Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[justjoinedtopost]

...Women can do all sorts of awful things, I don't really understand what listing a bunch of nasty things some women have done has to do with anything.

Just things that I reminisced about after watching the documentary. Things I remembered as I pondered the implications of dwelling amongst creatures who are willing to associate looking at someone, or hugging a cranky child, as things that ought be part of the rape discussion. Nothing more.

Just pondering the culture I have personally witnessed, the one I have lived in, and how much feminist dialogue has shaped my view of it.

The case you mentioned where the partner remarries and that man has a decent wage. She is still looking after the previous partners children. This is a pretty big commitment, why should her new partner pay for his childcare? Why should her change in circumstances exempt him? And if you have a custody agreement then legally she cannot stop the other parent from seeing the children without very good cause.

That story, the point was not the support issue. The woman used the support pretty much just to screw with him. He was paying the court ordered amount. She came to him personally, and said "I want more" (had little to do with money, she was just a real head case who got off on screwing with him). She kept the daughter from him without very good cause, then called the police on him (and his partner) just to fuck with him when he went to the authorities. Believe me, she was deranged.

No idea why you feel the need to speak up for her, but truck on girl...

This is pretty much why the MRA guys aren't taken seriously, they don't generally petition for much change, it often seems to be something they use to counter issues women bring up, or just to have a moan and bitch about women.

That is one effect this whole conversation has had on me. I have always just written the whole MRA thing off as a bunch of deranged losers. Pretty much associated it with the more insane voices I have heard from that camp.

I have also pretty much accepted feminist positions without question, this in spite of the more insane voices I have known to exist in that camp for decades.

Now I am asking myself, why is this?

The situations I'm talking about is when the guy approaching you has very clear ideas of sex, his motive is clear, when you act uncomfortable they completely ignore it and carry on. They might be pushy with questions, trying to engage you in a way that you would have to be very rude to end the conversation. They often stand too close in your personal space, even move to touch you. When you walk away they might follow you. If you ignore them they don't accept it. The delivery driver problem is a frustrating one, it's being forced to stand in the cold outside my house in my pjs having already paid for my food, the driver doing everything he can to keep questioning you and not giving you the food. You are forced to be there until he passes it to you. You're clearly trying to get it and he keeps it out of reach. He sounds perfectly friendly, except I am clearly not wanting to talk.

The reason I believe it's connected is because I am being forced to engage, often being made to feel uncomfortable and unsafe. The man doing this tends to be aware that the girl is not engaging or interested but does not care. He believes he can win her over or that he has the right to communicate with her and perve on her. These men often feel it's ok to touch the girl, they seem to get a kick out of it. This in many ways is not dissimilar to what is thought to be the motivations for rape. And it is very normal in culture, often seen as not being that bad. That people do not connect it with rape is a reason why it's part of rape culture, it's a common situation where women are harassed for sexual reasons and made to feel unsafe. Though no sex happens in these situations the motivation is still there. This isn't something these men do to other men.

I think you may be trivializing rape here. I think you also may be amplifying the perceived harm of pushy guys. Idk what to say...maybe you should start a crisis center for women who feel frustrated after running into creeps in their day-to-day interactions?

Of course, I have no idea what your area is like; my local culture is pretty conservative (politically anyways). Over the last couple of days been striking up conversations with young women to see if maybe I am just blind to another reality here. Only talked with four so far, but doesn't seem to be quite as big of a problem in my area.

 

[JickyJuly]

This could sound snarky, if you read it in the wrong tone. So, try to read it as serious instead of attitude.

I've been thinking about the ways rape culture affects my parenting. Even though I think it is unfair and sad that women/girls need to protect themselves, I plan to be open with my daughters about things and do as many things as I can to help them stay safe. I do not have a son to contrast. I am wondering, those of you believe false rape claims are rampant, what will you do to protect your sons?

Will you ask them not to drink in mixed company as not to be taken advantage of? Will you ask them to use the buddy system so they aren't vulnerable? Will you teach them laws so that they can minimize the danger that a dishonest poses? Will you teach them to dress and act in a way that doesn't make the lies a woman might smear them with easier to believe? Will you encourage them to get to know and maybe even love a girl before becoming intimate with her? Will you suggest that he step in if he sees a friend possibly being taken advantage of? Do you dread the day you have to tell your son that not all women are honest and caring like his mother?

 

[Ambers Troll]

Feeling unsafe of 'creeped' out by someone is the concern of the person feeling it, not the one that a perceived threat comes from. Without some form of action from this perceived threat you have no right to judge their intent, even if correct about it in some way.
Women need to be aware that they don't have exclusivity to fear and being creeped out by other people. There is a constant background of fear and insecurity in men, and this has been added to in the last 70 years or so. You can hear male fear on any rap album; hence it's popularity, most of what feminists call rape culture is male fear culture in fact.

