 1, 1995. At a neighbor's house the night before, Travis had asked a 10-year-old girl to sit on his lap, and then touched her on top of her shirt "for sexual gratification," according to police records.

"I'd Rather Be Dead"

Travis accepted a plea deal -- though he claims he's innocent -- which offered him five years probation instead of a lengthy prison sentence for indecency with a child. Within a month of cutting the deal, he violated his probation, which mandated that he couldn't hang out with minors, and was sentenced to 20 years behind bars.

He was released last December, having served 16. In the show, "Our America with Lisa Ling," Ling follows Travis during his first free days as an adult, which have proven to be filled with barriers. Finding housing and a job are nearly impossible for someone who's a registered sex offender.

Travis is just one of more than 720,000 Americans who have their name, birth date, address, and an up-to-date photograph publicly listed on the sex offender registry, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. In Texas alone, there are over 70,000.

Nicole Pittman, the Soros Senior Justice Advocacy Fellow at Human Rights Watch, has interviewed hundreds of registered sex offenders over the last couple years, and told The Huffington Post that the most common comment she hears is "I'd rather be dead." The second is "I'd probably have a better chance at a second chance if I'd murdered somebody."

"It's a true comment too," Pittman said.

Finding A Home And A Job

One of Travis' first challenges was finding a place to live. He wanted to move in with his mother, who for 16 years kept his childhood room perfectly preserved. But nearby, a school bus stops to pick up kids in the morning, and Travis, now 34, isn't allowed to go within 500 feet of places where children commonly gather. So Travis moved into a halfway house.

Travis was put on parole, with a GPS monitor strapped to his ankle, and only allowed outside for work, doctor's appointments, and essential shopping. All of Travis' movements -- even doing his laundry -- must be pre-approved and put on a schedule.

Finding a job is hard for any registered sex offender, especially someone like Travis, whose work experience is limited to two weeks at Taco Bell in 1994. Travis began spending four or five days a week at the Texas Employment Commission -- not the closest one, because there was a daycare there -- but one a couple extra bus rides away.

And while Travis' mental illnesses are no longer so severe, 16 years in Texas penitentiaries have created other health problems.

Inmates aren't kind to the child molesters in their midst, and Travis was a particularly vulnerable target. His nose was broken, and he can't breathe through it very well anymore. His front teeth were kicked out. His eye socket was broken, so he has a metal plate above his left eye to keep his eyeball in place. His right clavicle was broken, as was his right hand, and forearm, and shoulder. He thinks he suffers hearing loss, and memory loss too. His mother told HuffPost that she worries his heart beat is too rapid. He gets dizzy sometimes.

Innocent, Until Pleading Guilty

"Sometimes it's like chains around my knees and it hurts every time I walk," Travis told Lisa Ling about all his restrictions. "But I can't complain because it's better than prison. But I can complain because I shouldn't be here in the first place."

Travis still claims he never touched the girl. But after six months in jail awaiting trial he said was desperate to get out. His lawyer offered him a plea deal -- five years probation instead of prison time -- that sounded reasonable. Desperate to go home, 17 year-old Travis accepted against the urgings of his mother. His decision backfired, because he was in trouble again just weeks later.

He got busted for hanging out with two teens -- a violation of his probation -- even though he was underage himself.

In Pittman's survey of 200 registered sex offenders, 85.6 percent took a plea, and more than half said they weren't told that this meant a lifetime on the sex offender registry.

Diane thinks his court-appointed lawyer, Randy Lepley, was anxious to finish the case. She said he pressured her son into entering a plea, even though two kids at the scene of the alleged crime wrote signed affidavits saying they didn't see Travis do anything wrong. Lepley couldn't be reached for comment, and no longer practices law in Texas. He resigned his license in 2004, after the state Supreme Court found him guilty of professional misconduct.

It's impossible to know for sure what happened that day in 1995. Ling spoke briefly with the victim's mother, who said her daughter is still traumatized. The victim's father, however, said he believes his daughter may have grossly exaggerated what took place. He said she considered going to authorities a few years ago to change her story, but was worried she'd be arrested if she did.

Back In Prison

Travis could petition to get off the registry, but such attempts are rarely successful, according to researchers tracking sex crimes.

That's a costly option and Diane doesn't have the money to hire a lawyer. All of that will have to wait anyway, because Travis is back in prison.

He broke his parole twice in 24 hours in May. In the first violation, something triggered his ankle alarm in the middle of the night and his parole officer accused Travis of taking too long to respond to it. The following day, he broke the rules again, by having an unscheduled 20-minute birthday celebration with his family on the halfway house's grounds. He'll be serving 60 to 90 days.

