Pursuing a claim against a former model

[Relkinet]

Hi.

I'd like to ask the community's advice regarding a difficult issue I'm dealing with.

A longtime model of whom I'd been a regular customer recently quit camming. While it was disappointing to see her go, the difficulty stems from the fact that she decided to collect advance payments from a number of her customers prior to disappearing. I can't speak for the others, but I've effectively been scammed out of a little over a thousand dollars. If possible, I'd like to get it back.

Normally, it's difficult to pursue claims against scammers; you don't usually have the other party's identity, can't get it easily, and would have to identify yourself to the scammer in the process. In my case, I already have a fair amount of information about the model that she shared while we were on relatively friendly terms; while we never explicitly shared our identities, I think there's a good chance that I can track her down. The question is, should I?

On the one hand, there's good reason that the community stresses the importance of protecting models' privacy; there are lots of safety and social issues at risk. On the other hand, camming is ultimately a form of business and business transactions naturally create a measure of liability for both parties to them. Insofar as there's no way to take legal action against someone without his or her identity, would intentional misconduct on a model's part would waive the presumption towards privacy? If not, is there a better way to go about pursuing this?

 

[Phoenix4987]

In what ways were the advance payments made? Was there an agreement of services for x amt? If done through say MFC tips, there may be a way for those tokens to be refunded. Now, if you did it through something like Western Union, that may be a different story...

 

[Serenity_Tam]

MFC typically doesn't refund tips as they are seen as a gift or payment for something occuring on the site at that time @Phoenix4987 so it's probs unlikely that will happen. At least .... that was according to their TOS a few years ago.

I am just confused that thousands of dollars was spent on something you didn't get? Like ... what possibly could you have spend thousands on?

Can you perhaps email her camming email? I still check mine occasionally even though I don't vanilla cam anymore in case a familiar good reg needs a resend on a video or something silly. Or they want to send me a present lol.

Tracking her down will do no good, if her intention was to scam you then finding her isn't going to make a difference. Like... what would you even do? "Hey brittany! I saw your tits and I want 1k back!" It will just have made you violate her privacy and look like you're in a position to extort her. There is no good reason to make a cam girl feel threatened. Tracking a woman down will always be threatening.

 

[Phoenix4987]

@Serenity_Tam

Token refunds
We are sometimes able to issue token refunds for:

• Technical problems (the site breaks and takes your tokens.)
• Unsatisfactory private shows (please end the show as soon as possible.)

We are NOT able to issue token refunds for:

• Tips (Tips are gifts and cannot be reversed, just like in real life.)
• Group shows and spy shows (You can leave this type of show any time.)

The clause is still there. For some reason I was under the impression that if you discussed a tip for some service which wasn't provided that you could get a refund. But my mistake.

OP, not sure what you can do but bite the bullet on this and learn a valuable lesson. You're definitely not alone, just have to be careful with whom you conduct business with. I think even if you had her identity and tried to subpoena the accused, it probably wouldn't work. A good lawyer could paint you as a disgruntled stalker and her a victimized sex worker who wants to leave the profession because its causing undue emotional stress or some bullshit like that. The justice scales aren't exactly in your favor even if ethics is I'm afraid.

 

[Snowie1969]

It does depend on how much you have on record. If the dealings have been made in mail or PM, you have a stronger negotiating position than if she said things in chat and no record is available.

Other than that: Good luck.

 

[Mikey_P]

You were the fish fry...

 

[FluffyGalore]

Hi.

I'd like to ask the community's advice regarding a difficult issue I'm dealing with.

A longtime model of whom I'd been a regular customer recently quit camming. While it was disappointing to see her go, the difficulty stems from the fact that she decided to collect advance payments from a number of her customers prior to disappearing. I can't speak for the others, but I've effectively been scammed out of a little over a thousand dollars. If possible, I'd like to get it back.

Normally, it's difficult to pursue claims against scammers; you don't usually have the other party's identity, can't get it easily, and would have to identify yourself to the scammer in the process. In my case, I already have a fair amount of information about the model that she shared while we were on relatively friendly terms; while we never explicitly shared our identities, I think there's a good chance that I can track her down. The question is, should I?

On the one hand, there's good reason that the community stresses the importance of protecting models' privacy; there are lots of safety and social issues at risk. On the other hand, camming is ultimately a form of business and business transactions naturally create a measure of liability for both parties to them. Insofar as there's no way to take legal action against someone without his or her identity, would intentional misconduct on a model's part would waive the presumption towards privacy? If not, is there a better way to go about pursuing this?

If you don't mind me asking what exactly where the payments for?

 

[Mila_]

Hi.

I'd like to ask the community's advice regarding a difficult issue I'm dealing with.

