Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online friend

[MyNameIsJD]

I apologize for this novel. I am seeking practical advice, so please bear with me.

I'm going to do this as a list:

• 
  * I've known her for approximately 3 years.
  * I've been a regular of hers for just over 2 years.
  * As with some other online model-friends, I have liked her since I first met her.
  * I am 100% certain she considers me as a friend. (She has told me as much and has behaved as one. For privacy reasons I will not elaborate on this point.)
  * I am far and away NOT one of her biggest spenders.
  * My "crush" (for lack of a better term) began a couple months ago and I wrote it off as "just a phase." My feelings have only grown stronger, significantly so, since then.
  * She is not doing anything to encourage these feelings. She's not leading me on.
  * I am 99.99% certain she only views me as an online friend, prefers to keep it that way and would be very uncomfortable to know that I'm developing these feelings.
  * I truly value her friendship and want to keep her in my life in some capacity.
  * I want pragmatic advice on how to proceed.
  * I want others to be polite in the discussion that will follow. In other words. NO TROLLING. NO NAME CALLING. NO RUDENESS. (This subject seems to inspire such things in other similar threads.)

So what am I after for responses?
I'm looking for insight into the following:

• 
  * I'm just puzzled as fuck as to WHY NOW? :? (Thoughts? Ideas? something more than "we're only human" ... please)
  * How do I (or would you) handle this gracefully? (I mean without weirding her out, without putting myself through emotional purgatory, and without cutting the ties. This is a tall order; I know. "Just get over it." is what I've tried the past two months. It's not working.)

END NOTES:

• 
  * I've had plenty of model-crushes before. Usually it's a week of "OMG. She is so [list of adjectives goes here]!" Another week of "Wow, if only I could meet a woman like her in real life." Then a matter of "Yeah, she's cool. I like having her as a friend on this site."
  * I've been manipulated/led on in the past. This bears none of the hallmarks of those experiences.
  * If you believe you know the site and my real user name there, based on how I write: Don't bring this up with me there, unless you a) have practical advice and b) respect my privacy AND HERS (i.e. do not ask who she is, nor try to guess.)
  * If you are her and you have figured out who I am. I apologize for asking this here. I'm just trying to figure this out.

 

[ThePrincessLuxy]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

I wish I had the answer to this. The truth is, I don't. I just wanted to give you a really really big hug because sometimes these things happen (believe me! It goes both ways occasionally,) and it's a sticky one because most of the time, to be blunt, it is an S.O.L. situation.

However, I have heard of certain stories working out, and it all started with something like this.

My best advice? It would probably be to say fuck it, what do you have to lose? Go ahead and tell her. You never know.
I can say from my previous experiences my one best friend from cam, whom I consider a REAL friend, has spilled the beans and it's not a secret he is in love with me. And it hasn't ruined our friendship at all. If anything I think it has made it stronger.

I hope you find some real guidance here and once again, many hugs to you.

 

[DeezNA]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

First, I would like to applaud you for having the bravery to post about this publicly. In an industry that revolves around attraction, both sexual and platonic, it is incredibly easy to fall for models you spend great amounts of time with and it happens a LOT. I am just as guilty of this as you are and it's nothing to be ashamed of; what you do with these feelings is what matters.

Solid segue, cool, on to "what do we do about this?". Well here's how I look at things. Society has engraved very defined lines between a "friendship" and a "relationship" leaving little to no room for shades of grey. The cam industry, whether you are a nude model or not, is oozing with sexuality, making any sort of friendship take on that connotation of intimacy. You spend enough time around one person you find attractive in this environment and you start being incredibly comfortable with it, same with personalities, and they start to become a big staple in your life. This is sorta what we are taught, as a society and in my opinion, a relationship feels like. This would be why it sneaks up on you, hits you out of seemingly nowhere, confuses you, etc.

