Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[Guy]

Do you agree with the concept of rape culture?

 

[Val Vega]

Absolutely. I think it is utterly pervasive.

 

[LioraVox]

Yes, and not only is it pervasive like Jizzy said but it's like.. mildly unavoidable. Obviously, there's the more extreme end of the spectrum but everyone has seen a person and said "man i'd like to fuck them" to themselves.

And maybe I'm getting too close to the "too politically correct" line here but just the idea of wanting to have any type of sexual interaction with someone without them actively playing into it or advertising a sexual image *passively* contributes to the continuation of "rape culture"

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I absolutely agree, and I think it's a good thing that people are starting to acknowledge that rape is not just occasional isolated cases committed by crazed strangers. There are various different levels of culture which lead to people feeling it is ok (or desirable) to rape which are all connected. Some people get very annoyed when you say that groping a woman against her will is connected to rape, but essentially, how could it not be? You are knowingly invading someone else's space in a sexual manner, and in the cases when I've been groped most of the men doing so have known I didn't enjoy it. I don't think it is sexual either, it seems to be more about getting a thrill out of degrading or having power over that person (same when women do it to men). With the many times I've been groped it seems to be more about taking what isn't theirs than them having the need to touch me. These guys may not ever rape in their lives, but their actions are of the same mindset. You've got to remember that statistically stranger rape is very rare, usually it isn't the brutal act of pure rage which we are fed by papers. More often it is by someone known, even trusted who thinks it's ok to take that person against their will. It'll probably be that guy that everyone thinks is a great guy and the woman will never report it because she doesn't want to be hated on. Rapists know this, they know they can get away with it because everyone is afraid of the word "rape". People don't like connecting the dots, and they don't like accepting that there might be something wrong socially that could be causing this issue. It's much easier to hate on a crazed stranger than accept it could be any one of us.

An interesting fact I learned quite recently, statistically the main crime connected with someone raping is theft. When they catch rapists it is one of the things they look for. This seems completely unconnected, but then, it really isn't. Thieves are people who think it is ok to invade someones space and steal. Raping is doing just that but you are stealing sex. This is not what they're talking about exactly when people talk about "rape culture", but it does show that all sorts of things are connected to someone eventually making the decision to rape.

 

[SaffronBurke]

Thieves are people who think it is ok to invade someones space and steal. Raping is doing just that but you are stealing sex.

That's a unique but very accurate description of rape.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

How is 'rape culture' defined? What specific behaviours are we talking about here? (other than groping, I mean)

 

[Osmia]

I've heard the phrase many times, but TBH have given it only passing consideration--basically taking a common-sense interpretation that it's a cultural/psychological acceptance of sexual violence against others (overwhelmingly male against female). However, this definition is so tautological as to be devoid of real information.

This US Government report shows that rapes and sexual assaults against females declined dramatically from 1995 to 2010. The report contains many other interesting statistics, such as the marital status of victims: divorced/separated have the highest victimization rates, followed by never-married, and with widowed or married having the lowest rate. Also, I was a bit shocked to learn that the 12-17 year old age group has the highest rate, by far. And, the less than $25K/year income group has the highest rate by far.

I would be interested in knowing more about what rape culture is, especially from a woman's perspective and concrete experience. Is it analogous to racism? For example, there is still plenty of cultural and structural racism in the U.S., even though overt racial discrimination is much less common than it was before the civil rights legislation of the 1950s and 60s. How is it propagated? (family/social influences, TV, movies?) What fuels it? (money, education and power disparities between men and women?) Will rape culture persist, like racism, if the rates of rape/sexual assault crimes continue to decline?

And, Guy, I'd like to hear what you think about it, too.

 

[MFCGod]

Jesus Guy.. lol this is a bit of a departure from your "what's your favourite ice cream?" "do you like bunny rabbits?" usual type of threads

 

[heybarkeep]

How is 'rape culture' defined? What specific behaviours are we talking about here? (other than groping, I mean)

I'm sure answers will vary wildly but as a dude I'll list some behaviors that I experience and feel contribute to the culture. The way many women don't recognize how aggressive they are being and how groping is totally okay for them to do. The way some think that simply being a woman means the dude wants to sleep with her and him not wanting to makes him less a man. The way that some women can't take being rejected without being insulting and this simply being written off as women are crazy. The way ignorant men blame things on thinking with their dick. The way ignorant people think men constantly want sex. The way that many only see rape as possible by men. All of this contributes in some way in my opinion.

