Chaturbate closes account before paying $2000

[Cyber_Jay]

Hi,

I'm seeking advice from any one here who has been in or resolved a similar situation.

I set up a Chaturbate account back in March to enable payments from several performers to be combined and paid together. I added my Payoneer card and age verified the account just for ID confirmation, it has never been used to broadcast. I gave the "studio account" sign up link to my cam-friends to allow them to sign up as performers, just as it is designed for.

This worked as expected with performers having their tokens being cashed out automatically to the main account and payment made to me via Payoneer every 2 weeks.

Then on 14 July one of the performers accounts was banned (reason unknown). But because the performers share a computer, when the other models logged in two other performer's accounts were also auto-banned by Chaturbate.

Despite several emails to Chaturbate I never got more than an automated reply regarding the banned accounts.

I checked the payment I was due for the period on the 15th and it was over $2000. This main account was not banned.

I usually get the payment via Payoneer 2-4 days after the end of the payment period, and well you guessed it - payment did not come through. I then tried to access the 'main account' and saw it had also been banned.

I waited until the 22nd before contacting Chaturbate again (just in case the payment was later than usual) and was told it was being forwarded to the corresponding department and to wait 48 hours for a reply.

I gave them 4 days before sending a follow up email (earlier today) but have had no response.

Any advice from anyone would be appreciated...

Thanks
Jay

 

[Teagan]

The most you can do is contact support or shirley at shirley@chaturbate.com and repeatedly post to their twitter demanding answers. CB is very ban happy and does this constantly to people most times with no reply. Im not sure if the way you set up a "studio" is allowed on the site or not or if the one account that was banned meant others from that IP would be too but all you can do with them is constantly try to get answers from them. If you're lucky you may one day get one.
@punker barbie (shirley) occasionally pops on the forum as well so there you go with a tag for her here.

 

[Cyber_Jay]

Hi Teagan,

Yes, I have become aware *very quickly* of how ban-happy CB can be.

I don't see any problem with the 'studio account' side of things. CB's own support pages state "Creating a studio at Chaturbate is simple. Provide the following link for any broadcasters that wish to perform in your studio..." followed by an example url. Which is exactly what I did.

I am sure shared computers and IPs are part of the problem - lack of communication from Chaturbate just isn't helping.

However the problem is now the lack of payment rather than the closed accounts. The performers were happy to move on to other sites as soon as the problems started.

Regardless of IP addresses etc. the money from the sub-accounts is cashed out instantly (it doesn't even show up as tokens you can manually cash out). So as far as I am concerned that money is due to be paid from that point.

I will give support 24 hours from my follow up email before trying again with Shirley - maybe I'm being too nice I don't even use Twitter lol perhaps it is time for an account...

Thanks for your response - I really appreciate it.

 

[Cyber_Jay]

I thought I would give an update on this (nothing worse than forum threads that stop dead...)

I have just had a brief reply from Shirley (thanks to the advice given above).

Apparently Chaturbate have evidence of fraudulent activity and cannot help(!) No further information was given. I have asked if I can be put in contact with someone who can assist further.

This is so frustrating, if there has been any fraudulent activity I am a victim of it (over $2000 worth) and not the cause. I can only hope that I am given an opportunity to resolve this.

Why should the hard work of the performers suffer without proper investigation? These sites should not punish the people who earn them their money. This is just so unfair

Jay

 

[VeronicaChaos]

Really one of these days we just need to pick one of the new annoying camsites and just replace cb with them.

 

[sweetiebatman]

Theres far too many stories like this and i'll never give any of my hard earned money to the site where theres a danger of this happening to anyone. Very crummy way to act towards the people making money for your site

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Did Chaturbate say who the evidence of fraudulent activity was against? The performers? Or the tippers?

 

[fandango]

Thats why I never spend a penny on CB. Too many stories like this. They seem either really shady or amateur I cant decide which, or maybe its both.

 

[DeezNA]

When you have multiple accounts frequently logging in from one IP address you will pretty much always have eyes on you for potential fraud - especially when money is constantly changing hands. Many of us have personally dealt with fraud issues that were prevented by IP bans, that's kinda why we have them and they are understandable, it's unfortunate that you have to deal with the less-desirable side of them.