What is actually happening (if I interpret correctly and am not completely off base, if I am just throw a shoe at me or something) is a combination of a projected desire to be in a relationship and a built up confusion of what kind of relationship you actually have with this woman. You can absolutely have a very, very personal relationship with a model with absolutely no commitment or sexual interaction just as much as you can have an exclusively sexual relationship with a model with no "let's get to know each other". (all digitally, of course)

My suggestion is to just enjoy things how they are, not stress too much over the "what if's" and "labels" and let your relationship (whatever form it may be) exist and evolve as it will. If you are both enjoying yourselves there is really no harm being done, I would just communicate how you feel if it's starting to hurt you and be completely frank with her. Communication is the key to any form of relationship, be it client-host, friend-friend, etc. Just don't limit your romantic options in the "real world" (I hate that term...) on the behalf of an admittedly .01% chance, and don't throw out the chance of an amazing friendship due to romance potentially not being an option.

That's my :twocents-02cents:

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Luxy and Deez,
Thanks for both of your replies. They were very thoughtful and well reasoned.

My main concern with letting her know is making the friendship we now enjoy an awkward experience.
But yeah I've got a good bit to think about.

Thanks again!

 

[KylieJacobs]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Maybe just ask her straight out if she would ever consider dating someone that she met on the site!

I would say don't get your hopes up too much, there's unfortunately a good possibility that she will say no. (Not because of you, but because of her job). At the same time, there are models who have met their significant other on cam sites.

Good luck!

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Kylie thanks for your reply.

It's a good idea. Although I believe I already know the answer:

When the subject has been so much as alluded to in her room, she has been very clear on the matter.

The answer is no, she would never date anyone she met through camming.

I'm not so hopeful as to think that answer will ever change. I just don't want to lose her as a friend, weird her out...etc. And I don't want to keep feeling conflicted over these deeper feelings I have versus the reality of the situation.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

So, you know for certain nothing will come of it... but you don't want to lose her friendship? You just want to put it somewhere other than on your shoulders, with no real purpose?

That sounds kind of selfish to me, primarily if you know it will do nothing more that bring her unwanted stress... that she has as you've said done a very good job of keeping away by being honest and open about her thoughts on that sort of thing.

We as humans can not always control our emotions, but we can control what we do with them and how we let them affect others. it sounds like you are looking for a pressure release valve but possibly at the cost of spraying steam all over someone else who has been asserting firmly that she would really not like that to happen.

My advice if you want to keep your friendship and still visit her on cam is to just step away, keep your mouth zipped and focus on other things for a while. Get some good non-cam hobby time in and make it a personal goal to ground yourself.

it seems very unfair to try and unload this weight onto her shoulders, based on the things you said above.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Maybe spend time with some other models if you can't just walk away.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Maybe spend time with some other models if you can't just walk away.

Quoting to second this too!

 

[ACFFAN69]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

A couple of questions first, which would I think help us understand the situation better. You obviously don't need to answer these if you don't feel comfortable.

1) Do you talk to her outside of the site you watch her on frequently and privately in a one to one fashion, without paying for extra time (not counting on twitter of course). For example skype, or on the phone?
2) Has she devolved personal information about herself that a model very sparingly if ever gives up, for example her name?
3) You say you are not her high tipper, do you not tip her enough to impact her life if she lost you as a tipper? Sorry for the confusing double negative, but a yes answer here means losing you as a tipper will not impact her life.

If the answer to 1 is no, then I would drop the idea no matter what. The power in the relationship lays entirely in her hands (beyond you as a customer being able to choose to be there), you would know if she no longer sees you as a customer and instead sees you entirely as a friend (or more) because she would actively want to spend time with you beyond her job. It would not feel like work to talk to you.

If the answer to 2 and 3 are no, I would definitely drop the idea. If she considered you more then a friend, she would be at least willing to trust you with the kind of information she would trust average people in her life with.