Please don't take this post as some mra garbage or as me ignoring the issues that women face. Not trying to pretend men have it worse but also not willing to give a pass to how rapey many women are.

 

[AudriTwo]

I don't think America has a rape culture entirely. People who are even ACCUSED of rape are socially destroyed. As a society, we persecute rapists. Rape cases are incredibly hard to prosecute, especially if the evidence is he said she said. But you can usually guarantee the accused is destroyed socially and their career has ended.

You know where in America that does have rape culture? Our prison system.

 

[SMuser69]

Being a rapist or even being labeled a sexual predator is damning enough in society for it not to be a rape culture.

That said I think there's been a broadening of what's considered "rape" that's in some cases unhealthy and burdening the system making things harder for clear victims.

There are some in society that seem to believe all action are premeditated and no accidents can ever happen. You catch a woman the wrong way from falling and now your turned from a hero to a groper. While there are plenty to true victims of abuse out there I do think there's a vocal minority out there that think it's a badge of honor to be victimized so they can gain a voice through it.

Like this idea that men can work in daycare because there's a mom out there that assumes a man around children is a pedophile. Or the case of the mom calling a guy a creeper for taking a selfie of himself but she seeing the other side of the phone pointing at her kids and exploding. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ar-Wars-selfie-offers-grovelling-apology.html

I think it's become more rewarding for someone to play a victim than to use common sense, that it's began to skew society. Why an adult in the same neighborhood can get the cops called on them for speaking to the kids riding the wrong way on bikes. We're teaching each generation below us more and more than the system is the ultimate protection and not personal judgement.

 

[Mila_]

Nope, not real.

In muslim countries: yes.

 

[Lelo1]

People who are abused are more likely to abuse. That's not so much a culture; more of a cycle of abuse. The best way to stop the cycle is create a safe place. Give people the support they need, and the protection they need to break the cycle.

 

[Snowie1969]

As long as you still have people in power who seriously believe that it is a woman's fault if she gets raped because of how she dresses etc, then yes, we still have a rape culture.

 

[fandango]

I don't even fully understand what rape culture is or what that term even really means, its just too wooly and vague.

Maybe if there was some clear uniformally agreed definition then it would be possible to say whether or not its real. Obviously rape is real and a terrible thing but the term rape culture seems to be interpreted in so many ways by so many different people that its hard to say.

If it means literally that we have a culture where rapes still happen then the answer is yes but if its taken to mean that we have a culture where rape is expected or some sort of acceptable norm then I think the answer is no.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Not disagreeing with you completely here, just a couple of thoughts that came in my head...I come from a different area (and era ) than you...just offering up a different perspective.

I absolutely agree, and I think it's a good thing that people are starting to acknowledge that rape is not just occasional isolated cases committed by crazed strangers.

"Starting to acknowledge" almost sounds like this is something new. Almost 25 (not quite) years ago I had to attend a class that was all about date rape, the importance of stopping if she said "no" (no matter how far along things were), and the invasive nature of sexual harassment.

There are various different levels of culture which lead to people feeling it is ok (or desirable) to rape which are all connected. Some people get very annoyed when you say that groping a woman against her will is connected to rape, but essentially, how could it not be? You are knowingly invading someone else's space in a sexual manner, and in the cases when I've been groped most of the men doing so have known I didn't enjoy it. I don't think it is sexual either, it seems to be more about getting a thrill out of degrading or having power over that person (same when women do it to men). With the many times I've been groped it seems to be more about taking what isn't theirs than them having the need to touch me.

To me, unless there have been some pretty clear go-ahead signals, and you know she is ready to play, that handsy shit is a no-no. But if my hands are on a recon mission, it is probly not a thrill of degrading or having power that I am after. More likely, I am hoping to get my dick up in something (most definitely sexual).

