Twitter Soapbox - Racism, Sexism etc

[Nordling]

I think "rape culture" is interpretive. To me it's about a society that really doesn't take the horrors of assault seriously, and that lackadaisical attitude from the courts, police, citizens...virtually every group, is part of why the situation cannot be improved under current conditions.

 

[JickyJuly]

I think one of the problems is the term rape is such a loaded word that when added it to culture, it encourages anger instead of dialogue.

I would say the weight of the word "rape" (as higirls pointed out) is probably why rape culture exists. I don't think the problem is that men don't care about rape. I think the problem is that the idea of rape is so monstrous that we don't want to really face it. It sucks to think about. It's easier to tell ourselves that it only happens to 1% or whatever number we like. We can't have accurate rape statistics. Most women don't want to talk about their rape any more than men want to hear it. Victims of rape who do speak up (even outside of actually seeking justice) are heavily questioned because people don't want to believe it. We want to hear some misstep that this victim has made that our wives, daughters or mothers would never make. We want to hear something that keeps it from being a problem close to us. Like @JoleneBrody , I can only think of a few close friends who haven't shared a rape story. Conversely, I have talked openly about having been raped with only 2 men in my life. It's harder to talk about with men. It feels darker and more embarrassing to talk about with a man. And, when sharing with a man who loves you, it almost feels like burdening him. I tell my Dad pretty much everything. We're bffs. However, I'd rather cut off my right hand than tell him I've been a rape victim. I don't want him to be hurt. We have a toxic, rampant criminal act, and talking about it feels too costly. If addressing a crime brings more problems to the victim than the person who's done wrong, something is off. To me, that is rape culture.

The classic case being you meet a guy a party you get drunk and/or high you start making out. You decide that you aren't comfortable having sex. You think you tell him to stop, but you are both pretty drunk so who know what actually is said.

I wanted to touch on this because the scenario laid out here is kind of the Lifetime movie version of things. I'm not saying this version doesn't happen. Maybe some girls don't fight back out of fear of violence? A lot of us do fight back and end up bloodied to hell. Either way, I don't think many girls wake up wondering if they said no or not. Saying no and having someone not stop is pretty memorable. The fact that victims deal silently allows rapists to forget there was a no involved. Hell. My rape was very violent, and I didn't say the words "I was raped" until years later. None of the handful of people who saw me covered in blood, helped me clean up my wounds, or saw the dude running out of the party (once I injured him enough to stop him) said rape either. To me, that's rape culture. We don't want to say rape even when we need to. That is a problem.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Jicky, thank you.

 

[gingerhobbit]

There are a hundred little things that together add up to a rape culture, which to me is one in which sexual violence against women is treated as unremarkable.

The fact that people just don't want to think it happens is a big one. And there are many others: the sexualization of little girls, like we're grooming them to be future victims; a media and pop culture environment in which a woman's worth is based almost entirely on her so-called fuckability; and the deeply ingrained habit of disbelieving and simultaneously blaming the victim.

But the primary driver of sexual violence is anger. And everywhere around me, I see men who are so, so angry at women.

Two women graduate from Army Ranger school for the first time - a huge accomplishment - and all over the internet, men are raging about the lowering of standards and the general uselessness of women for conducting serious endeavors. (That's really been a hot issue in this part of Florida, where one phase of Ranger school is located...and men here are no less pissy about it.)

Ronda Rousey emerges as one of the most spectacular athletes of this generation, and what do we hear? Men trying to degrade her because they are so deeply offended at the idea that a woman might be able to physically overpower them. It's a challenge to their idea of male superiority.

Dozens of women step forward to accuse Bill Cosby of drugging and sexually assaulting them over the course of four decades. Again, men lose their fucking minds, dismissing them as gold-digging whores conspiring against an innocent man. The first thing out of their mouths is a defense of Cosby's legal rights. Of course, it turns out later they were telling the truth.

The other day, I had to spend some time with a random group of men and one woman. The woman was late so we had to wait for her just a couple of minutes. One of the men, in this real disgusted tone, said, "If women didn't have pussies, there'd be a bounty on them." Nobody in the group even blinked.

Hell, if you want a taste of the anger, just log into WoW and mention in trade chat that you are a woman. A good friend of mine plays, and if she had a nickel for every time she heard "whore" or "cunt," especially after beating a guy in a duel, she'd have enough money to buy a private island.