"What normally happens is you get re-arrested," says Pittman, about newly released sex offenders. "In less than a few months, you're back in prison for a technical violation."

Diane is hopeful that her son will restart his life: get a job, maybe even a girlfriend. But she believes the system is stacked against her son. "I feel like these people are determined not to provide him with the tools to be successful," she says, "but to strip him and demean him so he can't be successful."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/travis-iosue-sex-offender-lisa-ling_n_1745010.html

You can watch the episode here...
 
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This really deserves its own thread, but...


trotskyleon said:
why is america fighting in iraq?
The USA made a mistake going in, but because the USA destabilized Iraq when it took out their entire government structure, the USA is now responsible for putting the pieces back together again.

trotskyleon said:
why is north korea being a bitch and america not doing anything about it?
China.

trotskyleon said:
why arent palestinians allowed to live peacefully?
Because bad things happened to Jews 70 years ago, and now Israelis are immune to any form of criticism lest someone be labeled an anti-Semite.
 
Yeah, there is more violence against women than there is men, but that doesn't mean that violence against men isn't equally bad.

Violence or rape against either gender is EQUALLY bad, just one happens more than the other does.

Also. Okay. I might offend a lot of people with this but here it goes.
I've had sex with people who definitely exploited me. I've been really drunk before, and a guy has come on strong and pressured me into sex when I never would have had sex with him otherwise. When he was sober, even. And if people are calling that rape, I think that is so incredibly stupid. I just shrug my shoulders and go 'okay, don't get drunk next time. Now you know better.' I view myself as inherently responsible for everything that happens to me short of physical assault.

Obviously rape is frequently violent and horrible, AND there are definitely grey areas when it comes to individual circumstances, but sometimes I get the impression that people are quick to call 'rape' if they're just drunk, if someone was aggressive, and they regret it the next morning. That kinda bugs me, and I think can put guys in a really shitty area if they're accused.

And yeah, accusations can ruin a guy's life. There are so many instances of men being falsely accused, and the accusations alone result in job loss, ostracization, and shaming. It might be a good idea to have fines or punishments in place in the case of a blatant accusation being proven definitely false. Women should not be allowed to do that to a man.
 
ok, here it goes. south is gunna ramble and make a long tangent with multiple pointless parentheticals again. dont say i didnt warn you :p


ok. the op was almost tl;dr. it took me three tries to get through it since i've been pilled to the gills the last few weeks. but i made it through, and through all of the following posts. i cant hit it up item by item or itll be even more insane than my posts usually are.

rape. rape bad. period.
lying. lying bad. most of the time. if lying about person and get them in trouble, always bad.

now that that is out of the way let me give my skewed perception. my entire life from about 4 til i was out of high school i was a victim of violence damn near ever day to some degree or another. some of it worse than others, but enough that i wake up screaming and trying to kill whoever is closest to me at the moment. despite that. despite having broken arms, bruised faces and nearly severing a hand once when people try to play pranks on me and surprise me. despite having a mean streak a mile wide.
despite all of that i have never consciously attacked anyone i claimed to love. i have never hit a kid. i have never hit an animal that wasnt attacking me. even when provoked beyond all sanity on purpose i have never hit anyone in my family either (and there were a few times some of them deserved it).
i have a powerful sex drive. i have control issues about some things. i enjoy dominance. and still i have never hated anyone enough to sexually assault them. (consent is sort of important to my sexual pleasure, if someone doesnt want me its a major turn off)

so, with all of that. with all of the anger, rage and instability of my temper, and some above average training in how to hurt people i tend to judge those that do so rather harshly. regardless of their sex/gender.
that is not to say that i would not fight a woman under the right circumstances. in the dojo i did more than once (and the first time this tiny little thing mopped the floor with my 300 lb self at that). to defend myself, my loved ones, or others that are under my protection i will go caveman on just about anyone.
i have one more rule that i make sure i let people know when they get aggresive with me or those under my protection. anyone ,man, woman, child who has the balls to step to a guy my size and take a swing will get my respect. i will respect them enough to assume they mean to kill or maim me and mine,and that they have the ability to do so. therefore i will not hesitate to return the favor preemptively.

but i will not start it. i have only once ever assaulted anyone, and that was in jr high. dumbassery is common at that age i guess. lords know i was surrounded by enough of it lol.

so yeah. here i am almost 39 years old and i have managed to contain my primal urges almost completely. (and i took a head injury that put scars on my frontal lobes, which severely reduces impulse control btw) if i can do it, i see no excuses for it in anyone else. as broken as i am in this balding head of mine i still maintain decency and honor.