Scared people do unpredictable, creepy, and dangerous things. That fear is constantly on their mind and they paint every interaction with it. If you are arrogant enough to think that every man wants to sleep with you, scared enough to imagine every man intent on raping you, you will see it everywhere. How do you think a man looking at you will react to your fear? ... very uncomfortably, perhaps with some anger, perhaps it will cross his mind that she imagines him raping her, now you are both thinking of it? He may be the one thinking it at the next women he sees, creeping her out by it.

Each of these experiences for that man does cause him harm as well. He may believe himself to be that creep. He may even eventually act out on that in some way. You see the danger?
Does he perceive all women as thinking this way, is this how all women think of sex as a some violation fantasy?.. feminists seem to confirm this. If he is a man should he be thinking this way? We all know of women who seem to like dating the strongest most violent of us? If I am not one of these guys will I remain alone, why bother if all I will be is friend-zoned? Perhaps just once I may want to try being that guy?

In certain situations a rape culture is a valid concern. I think an awareness of the threat and not being a part of spreading it is where our attention should be focused. Women need to manage their concerns to where it may be physically expressed, and we as men need to fight our insecurities and aggressive thoughts towards the women who trigger them; to give women a chance. I believe this is particularly important to inexperienced men in groups, they seem more vulnerable to insecurity.

For feminism, they should focus on the part women can play and keep the discussion to things they can change. Women have much more work they can do on themselves, and as to why so many boys (assuming an increasing rape culture) grow up into men that hate women.
One thing women could do for instance is to include more of those women who are very comfortable with men. They are usually pushed out of female groups, which I think is a pity for the female group. Women must stop attacking other women who get along well with men and start admiring them for the people they are. They are an important part of increasing the security for all women, and a wonderful treat for us men.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I think @HiGirlsRHot mentioned that you don't see the delivery driver trying to chat up the girls, or strangers making compliments on the street as a part of rape culture. It is the way it is done. For example I have had it a few times, usually with an older gentleman when they've come up to me in the most polite way and have said "I am sorry but I had to say, you are the most beautiful girl I have ever seen". They say it at an appropriate distance with a friendly smile and walk off on their way. This is a compliment. It has no strings, no ulterior motive, they were just saying something lovely and moving on. This is nothing to do with rape culture.
The situations I'm talking about is when the guy approaching you has very clear ideas of sex, his motive is clear, when you act uncomfortable they completely ignore it and carry on. They might be pushy with questions, trying to engage you in a way that you would have to be very rude to end the conversation. They often stand too close in your personal space, even move to touch you. When you walk away they might follow you. If you ignore them they don't accept it. The delivery driver problem is a frustrating one, it's being forced to stand in the cold outside my house in my pjs having already paid for my food, the driver doing everything he can to keep questioning you and not giving you the food. You are forced to be there until he passes it to you. You're clearly trying to get it and he keeps it out of reach. He sounds perfectly friendly, except I am clearly not wanting to talk.

The reason I believe it's connected is because I am being forced to engage, often being made to feel uncomfortable and unsafe. The man doing this tends to be aware that the girl is not engaging or interested but does not care. He believes he can win her over or that he has the right to communicate with her and perve on her. These men often feel it's ok to touch the girl, they seem to get a kick out of it. This in many ways is not dissimilar to what is thought to be the motivations for rape. And it is very normal in culture, often seen as not being that bad. That people do not connect it with rape is a reason why it's part of rape culture, it's a common situation where women are harassed for sexual reasons and made to feel unsafe. Though no sex happens in these situations the motivation is still there. This isn't something these men do to other men.

Thanks for the clarification Izzy, that makes sense and I can see your point. (Also I've blissfully forgotten about cold.)
This brings me to another threadjack. The emphasis of changing men's behavior, but not asking women to change theirs.

Almost all the focus on rape culture is on getting men to change their behavior. Now let me stipulate the following, men in the past by and largely treated woman like shit, many still do, awful behavior is still widely tolerated, I'm far from perfect on this front, the world would be kinder and gentler place if men acted more like women.

Still, since the rise of feminism in the 60s and 70s we've seen a huge amount of progress. Stuff that was common in the 60s (think Mad Men) is universally condemned even by old guys in their 70s that used do to it themselves Rapes are way down. Women in virtually all professions from lawyers to vets are commonplace, and even women in media are often portrayed as kick-ass types, who are smarter and more competent than men.

School has turned into female dominated institutions. Little boys are taught to sit quietly at the desks and punished if they don't. Middle age boys are taught how important it is to play well with other share feeling and not hurt feelings. By the time you hit college, there are safe space, classes in white male privilege, and weird rules for having sex. As a result girls to better than boys at all levels of education. Now have more college degrees than men, and with the ratio of girls to boys being 60/40 at many colleges the situation is getting more imbalanced every day.