If you are having to deal with repeated unwanted groping, I can definitely see where that is edging into rape territory.
I also think equating groping with rape is something that can be hideously counterproductive.

You know where in America that does have rape culture? Our prison system.

One of the drug war documentaries, I forget which one, one of the crack dealers talked about how when he was arrested they threatened him with rape if he didn't play ball. Maybe he was full of shit, who knows.
Over the years, I have heard the same story from 3 other people irl (in different regions). Maybe they were full of shit, who knows.



I was at the store not long ago, a young woman in front of me at the register is crying. Based on the snippet of conversation I heard between her and the cashier (and what she was buying), I got the feeling it was emotional/mental.

When I came out of the store, she was standing there by the trash can, still crying. Asked me if I was headed in the direction of a local hospital about two minutes away. Without even thinking about it, I told her "Nope, sorry"; didn't even stop walking.

Bothered me a little. Remembered Momma teaching me the story of the Good Samaritan. Snippet of a verse popped in my head "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." I felt bad, like I did the wrong thing.

Ah well...maybe some empowered person who understands how to prevent rape came along and helped her.

 

[MFCGod]

As long as you still have people in power who seriously believe that it is a woman's fault if she gets raped because of how she dresses etc, then yes, we still have a rape culture.

Blame is interesting and I don't think it's always what it seems (not talking about people in power with this, just people in general)

Lets say I'm walking home alone one night and I get beat up by a group of thugs and robbed

That's very emasculating, I wouldn't like to be a victim of that

If it did happen I would likely blame myself that I wasn't strong enough, I should have gone to the gym more, I should have trained a martial art, maybe I should have been carrying a weapon, I should have known that area was dangerous etc etc

All the above give the power back to me, if I change, I can stop this happening again, I am in control

I think sometimes when we hear of things happening to other people, we blame them because we like to think we make better choices so that could never happen to us, we don't like to think we're powerless

Sometimes blame is just a comforting false sense of control

ps. Of course there are also just some people who are absolute idiots

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

↑
Being a rapist or even being labeled a sexual predator is damning enough in society for it not to be a rape culture.

That said I think there's been a broadening of what's considered "rape" that's in some cases unhealthy and burdening the system making things harder for clear victims.

There are some in society that seem to believe all action are premeditated and no accidents can ever happen. You catch a woman the wrong way from falling and now your turned from a hero to a groper. While there are plenty to true victims of abuse out there I do think there's a vocal minority out there that think it's a badge of honor to be victimized so they can gain a voice through it.

↑
I absolutely agree, and I think it's a good thing that people are starting to acknowledge that rape is not just occasional isolated cases committed by crazed strangers. There are various different levels of culture which lead to people feeling it is ok (or desirable) to rape which are all connected. Some people get very annoyed when you say that groping a woman against her will is connected to rape, but essentially, how could it not be? You are knowingly invading someone else's space in a sexual manner, and in the cases when I've been groped most of the men doing so have known I didn't enjoy it. I don't think it is sexual either, it seems to be more about getting a thrill out of degrading or having power over that person (same when women do it to men). With the many times I've been groped it seems to be more about taking what isn't theirs than them having the need to touch me. These guys may not ever rape in their lives, but their actions are of the same mindset. You've got to remember that statistically stranger rape is very rare, usually it isn't the brutal act of pure rage which we are fed by papers. More often it is by someone known, even trusted who thinks it's ok to take that person against their will. It'll probably be that guy that everyone thinks is a great guy and the woman will never report it because she doesn't want to be hated on. Rapists know this, they know they can get away with it because everyone is afraid of the word "rape". People don't like connecting the dots, and they don't like accepting that there might be something wrong socially that could be causing this issue. It's much easier to hate on a crazed stranger than accept it could be any one of us.
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I think these two quotes show the definitional problems.Izzy is right she shouldn't be gropped period. On the other hand rape is not the right term in many cases its used. The classic case of two 19 years old hooking up and getting drunk and high at party. They start making out, they go to bedroom, clothes come off. At some point the girl softly says "stop" but she continues to kiss the guy. They start to have sex, the last shot kicks in and she passes out, he continues to fuck her. The law actually has nuanced differences and this probably won't be classified as 1st or 2nd degree rape, but some lesser charge and may not be provable beyond a reasonable doubt.. But many people call it rape.

