Obamacare

[JerryBoBerry]

I saw that each state will have a "baseline" plan; will there be a mandated minimum plan (like each insurance provider must have a basic plan that costs no more than $xx per month)? I imagine there's measures in place so insurance companies can't just charge a bazillion dollars a month?

It's hard for me to wrap my head around as it seems a bit confusing. It makes me happy if healthcare is more accessible but I have a few friends who've said this is going to be harder on them financially (to the point of really fucking with their finances). It's interesting to see everyone's perspectives on it; it was hard for me to see how anyone could not want it but I can see some reasons now.

I'm from the middle of Missouri. Most of the people I know here are not in a very high income bracket and barely pay their bills now. Everyone I know will be hurt financially by this. This is one of the worst pieces of garbage legislation to come out of this administration.

 

[Gen]

But hypothetically won't it save money in the long run, on an individual level? Like you pay premiums now and if you have an accident or get sick, you won't wind up with a ginormous bill. Although I can certainly understand that when you can barely make ends meet, "in the long run" is not really feasible.

I would also be afraid of being at the mercy of the insurance company. I know sometimes getting hem to pay for things is like trying to get blood from a stone, so I wonder how many people will wind up thinking they're covered but actually not having the insurance company pay for it.

Thank you guys discussing with me, haha like I said I'm not super informed on this so I appreciate the info! :flags-canada: :flags-usa:

 

[Nordling]

Pretty funny how she complains about the project being outsourced, but it was HER side that started that. And she accuses everyone on the left of the "blame game" is hilarious, since that's what this whole piece is doing.

Obama lied on countless occasions about people being able to keep their present plan.

Only his blunders that originally started at 94 million for the initial website will be close to a BILLION by the time it's working properly. Good job Mr. President.

Obama lied to get elected and he lied to get Obamacare passed. The majority of Americans don't even want any part of Obamacare.

Nice assertions. Oh, and I understand you wear green hats and hate spaghetti.

See how that works?

Really, why are you even politicking here? This isn't a political forum. Amber's forum has liberals, conservatives, libertarians and folks who are apolitical, and neither you nor anyone else is going to change anyone's personal philosophy, so why create all the disturbance? Your non-political threads are really fun, why not have more fun instead of spewing your hate for the guy we elected to the white house?

I kind of agree with Bocefish. :whistle: And while this may not be a political forum I'm kind of surprised it hasn't come up considering, last I checked, MFC doesn't have a health insurance plan.
So American girls who only cam and support themselves with it as their only job, unless they are married to someone who has coverage for them, have to pay their own health insurance. And if they don't have health insurance? I think it's safe to assume some amount of camgirls do not... well under Obamacare now you have to. And if you don't? The goverment will hunt you down. I'm not even kidding.
Failure to comply with the fines first results in a suspended driver's license. (which boggles my fucking mind because your license is part of your state, not federal goverment.)
Then if that doesn't work, they put a lien on your house. Cool. Many people who pay their own insurance already are seeing their plans canceled because they don't fit the new law's criteria. Who does that help? The fucking insurance companies that's who.

I wanted to like Obama. But this isn't about that. The idea behind this law is supposed to be "affordable healthcare" however, now that everyone is forced to buy healthcare insurance companies which are fucked up companies to begin with, can now charge anyone whatever the fuck they want. Unless you are part of the poorest working segment of the population, then the government will help you cover the costs. Wut.

I dunno to me it discourages independent business among a million other things that leave a bad taste in my mouth. Excessive government. Woooo.

On a side note, I don't like fox news, but i don't like nbc, abc or cnn news either. It's a pet peeve of mine when people use that old joke to dismiss things. Even if they act crazy, as least their up front about their crazy lol. All the tv news is shit. But what this lady is saying isn't actually wrong. Maybe she hates obama and has an attitude so that puts people off to it but...fuck. The bigger picture.