The one thing that hasn't changed is men are still expected to do virtually all pursuing in a relationship. So much of the reason I commented on your delivery guy story is empathy. He sees this pretty girl and want to get to know her and yes hopefully have sex with her. What the hell exactly are his options? He'll die a lonely virgin if waits for female delivery girls to ask him out, same thing is true for waitresses, female doctors, nurse, or girls in his office. I understand that he is being stupid and clueless, but as the terrific Cracked article said, Harrison Ford didn't get laid in all the movies by taking "no I'm not interested in you" for an answer.While I know that Isabella has a strong personality and has asked guys, out. I bet that not many models on here have asked more than 10 guys out in their lives.(Random hookups don't count).

One of the promises of 1st wave feminism is that woman would start doing the pursuing. It just hasn't seemed to happen. I think I know the reason, getting the courage to ask somebody out is hard, getting rejected kindly is painful, and being laughed at is soul-crushing. The whole pursuing business for many of us guys is no fun. Hell even the guys who were good at it, and enjoyed the game, got tired of it by the time the were in their late 20s.. So woman don't do because they don't have to. If a pretty girl wants to meet somebody she puts on cute outfit, goes to a bar, smile when an acceptable guy looks at her and by the night she'll have had at least 1/2 dozen guy approaches her. Maybe once in a blue moon, she'll suggest to a guy lets go someplace else and he'll reject her.

Actually, woman, especially attractive ones don't even need, to leave their house. Spend a few minutes to create a profile, on Match, OkCupid, or Tinder and upload some pictures. You'll be overloaded with messages. @caireen had a contest in her room. She created OkCupid profile, with everyday pictures, and we bet on how many messages she'd get. She ended up with over 30 in either an hour or 1/2 hour. Which is what I got in a year match.com. Good looking woman get so many messages, that's considered acceptable to simply ignore them. (At least in person the girl had to come up with sorry I need to "laundry every day for the next two weeks execuse") The male-female imbalance is so lopsided that the OkCupid blog reported this amazing fact.

A guy rated in the top 20% in looks sending a message to a woman rated in the bottom 20% in looks was less likely to get a response from that girl, than a bottom 20% girl sending a message to a top 20% guy was to get a response from the guy. Think of that the ugliest girls were pickier than the best looking guys! The odds of a hot girl responding to an ugly guy were like winning the lottery. I think one of the reasons MFC/camsite are so popular it is one of the few ways that average or below average guy can get any type of response from the elusive "hot chicks".

Now, this may not have anything to do with Rape culture but I think it is related to the backlash against the term being applied widely.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I am wondering, those of you believe false rape claims are rampant, what will you do to protect your sons?

Will you ask them not to drink in mixed company as not to be taken advantage of? Will you ask them to use the buddy system so they aren't vulnerable? Will you teach them laws so that they can minimize the danger that a dishonest poses? Will you teach them to dress and act in a way that doesn't make the lies a woman might smear them with easier to believe? Will you encourage them to get to know and maybe even love a girl before becoming intimate with her? Will you suggest that he step in if he sees a friend possibly being taken advantage of? Do you dread the day you have to tell your son that not all women are honest and caring like his mother?

I don't see any way you could protect them. Sort of like trying to protect them from getting railroaded for murder. And maybe things are changing in clear cut cases, who knows. Not from my area, but...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/07/police-arrest-woman-over-redcar-abduction-and-claim
Might be nice to have a "crying rape" charge on the books though, instead of just "wasting police time".

I don't know how rampant it is overall, but it is part of the discussion imo. All the suggestions you listed, seems like the sort of things (some might be good ideas for additional reasons) you teach kids, then the minute they are mid-teens and your back is turned they ignore.

But one "Do you dread the day you have to tell your son that not all women are honest and caring like his mother?" seems prudent. Plenty of reasons to teach them there are some evil women out there, no reason to dread that.

Potiphar's wife. Jezebel. The witch in fairy tales. Examples already in literature.

No real reason I can think of to teach them all women are honest and caring in the first place.

 

[JickyJuly]

Each of these experiences for that man does cause him harm as well. He may believe himself to be that creep. He may even eventually act out on that in some way. You see the danger?
Does he perceive all women as thinking this way, is this how all women think of sex as a some violation fantasy?.. feminists seem to confirm this. If he is a man should he be thinking this way? We all know of women who seem to like dating the strongest most violent of us? If I am not one of these guys will I remain alone, why bother if all I will be is friend-zoned? Perhaps just once I may want to try being that guy?

I disagree with this on all points and all levels. There are women who take advantage of young boys. There are women that don't take no for an answer and stalk dudes out once they've been rejected. There are women who lie about sex or use sex against men. I can understand that and discuss it without sympathizing with them or thinking of myself as that sort of woman. The idea that a man shouldn't bother with a woman if he's going to be "friend-zoned" also assumes there is no worth in the friendship of a woman. So, if he feels that way, no he should not bother. A man who doesn't value women past sex should just stick with hanging out with men and accept that it is his own bias and not try to create other reasons.

