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Trayvon Martin

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Bocefish said:
What we also know is that O'Mara APPARENTLY has medical records stating Zimmerman's nose was broken the night of the confrontation and provided the state with a copy. If you think that's not true, care to make a bet whether his nose was broken? :mrgreen:
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Seeing how long it was before he even went to a real doctor after the murder, who knows when his nose was allegedly broken? We do know that none of the photos or videos currently available show a nose that's anything but perfect; no swelling, no discoloration...NOTHING.
 
Also, I'm going to predict that if his nose WAS broken, it was a very minor nasal fracture, with some bleeding but no deformity or even swelling; treatment, if any, probably consisted of an ice pack and aspirin.
 
Bocefish said:
IIRC, he went to the doctor the following morning. There are varying degrees of broken/fractured noses. A buddy broke his in a car accident but didn't know for sure until it swelled up 3 days later and had x-rays.
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Exactly. And a very minor nasal fracture needs almost no medical attention. Pain relief and ice. And certainly not an excuse to murder someone.
 
Bocefish said:
Nobody said it was. It's the head banging that can scramble your brains, paralyze, and/or kill a person.
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From the photos available, the "lacerations" seem minor also. From what we know, I'm guessing that Zimmerman overreacted...people often do when in fights...which is another reason not to be carrying a loaded gun when out and about.
 
Bocefish said:
Here's the pertinent part of the Bond Hearing for anyone that hasn't seen it. The Prosecution's detective states Zim has inconsistencies in his story but doesn't state what they are. He did admit Zim's head injuries could be consistent with Zim's story, so we basically don't know anymore than before, except that Zim's medical records apparently prove he did in fact have a broken nose and head lacerations from the confrontation. O'Mara provided the state with a copy of the medical records so that should no longer be a mystery.

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well, he states some of the inconsistencies - Zimmerman has changed his story about how and when Trayvon went for the gun; it's at about 21 mins in. He admitted the head injuries COULD be consistent with being beaten on concrete, but he said in no uncertain terms that it was true that the injuries didn't match the story. He was stating it was possible to get those injuries from concrete, AND stating that the evidence STILL didn't fit the story.

Logic is hard.
 
That's basically what I said, minus the stupid little jab at the end. Oh ya, and I didn't capitalize COULD. :lol:

He never said how the injuries did not match Zim's story, so it's only his opinion until he can prove it.
 
Bocefish said:
That's basically what I said, minus the stupid little jab at the end. Oh ya, and I didn't capitalize COULD. :lol:

He never said how the injuries did not match Zim's story, so it's only his opinion until he can prove it.
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It's not his opinion, it's his testimony. There's a difference. They don't have to prove shit at this point, the last thing the prosecution wants to do is add to the mess of crap already out in the public domain. They're keeping their cards close to their chest until they're needed. They certainly weren't needed then, that was a BOND hearing and as soon as the prosecution tried to counter the defense's dirty little trick of calling unprepared witnesses to testify on unrelated stuff, the judge said "save it for the trial".

Tell me, what point was there other than propaganda for O'Mara to call the lead investigator to the stand, with no warning or preperation other than media manipulation? What point was there for Zimmerman to look over at the media and give his trite little apology that he KNEW beforehand the family didn't want to hear from him? It's all just bullshit PR.
 
Bocefish said:
Heck, the gumshoe could testify that pigs can fly for all it matters right now. It's still their ultimate burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zim was not in fear for his life or serious bodily harm.
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Right, which is pretty straightforward once they show his injuries don't match his story.
 
Seems like the Owens beating was a neighborhood dispute that had been brewing for years and only one stupid beeotch decided to yell "that was for Trayvon" as she was fleeing in her vehicle.

There is a video @ http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/25/m ... r-3674943/

MOBILE, Alabama --
Mobile Police made their first arrest in the mob beating of Matthew Owens. 44-year-old Terry Rawls surrendered Wednesday on assault charges.

"This here is an ongoing dispute with neighbors, that's what this is," explained Corporal Chris Levy with the Mobile Police Department.

Police say the tension between Owens and Rawls had been escalating for three years. In fact, that wasn't the first time police were called to Delmar Drive. Police say Rawls has attacked Owens before, but charges were never filed because they say Owens instigated it.

"Unfortunately that's what this is, and these things can lead to violence and that's what happened," said Levy.

Matthew Owens suffered severe head injuries and was taken to USA Medical Center after witnesses say a mob of 20 or so people attacked him with paint cans, pipes, and chairs across the street from his sister's house. But police only expect to arrest three more people. They claim most of the mob were just bystanders.