Do you have a link to where it says in the law that if you don't sign up, your drivers license will be suspended? First time I've heard this claim, and I've heard some pretty wild claims--usually from people who haven't read the law, but somehow know all about it.

All it is, is just like social security, everyone pays into it, otherwise it cannot work. That's what insurance means.

"up front about being crazy?" And that's a reason to accept ANYTHING they say? I agree that TV is probably the worst way to get news, but there are a few million other ways (okay, I exaggerate)

 

[Bocefish]

Failure to comply with the fines first results in a suspended driver's license. (which boggles my fucking mind because your license is part of your state, not federal goverment.)
Then if that doesn't work, they put a lien on your house. Cool. Many people who pay their own insurance already are seeing their plans canceled because they don't fit the new law's criteria. Who does that help? The fucking insurance companies that's who.

As of now, if you opt out or are unwilling to pay for whatever reason... the only way the IRS can collect is if you're due a refund at the end of the year. For those people that do not buy health insurance coverage, the federal government will deduct the tax penalty from a refund. If you don't have a refund, the Internal Revenue Service will send you a bill for that same amount, much like they do for any other taxes you may owe.

The thing that will be different about this fine, though, is there's not much the federal government can do after sending you this bill. The way the bill was written, they cannot garnish your wages or put a lien on your house. The tax penalty will, however, remain on your IRS bill in subsequent years accruing interest.

For Obamacare to work, the individual mandate relies on younger, healthy people enrolling (paying higher premiums) to help balance the costs for the sick and elderly. Once they find out healthy people would rather pay the fine or wait until they get sick to enroll, the penalties may change but that is currently the how the law is written.

 

[Nordling]

That's pretty accurate from what I've read. As far as suspending driver's licenses and huge liens and such, Snopes both points to where the false information comes from and gives their researched answer:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/penalty.asp

 

[JerryBoBerry]

But hypothetically won't it save money in the long run, on an individual level? Like you pay premiums now and if you have an accident or get sick, you won't wind up with a ginormous bill. Although I can certainly understand that when you can barely make ends meet, "in the long run" is not really feasible.

I would also be afraid of being at the mercy of the insurance company. I know sometimes getting hem to pay for things is like trying to get blood from a stone, so I wonder how many people will wind up thinking they're covered but actually not having the insurance company pay for it.

Thank you guys discussing with me, haha like I said I'm not super informed on this so I appreciate the info! :flags-canada: :flags-usa:

Will it save money in the long run? There's two answer to that and it depends on if you're asking on an individual level or the country as a whole.

On an individual level, who knows. Insurance is a gamble. If you are the sort who never gets sick and doesn't get into an accident, no. It will never be cheaper for you. It will simply be payments for nothing the rest of your life now. If you're the sort that goes to the doctor's every other Thursday then you'll be WAY ahead of the game.

As for the national level that answer is a definite no. It can only be more expensive.

Think about an individual insurance company's bottom line. They look at the expenses they pay out for every single person signed up with them and then add in a decent profit margin and that's what they charge to be in the plan. If they sold insurance for less than they paid out they would go out of business fast. So the insurance companies aren't going to magically charge you lower rates. What will happen is you'll get less benefits or whatever you're willing to compromise for because that's all they'll be able to give out under this plan and still be in business. And if the government subsidizes the insurance companies, then that still comes out of the pockets of the taxpayers as a whole. So even then it will still be more expensive.

Then there's governement itself. Anytime the government gets involved in anything there's bloat and waste that gets added in making it more expensive than a free market economy. And going forward there is no doubt politicians will twist this to make it even worse like they have every other social program in place.

Then there's just the basic economic principals to consider. Whenever a government entity imposes a price ceiling or floor in a free market system the price is artificially set resulting in negative impact on quantity and quality of services as well as drastically increased Deadweight Loss. Basically it's a loss of efficiency as a whole which means more expensive for the product delivered.