Or Christ, just Google the term "GamerGate."

And here's the crux of it.

The root of all anger between people is unmet needs. When you perceive that you have a need and something impedes your efforts to meet that need, you get frustrated and frustration leads to anger.

I believe that it's very simple - women have something men want, men are conditioned by the culture to expect women to give it to them whenever they want, but women can and do say "no." Because they have the right to choose.

So, men blame women for not meeting their perceived needs, and they seethe. And it doesn't always take a woman saying "no." Some men seethe just because women, not them, control access to sex. That seething permeates the entire culture and creates an environment in which some men feel entitled to commit sexual violence against women.

To me, that is a rape culture. To change that culture, we have to kill the twin ideas that women exist to service the sexual needs of men and that women are obligated to provide sex to men just because they want it.

And yes, guys, I know not all men. But think about two things:

One, the women on here have told us something extremely powerful - most of the women they know, including themselves in some cases, have experienced sexual violence. The women in my life have told me the exact same thing, across all ages, lifestyles, professions. That sexual violence doesn't just happen...the prevalence of these acts means there are a whole lot of men out there committing them.

Two, of all the men you spend time around - friends, co-workers, guys at the gym, the bar, the neighborhood - how many have you heard make casual, callous remarks about women that suggest an underlying anger, no matter how deeply buried? A lot of those remarks may have slipped right past you. They did with me, until a woman pointed them out, and still do sometimes. If you're really honest with yourself, I think you'll realize that it's happened enough times to be downright scary.

(ETA: Not saying all those guys are rapists, only that the attitude contributes to an atmosphere of almost permissiveness when it comes to sexual violence.)

So that's my two cents, and then some, I guess.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I wanted to touch on this because the scenario laid out here is kind of the Lifetime movie version of things. I'm not saying this version doesn't happen. Maybe some girls don't fight back out of fear of violence? A lot of us do fight back and end up bloodied to hell. Either way, I don't think many girls wake up wondering if they said no or not. Saying no and having someone not stop is pretty memorable. The fact that victims deal silently allows rapists to forget there was a no involved. Hell. My rape was very violent, and I didn't say the words "I was raped" until years later. None of the handful of people who saw me covered in blood, helped me clean up my wounds, or saw the dude running out of the party (once I injured him enough to stop him) said rape either. To me, that's rape culture. We don't want to say rape even when we need to. That is a problem.

First, I'm genuinely sadden to hear of your rape and appreciate you sharing it. There seems to be nothing ambiguous (other than perhaps the specific charge) about your situation and the guy is a criminal, period.
Because I am the wrong sex and I'm genetically unafraid of speaking up in a situations even when I know it will get me in trouble, I'll admit that don't understand not reporting that situation. I do understand that rape is different and it is a different type of crime. I also get while not reporting it to authorities certainly makes sense in the more ambiguous situations.

It's easier to tell ourselves that it only happens to 1% or whatever number we like. We can't have accurate rape statistics. Most women don't want to talk about their rape any more than men want to hear it. Victims of rape who do speak up (even outside of actually seeking justice) are heavily questioned because people don't want to believe it.

You may very well be right that we can't have accurate rape statistic because of the stigma. But what I'm really struggling with to make sense of is this. Imagine you are one of the 75,000 woman interviewed by department of justice employee (predominately woman) on the subject of being a victim of crime they ask embarrassing questions, e.g. "like has a friend stolen from you",have you been a victim of fraud or con job. When they ask have you been a victim of rape or sexual assault in the last 6 months wouldn't the anger overcome the shame? Do you think you would have said yes with 6 months of being raped?

I'm a numbers guy and so when somebody tells me something is a problem, I ask how big of a problem is it? Words like huge, ginemorous, massive, epidemic have little meaning. My second question is the problem getting bigger or smaller again numbers are critical. Anyway I guess if woman are reluctant to tell the truth in an anonymous survey than I have hard time seeing any kind of a solution.

 

[gingerhobbit]

I'm sure I must be misunderstanding you because what it seems like you're saying is that if sexual violence can't be quantified, then there is nothing we can do to stop it. And that can't be what you mean.