i admit however that those primal urges are there. when someone does something rude or dangerous around me my very first thought is to beat the hell out of them. in the sexual side of things i very much enjoy (once it is agreed on) bondage and dominance and pain. i recognize the animal nature inside myself. i recognize that were i less human, less thinking, i possess the drives that could make a person a rapist a murderer or worse. (and yes, there is much worse, but im only going so dark here). i believe that most people have those same drives to some degree however minor it might be. it is by understanding these urges, controlling them, that we become more than hairless apes.


i think i rambled enough for the moment, though more is percolating in my dome. so with that..... good luck lol p.s. only 3 parentheticals! im doing much better!
 
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Aella said:
I've had sex with people who definitely exploited me. I've been really drunk before, and a guy has come on strong and pressured me into sex when I never would have had sex with him otherwise. When he was sober, even. And if people are calling that rape, I think that is so incredibly stupid. I just shrug my shoulders and go 'okay, don't get drunk next time. Now you know better.' I view myself as inherently responsible for everything that happens to me short of physical assault.

Obviously rape is frequently violent and horrible, AND there are definitely grey areas when it comes to individual circumstances, but sometimes I get the impression that people are quick to call 'rape' if they're just drunk, if someone was aggressive, and they regret it the next morning. That kinda bugs me, and I think can put guys in a really shitty area if they're accused.

I've been in these situations also, many times. Some have been more forceful than others, but generally I wouldn't put any of these under the "rape" category. This is why I think there should be a separate word for these kinds of situations. Because yes, in these situations I've been stupid. I've got myself into a situation, usually sharing a bed with a man I do not want to sleep with, that I am very vulnerable. Still though, does this mean the man is not also at fault? Not at all, girls being stupid and trusting does not equal consent.
This is why boys should be seriously educated in this matter from when they hit puberty. They need to understand that it is not black and white. Rape means having sex with someone who isn't consenting to it. Yet most people imagine it to be a horrible traumatising thing. Something that is so clearly not consenting (as in serious physical violence and physically forcing someone into it). It's not always the way.
Both men and women need to learn about these situations. For the most part these kind of things happen in younger people, simply because you're more likely to crash at someones house after drinking, or get yourself into these situations. These things don't have to happen though. I've shared beds with plenty of men and they've respected my wish to not be mauled while asleep/trying to sleep.

Like I said before in my previous post, I think there should be a whole range of punishments for sex offenders, especially for younger males, most of them education/community service based, and ones that don't get them on the sex offenders list, potentially ruining their lives, but will have some form of note in case they end up doing it again.

For those men who force/pressure women into sex just because they're horny and convince themselves that the girl is up for it/that they can make her up for it, for the most part I think it's a lack of education. It's not directly being told "this is not ok".
And for those girls who've got themselves into a stupid situation with a guy, probably kissing them alone and the guy has been forceful and has not listened to the girl telling him to stop... well, no one really believes it's rape, but what other word is she supposed to use? Rape is too strong a word. It's a very serious accusation. Rape victims get bullied if they come forward. Fair enough if they're totally lying and it's simply a case of someone being drunk and consenting while drunk (unless the person has been spiked or is so intoxicated that they can barely move/have passed out and the other person is sober/close to sober), then those people deserve to get grief from it. Problem is, it's hard to know which is which.

Men and women seriously need to be educated about all forms of rape from when they're young! Maybe it'd stop some of the confusion on definitions.
 
Isabella_deL said:
Aella said:
I've had sex with people who definitely exploited me. I've been really drunk before, and a guy has come on strong and pressured me into sex when I never would have had sex with him otherwise. When he was sober, even. And if people are calling that rape, I think that is so incredibly stupid. I just shrug my shoulders and go 'okay, don't get drunk next time. Now you know better.' I view myself as inherently responsible for everything that happens to me short of physical assault.

Obviously rape is frequently violent and horrible, AND there are definitely grey areas when it comes to individual circumstances, but sometimes I get the impression that people are quick to call 'rape' if they're just drunk, if someone was aggressive, and they regret it the next morning. That kinda bugs me, and I think can put guys in a really shitty area if they're accused.