If the answer to all 3 is yes, then I would most likely still consider not telling her. If she had feelings for you beyond friendship, I think you wouldn't have any question about making a move and wouldn't be asking this forum for advice. She knows you enjoy her time enough to spend so much of it with her, and that you find her attractive, because you never would have entered her room in the first place if you didn't.

Here is the positive at least, if she rejects you one of two things will happen:
1) It will make the friendship awkward and you will lose her as a friend. Anyone that ends a friendship with you because you were being honest wasn't worth it as a friend in the first place, and losing her will just free up more time to meet other people that you would have otherwise spent with her. If you feel awkward and decide to drop her as a friend, then you subconsciously feel she is not worth keeping as a friend anyways, so again no loss.
or
2) She will understand where you are coming from, shrug it off, and your friendship will be stronger through honesty, rather then you pretending to not have feelings and lying to her while you are around her.

I know relationships can and have occurred between models and members, but it is one in a trillion. I think in your heart you know how she feels about you, and if you know she doesn't want more then friendship then it would be somewhat selfish to put that load on her shoulders, and force her to hurt someone she cares about. I think if you do know that it won't work out between you two, the best thing you can do is take some time off the site for awhile. Time will fix things. It's not like you haven't felt this way before for another girl, and will for another after her.

Keep in mind, I have only been on cam sites for a fraction of the time you have been, so my opinion is that of inexperience.
Honestly no matter what we say I think won't matter in the end, you know if you should bring it up to her or not. Good luck and positive vibes to you no matter what happens.

I apologize if this post is a mess, it is 2:30am on a work night and I haven't slept yet, but I saw your post and couldn't help but give my two cents and wish you luck.

 

[Alexandra Cole]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Crushes are pretty mysterious. I've experienced that myself, the delayed impact. And I wonder if it's just a matter of timing. Maybe there was something else happening in your life up until then that kept you distracted, or maybe it just took you that long to get to know her well enough for the attraction to click.

In terms of going forward, I fall into the "just tell her" camp, especially given that you've known one another for a pretty long time. And I think that can be done without weirding her out if you approach it honestly, without pressure or expectation.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Hi Jolene,
Thanks for trying to help.

So, you know for certain nothing will come of it... but you don't want to lose her friendship? You just want to put it somewhere other than on your shoulders, with no real purpose?

No. In fact I did not say that. Hence, my coming here.

Thanks.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Hi Everyone,
I appreciate people taking time out to try to help. I didn't expect so many replies so soon.

Points of clarification

• 
  * I do not believe she will end the friendship if she knows how I feel. As implied in the original post, I believe telling her will make the friendship awkward. I do not want to make the friendship awkward. By logical extension I don't want to burden her with it. With that said the consensus so far seems to be "tell her."
  * I already visit plenty of models and have struck up online friendships with multiple models. (Apparently this wasn't as clearly stated as I had imagined)
  * Please, ensure your wording reflects your actual intent in the message you post. This is critical if you want me to understand what you mean. I tend to read things very literally with serious subjects.
  * I do find hypothetical circumstances used in an illustrative manner useful in understanding points being made. If doing this, please make it clear that this is what's being done. (Just trying to head off potential miscommunication here)
  * If you ask a question in your reply, please wait for me to reply before replying to what you presume the answer to be. Regardless if your assumed answer is right or wrong it's invalidating to not be given an opportunity to engage in an actual conversation (both parties contributing). On the receiving end this may cause me to tune out and either ignore your reply, or misunderstand your point.
  * If it isn't stated in my posts, don't "reframe" my posts to include it. See the following point for the risk you run if you do this.
  * "Name calling" is just one (and the most common) form of "leveling accusations." You will alienate me and I will ignore the rest of what you said. If this doesn't matter to you, then please revisit your motives for posting a reply on this thread. Are you actually trying to help me? Or is it more like venting a personal frustration? If it's more the latter, please open your own thread to explore that subject. If the former, rephrase your advice to be nonjudgmental before posting.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

...In terms of going forward, I fall into the "just tell her" camp, especially given that you've known one another for a pretty long time. And I think that can be done without weirding her out if you approach it honestly, without pressure or expectation.