 

[Val Vega]

School has turned into female dominated institutions. Little boys are taught to sit quietly at the desks and punished if they don't. Middle age boys are taught how important it is to play well with other share feeling and not hurt feelings. By the time you hit college, there are safe space, classes in white male privilege, and weird rules for having sex. As a result girls to better than boys at all levels of education. Now have more college degrees than men, and with the ratio of girls to boys being 60/40 at many colleges the situation is getting more imbalanced every day.

And what's wrong with most of that? Boys should be taught to play well with others and to try not to hurt other people's feelings. That should be Humanity 101. There's a good reason why those things exist and should continue to exist.

The one thing that hasn't changed is men are still expected to do virtually all pursuing in a relationship. So much of the reason I commented on your delivery guy story is empathy. He sees this pretty girl and want to get to know her and yes hopefully have sex with her. What the hell exactly are his options? He'll die a lonely virgin if waits for female delivery girls to ask him out, same thing is true for waitresses, female doctors, nurse, or girls in his office. I understand that he is being stupid and clueless, but as the terrific Cracked article said, Harrison Ford didn't get laid in all the movies by taking "no I'm not interested in you" for an answer.While I know that Isabella has a strong personality and has asked guys, out. I bet that not many models on here have asked more than 10 guys out in their lives.(Random hookups don't count).

One of the promises of 1st wave feminism is that woman would start doing the pursuing. It just hasn't seemed to happen. I think I know the reason, getting the courage to ask somebody out is hard, getting rejected kindly is painful, and being laughed at is soul-crushing. The whole pursuing business for many of us guys is no fun. Hell even the guys who were good at it, and enjoyed the game, got tired of it by the time the were in their late 20s.. So woman don't do because they don't have to. If a pretty girl wants to meet somebody she puts on cute outfit, goes to a bar, smile when an acceptable guy looks at her and by the night she'll have had at least 1/2 dozen guy approaches her. Maybe once in a blue moon, she'll suggest to a guy lets go someplace else and he'll reject her.

Except women do pursue guys. The problem is that most men fucking suck at picking up on being pursued. Not the fault of the girls if the guys lack the social awareness to recognize basic signals.

A guy rated in the top 20% in looks sending a message to a woman rated in the bottom 20% in looks was less likely to get a response from that girl, than a bottom 20% girl sending a message to a top 20% guy was to get a response from the guy. Think of that the ugliest girls were pickier than the best looking guys! The odds of a hot girl responding to an ugly guy were like winning the lottery. I think one of the reasons MFC/camsite are so popular it is one of the few ways that average or below average guy can get any type of response from the elusive "hot chicks".

You do realize that much of society judges a woman's worth by her attractiveness, right? The odds are stacked so much higher against women in dating, relationships, and virtually most social affairs because women are routinely judged for solely what they bring physically to the table. Men have so, so much more latitude in this world beyond their sex appeal. If you are a guy and you can't get a girl, it is almost invariably something to do with your personality.

As someone that has lived on both sides of the gender spectrum, men have it fucking easy. Hearing them whine about the cards society deals them is laughable. Women have it so much worse in so many ways.

 

[LioraVox]

When you say "male fear culture" do you mean the "existence of pressure to be a "real" man/ hypermasculine" because on most rap albums.. the music is generally about getting out of poverty, making money, and having a lot of sex due to your wealth. Most rap isn't about fear, unless it's about losing the money they've earned and going back towards poverty.

What specifically can be considered a part of "male fear culture"? Is it the extremist viewpoint that men are seen as a threat naturally? or is it more personal like "you have to have (these qualities) to be a "real" man"? or is it both?

If by male fear, you mean the societal pressure to be *a man* - I can say that depending on where you are/ your interest you will notice that more men are letting go of the hypermasculine ideology. There are men who are throwing away the need/false desire to be "that" guy.. and just being themselves. They are carefree.. and not carefree in the sense of doing whatever he wants.. but just breaking the masculine norm. Showing that you can be a man, without having to be *a man*. Pop Culture examples would be Jaden Smith, Harry from One Direction, Chance the Rapper. These are guys that have accepted that their manhood isn't defined by societal pressures or expectations and they are just following their own interests.

 

[Vera]

I don't see any way you could protect them. Sort of like trying to protect them from getting railroaded for murder. And maybe things are changing in clear cut cases, who knows. Not from my area, but...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/07/police-arrest-woman-over-redcar-abduction-and-claim
Might be nice to have a "crying rape" charge on the books though, instead of just "wasting police time".

I don't know how rampant it is overall, but it is part of the discussion imo. All the suggestions you listed, seems like the sort of things (some might be good ideas for additional reasons) you teach kids, then the minute they are mid-teens and your back is turned they ignore.

But one "Do you dread the day you have to tell your son that not all women are honest and caring like his mother?" seems prudent. Plenty of reasons to teach them there are some evil women out there, no reason to dread that.

Potiphar's wife. Jezebel. The witch in fairy tales. Examples already in literature.

No real reason I can think of to teach them all women are honest and caring in the first place.