I've been in these situations also, many times. Some have been more forceful than others, but generally I wouldn't put any of these under the "rape" category. This is why I think there should be a separate word for these kinds of situations. Because yes, in these situations I've been stupid. I've got myself into a situation, usually sharing a bed with a man I do not want to sleep with, that I am very vulnerable. Still though, does this mean the man is not also at fault? Not at all, girls being stupid and trusting does not equal consent.
This is why boys should be seriously educated in this matter from when they hit puberty. They need to understand that it is not black and white. Rape means having sex with someone who isn't consenting to it. Yet most people imagine it to be a horrible traumatising thing. Something that is so clearly not consenting (as in serious physical violence and physically forcing someone into it). It's not always the way.
Both men and women need to learn about these situations. For the most part these kind of things happen in younger people, simply because you're more likely to crash at someones house after drinking, or get yourself into these situations. These things don't have to happen though. I've shared beds with plenty of men and they've respected my wish to not be mauled while asleep/trying to sleep.

Like I said before in my previous post, I think there should be a whole range of punishments for sex offenders, especially for younger males, most of them education/community service based, and ones that don't get them on the sex offenders list, potentially ruining their lives, but will have some form of note in case they end up doing it again.

For those men who force/pressure women into sex just because they're horny and convince themselves that the girl is up for it/that they can make her up for it, for the most part I think it's a lack of education. It's not directly being told "this is not ok".
And for those girls who've got themselves into a stupid situation with a guy, probably kissing them alone and the guy has been forceful and has not listened to the girl telling him to stop... well, no one really believes it's rape, but what other word is she supposed to use? Rape is too strong a word. It's a very serious accusation. Rape victims get bullied if they come forward. Fair enough if they're totally lying and it's simply a case of someone being drunk and consenting while drunk (unless the person has been spiked or is so intoxicated that they can barely move/have passed out and the other person is sober/close to sober), then those people deserve to get grief from it. Problem is, it's hard to know which is which.

Men and women seriously need to be educated about all forms of rape from when they're young! Maybe it'd stop some of the confusion on definitions.

Maybe I'm being too technical, but I think a good way to try to describe this kind of thing is "taking advantage". Yes, rape is taking advantage of someone, but taking advantage is not always rape. It's like squares are rectangles but rectangles aren't squares, lol.

If a girl is drunk and seems like she can be influenced to do something she wouldn't usually do, some men will prey on this and try to push it that direction. So do women, though, anyone can be sexually pushy. I think taking advantage of someone is not right, and the degree of seriousness depends exactly on what happened. I put myself in a lot of crappy situations that led me to being taken advantage of, because I let myself get into that situation, when I was younger.

It comes from both sides. I think the only way to know how to judge a situation is by looking at it on it's own. It reminds me of the old argument about "is cheating cheating if they were drunk?" Most will agree it is still cheating. But if you've never done something totally out of character when drinking, how can you be sure?

A drunk guy may be more willing to pressure a drunk girl. What then? Idk. They raped each other. I'm joking, and it's not a good joke, but... I agree that there is SO much grey area. Probably, educating people is the best way, like ^Isa said, because what else is there??

Idk, sometimes it's like people need hardcore violence for it to be rape. I don't necessarily agree with that.
 
Isabella_deL said:
Even the rape part, if a woman can/does rape a man, unless she's torturing him at the same time or something, it'd be difficult for it to be nearly as brutal as what it usually is the other way around.

If we go by the thought that being raped is a feeling of powerlessness, then I would say male on male rape, female on female rape or female on male rape would be just as brutal as male on female rape in that regard. A loss of power over one's body and the right to do with it as they please.

As to physical brutality, it would depend on each case, as not all rapes are physically brutal, while all rapes are mentally brutal.

And it's very rare in comparison. Not saying it isn't bad, just although yes, the bad things men do to women does come up a fair amount, but no one's writing a whole post on how evil men are...

It's not about who's evil; as much as where has our society gone when things like this can happen?

Less than 1 in 10 male on male rapes are reported, and the majority of those reported come from prisons. So, extrapolating that, even fewer female on male rapes would be reported, simply because of how society treats those male victims.

Isabella_deL said:
The women accusing men of rape... Well, I live in England which means our law is innocent until proved guilty.

The same is supposed to be true in America. But the Court of Public Opinion is already tainted and has already convicted anyone accused of rape before any evidence is brought forth. What ever happened to those 2 male police officers falsely accused of rape in the UK a little while back? I do know their names and pictures were plastered all over the UK media before the accusation was deemed (or proven) false.

That's what taints the public. To be accused of rape, rightfully or wrongfully, is a public death sentence. If acquitted or the accuser is proven to be lying, the man still has to move to get away from the stigma of the mere accusation.

Isabella_deL said:
Basically most women who get raped do not come forward because they'll have a horrible time. People will be nasty to them, the court will be nasty to them, basically it's often more traumatic than the actual experience, and chances are they'll get nothing out of it.

