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Trump has banned Transgender people from the military

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That we're still debating bathrooms is proof enough that this shouldn't be a combat distraction.
Yeah. It probably shouldn't be a distraction, but instead of singling out transgendered people, maybe those who are afraid to use the bathroom near possibly differing genitalia could be marked unfit for combat? Someone too prissy and fearful to tinkle in a public bathroom without extra rules protecting them from unknown junk should probably look elsewhere for employment.
 
They're like "HAHHA Gotcha"....but not really. Then they try to pull out something from someone who isn't even a feminist as proof of such and that fails too. Then they try to go on about women who want to be homemakers and some other bullshit. Like, yeah, and? The point is choice. Equality. That includes women who want to choose to be SAHMs or homemakers. The point is it not being forced on them. It also applies to men who want to be SAHDs and homemakers too. They should have that choice. Not be forced into otherwise. It's all very simple really but people are really trying right now to take down the feminist label and movement and taint it and make it into something extreme/bad/etc and only weak minded lazy people are falling for it. Man haters aren't feminists. Those not for equality in everything aren't either. Sorry to burst that bubble. Not really though lol. Everyone should be eligible for the draft. Everyone should be able to join the military freely, barring medical reasons. That includes the LGBT community. And being part of that community is not some medical condition that should disqualify you.
You and @GenXoxo took my post out of context. It wasn't about dropping anything on anyone like you two made it out to be. The fact is, many people for equality only when it benefits them, and then when the ugly side of what they are crying for shows itself, they want nothing to do with it and still claim unfair.
I was commenting on my experiences and conversations with many whom did that very thing when they said it was unfair about women not in combat roles. Most women I know whom either have, or currently are serving don't want the draft for women. Same with many people who are civilians. Yet, they want equality for women to fight. Wonder if they have thought about the brutalities of war...
Not saying there aren't women whom can't handle it. But, rarely do people understand things...
 
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You and @GenXoxo took my post out of context. It wasn't about dropping anything on anyone like you two made it out to be. The fact is, many people for equality only when it benefits them, and then when the ugly side of what they are crying for shows itself, they want nothing to do with it and still claim unfair.
I was commenting on my experiences and conversations with many whom did that very thing when they said it was unfair about women not in combat roles. Most women I know whom either have, or currently are serving don't want the draft for women. Same with many people who are civilians. Yet, they want equality for women to fight. Wonder if they have thought about the brutalities of war...
Not saying there aren't women whom can't handle it. But, rarely do people understand things...

This specifically is what I meant about acting like it's a Gotcha, as if nobody has considered this:
Well, guess what, welcome to the shit. "Equality" comes with an ugly side that few seem to think about.

What is the context that I'm missing? I think it's logically sound to say women should be allowed to willingly sign up ("they want the equality to fight"), without wanting them to be drafted. The disconnect seems to be the assumption that feminists want *only* women exempt from the draft, which would be unequal. My point was that most feminists I know don't believe in a draft at all, and thus would like men and women to both be exempt from it...which would be equal.
 
This specifically is what I meant about acting like it's a Gotcha, as if nobody has considered this:


What is the context that I'm missing? I think it's logically sound to say women should be allowed to willingly sign up ("they want the equality to fight"), without wanting them to be drafted. The disconnect seems to be the assumption that feminists want *only* women exempt from the draft, which would be unequal. My point was that most feminists I know don't believe in a draft at all, and thus would like men and women to both be exempt from it...which would be equal.

There is no disconnect at all. There is no assumption that it's only feminists, nor LGBT, nor whatever group you want to say. My comments were very generic in the fact that people need to be careful about what they push for when it comes to "equality" as they only think of what they see as a positive or "victory" for whatever group's rights. Then, when the stark reality of them being subject to the draft, or very brutal physical conditions hits them, they have doubts and reservations and then claim it's unfair to them. Yes, some people consider such negatives. But, it is ever very seldom brought up when these things are being pushed through.
Most of these issues are politically motivated, rather than what's best for the military. It's been proven that units containing women in close combat roles (infantry) are typically slower, and unable to perform at the same pace as all male units simply because of the demands placed on the body. There are also many questions regarding how others, such as transgender (pre or post op) individuals may cause issues with unit cohesion which will ultimately affect performance as well as survivability. Especially since there has been reduction in standards to allow women to pass. What will be reduced next because of the next social hot topic with the military?