Here's a brief explanation of that for those interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadweight_loss

In economics, a deadweight loss (also known as excess burden or allocative inefficiency) is a loss of economic efficiency that can occur when equilibrium for a good or service is not Pareto optimal.
Causes of deadweight loss can include monopoly pricing (in the case of artificial scarcity), externalities, taxes or subsidies, and binding price ceilings or floors (including minimum wages). The term deadweight loss may also be referred to as the "excess burden" of monopoly or taxation.

So here we have a bloated government mandated program that will impose price ceilings resulting in an inefficient system. Yeah. This will be way more expensive for the country as a whole. Any one that thinks otherwise is living in a pipe dream.

 

[LuckySmiles]

ok fine. Maybe someone made up the license/house story but still. I'd maybe take my chances with a fine than pay and extra $200 a month. Here's a guesstimate calculator on costs. But you really don't know until you pick your provider and list your health issues/non issues.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09 ... calculator

it's not that cheap. Not even for low camscore people lol.
I think if you make less than $12,000 you don't really have to pay though. :?

Here's the thing. I can go and get my vagina inspected at the lady clinic every few months and pay less than $100 a visit without insurance to ensure everything's running smoothly. Because they receive government subsidies. That's part of why it's so cheap.

Couldn't they just make it work that way for everything?
As it stands if I need to go to a urgent care I'd pay out the ass for some simple bloodwork. But still, depending, less than a few hundred dollars. But I'm supposed to want to be forced to pay nearly $200 a month when I'm healthy? (Based on the calculator) under obamacare. I'll tell ya what if I didn't have that $200 I'd probably have to eat cheaper, shittier food and NEED more doctor visits then.

It's just not what people expected. And it is fucked up. And with the economy as it stands with so many people underemployed working part time jobs that don't cover insurance, it's enough to put them over the edge financially. Yes, if you had a horrible disease or accident it could be much worse. But it's less likely. But the outrageous medical expenses are the problem to begin with and they are created by the insurance companies

 

[NaNatasha]

I'm seriously confused as to how people still take Fox News seriously. This is what passes for journalism? It's lazy sensationalism at best, designed to scare people like my grandparents who are stuck in the McCarthy era.

Wait. There are people who take Fox News seriously?? Surely not

I find Fox News to be perversely entertaining in small doses. If you pretend it's all self-aware satire, it works on a comedic level if nothing else. And if you accept that it's a serious news station attempting to present unbiased news in earnest... then it still works on a comedic level :thumbleft:

Idk, I think it's almost better than The Onion. It's like a parody of a parody, but without realizing it; you can't beat that for humor.

 

[LuckySmiles]

If it makes people feel better, they rip obamacare to shreds on jon stewart and the colbert report too.

 

[Red7227]

She never paid a cent for her health care? Ya right. :roll:

She was a pensioner you fucking moron, prior to that she was a housewife, so no she never paid a cent.

It was paid for by others then. One way or another, the people pay for it, whether it be through taxes or privately.

Yes fucknuckle it was. And 1.5% from my dad's and I's income over a 6 year period income did not amount to the million dollars or whatever it cost, so the system works very well. Same principle as health or house insurance. Its not a difficult concept for anybody but you.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

She never paid a cent for her health care? Ya right. :roll:

She was a pensioner you fucking moron, prior to that she was a housewife, so no she never paid a cent.

It was paid for by others then. One way or another, the people pay for it, whether it be through taxes or privately.

Yes fucknuckle it was. And 1.5% from my dad's and I's income over a 6 year period income did not amount to the million dollars or whatever it cost, so the system works very well. Same principle as health or house insurance. Its not a difficult concept for anybody but you.

I don't think you're understanding the concept of 'others.' He wasn't referring to you or your family or even your entire town. He was referring to your country's general population. Yes, they all paid for it. That million didn't just magically appear because you have this wonderful fairy tale system of entitlements doled out to all the little people of the land. Everyone collectively paid it.