I agree with this. But I will say it is the same for men or women who come out about it. As such, the vast majority of rapes probably don't get reported, from either gender being done to them by either gender.

Isabella_deL said:
The women with underage men in England it is considered rape just as much as if it were an older man with an underage girl.

It's still considered statutory rape in so far as charges, prosecution, sentencing and such... but the media doesn't say it like that. They say the women had an 'affair' with the young boy, or she 'seduced' him. This is in part due to the societal idea that has been bashed into everyone's skulls that 'women simply cannot commit rape' and that it is solely a 'male on female affair'.

Men can rape women. Men can rape men. Women can rape women. Women can rape men. It's not solely one gender can do it and the other cannot.

Isabella_deL said:
As for the being nagged for sex until finally you get fed up and give in.... urgh, you cannot understand how horrible it is until it's happened to you. I've had this happen with probably over half the men I've slept with. Usually when I've ended up in a situation where I've been getting with them, have told them no sex is happening, but for some reason they've stayed at mine/I've stayed at theirs anyway, and they've done this horrible nagging/groping thing for so many hours that I'm exhausted, I need to sleep, and yeah, you go "fuck it, just do it." and give in. Have I ever felt raped by this? Mmmm no, it's not something personally I would consider rape (partly because I can disconnect from my body completely), but... I have had a dream for a long time of boys being educated in this from their early teens. It is not ok. 50 no's and one yes is NOT a yes. I have been upset after these things many times. It's always made me feel like shit. I cannot begin to imagine how a less sexual girl might feel.

It's not something that has personally happened to me, no. But a girl from my HS class did this to her husband a few months back, and then told a ton of people about it after our 20th reunion. He came home from a long (12+ hour) day at his construction job, she was horny and wanted to fuck. He said no, he wanted to sleep. So she nagged and nagged and eventually just got on top of him, got him hard, and fucked him. Obviously the jokes went around... What kind of man isn't up for sex? Is he gay? Etc. All in front of him, from men and women.

So, whether she meant to or not, she emasculated him in front of other women and other men by telling this story. However, by the definition 'no means no' she did commit spousal rape. By the definition some like to say with the nagging, she committed rape. He probably didn't think too much of it at the time, though. But he was visibly upset the story was told, especially in such a joking manner in public.

Isabella_deL said:
Also agree with PunkInDrublic (who knew I'd ever agree with so many of your posts?... but lately... :handgestures-salute: ), a man hitting a woman is NOT the same as a woman hitting a man. I am very strong for a female, in fact I'm stronger and bigger boned than a large amount of men, it's almost freakish really, I also have been doing kick boxing, boxing, judo and gymnastics since I was a child, meaning me hitting a man is going to hurt, I could probably hold my own in most fights, even so, I know that most men could physically beat the crap into me. Most men are still far stronger and bigger than me. My only advantage would be being flexible and having sharp nails. Compare me to other girls... I mean jesus, a lot of girls are so weak I feel like hugging them will break them. Most girls I ever arm wrestle them... well the idea of me hitting someone like that freaks the fuck out of me for the damage it'd do, let alone having a guy do it! Yes most girls could probably really hurt a guy, most men hitting/fighting back would destroy her and cause serious damage.
In situations like these, well, if the girl is using objects to hurt you, then try and restrain her, yes that might take some force. Hitting back? No. Not cool.

This isn't to say I've yet been in a situation that would warrant it. Just that I am not going to sit there and take a beating from a girl, just because she is a girl.

The closest I've ever come is actually pretty recently. Maybe a year or so ago. My friend's gf is one of those punchy 'tough' girls... who also happens to be 5' tall and 90 lbs. Now, before this incident, it should be noted she did bloody a guy's face at a bar while fooling around a few weeks before, mostly, though, because she had a ring on. However, most people saw it as funny. So a few weeks later, we're sitting around, and she decides to get into her punchy routine and start punching me in the shoulder. Note that I have constant pain in both shoulders due to rotator cuff injuries in each arm, but I don't mind. She keeps it up for a few minutes, saying the usual 'you know I'd kick your ass, Sam' stuff. My normal response is, 'of course you would.' So then she gets up and starts doing the boxer dancing thing and actually starts throwing her weight into the punches. After a few minutes, I say 'that's enough' because my arm is now hurting from the mix of the normal pain and now her throwing her weight into it. Then she says 'you're getting beat up by a girl' and throws a punch at my face... which I grab before it hits me. I put just enough pressure on her wrist to let her know I could break her in half (I'm 6'2" and over double her weight), and say 'I said, that's enough.' That was all the negative reinforcement she needed to understand to a) not put her full weight into punches on me when she is joking around, and b) do not even jokingly throw a punch at my face. Now if she gets punchy with me, she keeps it light and never goes near my face. Life goes on, no one gets hurt, and we're all happy.