"What we know is that Mr. Owens was fussing at some kids about playing basketball in the street," said Levy. "These kids then went back and told their parents about the exchange they had with Mr. Owens, who were having a get together down the street, came down to where Mr. Owens is, and there was a series of racial slurs exchanged, and there was a fight."

Witnesses claim one of those attackers screamed, "That's justice for Trayvon" as she drove away. That comment has created has created an uproar nationwide, but police say Florida's Trayvon Martin case has nothing to do with this.

"I can tell you without a doubt 100 percent that the Trayvon Martin case was not the motivating factor, said Levy. "That 100 percent, it is an ongoing incident between people that have been fighting for a few years now."
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I read a news report yesterday that he was "fussing" at them with a pair of "kitchen knives", which kinda gives the whole thing a slightly different spin, and yeah apparently this is just the latest in a long saga between that guy and his neighbours.
 
This is all I have to add to this thread.
 

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Here's my take on this thing.

NONE of us really knows what happened. I guess that's why they have trials.

My guess is that Zimmerman was NOT a stone-cold KKK racist killer as the Trayvon camp has tried to portray him. I also suspect Trayvon was NOT the sweet 12-year old choir boy that we see in most of the pictures.

In reality, we likely had two guys who probably both made a series of bad decisions and then lost their temper. One (or both) of them started to get physical, and in the end, the guy with the gun walked away.

So Trayvon ends up dead, and Zimmerman will almost certainly serve time for something, though whether it will be something major or something relatively minor, only time will tell.
 
I haven't really seen the Trayvon camp portray him as some secret racist neo-nazi, I've thought the parents have acted with a lot of dignity seeing as what they've had to go through.\

It's so easy to get caught up in the debate over whether Zimmerman profiled him or Trayvon was an angel or whatever that we start looking past the basic circumstances. It's the basic circumstances of this case that are SO outrageous, and have ignited outrage since day one.

A 17 year old, unarmed kid, walking in the early evening in a place he has every right to be on the way home from a store is reported by neighbourhood watch to police as suspicious, and a few minutes later he's DEAD. Think about that. Unarmed minor, walking along, shot dead. Think about it again. In public, not doing anything wrong just walking along, the guy pursues him on foot and is told not to, a few minutes we're not certain about but unarmed kid on his way home from the store is dead less than 100 yards from where he was staying.

Zimmerman doesn't have to be some crazy KKK killer for that to be fucked up, but remember also while everyone thinks it's unlikely that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded killer - we're being asked to believe Trayvon was. This 17 year old unarmed guy walking home is supposed to have turned psycho all of a sudden and tried to beat an older, more experienced man to death. How the GODDAMN is that any more likely??!

I think it's very difficult for people to get their head around such a drastic and unlikely turn of events within the space of 5 minutes that would turn a kid trying to outrun the guy following him into a crazed killer deserving of deadly force.

Based on what we know of the events Zimmerman is asking us to believe a really tall story, one that paints him as a victim which let's face it, is completely in his best interest. Oh and he killed the only other witness apparently.
 
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lexmark402003 said:
My guess is that Zimmerman was NOT a stone-cold KKK racist killer as the Trayvon camp has tried to portray him. I also suspect Trayvon was NOT the sweet 12-year old choir boy that we see in most of the pictures.
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You don't have to be a klansman to do something that's fucked up, and I've not seen people in the "Trayvon camp" make that accusation. So let's not be giving credit to that hateful group.

As for the "Trayvon camp," I think they've done a good job of "keeping their cool" and handling everything with grace...much better than I probably would've reacted after having my son shot to death.

If you want to talk about racists, talk about the people on the internet making jokes about Trayvon's mom, calling her a 'monkey' who "has nothing to cry about." :roll:

And you don't have to be a "choir boy" for people with common sense to realize that your death was a tragic one that happened way too soon. The more I hear people say "Well Trayvon wasn't a saint, ya know" (who the hell said he was? LOL...), the more I think they're just trying to make themselves feel better about the tragedy. Um, yeah, most people aren't saints...thanks for pointing out the obvious. :thumbleft:
 
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My last post isn't intended to single you out or pick on you, lexmark. I'm just a little annoyed at seeing posts that seem to scream out THE DEAD KID WASN'T A SAINT...THE DEAD KID WASN'T A SAINT...THE DEAD KID WASN'T A SAINT...

Well of course not, but who is saying he was???