And you're getting mighty offended and worked up about a discussion of the AMERICAN healthcare system seeing as how it doesn't aeffect you in the least.

 

[Red7227]

She never paid a cent for her health care? Ya right. :roll:

She was a pensioner you fucking moron, prior to that she was a housewife, so no she never paid a cent.

It was paid for by others then. One way or another, the people pay for it, whether it be through taxes or privately.

Yes fucknuckle it was. And 1.5% from my dad's and I's income over a 6 year period income did not amount to the million dollars or whatever it cost, so the system works very well. Same principle as health or house insurance. Its not a difficult concept for anybody but you.

I don't think you're understanding the concept of 'others.' He wasn't referring to you or your family or even your entire town. He was referring to your country's general population. Yes, they all paid for it. That million didn't just magically appear because you have this wonderful fairy tale system of entitlements doled out to all the little people of the land. Everyone collectively paid it.

And you're getting mighty offended and worked up about a discussion of the AMERICAN healthcare system seeing as how it doesn't aeffect you in the least.

First, this is a conversation about the Australian health care system, and second, do you not have house or car insurance? Its not a difficult concept for the rest of the world. And I'm just calling bocefish names, its not like he doesn't deserve it most of the time

 

[Just Me]

ok fine. Maybe someone made up the license/house story but still. I'd maybe take my chances with a fine than pay and extra $200 a month. Here's a guesstimate calculator on costs. But you really don't know until you pick your provider and list your health issues/non issues.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09 ... calculator

it's not that cheap. Not even for low camscore people lol.
I think if you make less than $12,000 you don't really have to pay though. :?

Here's the thing. I can go and get my vagina inspected at the lady clinic every few months and pay less than $100 a visit without insurance to ensure everything's running smoothly. Because they receive government subsidies. That's part of why it's so cheap.

Couldn't they just make it work that way for everything?
As it stands if I need to go to a urgent care I'd pay out the ass for some simple bloodwork. But still, depending, less than a few hundred dollars. But I'm supposed to want to be forced to pay nearly $200 a month when I'm healthy? (Based on the calculator) under obamacare. I'll tell ya what if I didn't have that $200 I'd probably have to eat cheaper, shittier food and NEED more doctor visits then.

It's just not what people expected. And it is fucked up. And with the economy as it stands with so many people underemployed working part time jobs that don't cover insurance, it's enough to put them over the edge financially. Yes, if you had a horrible disease or accident it could be much worse. But it's less likely. But the outrageous medical expenses are the problem to begin with and they are created by the insurance companies

This is part of the problem and why health insurance and healthcare costs are so expensive now. Do you pay insurance for anything? Car? House? etc. You don't PLAN to have a car accident or burn down your house or apartment. Just as you can not guarantee that you will never have a car accident or fire in your home, you can not guarantee you will never get sick or injured. The people that can't afford the cost will get subsidies or qualify for medicaid (unless you live in a red state that turned down medicaid/medicare expansion, just because they don't like the president).

If it makes people feel better, they rip obamacare to shreds on jon stewart and the colbert report too.

Only the website and the roll out of being able to use the website to sign up. I am not sure why many people are conflating the two. The ACA has not started yet. Well, I know why the ideologues on the right are doing it. :lol: If the website doesn't work you can currently sign up on the phone or by mail.

I was surprised to find this article on the Foxnews website. Once in a while you can find a piece that goes against their right wing talking points. :thumbleft:

What I normally expect when you actually fact check a Foxnews broadcast or article.

Nationwide, this study estimates that premiums will remain stable. http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR189.html

Think about an individual insurance company's bottom line. They look at the expenses they pay out for every single person signed up with them and then add in a decent profit margin and that's what they charge to be in the plan. If they sold insurance for less than they paid out they would go out of business fast. So the insurance companies aren't going to magically charge you lower rates.