While you should typically be told why your accounts are suspended, Chaturbate's contract is pretty rigid and airtight. They can suspend any accounts for any reason (or no reason) at any time with no warning - yeah, we agreed to that. Also agreed upon in the contract is the fun little clause where you absolved any legal right or title to "virtual money" (meaning tokens here), so that $2000+ technically doesn't belong to you or the models until it is cashed out. Fucked up, right?

So, since you're legally pretty fucked here, you're likely going to have to appeal to them on a human level. Contact Shirley directly - explain everything regarding the "ban-infection" in detail, emphasize that you used the integrated studio system and that you are a studio representative/owner, explain the reasoning for the failure to transfer, express a desire for more information on the "fraud accusations"; do not question their judgement, but rather look for reasons on why all the bans happened and try to seek solutions. Try to find a way to work together.

Either that or you can try to find a loophole in that the cash was actually converted but they refused to pay-out, at which point it is no longer "virtual money" that they are withholding (totally legal) but a cash transfer that they are refusing (totally not legal). I'm no lawyer, but that's your best bet on the money front unless you get someone working for Chaturbate to understand your situation, as far as I can see.


Feel free to keep us posted on what's going on with the situation and we'll help out however we can.
Best of luck.

 

[Cyber_Jay]

Thanks for all the kind messages - this is a great forum

Did Chaturbate say who the evidence of fraudulent activity was against? The performers? Or the tippers?

No, Shirley just said they 'have evidence of fraudulent activity' nothing more.

When you have multiple accounts frequently logging in from one IP address you will pretty much always have eyes on you for potential fraud

Yes I believe it is the shared IP that is the root of this problem. I work in IT and understand IP bans can be a useful PART of a fraud prevention strategy - but it shouldn't be the ONLY method employed, and in case of dispute questions should always be asked.

As I mentioned I did ask Shirley for further information or to be put in contact with someone who can assist further, I hope to get a reply.

Ever since the problem started I have done nothing but send polite emails asking for information and offering to answer questions, waiting days to allow them to answer - but I am afraid replies are few and far between from Chaturbate. I am more than happy to work together to resolve this situation.

Either that or you can try to find a loophole in that the cash was actually converted but they refused to pay-out, at which point it is no longer "virtual money"

This is what I find hardest to understand. None of the studio model accounts can spend tokens, all their tokens are automatically cashed out at midnight to the studio main account (no longer as tokens) and appears in the main account transactions. So at what point is it no longer virtual currency? I would say from that midnight since it can no longer be used on Chaturbate. If it is no longer virtual currency (tokens) it must be real currency?

There was even $65 of hourly contest wins which is never in the form of tokens.

It is even more frustrating since all the money was earned before any accounts were banned. If it had happened 2 days later payment would have been sent.

I will just have to persevere and hope I can get someone at Chaturbate to assist.

Thanks again,
Jay

 

[Teagan]

I wish you the best in finding answers but I sadly doubt you ever will. Or that you'll ever see that money. They can claim fraud payments to one of the girls (or charge backs on it) and with several accounts on one IP mixing they just ban them all and wash their hands of it. Taking the money claiming it was by fraudulent means and there is nothing you can do. I think if they really cared about fraud and such they would get to the bottom of things but CB more and more just blocks people and walks away. Sadly it has been their biggest down fall as a cam site. They just dont care though cause people still work there. They don't get the second someone builds a similar site without bans CB will fall to pieces.

 

[NerdieBirdie]

Thats why I never spend a penny on CB. Too many stories like this. They seem either really shady or amateur I cant decide which, or maybe its both.

I had used chaturbate to tip out performers that I watch on there and did the $20/month "supporter" status. I have personally gone through the process to stop this auto payment because I no longer wished to subscribe to the supporter status service, and yet twice now in the last 6 months the charged has shown up on my bank account and popped back up on Chaturbate despite me going through the process of cancelling it. Super sketch.

 

[DeezNA]

Yeah, Jay, I would keep at it and stay patient, no matter how frustrating it gets. Shirley is as high up the ladder as you're going to get, so try to remain calm and work the situation you have; it's far from ideal but you can't really expect a camsite to have a call-center for support assistance. I, personally, think a larger/more communicative support staff would benefit the site greatly... but they make the site, we just work there. =/

This is what I find hardest to understand. None of the studio model accounts can spend tokens, all their tokens are automatically cashed out at midnight to the studio main account (no longer as tokens) and appears in the main account transactions. So at what point is it no longer virtual currency? I would say from that midnight since it can no longer be used on Chaturbate. If it is no longer virtual currency (tokens) it must be real currency?