Hi Alexandra,
Thanks so much for your reply.
Much of my hesitation here comes from (granted now distant) past offline attempts in this vain resulting in friendships getting awkward for several months after admitting it to my crush. I'm in my late 30s to early 40s and feeling as awkward as a teenager again. This is part of my confusion.

 

[BarbieLuv]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Okay, I'm in the camp of thought that you need to approach her with no expectations and tell her how you feel. But be aware of the scenarios that could play out, and how they will affect your existing friendship.


Best case scenario: No, this isn't 'model admits she has a crush on you too, you date for a while, then live happily ever after'. That's a fairy tale that doesn't often happen... and especially not when she's already made it clear that all she wants from her camfriends is just that, friendship. Models that have strong boundaries about romantic relationships with members aren't going to be swayed by a random confession (and rightly so!)

So you tell her, she tells you that's 'sweet' but she doesn't feel the same/never wants you to bring it up again, but that you're still welcome in her room, and things go on amiably as they have been for years.

Middle-of-the-road scenario: You admit that you have feelings beyond friendship, she makes it very clear that she does not; this makes things awkward between you, and you no longer feel welcome in the room. This may be permanent or temporary, that just depends on how both you and the model react to your confession/her rejection.

Worst case scenario: You tell her, she makes it VERY clear that she finds this creepy/unacceptable/that she's not interested, insta-bans/ignores you and blocks you on all platforms, and that's the end of that for everyone involved.


I also feel the need to throw in my viewpoint on this, which is essentially that members getting crushes or 'falling in love' with models is pretty silly. While camgirls do bring their personality to camming, and definitely are 'real' when on-cam... that does NOT mean that you know them. You know exactly as much about a model as she chooses to show/tell you. Camgirls sell a fantasy, and men like to imagine themselves as part of the fantasy - in fact, I'd say that it's required of a camgirl to be able to create an atmosphere/fantasy that makes the viewer feel as if they are part of it. We create an illusion of intimacy for those in our room, whether it's emotional or physical. That does not under any stretch of the imagination mean that she (or any other model) actually wants to be romantically involved with members (and based on what you've said about her, she keeps very strict boundaries, and you pretty much know that she won't be reciprocating your feelings.) Do camgirls end up with regulars sometimes? Yep. But that's a very small percentage, and I don't think you're going to be one of the 'lucky' ones.

tl;dr - Tell her you have a crush, but don't be surprised at all to find out it's not mutual/is going absolutely nowhere/that she doesn't want you around anymore. :twocents-02cents:

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

I have a theory when it comes to people a dating/meeting someone. People have these subconscious versions of traffic lights. When you're in a relationship you tend to be steady red, but sometimes you flick to amber or green for various reasons (usually because of personal life issues or issues in the relationship). A lot of single people tend to stick around amber, flicking occasionally to red and green, interested in other people but not really opening up completely. Sometimes you then become ready and almost instantly you meet someone you like and start falling for them. You might have known this person for ages but it just hits you. I've experienced this while I've been single and in relationships. Sometimes it just "hits you".

That would be the reason why you've started having these feelings now. For whatever reason your body and subconscious is telling you that you're ready to meet someone and as you're frequenting camsites rather than meeting a nice girl in real life who could have mutual feelings you've started attaching yourself to a camgirl.

The only real advice I can think of for you is to take a break from camsites. You don't need to leave them forever but right now you're wanting something more than just watching sexy girls have fun online whether you realise it or not. I'm sure this camgirl is amazing but that's not why you're crushing on her like this. This is purely your own mentality. It's actually a really good headspace to be in, you're just not in the right place for it.