 

[MFCGod]

I'm a numbers guy and so when somebody tells me something is a problem, I ask how big of a problem is it? .

I don't agree with this at all

If just one victim is let down because of social pressure/reasons, or the criminal justice system, then it's a massive problem that needs to be addressed; no one should be let down.

People are real, not statistics

This reminds me of "A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic"

 

[JickyJuly]

I'll admit that don't understand not reporting that situation.

To some degree, I don't understand it either. I think of myself as a strong person and certainly a person who can be loud and aggressive. But, I didn't even admit to myself I had been raped until years later. Maybe my brain thought it was protecting me? Anytime I thought of the incident I just considered it a fight. I had been injured. I had fought back. I just kind of omitted the part where rape happened for a few years. Coping mechanism? If he had robbed me in a fight instead of raping me, my brain would have let me yell that from the rooftops. That's a product of no one wanting to talk about rape. I'm definitely not proud of my contribution to rape culture by staying silent.

When they ask have you been a victim of rape or sexual assault in the last 6 months wouldn't the anger overcome the shame? Do you think you would have said yes with 6 months of being raped?

I've never checked that box. Checking the box means answering questions with a stranger. I did get an HIV test after being raped, but I told myself it was because I had bitten this dude in our altercation.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Ginger you and I have different friends. I played MMO's for many years probably 75% of the times as a female character (Druids, Mages woman everybody else men). Now I didn't make an effort to appear to be a woman in chat, but honestly the worst I heard was dumb girl a couple of times. I also played online poker, always as a woman. I made a conscious effort to appear female poker player in my 30s living in Hawaii I got more than a few guys wanting to visit me. Generally speaking woman and men play poker differently, so any edge I could get I took. If you think people get butt hurt losing a duel in WOW, its a lot worse when it's hundreds of real dollars they lose. I can say there was exactly one time after getting lucky several times against a guy and winning >$500, that I got called a lucky bitch and stupid cunt.

I've also played lots of poker for fairly serious money, generally about 20% of the players are woman, in all the years I think I've seen <10 times where a man reacted to being beaten by woman by making sexist violent comments. In virtually every case the guys or the house stepped it and defended the woman, although in plenty of case the woman didn't need help.

Regarding Bill Cosby. Yes I do have some Neanderthal Facebook friends, but they are tiny minority. But look at the societal reaction to the guy, Cosby show re-runs which have been a staple on cable networks have disappeared. Hell even before the all the woman step forward Cosby already was attacked on twitter based on the old rape allegations. Now days nobody will go near the guy and the president goes after him.

Female Rangers, I have lots of military friends and cousin who was a Ranger, every single one of them have been supportive on Facebook and real life..

On college campus if anything there is an over reaction now days, within two days of the Rolling Stone article being published, the UVA president suspended all frat activities, and the frat in question. It wasn't until much latter after lots of evidence was in that story was fact that he reversed his situation.

I'm not discounting the experience of woman on this forum. When almost of you say that you have many friends who have been raped and many of you have been victims yourself I believe you. I just wonder if a forum for sex workers and their costumers is all that representative of society at large.

 

[MFCGod]

Anyway I guess if woman are reluctant to tell the truth in an anonymous survey than I have hard time seeing any kind of a solution.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

"Around one in twenty females (aged 16 to 59) reported being a victim of a most serious sexual offence since the age of 16. Extending this to include other sexual offences such as sexual threats, unwanted touching or indecent exposure, this increased to one in five females reporting being a victim since the age of 16."

On the topic of not reporting it

"Around 90 per cent of victims of the most serious sexual offences in the previous year knew the perpetrator, compared with less than half for other sexual offences."

Knowing the offender obviously can make things a lot more complicated to report, if it's a family member, partner

One of the most upsetting reasons I've heard for people not reporting these crimes is they feel like they did something to deserve it; I can't imagine what not only having that happen to you must feel like, but then blaming yourself on top. Unimaginably awful

 

[mynameisbob84]

To some degree, I don't understand it either. I think of myself as a strong person and certainly a person who can be loud and aggressive. But, I didn't even admit to myself I had been raped until years later. Maybe my brain thought it was protecting me? Anytime I thought of the incident I just considered it a fight. I had been injured. I had fought back. I just kind of omitted the part where rape happened for a few years. Coping mechanism? If he had robbed me in a fight instead of raping me, my brain would have let me yell that from the rooftops. That's a product of no one wanting to talk about rape. I'm definitely not proud of my contribution to rape culture by staying silent.

