Coop cam/creator platform

[cooperr]

tl;dr: I think the way the current camming/fan platforms (& wider tech/banking industries) operate is unfair, exploitative and wrong. I'm looking to build tools/platforms that are cooperatively owned by the workers and creators (sharing decision making and profits). I'd really appreciate some help from you in identifying the most common problems for OSWs currently, to work out where to start.

Longer version:

From what I've seen in news, academic research, reddit, this forum - online sex workers in general have limited control over the platforms they depend on, leading to issues like: deplatforming, accounts and money frozen, being criminalised, etc. Heck, most of the Chaturbate forum here is people being banned when they shouldn't have been, and not having access to their money as a result.

Meanwhile, platforms bring in massive profits to their owners (OF generated $500m over 2 years for Leonid Radvinsky alone), and that's over a period where OFs tried to deplatform all adult creators!

This seems wrong to me. I'd like to see more platforms and tools for OSWs owned by OSWs, so that OSWs are in control of decision making (no OFs style deplatforming), and share in profits. So, I am looking to build one, having previously built successful tech companies (not coops) in the UK in other industries. I first need to work out if there's potential for a business like this to be successful.

My big ask is: what are the top 3 problems you're facing as a cam model or online creator currently (these can be mundane, small daily things, or bigger - but ideally things that you'd really like to see changed). I'd also be really keen to hear your general thoughts (positive or negative) about the idea of cooperatively owned OSW tools. If you'd be up for chatting to me on a call about either of these - that would be amazing too!

Thank you + and I hope this is in the right place / OK to post mods!

 

[mika_kedi]

top 3 problems are things that have nothing to do with who owns the platform and are all connected:
- anti sex work organizations, stigmatisation of sex work
- banking discrimination, payment processors having power to decide what's acceptable on an adult site
- laws like FOSTA/SESTA, forcing identity verification for customers is some regions

 

[KingMarti]

and it's those problems listed above that cause all the other issues you mentioned.

 

[cooperr]

Hi both, thanks so much for the replies

@mika_kedi
1. One potential tool could be payments for OSWs - could that be a way to help directly with your #2? In what ways does this problem manifest for you day-to-day, or is it having to be aware and abide by platform terms of what's acceptable?
2. The anti sex work organisations and laws like FOSTA/SESTA seem somewhat linked, is that a fair understanding? I'm also aware of similar bills being passed elsewhere (one in the UK currently) - do you have ideas for how the power balance could be shifted for the better here? It might be negligible, but if more of the industry was SW owned and supported (lobbied for!?) SW aligned legalisation, could that help?

@KingMarti
I agree, lots of these things are connected - what do you see as the causal link you see between @mika_kedi's list and the profits being extracted by people who own platforms like OFs?

Thanks!

 

[ArcticKitty]

I love the thought of creator economy platform cooperatives. The obstacle isn't in the lack of SW tools though, it's in the marketing and support costs and the online transactions processing.

And it is all the more complicated when it involves adult content because of the legalities and sharp vigilance required to a degree that I can only imagine. We're talking about an amount of start up and runway capital that a group of individuals are not likely to be able to self-finance.

For example, what webcam sites bring is a large number of users to a platform that is maintained and monitored and handles payments in addition to user support. For that, they take a large cut of a model's gross earnings.
I think of the business model as akin to sharecropping. But from the model's perspective it's also low cost on the front end. The platform's profit margin may be high but it's not a game changer for the model or a deal killer.

My understanding is that independent webcam modeling and AV content were a thing from early on. And there are Plenty of tech savvy models and content creators today, including some who can write software. That said, the choice to sign on with webcam sites and video platforms is a rational one. If I'm a model, I can devote my time and efforts to working and promotion and eat what I kill.

 

[cooperr]

Hi @ArcticKitty - lots of great points, thanks!

If I'm a model, I can devote my time and efforts to working and promotion and eat what I kill.

I totally agree - I don't want to change that, I would like to see less exploitative models for the businesses though, and give the SW platform users more of a say in business decisions. An example of the sort of setup I'm thinking of, from another industry (stock photography / film), is stoksey.com. The artists are still focusing on their photography or videography, they just also can influence company decisons, have representatives on the board and share in end of year profits.

You make a really interesting point about marketing, I don't know enough about how things currently work. To what extent do camming platforms do marketing on behalf of the models? My understanding was that models still need to do a lot of their own marketing?