Even as recently as last century, this would have been a lesson in teenagers shouldn't drink or do drugs. Their judgement isn't good enough to handle the consequences. They were both drunk, drunk people especially kids do stupid things. Yet somehow, we hold the guy to a higher standard than the girl, eventhough we all know girls mature faster than guys. On one hand, I hate to see a guy's life ruined because when he was young, foolish and drunk, he did foolish things. On the other hand the tolerance for this does encourage serial sexual predators (like President's Trump and Clinton) to continue their behavior.

Finally, lots of guys notice this behavior by young woman and it doesn't help discourage "rape culture".

 

[Mila_]

It can be even worse... girls who regret fucking a guy the night before will sometimes say he raped her. Then there are total nutjobs like Jackie from the University of Virginia making up gang rape stories and selling them to magazines ruining the lives of groups of men in the process forever. It sucks, but it happens too because women can be opportunistic and exploit a system that favors victims of alleged rape's testimonies over actual evidence.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

It can be even worse... girls who regret fucking a guy the night before will sometimes say he raped her. Then there are total nutjobs like Jackie from the University of Virginia making up gang rape stories and selling them to magazines ruining the lives of groups of men in the process forever. It sucks, but it happens too because women can be opportunistic and exploits a system that favors victims of alleged rape's testimonies over actual evidence.

This ought to be lumped in with rape in my opinion.

Woman accused a man of sexually assaulting her. He lost his job, got locked up, his wife wound up working two jobs trying to keep from losing everything. After accusing another man, it comes out the woman is mentally unstable. She was just bullshitting pretty much for attention. First man she accused didn't get his job back. She raped him, and to a lesser extent, his family. Send this woman to jail. When she gets out, put her on a sex offender registry. But no, that didn't happen.

Another woman claims rape because she didn't want her boyfriend to know she cheated on him willingly. Off to jail with him! The truth comes out months later, he gets out. Jail time for her? Lifetime on a registry? Hehe, no...get out of here you little scamp...everyone is free to go.

Neither one of these stories really made the news. The first man attempted suicide outright, the second one told me he wrestled with the idea for a long time.

Is pointing out this part of reality contributing to "rape culture"? Idk...

 

[Nordling]

No, I do not think false accusations should be included in "rape culture," or assault in general. False accusations are slander or libel, and in many cases criminal, but not rape. To "lump it in" weakens the ability of real victims to find justice.

 

[heybarkeep]

Any specific part of my post that you disagree with, @Nordling? Or are you just flailing away at the post ratings like some child?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

No, I do not think false accusations should be included in "rape culture," or assault in general. False accusations are slander or libel, and in many cases criminal, but not rape. To "lump it in" weakens the ability of real victims to find justice.

I don't know. In the first story, I don't know what all that guy went through. Saw enough to know it turned his life upside down. Second story, I heard a lot more about what went on while he was locked up. Both of these men were real victims. I don't know what justice would mean in situations like this, but simply turning them loose while their false accuser faces little or no penalty hardly sounds right.

 

[Nordling]

I don't know. In the first story, I don't know what all that guy went through. Saw enough to know it turned his life upside down. Second story, I heard a lot more about what went on while he was locked up. Both of these men were real victims. I don't know what justice would mean in situations like this, but simply turning them loose while their false accuser faces little or no penalty hardly sounds right.

No, of course not, they are victims of false accusations...and should be compensated, and their accusers should be punished, but still it's not rape culture....any more than theft, murder or other crimes are...each crime or genre of crime is unique. This thread is about actual sexual assault--rape.

 

[Nordling]

Any specific part of my post that you disagree with, @Nordling? Or are you just flailing away at the post ratings like some child?

Disagreeing is childish? Your post seems to be on the way to blaming victims. If I'd posted a turd at your post, you'd have a point.

 

[heybarkeep]

Disagreeing is childish? Your post seems to be on the way to blaming victims. If I'd posted a turd at your post, you'd have a point.