For what little it's worth, I don't think you've contributed to a rape culture at all. Some dood in another thread was questioning whether a rape culture truly exists and I think this kind of thing is proof is that it does. That a rape survivor would feel that the amount of time it took them to mentally process something that unfathomably difficult to process was a contributing factor to a rape culture, or that the onus was on them to talk about it in a timely fashion kinda highlights this cultural failing wherein the victim shoulders a greater burden than the rapist. I don't know what the fix is for that cultural shortcoming, or even if there is one, but I think if you're brave enough to talk about your experiences at all - be it five, ten, fifty years after the fact - you're a part of the solution and the furthest thing from being a part of the problem.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Ginger you and I have different friends. I played MMO's for many years probably 75% of the times as a female character (Druids, Mages woman everybody else men). Now I didn't make an effort to appear to be a woman in chat, but honestly the worst I heard was dumb girl a couple of times. I also played online poker, always as a woman. I made a conscious effort to appear female poker player in my 30s living in Hawaii I got more than a few guys wanting to visit me. Generally speaking woman and men play poker differently, so any edge I could get I took. If you think people get butt hurt losing a duel in WOW, its a lot worse when it's hundreds of real dollars they lose. I can say there was exactly one time after getting lucky several times against a guy and winning >$500, that I got called a lucky bitch and stupid cunt.

I've also played lots of poker for fairly serious money, generally about 20% of the players are woman, in all the years I think I've seen <10 where a man reacted to being beaten by woman by making sexist violent comments. In virtually every case the guys or the house stepped it and defended the woman, although in plenty of case the woman didn't need help.

Regarding Bill Cosby. Yes I do have some Neanderthal Facebook friends, but they are tiny minority. But look at the societal reaction to the guy, Cosby show re-runs which have been a staple on cable networks have disappeared. Hell even before the all the woman step forward Cosby already was attacked on twitter based on the old rape allegations. Now days nobody will go near the guy and the president goes after him.

Female Rangers, I have lots of military friends and cousin who was a Ranger, every single one of them have been supportive on Facebook and real life..

On college campus if anything there is an over reaction now days, within two days of the Rolling Stone article being published, the UVA president suspended all frat activities, and the frat in question. It wasn't until much letter after lots of evidence was in that story was fact that he reversed his situation.

I'm not discounting the experience of woman on this forum. When almost of you say that you have many friends who have been raped and many of you have been victims yourself I believe you. I just wonder if a forum for sex workers and their costumers is all that representative of society at large.

All I can tell at this point is that what you are describing here runs contrary to everything I've seen and heard over 20 or so years of paying attention to this kind of stuff. Now maybe my view is tainted by all the time I've spent around the criminal justice system. But what you describe also runs contrary to the experiences of most of the women I've known, research in the field and the voices we hear from every day who have dealt with this sort of thing.

As for the women on this forum not being a representative sample, ok, sex-related work does sometimes draw those who've experienced sexual trauma. I think it's pretty condescending to discount their experiences because of that. But among the women that I've known fairly well are college professors, musicians, real estate developers, journalists, cops, nurses, lawyers, soldiers/Marines/sailors/airmen, teachers and on and on. Many of them had exactly the same kinds of stories the women here are telling.

I'll give you one example out of a thousand that are floating around in my head. A friend of mine who invests in real estate was in Detroit in an upscale office building to work on a property deal. It was late in the day and the building had started to empty out. She was by herself on an elevator. Two men wearing expensive suits entered together. Both were considerably larger than her. One stood in front of her, one in back. Then, as the elevator started to move, the one in front stepped back, pushing her against the one behind her. Then they proceeded to grind her between them, ignoring her protests and slaps. When the elevator reached their floor, they walked off without a backward glance. She didn't report it to the cops...what exactly would she say? (ETA: But she sure as hell felt sexually violated.)

And that doesn't even touch the sex crimes cases that I saw professionally, especially when I worked in a college town. Most of those guys didn't even think they'd done anything wrong. "What, she wanted it, I could just tell."