I mean, yeah, but this goes beyond women. Why not teach kids that not everyone is kind, period? That not all adults have the best intentions in mind regardless of gender?

I understand the unfortunate women are kind to kids/men are not dichotomy but if it comes down to teaching children to think critically, stereotypes are harmful, no mattter which way they lean.

Objectively? This wouldn't be an issue if there weren't an axe to grind on either side.

 

[Ambers Troll]

What will you do to protect your sons?

I don't have children, but do have an 19 year old nephew I saw every weekend. He has tended to opt out of dating, he just doesn't like how superficial his prospects are.
He got a few bad rejections when younger, and a bad date a few years ago. His friends all have girl friends, so he seems happy enough just with group company. He just doesn't focus on women, and it may be a while until he does again.

He has a younger sister, and an older half sister. His parents are still together after 19 years, and still have a great relationship. So he is well protected emotionally and psychologically for anything that may happen. His mother, grandmother, and myself have personal experiences with some very evil people, he knows to trust his instinct about people but not to fear them.

What I'd like to say to him most for his protection is to have fun, not fall in love. Nicer boys/ men have a tendency to let their heart lead too early, smart girls/ women just don't trust this (for good reason too actually). I worry more for his heart when it comes to women.

I also have a niece (age 11). I would advise her to trust her instinct but not let fear rule her actions. She knows what respect looks like/ feels like, so I am not too worried for her at this stage. She goes to school on her own just as her brother did, takes the train, part of this is to develop her independence, an import step in facing fear of other people (bad people) and what feels more risky.
My niece has many men in her family life, not too many women. So she knows men well, I think she will easily spot any that seem out of place emotionally/ psychologically around her.

 

[JickyJuly]

School has turned into female dominated institutions. Little boys are taught to sit quietly at the desks and punished if they don't. Middle age boys are taught how important it is to play well with other share feeling and not hurt feelings.

I don't think this really has anything to do with female dominated. Little girls were always taught these things and judged if they didn't manage. Now, all .children are. But, realistically, sitting quietly is not natural (necessarily) for children of either gender. To me, it shows more how far we've gotten away from letting children be children. Schools are afraid of litigation. Parents are tired because most houses now have both parents working. The way children work is no longer tolerated in our society and they are rushed through it.

By the time you hit college, there are safe space, classes in white male privilege, and weird rules for having sex. As a result girls to better than boys at all levels of education. Now have more college degrees than men, and with the ratio of girls to boys being 60/40 at many colleges the situation is getting more imbalanced every day.

This is pretty interesting. It seems more economy driven than feminism driven though. Since most families now require two working parents, a girl who wants to have children might be more likely to put herself in school. On top of that, women have less time to waste if family is part of their goal. To get a decent job that allows for prenatal care and maternity leave means getting that degree. Does this number include trade schools? I would guess more men than women seek out trades, and in this economic climate, trade school is a good way to go. Could the 10% difference be made up of those men?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Feeling unsafe of 'creeped' out by someone is the concern of the person feeling it, not the one that a perceived threat comes from. Without some form of action from this perceived threat you have no right to judge their intent, even if correct about it in some way.
Women need to be aware that they don't have exclusivity to fear and being creeped out by other people.

You're damn right. Don't know about the rest of the post, but that is on the money.

I mean, yeah, but this goes beyond women. Why not teach kids that not everyone is kind, period? That not all adults have the best intentions in mind regardless of gender?

I understand the unfortunate women are kind to kids/men are not dichotomy but if it comes down to teaching children to think critically, stereotypes are harmful, no mattter which way they lean.

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

Speaking of stereotypes: Raised with the stereotype that the "liberated women are evil" (that's what we called em then). Let go of that early in adulthood, sort of slid in to adopting the "feminists are good" stereotype as the years went by. Clearly it is time to let that one go as well.

No fan of Mike Pence, not by a long shot. But this story, from a few days back...
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/pences-gender-segregated-dinners/521286/
A week ago I might have read it and shook my head. Now I read it, and think "Well..."

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Pondering the raising of children...

Right or wrong, when I raised my own, the focus was on dealing with the problem of male predators. Seems to have been that way (from what I remember) with other family members as well.

One mother I spent a good deal of time with was constantly warning her daughter about being on the lookout for "creepy dudes" (that was actually the phrase she used). I remember one day at a park, the child reached down in her shorts and scratched her butt, and for a split second, half her little fanny was exposed. The mother scolded her, warning her that showing herself like that would attract "creepy dudes".

Does conditioning young (future) women this way contribute to the "rape culture" problem?

 

[Vera]

You're damn right. Don't know about the rest of the post, but that is on the money.

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

Speaking of stereotypes: Raised with the stereotype that the "liberated women are evil" (that's what we called em then). Let go of that early in adulthood, sort of slid in to adopting the "feminists are good" stereotype as the years went by. Clearly it is time to let that one go as well.