When it comes to the other costs, like transaction processing (usually around 5% for these types of payments), and support costs they are certainly higher in an industry like this, but they still scale with volume, so it's not something I think makes it impossible. I wouldn't be expecting the models to be funding this.

If the economics worked, and a model like Stoksey's was applicable - what do you think the minimal feature set would need to be for you to consider using the site? Are there any things you wish were different on the current platforms you use?

Thanks a bunch!

 

[AussieCosplay]

I think that if you want to create an SW owned platform and understand what is needed in that, you should be doing camming yourself.

There's no way to understand something that you've never done.
How would you start a Michelin starred restaurant if you've never cooked before?

 

[Vixxen81]

All I have to say is good luck getting American Republicans to openly support "sex is great and everybody should do it!" The fundamental reasoning behind these laws is that if it's too mainstream, too acceptable, too easy to access then it is no longer fun or taboo or dirty or naughty or something they have to beat off in a closet about when they go to confession the next week. You're dealing with the single most puritanical society in the modern world.

Violence. Good.
Sex. Bad.

 

[bud9752]

I think that if you want to create an SW owned platform and understand what is needed in that, you should be doing camming yourself.

There's no way to understand something that you've never done.
How would you start a Michelin starred restaurant if you've never cooked before?

but , I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[mika_kedi]

Hi both, thanks so much for the replies

@mika_kedi
1. One potential tool could be payments for OSWs - could that be a way to help directly with your #2? In what ways does this problem manifest for you day-to-day, or is it having to be aware and abide by platform terms of what's acceptable?
2. The anti sex work organisations and laws like FOSTA/SESTA seem somewhat linked, is that a fair understanding? I'm also aware of similar bills being passed elsewhere (one in the UK currently) - do you have ideas for how the power balance could be shifted for the better here? It might be negligible, but if more of the industry was SW owned and supported (lobbied for!?) SW aligned legalisation, could that help?

@KingMarti
I agree, lots of these things are connected - what do you see as the causal link you see between @mika_kedi's list and the profits being extracted by people who own platforms like OFs?

Thanks!

For someone who wants sex workers to be treated fairly you for sure want very detailed answers without providing us any payment. I was able to educate myself on these issues even before I started SW, you can too if you don't have a consultation budget.

I actually have a question to you that might make me (maybe us?) more likely to treat you seriously. Who are you? What is your connection to sex work and sex workers and why did you decide to build that platform?

 

[MarieElise]

For someone who wants sex workers to be treated fairly you for sure want very detailed answers without providing us any payment. I was able to educate myself on these issues even before I started SW, you can too if you don't have a consultation budget.

I actually have a question to you that might make me (maybe us?) more likely to treat you seriously. Who are you? What is your connection to sex work and sex workers and why did you decide to build that platform?

Definitely on the “maybe us” part. I haven’t taken it seriously purely because this person a) seems to know nothing and b) hasn’t said who they are or why the supposedly feel so passionately about this lol There are atleast two of us wondering about that glaring omission.

 

[ArcticKitty]

Hi @ArcticKitty - lots of great points, thanks!


I totally agree - I don't want to change that, I would like to see less exploitative models for the businesses though, and give the SW platform users more of a say in business decisions. An example of the sort of setup I'm thinking of, from another industry (stock photography / film), is stoksey.com. The artists are still focusing on their photography or videography, they just also can influence company decisons, have representatives on the board and share in end of year profits.

You make a really interesting point about marketing, I don't know enough about how things currently work. To what extent do camming platforms do marketing on behalf of the models? My understanding was that models still need to do a lot of their own marketing?

When it comes to the other costs, like transaction processing (usually around 5% for these types of payments), and support costs they are certainly higher in an industry like this, but they still scale with volume, so it's not something I think makes it impossible. I wouldn't be expecting the models to be funding this.

If the economics worked, and a model like Stoksey's was applicable - what do you think the minimal feature set would need to be for you to consider using the site? Are there any things you wish were different on the current platforms you use?

Thanks a bunch!

I'm trying to understand what you are asking but I think you are operating under a misconception. First off though, I don't model.

Regarding what I said the other day, the technical side isn't the issue, the start-up capital requirements to launch a platform and develop brand recognition and get to a critical mass of users and vendors is the issue. That was what I was saying in a nutshell. Just basic venture economics that apply to Alibaba and OnlyFans alike.