Oh, and since you're a numbers guy, the Bureau of Justice Statistics decided two years ago commission the National Research Council to evaluate the accuracy of rape numbers in the National Crime Victimization Survey. Guess what? They found that the survey had significant methodology problems that result in under-reporting of crimes of sexual violence.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

All I can tell at this point is that what you are describing here runs contrary to everything I've seen and heard over 20 or so years of paying attention to this kind of stuff. Now maybe my view is tainted by all the time I've spent around the criminal justice system. But what you describe also runs contrary to the experiences of most of the women I've known, research in the field and the voices we hear from every day who have dealt with this sort of thing.

As for the women on this forum not being a representative sample, ok, sex-related work does sometimes draw those who've experienced sexual trauma. I think it's pretty condescending to discount their experiences because of that. But among the women that I've known fairly well are college professors, musicians, real estate developers, journalists, cops, nurses, lawyers, soldiers/Marines/sailors/airmen, teachers and on and on. Many of them had exactly the same kinds of stories the women here are telling.

Oh, and since you're a numbers guy, the Bureau of Justice Statistics decided two years ago commission the National Research Council to evaluate the accuracy of rape numbers in the National Crime Victimization Survey. Guess what? They found that the survey had significant methodology problems that result in under-reporting of crimes of sexual violence.

If you spend most of your career doing crime reporting than you spend an inordinate around criminals, in the same way that cops tend to see everybody as criminal. Crime victims run the gamut of the classes, although poor and minorities are over represented. My quick google shows that one in 40 American is a convicted felon so if you know a couple hundred people and more than a five are felons than yes I do think your view is tainted. My career was spent in high tech a nerdy and over educated group, and after that my volunteer activities have been associated with the military. So other than a few random druggies, and fair number of poker players involved in illegal gambling, I don't know criminals.

Anyway it's really easy for me to believe that lots of criminals have anger issues associated with woman.

The study was helpful thanks.

 

[SaffronBurke]

Rape victims don't report their abuse for numerous reasons:

- It was a friend/family member and reporting it would cause too much internal strife

- It was a coworker or boss, and they're worried that they'll be fired for reporting it

- They know what they'll have to go through to get the person locked up and don't think that they can handle it

- They know how difficult it is to even get the case to court and don't see the point of bothering

- They blame themselves or think that they're at fault somehow

- They're afraid that their abuser will make their life worse/do it again

- They don't realize that what happened was actually rape.
I had a friend in high school who was in a situation like this. An adult pressured her into having sex with him, and she's mentally disabled and has difficulty telling people "no", so she was incredibly torn up and horrified with herself for having sex, until one day at lunch when she was telling us about it and I told her that it was statutory rape and that she needed to talk to her parents and press charges.

I was in a situation like this myself. A friend of my mom's lived with us when I was 13, and he molested me almost the entire time. It took me two years to even realize that it was sexual abuse, because he fed me this story about how I was "the one" and blah blah blah. I wasn't quite aware at the time exactly what was wrong about the whole thing, but I hated it and hated him and was so relieved when he moved out. Once I finally realized what had happened, it took me months to tell my mom, because I was worried that she'd be mad at me for saying that sort of thing about a good friend of hers. Nope, she actually wished I'd said something sooner, because at that point, it was too late for the cops to do anything.



Rape victims will frequently fail to fight back or resist out of fear. Fear that it'll be worse or take longer if you resist. You just want it to be over, so you just let it happen. Others don't fight back because they freeze and don't know what to do.

 

[JickyJuly]

I believe you. I just wonder if a forum for sex workers and their costumers is all that representative of society at large.

I think if we're saying "Hey, how many of your close friends have confided in you that they've been victims?" the sex worker part isn't too much of an issue. None of my close, irl friends are sex workers. I've lived in a few places. I've gone to both a college and a technical school. I'd say the friends I have are pretty varied in career, socioeconomic background, education, troublemaking and race. Ultimately, I think you're a person who likes facts and figures and and all of that. A problem like this is probably a bit more frustrating for someone who likes numbers in order to conquer problems. I'm not sure how to conduct a study that would give more accurate numbers, but I'm certain that the numbers we've seen so far can't be trusted.

 

[Picnic]

Saffron made some really good points about making a report. I just wanted to add something really quick.