Okay...we GET it...let's cushion the blow by trying to prove to ourselves (and each other) that the deceased was a "bad kid." Yeah, that's it...that way, we can all sleep a little better at night.
 
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Also I was meaning to ask one of the gun people...is it normal to use hollow-points in a handgun you carry around for self-defense? It seems kinda brutal...to me anyway.
 
Yes, if it's also your primary home self-defense weapon.

A hollow point is often intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target. It is also used for controlled penetration, where over-penetration could cause collateral damage (such as on an aircraft or in a home). In target shooting, they are used for greater accuracy and reduction of smoke, fouling, and lead vapour exposure, as hollow point bullets have an enclosed base while traditional bullets have an exposed lead base. In essence, the hollow point bullet has several purposes: hollow points designed to expand increase in size once within the target, thus maximizing tissue damage and blood loss or shock, and to remain inside the target, thereby transferring all of its kinetic energy to that target (some fraction would remain in the bullet if it passed through instead).
 
hmm ok, just that hollow points are specifically designed to cause maximum casualty to a target - which is why they're not even used in war.
 
Bocefish said:
A 5.56 NATO round can go in your ankle and come out your ear too, so what. LEOs also use HPs to minimize collateral damage.
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Well as to the "so what", hollow-points are widely considered to be unethical because their sole purpose (the collateral damage thing is just a bonus unless you're fighting on a submarine, or shooting a suspect surrounded by civilians) is to cause massive internal trauma to the victim.

FMJ bullets obviously can still pierce a vital organ but they're not going to bounce around pulping everything inside..

Presumably by "collateral damage" you're referring to bystanders rather than say, your living room wall.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Bocefish said:
A 5.56 NATO round can go in your ankle and come out your ear too, so what. LEOs also use HPs to minimize collateral damage.
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Well as to the "so what", hollow-points are widely considered to be unethical because their sole purpose (the collateral damage thing is just a bonus unless you're fighting on a submarine, or shooting a suspect surrounded by civilians) is to cause massive internal trauma to the victim.

FMJ bullets obviously can still pierce a vital organ but they're not going to bounce around pulping everything inside..

Presumably by "collateral damage" you're referring to bystanders rather than say, your living room wall.
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Hollow points are safer that the alternative. They are less likely to go through walls and hit people not involved in the situation. The fact that they do more damage to the target is just a bye product, not the other way around. Their sole purpose to break up inside the body and not leave the body with any meaningful velocity. (Bullets wouldn't be able to pierce a submarine hull, by the way, they are made to withstand thousands of pounds per square inch of water pressure. Bullets would hardly make a dent.)

I took a law enforcement class in high school, and one of the main points they stressed was that a police officer did not draw his gun unless his intent was to kill. When an officer is shooting at someone they are shooting to kill, not injure, but kill. So the fact that hollow points do more damage than normal just goes along with this intent. It's not like police officers are shooting people who are only dying because they are shot with hollow points, they would die regardless, this just speeds it up. Usually, the quick death is a mercy.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Bocefish said:
A 5.56 NATO round can go in your ankle and come out your ear too, so what. LEOs also use HPs to minimize collateral damage.
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Well as to the "so what", hollow-points are widely considered to be unethical because their sole purpose (the collateral damage thing is just a bonus unless you're fighting on a submarine, or shooting a suspect surrounded by civilians) is to cause massive internal trauma to the victim.

FMJ bullets obviously can still pierce a vital organ but they're not going to bounce around pulping everything inside..

Presumably by "collateral damage" you're referring to bystanders rather than say, your living room wall.
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The rounds the military use are worse. They tumble once inside the body and do much worse damage. The goal in using them is to leave a injured person incapable of doing anything other than consuming your enemies' resources. Hollow points would also be inferior to use in piercing body armor.

The main thing in personal defense is stopping power. If the bullet simply passed threw the victim you may not stop them or could injure the person behind them. You may think it is cruel to hurt the person you are shooting, but that is the reason you are shooting at them.
 
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Well no, hollow-point and similar rounds are prohibited from use in war because they're designed to cause maximum trauma and/or death. Obviously, no bullet is nice to get shot with but the jist of it is, if soldiers are going to shoot each other the least they could do is not use ammo calculated to cause the highest and most serious casualty rate.

This has as much to do with effective medical treatment as it does with the bullet's action inside the body.

Anyway the fact is, a FMJ round is less likely to deviate once it hits resistance, and more likely to pass through. JHP are designed to expand and/or fragment to cause as much damage as possible.
 
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