A longtime model of whom I'd been a regular customer recently quit camming. While it was disappointing to see her go, the difficulty stems from the fact that she decided to collect advance payments from a number of her customers prior to disappearing. I can't speak for the others, but I've effectively been scammed out of a little over a thousand dollars. If possible, I'd like to get it back.

Normally, it's difficult to pursue claims against scammers; you don't usually have the other party's identity, can't get it easily, and would have to identify yourself to the scammer in the process. In my case, I already have a fair amount of information about the model that she shared while we were on relatively friendly terms; while we never explicitly shared our identities, I think there's a good chance that I can track her down. The question is, should I?

On the one hand, there's good reason that the community stresses the importance of protecting models' privacy; there are lots of safety and social issues at risk. On the other hand, camming is ultimately a form of business and business transactions naturally create a measure of liability for both parties to them. Insofar as there's no way to take legal action against someone without his or her identity, would intentional misconduct on a model's part would waive the presumption towards privacy? If not, is there a better way to go about pursuing this?

I am really sorry that you got scammed, you shouldn't be going through this.

Here is how I would personally handle it, and please keep in mind that I don't speak for the camgirl community, just for my own self.

First I would rule out that this was a mistake or an oversight on the part of the model. How long since you tipped and she retired? Have you tried to contact her to see what is going on? Sometimes I have sent stuff to the wrong email address because of a typo or something. Make sure it isn't a mistake.

If you are sure that this was done on purpose and you paid in tokens then I would first try to contact MFC. Like @Serenity_Tam said, they have no obligation to give you a refund since it was a tip, but if you send them all the evidence: PMs, MFC mail, chatroom archives, and ask them nicely maybe they will give you one.

If MFC doesnt give you a refund and this sum of money is important enough for you to go through a lot of hassle and drama, then I would try to find the model in order to file a lawsuit against her in a small claims court. As long as you do it discreetly and you don't involve other customers of hers, etc, I don't see why you should "suck it up". If she didn't want people to go after her, perhaps she should think twice about scamming people. Just really make sure this wasn't a mistake and it was done with bad intentions before you do anything like this.

 

[OldHippy]

Sorry to hear that you feel like you got scammed. Personally I would let it go, no good will come of trying to find this girl and then confronting here. Petty revenge and getting even rarely give any real and lasting satisfactions, let karma take care of here.

I guess my general view with any such transactions is to treat them as a gift, so if I do get something in return I am pleasantly surprised and if I get nothing it's no big deal.

 

[BobbyB]

You lost 1000 $ by trusting the wrong woman ?

That is pretty cheap, consider yourself lucky.
Plenty of guys married the wrong woman and lose far more.
Learn and improve.....

 

[Mikey_P]

Accept it as a lesson learned from an unexpected teacher.

Or confront her in the grocery store and march her to the ATM! You would probably be arrested for robbery and be re-victimized twice. I don't think the type of person who would let a model rip them off is the type of person who would know how to get their money back. Let it go...

Oh if you used a credit card, try to do a cashback. How long ago was this?

 

[AmberCutie]

Oh if you used a credit card, try to do a cashback. How long ago was this?

If you're referring to a chargeback, and it was tokens he spent on her, he'll get banned from MFC for doing that.

 

[yummybrownfox]

If you're referring to a chargeback, and it was tokens he spent on her, he'll get banned from MFC for doing that.

Yup, this is true. The one time I got a chargeback on MFC (1,000 tokens), they had banned the member's account.

 

[Mikey_P]

If you're referring to a chargeback, and it was tokens he spent on her, he'll get banned from MFC for doing that.

Just use another card or paypal and get a new account after the chargeback.

 

[AmberCutie]

Just use another card or paypal and get a new account after the chargeback.

If OP actually enjoys the cam site he visits, I would not ever recommend bypassing their security measures like that.

Anyway, I have a feeling if there is evidence in chat logs and such that the girl owed him something paid for with tokens, MFC would refund him at least some tokens, depending on how he approaches them. While their "refund policy" states that tips are gifts, I think they do take outright scams seriously:

 

[Phoenix4987]

There it is! I thought I remembered something of the sorts. Amber you so smaaaaarrrttttt

 

[Relkinet]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

I was referring to taking legal action against the former model rather than trying to get a refund from the camsite. She's already erased her web presence, so I can't contact her online, but the contact we had prior to her disappearance makes me believe that this was intentional. The payments were for a combination of private time and content pre-orders.

While many people may find themselves unwilling victims of scams, I don't believe that anyone should be obligated to play a willing victim when they have the opportunity not to. I have the means to pursue a claim against her and I'm confident in the strength of my position, so I'm not inclined to simply walk away. My concern is that there's a bit of a moral hazard with regards to the harm that pursuing my claim would risk causing her relative to the harm that she has inflicted on me.