Mashing a button instead of giving an opinion is childish in my opinion, yes. Please explain how any of what I said was anywhere near victim blaming.

 

[SMuser69]

Disagreeing is childish? Your post seems to be on the way to blaming victims. If I'd posted a turd at your post, you'd have a point.

Who's he blaming? He's reflecting on the double standard that exists. Then added a complete separate line explaining how he's not dismissing the issues women have.

 

[Nordling]

Mashing a button instead of giving an opinion is childish in my opinion, yes. Please explain how any of what I said was anywhere near victim blaming.

Have fun with your opinion. I don't care to argue with you. I don't mind being childish, when someone whose opinion borders on evil tries to start something. In other words, piss off.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Being a rapist or even being labeled a sexual predator is damning enough in society for it not to be a rape culture.

This is interesting, because in my experience people being very afraid of the word "rape" often allows perpetrators to get away with their actions. Because people are so afraid of calling someone a rapist as they don't want to ruin their life if they're wrong. This is why even in court cases where there is plenty of evidence, it is very hard to get a conviction. Even then the woman often faces a lot of social issues from it herself. People seem to be more likely to scream at a woman who's accused someone of rape than the person accused. I guess people would rather believe someone's a lair than a rapist. People don't want to be wrong about it, and it is why many rapists (and pedophiles) spend years and years getting away with it. I've known rapists and pedophiles who've later been arrested, and the thing is, people knew that something was going on long before that but no one wanted to get involved. It's a very awkward topic for most, so yes while you can get these sorts of witch hunts, often rapists and pedophiles go completely unnoticed. There is also the assumption that everyone will automatically know if someone gets convicted which often isn't the case.

That said I think there's been a broadening of what's considered "rape" that's in some cases unhealthy and burdening the system making things harder for clear victims.

Rape is having sex with them against their will. Consent is the difference between rape and sex. If someone consents to have sex with you then you are not raping them (unless they are underage or severely inebriated), it is kinda no brainer. Rape does not have to involve physical violence. Stranger rape is what people most commonly think about which is when a man either lurks in wait or takes an opportunity to violently rape a complete stranger. This usually has little to do with the age of the victim and is more an act of pure violence than sex. This is really rare, most cases of rape are conducted by a family member, a partner, a friend or an acquaintance. In most of these cases it goes unreported, which is why education about rape is an important topic. For both men and women. There hasn't been a broadening of what's considered rape, it's just that people used to only see newspaper articles which pick more serious cases, while now lots of women are speaking up about their own experiences which don't match the image in popular culture.

I guess a good analogy is being mugged. If someone threatening demands you to give them your phone, wallet etc you might give those items over without them ever being violent towards you. That doesn't mean those items were a gift, you were still mugged and your items were still stolen. This is what it can be like if a man rapes a woman, often the woman is so shocked that he's ignoring her initial "no" that she freezes up. Sometimes she might fight the perpetrator off for a while and then give up and "go along with it". Shock does weird things to the brain. I have been overpowered before and have realised I'm being raped, but in that moment haven't known what to do so have tried to go along with it. I guess kind of like if someone makes a really distasteful joke you might laugh anyway to avoid awkwardness. You don't want to admit to what's happening so you try and make the best of the situation and make it be over faster. I've had it when I carried on acting fine with the person and it was only a few days later in hospital getting treated for the damage caused that I broke down. In that situation I had been dating him, we hadn't slept together yet but were on the verge of doing so but didn't have a condom which I was clear was essential. He clearly didn't care and overpowered me anyway. I did manage to fight him off eventually, but I was so in shock about what had happened I ignored it for the 48 hours afterwards. In these situations you do not necessarily act how you'd think you would act. I think it's also important to point out that you can rape someone even if they are attracted to you. That guy was gorgeous and I was completely up for sleeping with him. But I did not want what he did to me. For those who've suffered from abuse or rape in the past they might just assume it's something they have to tolerate and won't necessarily scream and fight.

There's a good video with an analogy to tea showing that you shouldn't force feed someone tea, even if they'd previously said they wanted tea. It makes it pretty obvious what consent really means. That if someone says no, then you need to just accept that and not try to force them to "want tea".