Stocksy is a different business entirely and it's model doesn't carry over. Film and stock photography collectives and cooperative art galleries have limited markets. I've been a member of two co-ops myself as an artist. Briefly, most artists don't make a living from their work and we have concerns that justify participating in lengthy and sometimes heated committee meetings and working hours in the gallery.


Honestly, if you are really interested in starting a new cam platform, you really are best off starting by consulting with a model - paying for her time as a business consultant. It's what I did when I was considering going into cam modeling.

 

[cooperr]

Whoa lots of relpies! I'll try and get back to each one in turn

 

[cooperr]

I think that if you want to create an SW owned platform and understand what is needed in that, you should be doing camming yourself.

I think that could be a great idea, 'dogfooding' can be a really effective way to gain insights - and is something I've already been considering, and might well do. That said, I do still think there are benefits from talking to experienced creators too, which is why I'm doing that as well - maybe both is the ideal!?

From my experience it's not impossible to build great products even if you're not an end user yourself. Also, in the Michelin star example you give, many top restaurants are started by the business partners who do the day-to-day running, financing and managing of the restaurant, and partner with top chefs (e.g. 2023 winner Dede).

 

[cooperr]

All I have to say is good luck getting American Republicans to openly support "sex is great and everybody should do it!" The fundamental reasoning behind these laws is that if it's too mainstream, too acceptable, too easy to access then it is no longer fun or taboo or dirty or naughty or something they have to beat off in a closet about when they go to confession the next week. You're dealing with the single most puritanical society in the modern world.

Violence. Good.
Sex. Bad.

Thanks for the good luck wish! I think that's an interesting take, though I'm not sure all popularity of pornography/SW can be put down to societal puritanic beliefs only. Also, the US isn't the only market, there are others too, Europe combined is a larger consumer than the US, for example (source).

 

[cooperr]

For someone who wants sex workers to be treated fairly you for sure want very detailed answers without providing us any payment. I was able to educate myself on these issues even before I started SW, you can too if you don't have a consultation budget.

I actually have a question to you that might make me (maybe us?) more likely to treat you seriously. Who are you? What is your connection to sex work and sex workers and why did you decide to build that platform?

Ahh no, I'm sorry you feel unfairly treated here, definitely not my intention. I'm not against paying for user research participants at some point - though have also seen situations where making things payment orientated can (counter-intuitively) get worse participation and skew answers. I have been doing a lot of desk research already, but there's not lots on the sentiment towards cooperatively owned adult platforms (yet!) - which is part of why I started this thread.

Sure - happy to answer questions too! Here's my LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trogers3/ if that's useful context. I don't have a strong prior connection to SW, I've been talking to some local (UK based) SWs, but that's only been since starting this research. I've not built anything yet. I'm researching a few industries at the same time currently (OSW being one of them) to build a tech coop - I'm trying to understand where such a model could be a good fit, or even advantageous. I believe that having more cooperative businesses (especially when it comes to tech platforms) would be a good thing for reducing societal wealth and power inequality (inspired by coops like Mondragon in Spain), and I want to put my skills and experience in building tech companies to something that I feel is a good use.

 

[cooperr]

Definitely on the “maybe us” part. I haven’t taken it seriously purely because this person a) seems to know nothing and b) hasn’t said who they are or why the supposedly feel so passionately about this lol There are atleast two of us wondering about that glaring omission.

Hey, that feels a little harsh and judgemental, but I get it, and I get why - I'm sure I'd do the same if roles were reversed. I hope the additional context in the reply above is helpful, but feel free to shoot any questions to me if not - I'm even happy to jump on a call if you'd like to ask more.

 

[cooperr]

Hey @ArcticKitty, I appreciate you taking the time to try and iron out any miscommunication or misunderstandings - can be super easy to cross wires in threads like these, and on reflection my inital post could definitely have been clearer.

I know the costs involved in launching businesses, I've done multiple rounds of startup fundraising before myself, and had to navigate attracting customers and building partnerships first hand. There are definitely reasons why it would be different doing it here, but it's still not something I'm so concerned about at this point - but I appreciate the heads up.