I think part of the problem is we don't give people enough negative reinforcement for bad behavior. To the point where we get those idiot dudes who are short and they get drunk and decide to pick a fight with the biggest guy in the bar (who most likely doesn't want anything to do with him). But, because they're drunk, the negative reinforcement of the big dude kicking their ass from here to next Sunday doesn't stick. Or to the point where we get those girls that literally start punching their boyfriends in the face, kicking them, etc. and screaming at them at the top of their lungs in public (seen it happen way too many times at bars). But, simply because she's a girl, the guy doesn't fight back to show he isn't going to take that sort of behavior from her, especially in public. Or the fact that she knows that if the guy dares raise one finger back at her, half the bar will come down on the guy and kick the shit out of him AND she can call the police... even though she started the violence.

Isabella_deL said:
It is easy for women to feel very physically powerless. It's easy for us to believe men are strong beings who cannot be harmed by us. It's also easy to forget that men can hit back. If a woman is hitting a man, unless she's actually kind of mad, it may be something to do with feeling powerless. I do empathise with men on this one, it sounds like a pretty sucky situation to be in.

Another part of it might be instigation, though. Many men and women are instigators. They know how to push certain people's buttons to get a negative reaction out of them. Some people actually feed on this negative reaction. They need it. I'm sure there's some personality disorder that talks about it. A guy I used to know and his gf at the time used to instigate the shit out of each other, often in public. They'd cheat on each other and throw it in the other's face. They'd start ragging on each others sexual ability. Etc. All in public. And they fed off it like a drug.

It's part of why we so often hear about the same people being involved in shitty abusive relationships over and over again. Something is broken in them, either from upbringing or whatever, where they constantly put themselves in these relationships. They quite literally, seek them out. Relationships with people who treat them well last a very short amount of time, while the abusive ones can go on for years. It's mind boggling to me why anyone would actively want to be in these types of situations. Maybe they like beng a victim.

LilyEvans said:
I haven't seen that but the "comedy" bit makes me think of Wedding Crashers. Has anyone actually WATCHED that movie? It's the most horrifying, rape-tastic movie ever. Not funny in the least. If you reversed the genders in the movie it would be on Lifetime.

Both Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn's characters are repeatedly assaulted, both sexually and physically. Owen Wilson is trapped in an older woman's room and she won't let him leave until he fondles her, even though he is very clearly uncomfortable and says "no" many, many times. Vince Vaughn gets tied to a bed and literally raped by Isla Fischer, all while begging her to stop, and then the same thing almost happens to him again...this time, from her brother. There are also other instances, like when she gives him a forcible handjob under the table at dinner despite his attempts to make her stop and when she sucks his dick while he's too injured to escape from her. "But it's funny, because she's smokin' hot and men LOVE sex and there's no way they could possibly NOT want it HAR HAR HAR" :naughty: I had to re-watch it when I wrote a report in my Sexuality class, and I was absolutely horrified. It wasn't funny, it was uncomfortable and downright frightening at times. But then at the end, Vince Vaughn marries Isla Fischer because she just really, really liked him that's all! And he decided he liked her rapey brand of freaky, obsessive 'love'!

Never actually sat through the movie. But this brings up a good point. Sexual assaults against men in any form are often seen as humorous. Even a scene in Oz that was leading up to a male on male rape inserted dialogue meant to be funny. But, as you said, if the roles were reversed (women in the male actor's parts and men in the female actor's parts), it would not have been funny; it would have been degrading, dangerous, and something that would be shown as being not the right thing to do.

LilyEvans said:
I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with this part or not...? I just want to interject though and say it IS a product of patriarchy that men are subjected to this sort of treatment. A bit paradoxical, perhaps, but I still believe it to be true. That's the culture-- "men are strong, it's ok if women hit them because women aren't as strong and couldn't possibly hurt a REAL man!" "Men want sex all the time, even when they don't want it! Who would say no to sex with a willing lady who wants to take the initiative?" "Men are breadwinners, that's why they must pay-- because they are the ones who work and make the money."

I'm not a fan of the way certain feminists like to throw the word patriarchy around, however. Its used as a catch all 'big bad' that can explain away all the world's problems. In that regard, it's like The Illuminati or the Reptilians. It becomes rhetoric to rally other feminists that feel the same way behind them. It's never how certain men have done things to wrong a particular woman, or all women, but how all men (the patriarchy) have wronged a woman or all women.