Personally I would just tell her that you feel like you're in a frame of mind at the moment where you'd like to meet some women in real life so you're going to give camsites up for a bit. If the camgirl cares about you she'll be sad to let you go but will be happy that you are taking that step. Don't make a massive deal of it, just let her know and quietly slip away. Even if you don't meet any women in real life chances are if you return to your camgirl friend in a month or two you will be in a different frame of mind.

At the moment from your posts it doesn't sound like you have many other options. She's given you no reason to believe she wants anything more, and as she's a camgirl even if she had given you the impression she might like you chances are nothing more would happen. I'm sure she won't run away screaming if you told her how you feel, most camgirls are aware that this does happen, but like you said it might make things a bit awkward. There aren't many ways to get over someone who you won't ever be with and the only one I know is by taking time away from them. Whether you choose to tell her or not exactly how you feel is your decision, and it's not really that relevant. You're going to end up in the same situation which is not being with her.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

These points seem to be getting missed quite a lot and in various forms. So I apologize for the very large font.

• 
  * Please read my prior posts for content. Please only answer the questions I've actually asked using the information I've given. To be VERY VERY clear about this. I am not trying to date her. Advice geared toward that or its ills/challenges...etc is off topic. Please stay on topic.
  * Please keep any other speculation and judgement out of it. In other words ask yourself the following about each point you're trying to make/opinion stated:
  • 
    * How does that help me in my current situation? If it doesn't, it doesn't belong in this thread.
    * Is it strictly a "I don't understand how..." opinion? If so, it's of no help here and devalues the rest of your advice.
    * Is it a "That's very [insert pejorative here] of you to want [insert opinion based statement here]?" If so I view it as a troll. It's judgmental, assumptive and unproductive.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[BarbieLuv]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

This is an open forum; anyone can post whatever they want at any time. Even if you don't *think* advice applies to you, the internet equivalent of covering your ears and shouting 'LA-LA-LA-LA' (i.e. your posts regarding what people should/shouldn't post about in this thread) is even less constructive than those 'off-topic' posts that you're pointing to and saying, essentially, that the person saying it is wrong/doesn't know what they're talking about. Maybe try actually reading all of the posts, regardless of whether you agree with them or not/think they apply to you, and accept that the people posting them are actually trying to help, instead of yelling at everyone? Because right now, you're really just coming across as an asswaffle (and not adding anything constructive to your own 'I need advice' thread...) More flies with honey, and all that.

Just sayin'. :whistle:

 

[Jillybean]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Solid segue, cool, on to "what do we do about this?".

I really have nothing on-topic to say. I'm just so fucking thrilled to have finally learned how to spell "segue!" I had been butchering it so badly that spell check always had no clue wtf I meant! Thanks, Deez!

EDIT: OMG, LOL!! I didn't even read far enough to see the OP hated OT remarks. :lol: OH WELL, YOLO, ROFL.

 

[AerynShade]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

I don't know what you want from us! These amazing people are answering your questions with very minimal off-topicness, but you refuse to listen to them. AND I'M NOT SURE WHY WE'RE YELLING.

 

[Fay_Galore]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Now I feel bad for all the people who wrote beautiful well throughout replies. I APPRECIATE YOU!!

my two cents in this matter: you're possibly overthinking this a tiny bit. I'm a big believer of 'living from the heart' if this is bothering you so much that you go all tyrant on a bunch of strangers, claiming your own little place on a forum with your own little set of rules... then yeah, I think you might benefit from letting go a bit, eh? Go have a nice cup of tea, or go kickboxing, running, watch a tearjerking and let it all go! then, collect your balls and owe up to your feelings. I wish more people would.