They are mandated on what that profit can be. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_1...to-spend-premiums-on-patients-or-pay-rebates/

 

[LuckySmiles]

My problem is that it's supposed to be affordable, and the idea, easier to live. If i made the exact amount of money that i do right now (which is not that much) back home in NY last year I'd be forced to pay $400 a month for health insurance according to the calculator. Which would likely render me homeless combined with the general higher costs of living. Even as someone who makes well above "poverty" income.

Yet somehow I think I'd run into more health issues without a roof.

Doesn't make sense to me. Yes I've paid car insurance but owning a car is a priviledge and no, I don't have one at the moment. It's not something I'm forced to pay for breathing.

 

[Sevrin]

Healthcare costs in the US are so high because you don't have a single-payer system, and because the system you have is designed to generate profits for shareholders who do not provide medical services, and campaign contributions for congressmen. Considering health outcomes in the US, you have pretty much the worst system in the developed world.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Healthcare costs in the US are so high because you don't have a single-payer system, and because the system you have is designed to generate profits for shareholders who do not provide medical services, and campaign contributions for congressmen. Considering health outcomes in the US, you have pretty much the worst system in the developed world.

Actually we rank 38 out of 190 on the WHO list. But thanks for a broad over generalization not based on anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heal ... th_systems

 

[Sevrin]

Healthcare costs in the US are so high because you don't have a single-payer system, and because the system you have is designed to generate profits for shareholders who do not provide medical services, and campaign contributions for congressmen. Considering health outcomes in the US, you have pretty much the worst system in the developed world.

Actually we rank 38 out of 190 on the WHO list. But thanks for a broad over generalization not based on anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heal ... th_systems

Noticed what countries are above the US, and which are below. There are not 190 countries that are considered "developed". Did you notice where the US ranks in per capita expenditure?

 

[rexcode]

Actually we rank 38 out of 190 on the WHO list. But thanks for a broad over generalization not based on anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heal ... th_systems

We rank number one in expenditure. You'd think we'd be at or near the top of the list for that kind of money, not just barely squeaking past Slovenia.

 

[Bocefish]

The Obama administration can't even roll out a simple website on time or anywhere NEAR budget, yet they expect people to trust them rationing their health care needs.





The overwhelming vast majority of Federal Government programs have failed, will continue to fail and are full of corruption.

The War on Poverty started in 1964. The Government had 47+ years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to “the professional poor” and they only want more.

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. The Government had 236+ years to get it right and now it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938. The Government had 73+ years to get it right and it is broke.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. The Government had 46+ years to get it right and they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970. The Government had 41+ years to get it right and it is broke.

The Government bailed out GM and it is failing again. Terrible decision. The US government has announced a plan to sell the remaining 300 million shares of preferred stock it bought to bail out General Motors. a $12 Billion loss.

Solyndra, after receiving $535 million from DOE, filed for bankruptcy protection

Democrats have been running our inner-cities for the past 30 to 40 years, and blacks are still complaining about the same problems. Detroit was driven to bankruptcy and other cities are on the same road to it. More than $7 trillion dollars have been spent on poverty programs since Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty with little, if any, impact on poverty.

The Government has EPICALLY FAILED in just about every “government service or adventure” it shoved down our throats while wastefully overspending our tax dollars.

YET THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WANTS AMERICANS TO BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM? :lol:

 

[Shaun__]

Quick question. Where is the video explaining the much better plan the republicans have ready to vote on?

 

[Bocefish]

World Health Care Satisfaction Rankings:

The United States, which came in sixth overall, was followed by Poland, Germany, Canada and Britain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 20252.html

 

[Shaun__]

World Health Care Satisfaction Rankings:

The United States, which came in sixth overall, was followed by Poland, Germany, Canada and Britain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 20252.html

NEW YORK, June 11 (Reuters) - Healthcare has improved in many countries in the last five years, but patients in South Korea, Argentina and Japan are the most satisfied with their medical care, according to an Ipsos poll released on Tuesday.