One of my friends was raped a couple years ago. She did go through with reporting the rape - and that was HELL for her. In the end, her rapist didn't even get charged. Can you even imagine how devastating that would be? Rape is traumatic enough. Like @SaffronBurke said, some people know the case might be incredibly difficult, or that it might go no where. Others might want to "move on" by acting like things are normal.

 

[MFCGod]

Who RT's this stuff, honestly

 

[xDollPartsx]

I think one of the problems is the term rape is such a loaded word that when added it to culture, it encourages anger instead of dialogue. Add to that the silliness of trying to discuss anything serious on twitter and you have the ingredients for a total twitter shit storm.

As professor Sommers points out most of the more sensational reports are based on flawed surveys and sensationalized interpretation.


By the standards many of the surveys use, I have been a victim of sexual assault 3 times. However, I don't seriously think that have a drunken sorority girl grab my balls several times and try to make out with me a party really makes me a crime victim, although I was pretty embarrassed.

The number of unambiguous rape is relatively small. This is the type of assault where you don't know the attacker at all other than perhaps saying hello to him once on the street. About 1% of American are victims of violent crime each year and rape is about .1% (higher for woman 18-30).

The problem is the more ambiguous rape cases. The classic case being you meet a guy a party you get drunk and/or high you start making out. You decide that you aren't comfortable having sex. You think you tell him to stop, but you are both pretty drunk so who know what actually is said. You wake in the morning and you are pretty sure you had sex but don't remember it. Could this be rape? Yes, is it always?, Certainly not. It is understandable why woman would fell victimized in this situation, but also feel reluctant to report it. As a side note the 150,000 person Crime Victimization survey asks people to describe what has happened to them in the last 6 months, so it capture these ambiguous situations. So when people say that rape is under reported crime it is true (37%). However not all of these reports are actual crimes, in the beyond a reasonable doubt level.

A third situation is you and your SO get into big fight. He kisses you. Last time you had angry sex it was fantastic. Tonight you are still pissed off and you say no and he doesn't stop. At some point you stop protesting and start participating. Is this rape? Again, it could be but I think a jury, would have a hard time convicting him, unless you pack up and leave the next day.

This to me falls in the coerced sex category, and interestingly enough the DOJ collects statistic on this but I have not seen it reported.


I agree that men coerce woman to have sex is a problem in society. If you believe that all three examples fall into rape culture than yes we live in in a rape culture.

But to me ISIS is a rape culture, and I guess my question is the US rape culture than watch this documentary and tell me how you we describe ISIS?

At this point everyone e else has stated all the things I've had in response except I do...and don't say much out here often...but hoky mother of fucking hell. That made me fucking throw up in my mouth. Gross. You're entitled to your opinion and your reasons for thinking so are probably justified to you. But fucking ew.

 

[Picnic]

Who RT's this stuff, honestly

She makes some great points. I especially love the last line.

 

[MFCGod]

She makes some great points. I especially love the last line.

That's crazy to me, to class every straight male as homophobic + removing the ability to disagree that they are

What is the purpose of this tweet other than to annoy the men who aren't homophobic? just to circle jerk over how awful men are?

It's a shame.

 

[Picnic]

That's crazy to me, to class every straight male as homophobic + removing the ability to disagree that they are

What is the purpose of this tweet other than to annoy the men who aren't homophobic? just to circle jerk over how awful men are?

It's a shame.

To vent about the misogynisitic, homophobic patriarchy that we live in.

She could have said "some men" but you know that darn 140 character limit.

 

[MFCGod]

To vent about the misogynisitic, homophobic patriarchy that we live in.

She could have said "some men" but you know that darn 140 character limit.

Stereotyping & hating on gay men because of their sexuality = bad

Stereotyping & hating on straight men for their sexuality = good

I see how that works :|

 

[Picnic]

Stereotyping & hating on gay men because of their sexuality = bad

Stereotyping & hating on straight men for their sexuality = good

I see how that works :|

It's why I very much liked the last line that she added. Yes, not all guys are like that, which is awesome - but the conversation is about the homophobic guys. So why bring up the ones who aren't?

 

[MFCGod]

It's why I very much liked the last line that she added. Yes, not all guys are like that, which is awesome - but the conversation is about the homophobic guys. So why bring up the ones who aren't?