Rape culture is just about normalising sexual violence against women (and men). Could be in jokes, locker room talk, banter, even music. Could be talking about blurred lines or situations where a woman says no repeatedly to a man but then ends up falling for him anyway. Something I've noticed is a lot more American comedy has rape culture than English comedy. There's a cool interview with Stephen Fry talking about the differences between the two types of comedy. But I guess you've got American Pie, filming a girl against her will, talking about girls as primarily sex objects, making guys seem like they're always gagging for it, Stifler saying all sorts of derogatory and rude stuff to girls yet still having the girls all over him (though he does get screwed over a lot and he is painted as a dick it's also seen as being not that bad). Donald Trump is a prime example of making light of sexual harassment against women and objectifying women.
In England we have a lad culture which is dying out, which is basically just rape culture 101. I think I posted this study up here years ago, but basically some researchers took quotes from various different british lads mags and quotes from convicted rapists and gave them to people to see if they could tell which was which. They could not. The quotes were dark, really dark. Out of men I knew as a teenager who were the most "rapey", they tended to be the guys who read those sorts of magazines and idolised the lad culture. Now it's kinda chicken or the egg, are less respectful guys more into that sort of thing or do they become less respectful after reading it? The only thing I can say is that lads mags didn't have the age restrictions porn did, you could see soft pornographic images with it being hidden as a magazine about sports, cars and "guy stuff". This meant a lot of boys at the brink of puberty would read them.
However you feel about rape culture, you surely can't deny that there's something wrong about having children and teenagers read things idolising stuff that people can't tell the difference if it comes from a convicted rapist.
Some people see porn as part of rape culture, and while I can see their points, porn is never painted as real. It is very much a sexual fantasy that looks hot and you jerk off to. But most people are very aware it's completely fake, while magazines encourage you to buy into a way of life.

Rape culture isn't just against women, but also against men. I notice more women trying to get control back act derogatory towards men or grope them inappropriately. Women on hen do's sometimes treat all men like they're strippers in the same way I have experienced men doing. This IMO is not ok and is just as bad and doesn't empower women any more than it empowers men. I don't want women to start groping men, I just want to stop being groped!!! I hate it, absolutely hate it. I have knocked a few guys to the floor for slapping my ass or groping me. I feel the girls who do it because guys do it to them are just persuading those guys more that it's ok (or are harassing an innocent man). Most of the time when I talk about the amount I get approached, followed, catcalled or groped by a stranger to a man, they will have an example of a couple of times that they got touched up and how it really wasn't all that bad. They fail to understand what it's like to have it being an every day occurrence.

I had a female friend who had a reputation for groping guys, they often groped her and she liked the attention. It used to annoy me as my friends ex boyfriend used to then grab my ass thinking it was ok even though I told him it wasn't. The girl then thought it was ok to grope my friends new boyfriend at a Sunday afternoon horse show as we watched his girlfriend compete. He really hated it, he said to me he didn't know what to do or how to make it stop. I was furious with her, it was so beyond inappropriate and there was no reason he should have to put up with that because she's "just a girl" and he was a guy. But he had no idea how to broach the subject, and I understand him. I have tried to explain that I hate it to guys who do it and it has never helped. At best they've laughed at me and have continued doing it, and at worst they've got angry at me for "implying they're doing something untoward". And then I've ended up apologising to them, having to explain I'm just really weird about personal space. I'm not, I just don't like being touched up in public against my will.

People follow social and cultural norms, and seeing as rape statistics are pretty dam high and most women I know have some experience with sexual assault there clearly is something going wrong socially. It makes sense to look at what is happening within our culture to see if we can help remove this kind of conditioning (or at least make it more clear that it isn't acceptable), and then see if there's a result. Even in the past 5 years I've noticed less movies coming out with "rapey" comments.

 

[Nordling]

Who's he blaming? He's reflecting on the double standard that exists. Then added a complete separate line explaining how he's not dismissing the issues women have.

Please. What he said was equivalent to "women do it too! And that's why rape!"