Are you saying we should copy South Korea, Argentina, and Japan?

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Quick question. Where is the video explaining the much better plan the republicans have ready to vote on?

Simple.

Completely wipe out the federal government all together. Start over only giving it the powers it was originally allowed in the constitution and none of those it usurped gradually along the way. Give all the power back to the individual states. Thus giving 50 choices to citizens and more closely resembling a free market system.

 

[Shaun__]

Quick question. Where is the video explaining the much better plan the republicans have ready to vote on?

Simple.

Completely wipe out the federal government all together. Start over only giving it the powers it was originally allowed in the constitution and none of those it usurped gradually along the way. Give all the power back to the individual states. Thus giving 50 choices to citizens and more closely resembling a free market system.

So you have no plan then.

 

[Bocefish]

World Health Care Satisfaction Rankings:

The United States, which came in sixth overall, was followed by Poland, Germany, Canada and Britain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 20252.html

NEW YORK, June 11 (Reuters) - Healthcare has improved in many countries in the last five years, but patients in South Korea, Argentina and Japan are the most satisfied with their medical care, according to an Ipsos poll released on Tuesday.

Are you saying we should copy South Korea, Argentina, and Japan?

What makes you think I'm saying that?

Perhaps you need help on your reading comprehension.

 

[Shaun__]

World Health Care Satisfaction Rankings:

The United States, which came in sixth overall, was followed by Poland, Germany, Canada and Britain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 20252.html

NEW YORK, June 11 (Reuters) - Healthcare has improved in many countries in the last five years, but patients in South Korea, Argentina and Japan are the most satisfied with their medical care, according to an Ipsos poll released on Tuesday.

Are you saying we should copy South Korea, Argentina, and Japan?

What makes you think I'm saying that?

Perhaps you need help on your reading comprehension.

You posted a link to an article showing which countries have the most popular healthcare.

 

[Bocefish]

World Health Care Satisfaction Rankings:

The United States, which came in sixth overall, was followed by Poland, Germany, Canada and Britain.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 20252.html

NEW YORK, June 11 (Reuters) - Healthcare has improved in many countries in the last five years, but patients in South Korea, Argentina and Japan are the most satisfied with their medical care, according to an Ipsos poll released on Tuesday.

Are you saying we should copy South Korea, Argentina, and Japan?

What makes you think I'm saying that?

Perhaps you need help on your reading comprehension.

You posted a link to an article showing which countries have the most popular healthcare.

Most popular? :naughty:

Try read it again.

 

[Shaun__]

Most popular? :naughty:

Try read it again.

Okay most satisfied.

 

[Bocefish]

Quick question. Where is the video explaining the much better plan the republicans have ready to vote on?

Simple.

Completely wipe out the federal government all together. Start over only giving it the powers it was originally allowed in the constitution and none of those it usurped gradually along the way. Give all the power back to the individual states. Thus giving 50 choices to citizens and more closely resembling a free market system.

So you have no plan then.

Nah, the free market doesn't work at all (sarcasm).

Imagine if all the bureaucracy was eliminated and CEOs, VPs, etc., weren't getting riduculously overpaid. Things can actually run rather efficiently.

 

[Nordling]

Quick question. Where is the video explaining the much better plan the republicans have ready to vote on?

Simple.

Completely wipe out the federal government all together. Start over only giving it the powers it was originally allowed in the constitution and none of those it usurped gradually along the way. Give all the power back to the individual states. Thus giving 50 choices to citizens and more closely resembling a free market system.

So you have no plan then.

And really, I don't think he's really talking about the Constitution--sounds more like the Articles of Confederation--which lead to chaos and failure. The founders who wrote the constitution, and created a federal republic KNEW already from past experience that a loose confederation does not work, so they designed a country with a strong central government.