From my point of view, the model scammed me out of a thousand dollars:

Me
-$1000
Model
+$1000


I'm considering taking legal action to reverse that:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000


You can't take legal action against someone without their identity, so I'd need to track her down. From her point of view, that may look more like being tracked down by a disgruntled stalker:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000
-stalker scare


If the matter proceeds to trial, there's a risk that we'll have to discuss her work, which could lead to her being publicly exposed:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000
-stalker scare
-risk of public exposure


I do believe that she deserves to lose the money and that I deserve to get it back, but I'm worried that the stalker scare and risk of exposure go far beyond anything that she's done to me. Do you believe that those risks are justified despite the disproportionate harm they might cause because she's responsible for instigating the dispute? Is there anything that I can do to mitigate them?

It's difficult to tell how serious a scare I might give her by tracking her down. Aside from being polite and reasonable when I make contact, is there anything I could to do to make it less threatening?

To some extent, I feel that the risk of public exposure is largely her choice, as it only comes up if she chooses to fight my claim in court. However, from her point of view, that may feel more like extortion. I don't know if there's much I can do about that beyond offering to try to avoid direct references to sex work if she agrees to do the same.

 

[Mikey_P]

If you're referring to a chargeback, and it was tokens he spent on her, he'll get banned from MFC for doing that.

Yeah a chargeback. If he wants his money forget the rules.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I was referring to taking legal action against the former model rather than trying to get a refund from the camsite.

Purely from a legal standpoint here, did you actually give her money (not tokens, MONEY) directly? Or did you give the cam site money, and then you tipped her?

Because if you paid the camsite, then you have no legal recourse against her. It will just get tossed out since you sued the wrong party. The camsite is the one who you had financial dealings with. And since they clearly stipulate all tokens given are gifts I don't think you have much of a case against them either. They might refund your money if you show them your proof of being scammed. But in a court of law I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on with either party.

 

[JustWantToSeeThePictures]

I don't know about the morality of it all, but I think your math is off. If you paid her in $1,000 of the site's currency, then she did not get $1,000. There are also court fees involved, and if either or both of you hire lawyers, then you will probably end up with some very different numbers, plus all of the time this will take. I don't think you are getting your money back, and the first thing I would do is what others have said; contact the site and see if they will work with you.

If you are looking for the appropriate amount of revenge, then I would say maybe err on the side of letting it go.

*I turned on a view-my-cam feature once, so I feel qualified to post in this section. Also, everyone else is doing it.

 

[Ambers Troll]

Assuming it is tokens. I would suggest an appeal to the site to return the tokens to your account and to not pay her, but you only have days to do this.

Other than this there will not be much recourse @JerryBoBerry is spot on in his advice.

Some sites used to be awesome, charging back on even a hint of scamming. Sadly things have changed for members, so always be prepared to lose your money every single time you spend. This goes for every single model; even those you have trusted for years.
Scammers are still pretty rare as it is a very short term strategy. Next time your instinct will serve you better, and you will know more of the signs of a scammer.

$1000 for a spend on a model is very good sum, the site and other models won't want to lose someone so generous in spending on a good time. Hopefully an appeal to the site will see some action taken.

Additionally: Keep in mind for tokens the site took half of this money.

 

[BobbyB]

OK, you want to bring the lady to court to recoup you 1000 $.

What about the time and money to do so, do you possible need to hire and pay a lawyer for this ?

What kind of proof do you have ?

Maybe you get painted in court by the girl as a sick pevert trying to exploid a poor camgirl, the newspapers will love it.......

But up to you...

 

[Snowie1969]

And given the hourly rates of lawyers,.. you might end up with nothing after paying yours..

 

[Mila_]

I was referring to taking legal action against the former model rather than trying to get a refund from the camsite. She's already erased her web presence, so I can't contact her online, but the contact we had prior to her disappearance makes me believe that this was intentional. The payments were for a combination of private time and content pre-orders.

While many people may find themselves unwilling victims of scams, I don't believe that anyone should be obligated to play a willing victim when they have the opportunity not to. I have the means to pursue a claim against her and I'm confident in the strength of my position, so I'm not inclined to simply walk away. My concern is that there's a bit of a moral hazard with regards to the harm that pursuing my claim would risk causing her relative to the harm that she has inflicted on me.


From my point of view, the model scammed me out of a thousand dollars:

Me
-$1000
Model
+$1000


I'm considering taking legal action to reverse that:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000


You can't take legal action against someone without their identity, so I'd need to track her down. From her point of view, that may look more like being tracked down by a disgruntled stalker:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000
-stalker scare


If the matter proceeds to trial, there's a risk that we'll have to discuss her work, which could lead to her being publicly exposed:

Me
+$1000
Model
-$1000
-stalker scare
-risk of public exposure


I do believe that she deserves to lose the money and that I deserve to get it back, but I'm worried that the stalker scare and risk of exposure go far beyond anything that she's done to me. Do you believe that those risks are justified despite the disproportionate harm they might cause because she's responsible for instigating the dispute? Is there anything that I can do to mitigate them?