I do respectfully disagree that Alibaba and OnlyFans are super alike in their funding or go-to-market strategies. OnlyFans was started through a £10k loan from Tim Stokely's dad and is (almost solely?) marketed by the creators on the platform (no discovery on platform), whereas Alibaba did a first raise of US$25 million from Goldman Sachs and Softbank, and is known for it's bold, innovative and expensive marketing campaigns.

That said, there are enevitably bits I'm missing, for example when you talk about 'scaling vendors' - what do you mean in this context? 3rd party tech services like live streaming? Adult payments providers? Or something else?

Maybe the Stocksey example has confused things, if so, apologies of that. It sounds like you've got some really great insight into artist coops too. I'm not sure I totally understand what you mean by 'limited markets' though in the case of stock photography. From a quick google, the stock photography market is estimated to be over $3.3Bn - which would be Stocksey's TAM as far as I can see? Definitely not a market I know super well though (excect for previously being a business customer), so open to being corrected.

Honestly, if you are really interested in starting a new cam platform, you really are best off starting by consulting with a model - paying for her time as a business consultant. It's what I did when I was considering going into cam modeling.

Yep, I'm open to that too (have been talking to some UK based SWs already) - the aim here was to broaden the scope beyond a small number of interviews, and ask for problems people are experiencing at a larger scale.

 

[MarieElise]

Hey, that feels a little harsh and judgemental, but I get it, and I get why - I'm sure I'd do the same if roles were reversed. I hope the additional context in the reply above is helpful, but feel free to shoot any questions to me if not - I'm even happy to jump on a call if you'd like to ask more.

Not harsh. Blunt. I can tell you don’t know anything about this industry and are very naive to it. Not a judgement, an observation. You just don’t like it, or the way I worded it apparently.

Judgmental would be if I was attributing motives to you and your posts, which I didn’t . You don’t know much about this industry. That’s pretty clear and it seems you don’t know the meaning of the word judgmental either. My rate is $125 per hour for calls. I’m not super interested in your project though… so …. you’re still free to waste the $125 if you want though. However my motivation level to help you w this is -10 of 10. And my genuine interest level in this project is about the same. I only commented to validate and back up something a fellow sex worker expressed. Not to even interact w you. If I had cared that much, I would have said it myself . All I cared about was letting her know she wasn’t alone in her thinking. Not your actual project.

You can call that harsh. I call it honest and efficient w time and communication. I don’t owe you an interest in your project, any collaborative work, or any explanations of how marketing in this industry works. You are neither entitled to my enthusiasm, nor my time. Thank you.

 

[mika_kedi]

Sure - happy to answer questions too! Here's my LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trogers3/ if that's useful context.

I'm a sex worker. I do not have linkedin but I have some idea how it works, so even if I did I would not compromise my safety by visiting yours. So no, not useful at all.

 

[AmberCutie]

Europe combined is a larger consumer than the US, for example (source).

I hope that you understand Pornhub stats do not cover all of porn stats. Pornhub is a tubesite that tracks its own traffic and stats. Pornhub is also extremely different than a cam/creator site, it got its start by allowing any user to upload any video without being the creator themselves.

Don't base your research on Pornhub.

 

[AudriTwo]

isnt pornhub also still cut off from visa?

 

[cooperr]

I'm a sex worker. I do not have linkedin but I have some idea how it works, so even if I did I would not compromise my safety by visiting yours. So no, not useful at all.

I'm not sure I understand - what do you think the safety risk is about visiting LinkedIn? Or are you worried about malware? I wrote it out so you type it into your browser if you wish.

 

[cooperr]

I hope that you understand Pornhub stats do not cover all of porn stats. Pornhub is a tubesite that tracks its own traffic and stats. Pornhub is also extremely different than a cam/creator site, it got its start by allowing any user to upload any video without being the creator themselves.

Don't base your research on Pornhub.

Yeh that's a really great point. Am I right in thinking it's now more selective about who can upload content though?

If you have any other sources that you think are more representative I'd be really interested as well (and can edit my post to include it - I think!?). Traditional market research companies don't cover this industry well from what I can see.

Thanks

 

[mika_kedi]

I'm not sure I understand - what do you think the safety risk is about visiting LinkedIn? Or are you worried about malware? I wrote it out so you type it into your browser if you wish.