I don't like rhetoric. It breeds zealous attitudes. It breeds distrust and hatred towards anyone who doesn't follow the same ideology. It's why I don't like organized religion... too much rhetoric.

genxoxo said:
Like Lily said, it is sexist attitudes that maintain the idea that men always want sex and could never turn down a woman, lest they'd be gay or whatever. Its like the reactions to a male student sleeping with a female teacher, vs a female student sleeping with a male teacher.

Slight tangent: 2 female teachers at my old HS were caught having sex with 18 year old male students while on the senior trip a few years back. They are no longer allowed on the senior trip. Now, if this was reversed, and it was male teachers with 18 year old female students, well, they'd have been fired.

genxoxo said:
Or, my personal favourite, that men are simply hardwired to be so uncontrollably lustful that seeing a woman's cleavage or whatever turns them into rapists. Not only is that a fucked up way to blame women for their own assaults, but such a gross way to paint men. Most men aren't rapists and it makes me so mad, the idea of acting like all men are just these drooling idiot rapemachines. But I do think that idea is borne out of sexism, as a way to dismiss rapists and turn it back onto women. As a woman and a feminist, that makes me mad, and if I were a man it'd make me mad too, because I think men are better than that - like men aren't just all potential rapists hanging out waiting to be triggered by a bikini, they're actual people, most of whom don't have the urge to rape.

Correct that most men aren't rapists. It is a very small minority of men who are rapists; much like it is a small minority of men who are serial killers. Which, at the same time, makes it kind of hard to believe some statistics that state that 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted/raped in their lives. Go to any public place and count 6 women. Then say to yourself that 1 of them will be or already has been sexually assaulted and/or raped. Then count 6 more, then 6 more, etc. It will seem to be a very largely disproportionate amount of potential or already victims of sexual assault/rape in just a small area. Depending on the area and time of day, you could count hundreds in a very short time and in a very small area.

Then again, I'm not always a huge fan of statistics, because often times, the way in which they come about them can be skewed in many ways to achieve a desired goal; or, more often rely on very small testing groups to then extrapolate a much larger number. Like the joke says, 84.2949843637465% of statistics are made up on the spot. Not all statistics are bad, mind you. Some use large enough groups to get a fairly accurate degree of probability. But there are many times when a statistic is spouted out, especially by governments, where the actual testing group is so small, that extrapolating it out to cover a much larger group becomes statistically inaccurate. Then there's also the criteria used to come to the result. Vague or ambiguous questions on a survey, for example, can be taken in a multitude of ways, but are most often used to skew a statistical probability in the direction the report makers want it to go.

So, saying 1 in 6 women are going to be or have already been the victims of some form of sexual assault might also mean that 1 in 6 men are potential rapists or other forms of sexual assailants. That makes for, again, a disproportionate number of men in a small area, as well. While it still fits with the 'most aren't' line of thought, it would still feel a fairly large percentage of the population.

As a hypothetical: If we could take a snapshot of people walking down Broadway in NYC on a nice day that could accurately count the amount of men and women in the picture and used the 1 in 6 for both potential victim/been a victim as well as potential rapist/assailant/already been a rapist/assailant... you would literally have thousands of people on each side of that statistic walking down one single street in America. And, to me, that seems disproportionately large.

genxoxo said:
In regards to the number of women abusing men versus men abusing women (which I have not seen that stat before, do you mind sharing where you got it?) - I don't think anyone is saying women are innocent victims.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domes ... stics.html
Approximately 1.3 million women and 835,000 men are physically assaulted by an intimate partner annually in the United States.

Assuming this is a somewhat accurate figure, the percentage becomes 39.11007% of DV is done against men. However, I think you are correct that the studies might not differentiate between same sex couples and different sex couples. So, it could be male on male mixed with female on male for this, while the other 60.88993% of violence done against women could also account for a mix of female on female and male on female violence. There, obviously, could also be overlap, as in cases where police found both parties assaulting each other.

genxoxo said:
(Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003). This is obviously quite a big difference, 15% to 40% - if your stat is more current I wonder what the change was.

As with all statistics, it could just be different methods of information gathering. One study says X, another study on the same subject says Y. It can depend on a lot of circumstances. That study covers 8 years, while the study I have covers a single year. So, it is possible that over 8 years it was only statistically 15%, which looking at individual years might yield different results. I could have a report that shows company X made 2% increase in sales over 10 years, while individual years might show higher or lower percentages, for example.

genxoxo said:
This page has a specific section addressing men, that states surveys find that men and women assault one another and strike the first blow at approximately equal rates. Also Men and women engage in overall comparable levels of abuse and control, such as diminishing the partner’s self-esteem, isolation and jealousy, using children and economic abuse; however, men engage in higher levels of sexual coercion and can more easily intimidate physically. That addresses a bit of your discussion of alimony and child support - it isn't just women using children or money to be abusive.