This also isn't just a US issue. The UK, and other countries are facing many of the same issues as well.
 
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There is no disconnect at all. There is no assumption that it's only feminists, nor LGBT, nor whatever group you want to say. My comments were very generic in the fact that people need to be careful about what they push for when it comes to "equality" as they only think of what they see as a positive or "victory" for whatever group's rights. Then, when the stark reality of them being subject to the draft, or very brutal physical conditions hits them, they have doubts and reservations and then claim it's unfair to them. Yes, some people consider such negatives. But, it is ever very seldom brought up when these things are being pushed through.
Most of these issues are politically motivated, rather than what's best for the military. It's been proven that units containing women in close combat roles (infantry) are typically slower, and unable to perform at the same pace as all male units simply because of the demands placed on the body. There are also many questions regarding how others, such as transgender (pre or post op) individuals may cause issues with unit cohesion which will ultimately affect performance as well as survivability. Especially since there has been reduction in standards to allow women to pass. What will be reduced next because of the next social hot topic with the military?

This also isn't just a US issue. The UK, and other countries are facing many of the same issues as well.
What I meant by the disconnect was each of us inferring and misinterpreting the other. I do think there is a big difference between whether someone chooses or is forced into service. That is what I'm commenting on, not whether those people are fit for service or whether standards should be lowered. I don't think most people who push for XYZ group to be eligible are saying all of them should be eligible for conscription. But I understand what you're saying about different standards.
 
There is no disconnect at all. There is no assumption that it's only feminists, nor LGBT, nor whatever group you want to say. My comments were very generic in the fact that people need to be careful about what they push for when it comes to "equality" as they only think of what they see as a positive or "victory" for whatever group's rights. Then, when the stark reality of them being subject to the draft, or very brutal physical conditions hits them, they have doubts and reservations and then claim it's unfair to them. Yes, some people consider such negatives. But, it is ever very seldom brought up when these things are being pushed through.
Most of these issues are politically motivated, rather than what's best for the military. It's been proven that units containing women in close combat roles (infantry) are typically slower, and unable to perform at the same pace as all male units simply because of the demands placed on the body. There are also many questions regarding how others, such as transgender (pre or post op) individuals may cause issues with unit cohesion which will ultimately affect performance as well as survivability. Especially since there has been reduction in standards to allow women to pass. What will be reduced next because of the next social hot topic with the military?

This also isn't just a US issue. The UK, and other countries are facing many of the same issues as well.
I feel like this argument against equality always looms and doesn't work on two levels.
1. Equality affording some people things that look advantageous in certain scenarios does not excuse inequality.
2. It's mixing up equality and fairness.
Drafting women and men is equality. I can admit that and still call out drafting tactics as unfairly targeting certain groups. I don't have to advocate for the draft in order to advocate for equality. Advocating for gender to not be an issue for joining the armed forces is equality, but asking anyone who wants to take part to be able to perform at the current standard level is fair. As long as all genders are given the same chance to take the same test, that is equality and all anyone is asking for.
 
I feel like this argument against equality always looms and doesn't work on two levels.
1. Equality affording some people things that look advantageous in certain scenarios does not excuse inequality.
2. It's mixing up equality and fairness.
Drafting women and men is equality. I can admit that and still call out drafting tactics as unfairly targeting certain groups. I don't have to advocate for the draft in order to advocate for equality. Advocating for gender to not be an issue for joining the armed forces is equality, but asking anyone who wants to take part to be able to perform at the current standard level is fair. As long as all genders are given the same chance to take the same test, that is equality and all anyone is asking for.

We're basically saying the same thing. Everyone should have the same chance to apply, interview and potentially be accepted into a class in order to attend. However, certain situations will disqualify someone due to height/weight standards, physical conditions such as poor health or physically/mentally incapable of doing so. Have no disagreement with this.
But, my point was still about how some do not take into account the negatives of such things such as being on the front lines, humping a 90lb pack and additional gear for miles on end a day, draft, etc.