To see someone's full profile on linkedin you yourself need to have an account. If you have an account people who's accounts you're visiting see that you did that. Since I don't have linkedin the link is useless to me, I don't see your profile. If I had my own account it would very likely be under my government name and you could have figured out it was me visiting. Why do I have to explain that as someone who does not use linkedin to someone who is using it?

 

[cooperr]

isnt pornhub also still cut off from visa?

As far as I can tell yes - and Mastercard too? Though I've been told I don't know anything, so maybe better to hear from someone else...

 

[cooperr]

To see someone's full profile on linkedin you yourself need to have an account. If you have an account people who's accounts you're visiting see that you did that. Since I don't have linkedin the link is useless to me, I don't see your profile. If I had my own account it would very likely be under my government name and you could have figured out it was me visiting. Why do I have to explain that as someone who does not use linkedin to someone who is using it?

Ahh yeh, that makes sense - my bad, I think that didn't used to be the case and my profile is public - totally fair. If you have specific things you'd like to know happy to answer them instead

 

[Lexi_Summers]

Ahh yeh, that makes sense - my bad, I think that didn't used to be the case and my profile is public - totally fair. If you have specific things you'd like to know happy to answer them instead

You don't get it do you?
Models aren't going to waste their time to ask questions about something that has a 99% fail forecast from what you've already written, unless you PAY FOR OUR TIME doing your research in which we will then ofc ask questions so you can answer them on OUR PAID TIME in case any of us would still be interested in (not so much the project) making some cash.

 

[AudriTwo]

As far as I can tell yes - and Mastercard too? Though I've been told I don't know anything, so maybe better to hear from someone else...

I dont understand the passive aggressiveness towards me. Its okay not to know things. Isnt that why you are here?

Again the example site you are sourcing allowed everyone including their pedo uncle to upload any type of content without model 2257 forms, and got their ass handed to them in court over CP.

And because of pornhubs batshiteray, it has probably influenced payment processors to be more stricter with adult sites who have always required 2257 forms and verification to post content. Circling back to our perspective. Our biggest problems are out of our control.

Anywho if you are interested in being consulted more, hourly rate is gonna be applied. Good luck your coop adult site.

 

[Marceline]

Am I right in thinking it's now more selective about who can upload content though?

Not sure if the “am I right in thinking” is tongue in cheek or not, but this is something anyone who is even remotely interested in the well-being of online sex workers should know, because the whole situation with Pornhub changed the entire landscape of online sex work possibly forever.

But, yes. As Audri said above, PornHub used to allow anyone to upload anything to their site. CP, violent sexual assault, revenge porn, videos taken without consent, pirated content.

There was a lot of illegal content on there, and a lot of the time PH just ignored takedown requests of this illegal content. Eventually, a scathing article on PH and their shitty practices came out in The New York Times and it went viral. People were outraged and payment processors couldn’t ignore the matter like PH was. So, Mastercard and Visa stopped processing payments for PH, which finally made PH put in a verification process for anyone uploading content and they wiped the site of any content posted by non-verified users. Honestly, I’d be surprised if even vanilla people who aren’t interested at all in helping out sex workers didn’t know about that, because when PH deleted the majority of the content off the platform, since it was unverified content, it was all over social media. Front page of Reddit, trending on Twitter, even on my personal Facebook account there was people talking about it.

Anyway, payment processors didn’t just stop with Pornhub. The whole adult industry was being side eyed, or even outright vilified, more than ever because of Pornhub’s actions going unchecked for as long as it did. So, payment processors became even more strict with what content is and isn’t allowed on other adult sites. Clip sites and cam sites have to comply or else they could potentially lose their way to process payments, and this leads to it being a lot harder for us in the industry to just do our jobs. I could sit here and write a full on essay about the ways just creating and uploading has changed due to the payment processors/banks, and how drastically the content rules/tos has changed on multiple sites since the payment processor crackdown, in the last six+ years I’ve been in this industry. Not going to, since I don’t have the time and I honestly wouldn’t want to be the person who puts that info out for non-industry workers to see.

But anyway, all of this to say, maybe using Pornhub as an example for anything isn’t the best idea. But yes, you were right in thinking that they are now more selective with who uploads.

If you have any other sources that you think are more representative I'd be really interested as well

I doubt you’re going to find any clip site that openly posts their sales stats and announce which country has the most paying consumers. And remember, just because someone is consuming porn doesn’t mean they’re paying for it.