I'm also trying hard not to post the loud noises gif. we're all adult here

 

[Pikachai]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

... I skipped many of the other responses cause it looks like some disagreement and will only give my two cents on what I initially thought when I read the OP:

I would either

A) Not tell her anything. Just keep it in your own little lala land and enjoy the lovely lady and your relationship as is! Nothing has to change about the happy friendship that you have right now. Sometimes I sit around and think about my fellow cam girls and sometimes even my members and my heart swells with intense love for them and my immediate reaction is that "I need to tell him/her!" but those more intense moments pass and I carry on.

or

B) Tell her, but the same way you've told us. "Hey, I might be developing some feelings for you right now. I will do my best to keep them in check, but I don't expect anything to come from it." I am the kind of person who would rather know, even if I'm not interested. If you don't want it to be awkward, then don't let it. That's on your shoulders, friend! Models have this happen very often but if you are a regular, and one who she enjoys, It's very likely she will hold up her side to try her very best to keep it from being awkward!

Fun Story: My fiance told me when we were only friends that had feelings for me. We carried on as usual without letting it get awkward because we both really cared about the friendship. I promise, when you are real friends, it's easy to eliminate any weirdness as long as both parties are respectful of the other. And what do you know, years later, and we are getting married.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Just a quick note to the OP which is technically off topic but to answer to your responses in larger font... This is a forum. We do not know your exact situation and what's going on exactly in your mind from a few bullet points you type. When someone comes to a forum like this with such vague questions we can only go with a universal answer. This is a public forum, any answers we give can also help similar people in similar situations.

You asked two questions- Why now? and how to handle it gracefully. Most people have answered this. I explained why you might be feeling this way suddenly after so long and you completely brushed it off and wrote your giant letter post instead. Maybe answers aren't what you're looking for or maybe you don't feel they apply to you, but you're kind of just being rude when people have taken time out of their days to try and help you.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Isabel,
I did not take issue with anything you posted. There were others who were far off topic and judgmental.

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

... I skipped many of the other responses cause it looks like some disagreement and will only give my two cents on what I initially thought when I read the OP:

Thanks for your insight. It's greatly appreciated!

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

...
my two cents in this matter: you're possibly overthinking this a tiny bit. I'm a big believer of 'living from the heart' if this is bothering you so much that you go all tyrant on a bunch of strangers, claiming your own little place on a forum with your own little set of rules... then yeah, I think you might benefit from letting go a bit, eh? Go have a nice cup of tea, or go kickboxing, running, watch a tearjerking and let it all go! then, collect your balls and owe up to your feelings. I wish more people would.

I'm also trying hard not to post the loud noises gif. we're all adult here

Judgments amid advice. I appreciate the advice portion. The judgments make me question your motives. This ultimately devalues the advice portion. This is the nature of communicating in a judgmental fashion. This is not unique to forums. I'm sorry if your feelings get hurt over being told that, but it is true of almost all people you will encounter under almost all circumstances.

 

[BarbieLuv]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

Dude, you're derailing your own thread and insulting people left and right; you literally just told Faye that you were going to completely disregard her great advice because she had the nerve to thank the people who were trying to help you! How in the world do you think that is in any way okay behavior?!

I really feel sorry for your model friend/crush, JD. Since she hasn't banned you, it would seem that you don't show this side of your personality in her room... but I'm afraid if she rejects you/doesn't reciprocate your feelings, you have the potential to get really nasty towards her (as you have shown you are capable of in this thread.) Your behavior throws up so many red flags in my head it's ridiculous. :?

 

[AllieYess]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

So many instructions to answer this post... is this a test? I'd think it takes you longer to think about how we should answer your post than to think about what people are telling you... but that might be just me :lol:

 

[MyNameIsJD]

Re: Advice needed - Getting the feels for cam-girl/online fr

The rules I laid out are:
"1. Here's the scenario."

"2. Here are my two questions. Please stay on topic."

"3. Don't be judgmental, rude, or troll."


A significant number of people have been able to do this and have offered cogent advice, not all of which I will be taking, but I have thanked everyone who has abided by it. If this isn't something you feel comfortable doing, remember you are not obligated to comment. If you still choose to comment, evaluate your motives. Are they to satisfy some selfish part of you that has taken offense to the situation I'm in and/or the way I would like to receive feedback? If yes, please move along. Otherwise, be polite and stay on topic.