No fan of Mike Pence, not by a long shot. But this story, from a few days back...
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/pences-gender-segregated-dinners/521286/
A week ago I might have read it and shook my head. Now I read it, and think "Well..."

Man, I get it as someone raised in a conservative background. I get the issues with presentation in politics re: Pence.

My issue is that mindset presupposes a "women are awful dick seductresses who can't do things without men." It causes massive issues in terms of upward mobility for chicks who are trying to do their jobs--- how do you discuss raises with a permanently open door? It's invasive. Rest assured most women couldn't give fewer fucks about old ass dick. Like it's just a very outdated mindset to have in 2017.

Covering one's ass is fine but you never hear of women execs keeping their doors open because of upwardly mobile peens.

@justjoinedtopost I typically enjoy your outlook, irony, and circumspect approach to more serious things. No snark intended.

 

[Mila_]

This is pretty interesting. It seems more economy driven than feminism driven though. Since most families now require two working parents, a girl who wants to have children might be more likely to put herself in school. On top of that, women have less time to waste if family is part of their goal. To get a decent job that allows for prenatal care and maternity leave means getting that degree. Does this number include trade schools? I would guess more men than women seek out trades, and in this economic climate, trade school is a good way to go. Could the 10% difference be made up of those men?

Both issues are related... feminism drove wages down by increasing the supply of labor. Most families need 2 working parents because of it.

 

[Ambers Troll]

When you say "male fear culture" do you mean the "existence of pressure to be a "real" man/ hypermasculine" because on most rap albums.. the music is generally about getting out of poverty, making money, and having a lot of sex due to your wealth. Most rap isn't about fear, unless it's about losing the money they've earned and going back towards poverty.

What specifically can be considered a part of "male fear culture"? Is it the extremist viewpoint that men are seen as a threat naturally? or is it more personal like "you have to have (these qualities) to be a "real" man"? or is it both?

I was thinking of a range of male fears but rap songs tend to do the big 3, poverty is not the fear so much as wealth is the cure. The big 3 are violence, injury risk in making a living, and of course being alone.

Violence has always been a fear for men, both the requirement to commit it and facing it. I don't think most women quite respect how scary and dangerous men fighting can be. Almost every male interaction is laced with it, what happens if things turn violent? Where am I placed? This kind of competition is why men die so young.
The more real risk of being beaten so badly that you may end up disabled in some way or killed definitely equals rape in the fear stakes.

Closely related is the fear of injury, the insecurity that we just won't be strong enough or tough enough. This is the hyper masculine image we are scared we can't measure up to. Work where you must put your body at risk and other roles we generally assign to men can develop into some pretty deep insecurities about ourselves (whether we do those roles or not).
In recent years and related to sex, you can add in body image issues, something historically never a concern for men.

Fantasies of lots of sex is a fear of being alone. This one has increased dramatically in the last half century as roles for men have become confused.
Increasingly men are opting out of any kind of approach to women, they try once or twice then are afraid to try again. If you aren't type 1 or rich then why bother the fear tells us. Porn and the occasional crude comment at real women is just easier, you release the sexual energy and get on with life.

My real point earlier is that you can't let these fears lead you. If I am in a group of drunk men, worrying that I may have to fight them, defend myself against them, or defend someone else from them is a fear I shouldn't place on myself without cause. I may be creeped out, but it is me, not them until they demonstrate otherwise. You let the risk cross your mind, take steps to decrease the risk if need be, but not to incite it by showing that fear.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Man, I get it as someone raised in a conservative background. I get the issues with presentation in politics re: Pence.

My issue is that mindset presupposes a "women are awful dick seductresses who can't do things without men." It causes massive issues in terms of upward mobility for chicks who are trying to do their jobs--- how do you discuss raises with a permanently open door? It's invasive. Rest assured most women couldn't give fewer fucks about old ass dick. Like it's just a very outdated mindset to have in 2017.

Covering one's ass is fine but you never hear of women execs keeping their doors open because of upwardly mobile peens.

@justjoinedtopost I typically enjoy your outlook, irony, and circumspect approach to more serious things. No snark intended.

My impression of Pence (just a general suspicion) is that his dinner policy seems to be more based on the religious fear of sexuality thing.

What really got me thinking was this part from the article...
"“several female aides reported that they have been barred from staffing their male bosses at evening events, driving alone with their congressman or senator, or even sitting down one-on-one in his office for fear that others would get the wrong impression.”

Sort of reminded me of being afraid to give the crying woman a ride to the hospital. I think if I was in a position of power like ceo/congressman, I would definitely take measures to protect myself (camera in the office, car, etc.) at all times.

But you aren't really coming across snarky, and I don't mind snark too much anyway.

Here is another observation (this not directed at @VeraPrice either, just memories). This is from years ago, everyone involved probably either grandparents (or dead ) by now.