From my understanding (and do note again that I don't work for a studio), tokens are bought by the clients (money --> Virtual Money), clients tip the models (Virtual Money), models pay-dump at midnight to your studio Chaturbate account (still Virtual Money) and your account cashes out at the end of the pay period (Virtual Money --> real money). From what I can see, only when the tokens are actively "converted to cash" would your Virtual Money become real money and belong to you; this process deducting the tokens from your account balance and giving you a receipt on the site which can be used as empirical proof that the site owes you money. If your studio account is suspended and you can't access it from a different location, I would request they send you a transcript of your studio account's transaction history which you should have full access to according to Term 29 of the ToS "You may obtain access to your billing records upon your reasonable request." Not the most... eloquently or gently worded quote I have ever posted, but they didn't really define "reasonable request" either so... Note - This may not even apply here since billing history and transaction history may be different, I'm just trying to find you an "in", Chaturbate's contracts are nothing short of aggressive; I'm legitimately surprised they don't reserve the right to at least two of your internal organs.

I'm assuming here that your studio account is automated as well; that you don't manually cash out your account's tokens? If this is the case, it would very likely do that automatically at the end of pay period (to cover CB's ass in situations like this), so they probably put a hold on the transfer once the ban incurred, explaining why you never got paid. Your transaction history on that account should show any authorized transfer of tokens, if the tokens were deducted from your account and converted to cash, that cash does belong to you and they are withholding it. If the process never occurred and it is still in Virtual Money form... well, let's just say I would invest in some kneepads.

If I'm misunderstanding how studio accounts function, please step in and correct me; a lot of this is coming from assumption and my knowledge of how I run my account.


Either way, keep at it and stay calm and patient. They have a lot of legal protection and are known to take a while to get back to you, so you really are kinda relying the human element here: be nice but be persistent.

 

[Jessica_Jean]

I just stared Chaturbate a week ago or so and its been good so far. But this will be my first check i hope it goes well and no problems occur! Now i'm worried but this is good information to know and look out for! thanks so much and hope your issue gets resolved!

 

[DeezNA]

I just stared Chaturbate a week ago or so and its been good so far. But this will be my first check i hope it goes well and no problems occur! Now i'm worried but this is good information to know and look out for! thanks so much and hope your issue gets resolved!

I've been working on CB for over two years with only one or two serious issues that were actually resolved pretty quickly. No matter what site you're working for, it's always important to know your rights, read through the rules carefully and follow them faithfully if you want to minimize risk. CB is by far not the only site with contracts and policies like this so situations like this are not by any means CB-exclusive, I think it's important to know that.

Welcome to the entertainment industry!


But seriously though, welcome to the biz! Best of luck out there!

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Funny thing CB. I had my supporter account froze one week after I paid. No reason I could tell, no idea what caused it. CB said they didn't know why, couldn't help me, model verification or account is shut down. Sorry. Very infuriating. (But they did give me a refund for the tokens that were in that account)

But a couple other times I have had accounts get that stupid shadow ban/tip freeze thing, they always resolved that within an hour. Wonder wtf is going on there. They got a drunk orangutan making these decisions? A poorly coded .js?

There's a model who thinks I'm done tipping her on sites, and I planned to use that to surprise her by ambushing her with a small sack of tokens in a couple of weeks. Site of choice was CB, just because the bigger tips make better noises. But now I am starting to view that idea as a very foolish one.

For one thing, I logged in with a vpn, no probs with it til now. But other night I got a message about being barred from chatting with an anon proxy. So I'm guessing that one chat token I have been holding is living on borrowed time. Not going to be surprised if the account gets frozen.

For another thing, like @fandango said, they are presenting themselves as either crooks or amateurs. Either way, not to be trusted with a bank transfer. Nope.

@DeezNA enlightening bit about virtual money.

 

[DeezNA]

@justjoinedtopost It's all pretty clearly stated in the legally-binding Terms of Service contract that everyone agrees to when they sign up, along with a lot of other very interesting terms that could shine light onto many of the qualms people have with sites like this; the problem is no one takes the time to read legal contracts they are signing. Thank you for the positive credit about virtual money info; it would be good to note that MFC has a very similar policy, as I'm sure other sites that use artificial currency as well. It's good to fully understand the system which one is actively using.