Why would a homophobic person care if you say they don't like gay men? they will just say, yes, I don't

It's only going to bother the normal men

 

[Picnic]

In turn, maybe those "normal men" will be more inclined to speak out when their homophobic friends or peers are douche bags. "Hey Frank, stop being a homophobic ass hat! I don't want to be lumped in the same category as you!!"

 

[JickyJuly]

Who RT's this stuff, honestly

I actually feel like she's wrong for a different reason. The men/people who would react to seeing a same sex male couples rudely are the same ones (in my opinion) who would react rudely to same sex female couples. They might get off to lesbian porn in their alone time, but we all know that doesn't mean they have respect for the women on the screen. Lots of people watch porn and shame the people in it. Pretending that gay women don't face nonsense is "really disgusting" to use her own words.

 

[Teagan]

I actually feel like she's wrong for a different reason. The men/people who would react to seeing a same sex male couples rudely are the same ones (in my opinion) who would react rudely to same sex female couples. They might get off to lesbian porn in their alone time, but we all know that doesn't mean they have respect for the women on the screen. Lots of people watch porn and shame the people in it. Pretending that gay women don't face nonsense is "really disgusting" to use her own words.

I actually have heard a lot of guys loudly exclaim they are okay with lesbians but not gay men. The reasoning varies but a lot of it has been said along with they like watching the girls so it's cool. She has a point for sure. It's a double standard hypocrisy. I agree it's not like the men who feel that way respect lesbians or those in porn but that's a different point altogether to me. Being okay with one sex being gay and not the other just cause you like to see and imagine one over the other is messed up. No ones forcing you to watch either.

 

[fandango]

To vent about the misogynisitic, homophobic patriarchy that we live in.

She could have said "some men" but you know that darn 140 character limit.

No her exact words were "straight men". This implies she views every straight guy as some kind of neanderthal, homophobe who is only OK with lesbians because he thinks they're hot and is therefore automatically anti-gay men too. I'm not going to pretend I don't know people who are homophobes and maybe its different where you're from but they are definitley not the majority of people.

Mass generalisations like this dont help anyone in any situation, and I agree with MFCgod it sucks to feel like your automatically pre-judged as some kind of asshole just because you're a straight guy and I know it doesnt even come close to what you go through as lesbians but if you know how it feels then why do it to someone else?

 

[JickyJuly]

I actually have heard a lot of guys loudly exclaim they are okay with lesbians but not gay men. The reasoning varies but a lot of it has been said along with they like watching the girls so it's cool. She has a point for sure. It's a double standard hypocrisy. I agree it's not like the men who feel that way respect lesbians or those in porn but that's a different point altogether to me. Being okay with one sex being gay and not the other just cause you like to see and imagine one over the other is messed up. No ones forcing you to watch either.

I kind of get it, but if they're okay with it because it turns them on, that's not real acceptance. They're just boiling down those women in the same objectifying, how does this serve me way. Watching gay men grosses me out so yuck / watching lesbians turns me on so yum are kind of the same to me. In both cases, the couples aren't being looked at as equals. So, I don't think it is hypocrisy or even a double standard. It's equally rude and dismissive. I just don't think it makes sense for this girl to equate getting a boner with acceptance. Someone who comments negatively on other peoples' sexual orientation is going to across the board be an asshole to anyone who isn't into what they are personally into or can't be what they are into.

 

[Teagan]

I kind of get it, but if they're okay with it because it turns them on, that's not real acceptance. They're just boiling down those women in the same objectifying, how does this serve me way. Watching gay men grosses me out so yuck / watching lesbians turns me on so yum are kind of the same to me. In both cases, the couples aren't being looked at as equals. So, I don't think it is hypocrisy or even a double standard. It's equally rude and dismissive. I just don't think it makes sense for this girl to equate getting a boner with acceptance. Someone who comments negatively on other peoples' sexual orientation is going to across the board be an asshole to anyone who isn't into what they are personally into or can't be what they are into.

I dont think she was talking about actual full acceptance or respect though. Just that some guys are cool with it when it's girls but speak out against it when it's men. That is a double standard in that case. Based only on the fact that one makes their willy move and another does not. Just my take on it though and what i've heard from a lot of guys.