I worked in a bar/restaurant job for a while. First year, no biggie, just another guy working. After that I got promoted to management, and over the next year had 5 different women make advances/passes. No groping/physical stuff, just verbal stuff (and a lewd card left on my car's windshield). I only fucked one of them, two got slightly nasty with me when it didn't go anywhere, and two of them wound up fucking other managers.

Admittedly this is an extreme example from long ago (and from one of the bottom-rung lines of work), but I have witnessed the same thing over and over again in other places. Jogged loose from memory by this story.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/alabama-governor-resign-scandal-46649861
(no blame, no "it's the men/women fault!"...only pondering society)

 

[Ambers Troll]

The idea that a man shouldn't bother with a woman if he's going to be "friend-zoned" also assumes there is no worth in the friendship of a woman. So, if he feels that way, no he should not bother. A man who doesn't value women past sex should just stick with hanging out with men and accept that it is his own bias and not try to create other reasons.

My point is that he will always assume he will be friend zoned, that he won't even entertain the idea of any kind of sexual relationship. I did not say he wouldn't bother with a woman, only that he wouldn't chase a sexual relationship. This type of man usually has women friends, but he can't take any friendship further due to his fear of rejection.

Sometimes this may include acting out fantasies of being different, perhaps it can lead to sexual happiness? Most likely it will lead to scaring or offending someone.

 

[CharlieCharma]

Some people could ask those questions because they are jerks but I can also understand why some people might think it is relevant, it is like asking someone who got mugged what side of town he parked in and whether he was walking alone. It isnt that you think getting mugged was his fault, but you might want to not do the same thing he did to protect yourself, and if you are the police there are details that help you reconstruct what happened.

With sexy clothes I think it is a little bit like the advice they give you when you live in a country with rampant auto theft. They tell you to put all the security systems you can to your car (I have no clue what the names are in english but this is my best attempt at translating the names): wheel bars, shift bars, power cutters, alarms, etc.. not because the robbers dont have a way to bypass it all, they do, but if there are 10 cars parked on the street they will usually pick the easiest one to rob, having 5 security systems is a deterrent because it takes a while to open your car that way.

Other things they recommended were not to drive the latest models, not to have a very state of the art music equipment and if you did, to take the panel with you, and to avoid as much as possible parking on the street... to only pa "k inside if you value your car a lot.

So if your car got stolen people could ask you what model you drove, what security systems it had, if you parked on the street or inside. Your car can get stolen no matter how many precautions you take, but people still want to know the specifics.

You can get raped on laundry day wearing your pajamas and no make up inside your building while you were with your friend, but there are attitudes and actions that make you a better victim: walking late at night, by yourself, on a sketchy neighborhood while all dolled up and scantily clad. Asking you the specifics is not necessarily blaming you for what happened. They could also want to explain how to better take care of yourself.

I am quoting you right now and telling you that your "better to protect yourself" attitude is offensive because most rapes are not done by strangers in an alleyway. Most rapes are done by people you trust or in situations you feel safe. You wouldn't lock your car in the middle of bum fuck southern state middle of nowhere cause you wouldn't expect it to get broken into. Also, your vagina isn't a car with things to steal from it.

My rape happened at my friend's house on his couch by someone who was spending the night there that he vouched for. Rapes are done by family members, friends, boyfriends, dates, etc/ not dudes walking around in a goddamn sketchy side of town. Rapes aren't a thing you can just protect yourself with because such a small percentage happen when you actually put yourself in danger.

Stranger danger is a lie. Rape isn't like theft.

Lots of crime is based off of desperation. "I'm going to rob this car because I want a radio" "I'm going to rob this house and pawn the computer cause I can't pay rent." "I'm going to rape this girl because I want power over someone." They aren't the same motivations. They're not even the same types of the motivations. You can't protect yourself from rape because the motivation for rape is nothing like the motivation for the majority of crime.

 

[CharlieCharma]

@Kitsune, I'll never take a chill pill about rape you insensitive prick,

 

[Mila_]

I am sorry if my perspective offends you, princess, but the internet is not your safe space.

When a family member rapes you it's usually called "molestation" to separate it from rape because they are two different problems.

Theft and rape are similar in many ways, and similar to breaking and entering because they are all crimes committed against another person's property: be it their car, their home or their bodies.

And last, but not least, I dont know what part of America suburbia you grew up in, but theft is not committed out of desperation. Millions of people are desperate and only a fraction of them steal. It is done out of poor morals and envy for someone else's shit.

 

[CharlieCharma]

I am sorry if my perspective offends you, princess, but the internet is not your safe space.

When a family member rapes you it's usually called "molestation" to separate it from rape because they are two different problems.

Theft and rape are similar in many ways, and similar to breaking and entering because they are all crimes committed against another person's property: be it their car, their home or their bodies.

And last, but not least, I dont know what part of America suburbia you grew up in, but theft is not committed out of desperation. Millions of people are desperate and only a fraction of them steal. It is done out of poor morals and envy for someone else's shit.