It's difficult to tell how serious a scare I might give her by tracking her down. Aside from being polite and reasonable when I make contact, is there anything I could to do to make it less threatening?

To some extent, I feel that the risk of public exposure is largely her choice, as it only comes up if she chooses to fight my claim in court. However, from her point of view, that may feel more like extortion. I don't know if there's much I can do about that beyond offering to try to avoid direct references to sex work if she agrees to do the same.

If what you want is your money back why do you refuse to contact the site? We told you this would be the quickest, easiest, and risk-free way to get your money. So refusing to do it is a big fat red flag. Something tells me your goal has little to do with money.

You also didn't contact her after she retired and you didn't disclose how long ago you tipped her. You are assuming her intention was to scam you out of your money, but you do not know what her intention was since you didn't talk to her again. She could have gotten your email wrong, or tried to contact you unsuccessfully. It is definitely NOT OKAY to track her down and take her to court out of the blue like this.

Evidence indicates that you are probably not a very nice human.

 

[schlmoe]

Let it go, man. Just let it go. A thousand dollars *IS A LOT OF MONEY*. But this thousand dollars could very well be the best money you ever spent. In my opinion, you have already received over a thousand dollars in very good advice here. Don't believe me? Then go book some sessions with a therapist to discuss these issues. My bet is you will spend *more* than a thousand dollars *and* get pretty much the same advice as you have received here.

Taking it on to get her back in court, etc. is going to cost you more in time (yours) and money (lawyer's time) than you lost...with no guarantee that you will recoup anything. Then there is the personal cost to you. If you need that explained, then you need that therapist more than you need a lawyer. That whole "I can track her down" thing makes you sound like a basement dweller. Even if you are not one, if you go down this path, there's a good chance you will become one. And then where will you be in 5 or 10 years. That's the personal cost.

Every (or almost every) cam site patron has been scammed at least once (or so they say). From "she took my tokens and I don't git to see her tittays" all the way to "I sent her money for her dog's operation, now I'm banned:. You could do a search here and I'd bet there are at least a hundred threads. The smart patrons may be pissed and rant, but end up chalking it up as part of the "cost of entertainment", adjust their viewing habits (vis-à-vis a particular model or site), and move on. The dumb ones don't let it go and end up in the lounge (small joke).

Now, again, $1000 is a lot of money. It's not right for anybody to take your money. There is no justification for it. Ever. But you can use this experience to become a wiser person. Pretty cheap lesson in the long run.

tl;dr If you go through with this tracking down & suing business, you'll become a bitter prick. You will never get satisfaction, even if you win. And if this gets to a court case, *everyone* will know that you are a bitter prick (most court records are in the public domain). Let it go, man. Let it go.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

From my point of view, the model scammed me out of a thousand dollars:

Okay, just have to ask. How do you get scammed out of a thousand dollars for something she didn't deliver?

Did you order a custom video, not get it, then order another and another and another? Were you buying a used car from her? Were you setting up an in person date or sex hookup? I'm just trying to picture if this was some fantastic single item you paid a thousand dollars for, or a series of smaller ones that you never got any of the items but just kept getting sucked into spending more anyway.

 

[Rosy]

If its tokens, go through MFC. If it isn't you are shit out of luck. Being banned from MFC may be worth getting your money back to you.

Refusing to go through the proper authorities and going straight to "tracking her down" is disturbing and screams stalker to me.

 

[Serenity_Tam]

I wonder if OP is just mad she quit? Like ... he spent 1k over the course of a few months but expected her to be around longer sooo he feels scammed she quit camming before he decided he wanted to move on? Because TBH this is sounding cray cray.

 

[Guy]

If its tokens, go through MFC. If it isn't you are shit out of luck. Being banned from MFC may be worth getting your money back to you.

Refusing to go through the proper authorities and going straight to "tracking her down" is disturbing and screams stalker to me.

If you are banned from MFC for doing a chargeback you will also be banned from Epoch and CCbill. Which means you won't be able to join most camsites.

 

[Snowie1969]

I wonder if OP is just mad she quit? Like ... he spent 1k over the course of a few months but expected her to be around longer sooo he feels scammed she quit camming before he decided he wanted to move on? Because TBH this is sounding cray cray.

We may never know.. I too have spent tokens on models that were gone quickly.. that happens.. No need to get bitter over that. Assume the model is now doing something different.. she may be more happy (or not), have a family, a 'normal' job.. whatever.