I'll post two links for additional information on some things:

No women pass OCS school

Women sue over physical testing unfair to women Yes, this is not military related. But, is shown that women do claim "unfair" when given equal chances. Not to pick solely on women. But, this is common in such fields of work
 
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I feel like this argument against equality always looms and doesn't work on two levels.
1. Equality affording some people things that look advantageous in certain scenarios does not excuse inequality.
2. It's mixing up equality and fairness.
Drafting women and men is equality. I can admit that and still call out drafting tactics as unfairly targeting certain groups. I don't have to advocate for the draft in order to advocate for equality. Advocating for gender to not be an issue for joining the armed forces is equality, but asking anyone who wants to take part to be able to perform at the current standard level is fair. As long as all genders are given the same chance to take the same test, that is equality and all anyone is asking for.
What you just said, I agree with; more or less, equality of liberty. When you say "that is all anyone is asking for", I think you may be in error.

For consideration. Canadian, but relevant. Well worth the time if you can spare it.

 
A bit OT but zoomed out from the OP:

My biggest problem with modern PC police progressive liberalism is the amount of bullying and thought policing that they do. I also hate how they bully me because I'm black and think that I'm obligated to support every LGBTQ cause.

I tried being a liberal progressive for 7 months and it was tiring. Everyday a new cause to be butthurt over, a new person to slam with a label, a new set of irrational and delusional beliefs to force on the world.

I also hate how you get hit with a label instead of a conversation.

I was called transphobic like 5 times this week because of another trans related story in the media. I was looking at it from all sides and didn't engage in the domino outrage that they wanted from me so I was the bad guy!

They like to create enemies out of ppl who are mostly allies and enemies out of anyone who doesn't wholesale agree. Social-political ideas are a la carte for me-- I pick n choose; mix and match.

May I have my own thoughts on things? Does disagreement only mean dislike or hate in some ppl's mind?

Our society is tissue soft.
 
I don't know anyone who hasn't thought about women being drafted too. There's no reason for them not to be either. Every actual feminist (not those claiming to be, or those trying to destroy the movement because they hate it) is for equally being drafted. That's not an actual downside or ugly side of equality - it's just equality.

IMO, including women in the draft would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions on so many levels.

That said, the option for women to enlist is always there.
 
IMO, including women in the draft would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions on so many levels.

That said, the option for women to enlist is always there.
examples of this clusterfuck you speak of?
 
examples of this clusterfuck you speak of?

You expect me to cite examples of something that hasn't happened yet?

"The best predictor of future behavior is … past behavior"

I've personally known and supervised women who got pregnant solely to get out of the military because they simply didn't like or couldn't handle it, and they voluntarily enlisted.

Not to mention that around 25% of women in the military are sexually assaulted that we know about. The post service suicide rate is also higher for women.

Additionally, the failure rate of women that can't be proficiently trained in firearm and basic munitions is fairly high in my personal experience.

I've known a handful of women outside of the medical field that totally kickass at their jobs, but they seem to be the exception, at least in my experience.

Is that enough clusterfuck examples for you?
 
As someone with a concealed carry who enjoys shooting and even, gasp! hunting on occasion I resemble that remark.

I feel like there are plenty of incompetent men. Perhaps the lower enlistment rate of women makes the duds stand out. Having testicles doesn't make you a better shot magically. Sure, some women might suck at munitions training but I am sure some men do too. I consider modern weaponry to be something of an equalizer.

Did those women who got pregnant release a statement about their motives or something? This sounds like a lot of conjecture and gossip, and gossip is very unmanly, Boce. As the resident forum baby hater I'm pretty sure I would take military service over a kid. Kids are a much longer commitment. (I am being facetious about babies, FYI.)

I will say, I reaaallly fail to see how women being sexually assaulted is their fault? That seems a lot more like a male behavioral issue, especially given the anecdotal rates of male on male sexual harassment.