To be fair, regardless of peoples' opinions of how a site looks or the way the site is run (my own opinions included), CB is still one of the top camsites out there. The broader problem is that there just aren't a lot of quality, reputable, reliable options for camsites out there that give a fair payout, have decent traffic and are user-friendly on both sides. Yes, they have a lot of ads - they also pay out a better percentage to models because of this. Yes, they can be ban-happy - this has gotten a lot of undesirables/underages/scammers off the site. It's easy to get upset and blame the system but it solves nothing, it takes a bit more effort to figure out why things happened and work out a solution: what I'm sincerely hoping will happen for @Cyber_Jay .


Just a little unsolicited feedback footnote, feel free to disregard - If you keep making new accounts, you will have eyes on your IP: it just looks suspicious. Likely why one would be banned and why it would be quickly resolved once explained. Any time you're using a VPN, proxy or scrambler and making financial transactions, you're going to have eyes on you for inverse reasons (different IPs accessing one account and moving money). It's one of those "why are you playing things so 'safe' if you're not doing anything wrong?" situations; since site security has to manage so much traffic, it's a lot easier to just assume guilt and let the member figure it out later and the site has full legal protection to do so. I despise that way of enforcing policies, I don't agree with it, but if that's how they do it... it's how they do it. Plus, who knows how much of it is automated? I'm genuinely sorry you had such negative experiences, it obviously doesn't reflect well on the site or its reputation, but to prevent future stress or conflict, I find it is better to understand why these things are happening rather than to be resentful. Just my two-cents, I hope it's received with an open mind.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

@justjoinedtopost it would be good to note that MFC has a very similar policy, as I'm sure other sites that use artificial currency as well.

I did have one hiccup on MFC, where they locked down the account. Emailed them, and after an email exchange in which they said "Yeah, who the f*ck are you." and I id'ed myself, it has been smooth sailing ever since. Even making it easier for me to buy tokens.

But the CB account that got froze, that was the first acct I had with them. No malicious shit, no trolling or harassment, none of that. Damned if I can figure out what caused it. Since then, multiple accounts, but if they had never froze that first one probly still be using it. And it seems like they enjoy making it progressively more difficult to buy tokens.

I like CB. Wish to hell they would get their act together.

 

[Cyber_Jay]

Thanks again to all posters, I have not had any further replies from Shirley or CB, I will try again on Monday...

@DeezNA - I really appreciate your helpful and useful posts. Forgive me for not quoting various parts of what you said but I think we are on the same page, so I will just make my comments to all below:

I agree using VPNs and multiple accounts is likely to be flagged by automated systems. However, the use of VPN is a tool and not evidence of any wrong doing. I often use VPNs to help in my work (testing websites' IP geolocation code etc.). I also believe in a free and uncensored global internet, but that is a 'moral' viewpoint.

The use of multiple accounts from an IP address is also not evidence of wrong doing. How else are a group of performers using the same internet connection meant to operate?

But until I have more information from Chaturbate regarding the alleged fraudulent activity it is impossible to say what has happened.

DeezNA, your summary of how studio accounts work seems right. The main account doesn't actually receive tokens (they do not show up in the token balance) from its studio performers, they just show up in the accounts transactions summarised by performer and $ amount. So there is no further 'cashing out' to do. I guess we are saying that even though payments that are said to be automatically 'cashed out', they are not really cashed out since the funds stay in no-man's land until the bank/cheque/Payoneer transfer is initiated.

Chaturbate's 'studio system' itself is very different to other cam sites. The sign up url is given out so models can sign up with a studio. Any standard account on CB can be a studio account if the sign up link is used when creating an account, the studio admin won't even know about it until money is sent from the new account. With a system like this, where does the studio's account holder's responsibility end?

With other cam sites the creation of a studio account is not the same as user account, and the master studio account itself must be used to create model accounts.

I can only speculate but when the words "evidence of fraud" are used - I can only assume we are talking about card payment fraud. If a model was paid with tokens obtained illegally - then rightly or wrongly, I would understand if Chaturbate withheld the tokens in question, pending further investigation. Although I personally feel if that was the case the website should pay the model since shortcomings in the payment system are no fault of the performer.

However I find it hard to believe that over 2 weeks, in many separate shows, $2000+ of tokens received by several different models were all obtained fraudulently - if that were the case why wait so long before flagging it? There has to be a log of all token transactions and methods of payment showing source and destination.

As I said in my first post this account has worked for 3 months. New performers signed up in July so the payout was higher than previous months. This could be something else that an automated system could flag up.