The internet isn't a safe place, snowflake. So I'm free to call you out on your ignorance as I please.

 

[Mila_]

Its great how some of you give positive ratings to someone insulting another member of the forum calling them a "prick" simply for stating an opinion. It is great to know how your little tribe of suck-ups like to keep the conversation level high.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

When a family member rapes you it's usually called "molestation" to separate it from rape because they are two different problems.

I am curious about this. I guess this all depends on each person but I always thought of molesting (I actually kind of hate that word for some reason and usually use sexual assault instead) as like everything but full penetration rape (fingering, sexual groping, ect) and definitely not limited to family. I've (and most people I conversate with it seems do, too) always called rape just rape and then everything else usually seems to usually fall in the molestation/sexual assault category when talking about things. I am curious now if I am in the minority on thinking this way. I know rape technically still is sexual assault but I feel people in my experiences will just say rape.

 

[CharlieCharma]

Its great how some of you give positive ratings to someone insulting another member of the forum calling them a "prick" simply for stating an opinion. It is great to know how your little tribe of suck-ups like to keep the conversation level high.

I am sorry if my perspective offends you, princess, but the internet is not your safe space.

if ya didn't want to be insulted and patronized, you shouldn't of been insulting and patronizing sweet thing

Giving a chill pill rating on a well thought out response on a serious topic? I mean, how do you not expect to get a reaction out of that. You dish it out all the time. Put me on ignore, but don't act like a victim. The internet isn't your safe space.

 

[Val Vega]

Its great how some of you give positive ratings to someone insulting another member of the forum calling them a "prick" simply for stating an opinion. It is great to know how your little tribe of suck-ups like to keep the conversation level high.

Perhaps instead some self-reflection as to why so many of your opinions elicit a strongly negative response is in order.

 

[Gen]

I think someone mentioned this elsewhere in the thread but I am gonna bring it up again because the talk of victim blaming made me think of this. I do think a lot of victim blaming is a subconscious way to comfort ourselves and try to take control of situations that we will never have control over.

I see this even with non-rape situations, if you go look at the Facebook comments on almost any news story involving a tragedy you'll see it. Toddler gets eaten by an alligator? Shouldn't have let your kid wade in the water. Someone gets swindled by an internet scam? Shouldn't have been dumb on the internet. Everyone playing Captain Hindsight because we can eventually find a kernel of a reason that it happened to this person and we would always be smarter so we won't be victimized. We can make ourselves feel way safer by teaching our daughters to cover their drinks and put their keys between their fingers, even knowing that statistically it's more likely their family members or boyfriends who will harm them.

The shitty thing is this obviously puts shame and stigma on victims, whether the situation was due to a brief lapse in judgment/an error or if there was nothing they could've done. I get really sad seeing the responses to everything because it's rare to see someone say "man that fucking sucks" as opposed to "well why did they...if it was me....".

(I don't know enough about how investigations work to know why cops would need info about clothes aside from like...testing it for evidence? So can't speak to it specifically in law enforcement, was more thinking about how the public discusses this stuff.)

 

[Mila_]

if ya didn't want to be insulted and patronized, you shouldn't of been insulting and patronizing sweet thing.

I have been nothing but respectful in this thread. You insulted me twice, first for stating an opinion you disagreed with and then for giving you a chill pill. It was only then that I responded in kind.

Perhaps instead some self-reflection as to why so many of your opinions elicit a strongly negative response is in order.

Isnt this blaming the victim? It takes a lot of courage to come to place where my views are in the minority and voice them anyway. I try my best to be respectful to everyone regardless of their opinion. But a small group of members dont know how to debate with people who dont think like them. You in particular have given me scores of facepalms and poops instead of engaging me or ignoring me and are aggressive towards me when I have done nothing to you.

CharlieCharma just set a new low for the forum with her direct insults though. And I am tired.

Edit: it's really mature of you to edit your posts after my replies, but it is obvious why I gave you a chill pill, your post was a "well thought out post" on why I am an offensive enemy in essence. I thought it was an over reaction and out of line.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

(I don't know enough about how investigations work to know why cops would need info about clothes aside from like...testing it for evidence? So can't speak to it specifically in law enforcement, was more thinking about how the public discusses this stuff.)

When I brought up I think it's only okay to ask what they were wearing if it's an investigator it was for evidence. When I was attacked and went to the hospital they asked what I was wearing (I was still wearing it) and they took my clothes as evidence. I think that's pretty much the only reason they'd need to know. Just to give you (and anyone else) insight on why they'd ask!

 

[CharlieCharma]

Isnt this blaming the victim? It takes a lot of courage to come to place where my views are in the minority and voice them anyway. I try my best to be respectful to everyone regardless of their opinion. But a small group of members dont know how to debate with people who dont think like them. You in particular have given me scores of facepalms and poops instead of engaging me or ignoring me
CharlieCharma just set a new low for the forum with her direct insults though. And I am tired.

Oh please. Stahp. You aren't a victim.