For me, I wouldn't particularly want to be drafted but if it came to it I would go. I'd really, really hope that the draft would be for a legitimate reason and not some sort of fucked ass up agenda like the Vietnam war. That's the major thing. I am not keen on, you know, biting it on a vanity project but I do quite love Murica.

TL;dr stats from a peer reviewed or at least credible source, or gtfo. Your personal experience is not adequate.
 
As someone with a concealed carry who enjoys shooting and even, gasp! hunting on occasion I resemble that remark.

I feel like there are plenty of incompetent men. Perhaps the lower enlistment rate of women makes the duds stand out. Having testicles doesn't make you a better shot magically. Sure, some women might suck at munitions training but I am sure some men do too. I consider modern weaponry to be something of an equalizer.

A close, personal friend of mine was a primary marksman instructor for recruits during basic training. His view was that both men and women have the opportunity to become great shots. But, he says that women typically wind up being a better shooter initially due to many of them not having held a firearm before nor having preconceived notions about it. More importantly, they don't have bad habits which need to be broken.

I do love women whom enjoy shooting. Not just firearms. But, archery as well. All the women I've been involved with, I find out are against them and very much against the Second Amendment. This includes my ex-wife, whom grew up in a large family which was very involved with hunting.

Did those women who got pregnant release a statement about their motives or something? This sounds like a lot of conjecture and gossip, and gossip is very unmanly, Boce. As the resident forum baby hater I'm pretty sure I would take military service over a kid. Kids are a much longer commitment. (I am being facetious about babies, FYI.)

When I was in, we had a few women whom absolutely hated being in, and commented on how they were trying to get pregnant so they could get out of their contract. I've been out for a number of years now, and have run across a few others whom said the same thing. A good female friend of mine, whom is also a veteran, has confirmed the same thing and knows of a few she served with who did the same thing.

That being said, the percentage is pretty small of those trying to get out vs wanting to complete their enlistment. It is also no different than men finding ways of being discharged, even dishonorably, so they can get out. Regardless of male or female, the suicide rate is way too high...

I will say, I reaaallly fail to see how women being sexually assaulted is their fault? That seems a lot more like a male behavioral issue, especially given the anecdotal rates of male on male sexual harassment.

Agreed. It is a male behavioral issue, and has gone on for decades. If not since the beginning of the country, or mankind if you want to go that far back. There are the rare instances where assault/rape allegations turn out to be false. But, as best we know, they are very rare.

For me, I wouldn't particularly want to be drafted but if it came to it I would go. I'd really, really hope that the draft would be for a legitimate reason and not some sort of fucked ass up agenda like the Vietnam war. That's the major thing. I am not keen on, you know, biting it on a vanity project but I do quite love Murica.

Agreed. Even though I am pro draft, for everyone, I don't think it should be for police actions such as Vietnam. But, I also view it that the military should not be used for political agendas such as it historically has been. I also think that the military needs to be reshaped into a more mobile, and functional, organization. This would shut down a number of unnecessary bases throughout the world.
 
realistically our military is so bloated with personnel right now (those sign on bonuses were cool) that discussing a draft is actually moot, its a straw argument.
Men won't be drafted in the foreseeable future never mind women and I did serve and do think a gender equal draft should be implemented if one is to be kept.
all branches of the service have been able to afford to turn away people and not grant waivers for various conditions to allow entry for a long fricken time now. And as far as drafts go, do you have any idea how many people AREN'T physically or mentally fit to serve and would be disqualfied if a draft were implemented again?
 
realistically our military is so bloated with personnel right now (those sign on bonuses were cool) that discussing a draft is actually moot

Maybe being over bloated with personnel is why so many active duty did 3, 4, or 5 tours in a war/combat zone with little relief in-between.

If there ever comes a time when drafting women becomes necessary, it's probably too late anyway.

.02
 
This. I know quite a few with combat/related mos' that never deployed
Too late to edit this. But, I should also say that I know quite a few whom did multiple tours over the past 20 years or so. Couple friends of mine have been deployed to the Middle East longer than they've been home.
 
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