All in all this is a very disappointing and frustrating experience, I really want to work with Chaturbate to resolve this (yes, I fear it may take a long time).

Although this issue should serve as a warning to other small studio accounts of what could happen - I don't want it to put off performers like @Jessica_Jean - I have just been very unlucky. I would recommend having backup accounts at other sites of your choice, just in case things go wrong. There is no perfect site, things can always go wrong, I guess that is why an important part of your choice should be checking out how good the user support side of things is, and as DeezNA has pointed out read the T&Cs carefully.

Thanks
Jay

 

[DeezNA]

Thank you, @Cyber_Jay , for more info on how studios work on CB. That was a big part of why studios never made sense to me as a model, I really only have model-side perspective from working with CB and Streammate (given that I have these darn male genitalia and all...), so my understanding of studios has been pretty much all hearsay and speculation based on personal experience with running my own business.

I'll try to go through one by one with my responses.

VPN's are not absolute evidence of guilt at all, but it's kinda like wearing a ski-mask on a routine bank visit. VPN's are totally fine to use (unless there's some clause in the Terms that I missed that forbids them, technically it could be interpreted as fraudulent behavior), but they do give off the vibe that you are trying to intentionally hide your IP, which no one would really need to do unless they felt their true IP needed to be hidden. The wonderful thing about a free internet is that Chaturbate can also write an airtight contract in which we agreed:"Your right to use the Service is subject to any limitations, conditions and restrictions established by us from time to time, in our sole discretion. We may alter, suspend or discontinue any aspect of the Service or the Site at any time, including the availability of any Service feature, database or content. We may also impose limits on certain features and aspects of the Service or restrict your access to parts or all of the Service without notice or liability." Yeah, and that's just the first Term. So basically, unless there's a really good reason for it, I tend to stay away from doing anything that could look suspicious; it's just not worth the risk. There's a big difference between "un-policed" and "free", but that's another discussion altogether.

Addressing multiple accounts on the same IP, while it may be an unfortunate necessity for you currently, there are a multitude of reasons that this can be viewed as suspicious. Users who have been banned and are trying to get back on the site, models who broke rules and are trying to "trick the system" by adding an _ at the end of their old name, shit like that. That's why everyone switched over to IP bans in the first place. Unfortunately, we're seeing some heavy side-effects from that and the perpetrators are just learning how to bypass IP bans. I would bet there is a good chance a lot of the 'multiple accounts on one IP' ban issues are due to automation, but I don't know how CB's system works on that end.

If the transfers to your studio account are cash (aka not Virtual Money or 'tokens'), then regardless of the ban, they are withholding a payment that you are owed. That bodes pretty well for you as far as the money issue goes; I would definitely request your account's activity record for reference in this issue. If cash transfers were made into the account (read - not token transfers), there should be plenty of record of that and they would be withholding actual money that you are owed, not Virtual Money that they can pretend doesn't exist. A debt is a debt - as long as it is no longer 'tokens', whether it's in limbo state or not, it's a payment owed.

I strongly doubt the fraud accusation was due to a customer - they would be investigating the customer, not shutting down model accounts left and right. If it was a matter of fraudulent currency, the tokens would just be removed like you said, they wouldn't throw away business over that. The model in question and subsequently your studio is under suspicion of fraud. Why? I have no clue. It's kinda fucked that they can just shut you down like that without even telling you exactly why, but they reserved every legal right to. I'd still try to find a reason; it doesn't really make sense why CB wouldn't try to work it out, they lose money if they lose several models.

 

[SoTxBob]

With all the grief, I'm really surprised that by now, someone hasn't done a "CBstyle" site that's actually got some access to a performer "service door" and some good integrity instead of a 'maybe we will or maybe not', attitude. Couples have very few decent options for sites to work.
Jay- as for the card charge fraud thing, in my experience over the years, i have only seen 2-3 sites that pay the girl and lump the loss if the tokens were purchased with stolen or otherwise bogus cards. Chargebacks are pretty common for that reason. Romanian maffia was notorious for this for many years as studios were great places to wash the money. Endeavour to persevere. Good luck.

 

[UniCornX]

Romanian maffia was notorious for this for many years as studios were great places to wash the money.

... as you can see in Liv´s room ........

 

[Diana]

Hey i have a question for you. I had an account on chaturbate and i had earn TK but i have to close the account, will i still get my ear TK paid in the paidment period. ?