My issue with child support, itself, is in how the courts seem to decide parenthood (as in actual biology is a non-issue if the courts deem it so) and if someone pays child support for children not their own as a way to make money for the state.

Also, there's the issue of child support bringing back Debtor's Prison... wherein if one can't pay the child support owed, they are thrown in jail, and every set number of days brought back to the court to see if they can pay. If they can't (hey, they've been locked up in jail... how can they make any money?), then right back into jail they go.

Alimony, as I said, is archaic, unless one of the parents literally gave up all their ability to make income for however long it took for all their children to become of the age of majority.

genxoxo said:
I'm also not familiar with these laws or cases. Do you have a link for these? I can't find info on the laws in my area, but as far as I know they have mandatory charges (meaning if you call the cops, they have to file a report, I believe) which can be harmful for both parties. I don't know much about the legal aspects.

Turns out, they aren't actual laws, but individual police training programs. http://www.saveservices.org/dvlp/policy ... v-assault/

Training programs for law enforcement personnel often emphasize the need to “err on the side of caution,” “hold abusers accountable,” and “give first priority to protecting victims,” admonitions that in practice mean, “Always believe the accuser” (2).

Training programs often use biased terminology, e.g., use the word “victim” instead of “accuser,” and omit the word “alleged” before “abuser” (2).

Predominant aggressor policies serve to predispose law enforcement personnel to assume the instigator is the male (3).

In one state, law enforcement officers are instructed to view a man’s statement that “She hit me first” as an “excuse” (4).

The last one screams redneck areas to me, but... notice the third one. The training basically says to assume the man is the aggressor, period. It won't always be the case.

For those areas that end up using 'the bigger party' thing... interesting thought. I know a girl who is 6'4" 185 lbs. She is also an amateur pro wrestler. With her strength training and knowledge of wrestling moves, she could probably kick my ass six ways from Sunday. But if she and I lived together and something happened and she did decide to practically destroy me and the cops showed up. I'm still the larger party, even though she is 2" taller than me. I weigh more than she does and, overall, have more body mass.

Sevrin said:
Sexual violence is a very serious topic. Being falsely accused of sexual violence is a serious topic, but it's not the same topic. Non-sexual violence between people of different genders is also a serious topic, but it's not the same topic, either. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make. Is it that men are second-class citizens?

If I wanted to say men were second class citizens, I'd spout of MRA nonsense like: I have to register to be drafted? Why don't women? Equal rights means equal responsibility!

Lil, that is a crazy piece. It also shows how the states will try to push for a plea that gets people registered as sex offenders. This, again, probably has to do with money. Perhaps there's something about how many people are registered allows for money to be spent on task forces and such.

PunkInDrublic said:
How is it sexist? I didn't say that women couldn't learn to punch or couldn't be good at it just stating simple facts that most women never care enough to learn how to throw a punch.

I'd venture to say that a lot of men never really take the time to learn how to throw punches, either. We just happen to normally have a lot of body mass to put behind them.

bawksy said:
The Wedding Crashers analysis is the most eye-opening thing I've read in a long time. Well done. It's amazing how our society is programmed to be blind to rape against men, or at least, to find it funny.

Like I said, we've had it told to us, for a long time, that rape is a one way street. That only one sex can do it, the other cannot. The same, basically, is said about any form of sexual assault...

There's also things that have been done that jokes end up getting made about. Lorena Bobbit and her cutting off her husband's penis has had a multitude of jokes made about it, despite the fact that is genital mutilation. A few years back another woman cut off her husband's penis and then put it in the garbage disposal (because he filed for divorce)... and the show that used to be on that had Sharon Osbourne on it had them all laughing and giggling. One of the hosts even mentioned that if it was a man who cut off a woman's breasts, though, no one would be laughing... but the laughing continued. Even a few days later when they issued an 'apology' for appearing insensitive about the issue, Sharon was practically cracking up.

Sexual assault against males is somehow a laughing matter. And that's not a good thing to be teaching anyone. Just as it's not a good thing to be teaching anyone that sexual assaults against females is a laughing matter. But, very few people would laugh about a sexual assault against a female; while many more will openly laugh about a sexual assault against a male. And this is socially acceptable, right now.
 
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