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lolz @ this. I know this is untrue because if a model is being harassed by a member like I have been, model support has no issue telling you any other usernames/accounts he has on the site. In some extreme cases I have even been told the user's real name.

Wait, so just to clarify: if a model claims to be being harassed by an mfc member, then it's possible (in some extreme cases -- whatever counts as "extreme") for her to get the member's real name from mfc support?

Is that really true?

If that is true, then I'd have to wonder (a) how would mfc get the user's real name in the first place, and (b) what gives them the justification (legal or otherwise) to divulge that information to a third party (in this particular case a model with a genuine grievance, but one could easily imagine a range of other cases involving other third parties with less noble intentions).

I'm not necessarily doubting your claim, Tilly, it's just that if what you say is true then that potentially raises some privacy issues for mfc members that I was previously unaware of.
 
Wait, so just to clarify: if a model claims to be being harassed by an mfc member, then it's possible (in some extreme cases -- whatever counts as "extreme") for her to get the member's real name from mfc support?

Is that really true?

If that is true, then I'd have to wonder (a) how would mfc get the user's real name in the first place, and (b) what gives them the justification (legal or otherwise) to divulge that information to a third party (in this particular case a model with a genuine grievance, but one could easily imagine a range of other cases involving other third parties with less noble intentions).

I'm not necessarily doubting your claim, Tilly, it's just that if what you say is true then that potentially raises some privacy issues for mfc members that I was previously unaware of.

Brings up privacy issues for members as when information.ation is used to protect cam lady. That makes sense. Oh but my privacy! Ohh woe is me! Don't be a shit bag and you won't have to worry. Privacy is nothing when it comes to protecting the safety of others.

Mfc can check claims. So they aren't unwarranted.t hey aren't going to give over info if a girl is like "this dude was mean!"

I would say this is most extreme case in that a camgirl needs to report to police or get an order of restraint. As in dude is threatening to out her, rape her, kill her or harm her family. Has been stalking her in real life.

I've had a member know all my personal all info. Address. Legal name. Everything. Didn't threaten me in a anyway. But if he had i would sure as shit want mfc to give me his info so I could go to the poli e.

I would think of it more of a liability if mfc didn't give the info.

Safety of models should be the first priority.
 
I'm wondering why some think a new e-mail account and ip address wouldn't work. Not understanding how it wouldn't. How would mfc prevent it from happening? Was funnier to not tell the guy but now I'm curious.
 
In the sort of extreme case that Serenity_Tam describes, I certainly think that mfc has a moral obligation to do anything in their power to ensure the safety of the model, including divulging the offending member's personal information (under the expectation that it would be used to press charges, or file a restraining order, and not used to send out hired goons to break their arms, even if that's maybe what they deserve). Whether it would be legal for mfc to do that is another question, and one which I am unqualified to answer, but am curious to learn about. But that's a discussion for another thread.

That sort of extreme case isn't what I was wondering about, though. I was wondering about what sorts of other cases, if any, mfc will give personal information to a third party (an individual model, a studio with sketchy ties to criminal organizations, advertising companies, etc...). Anyways, shortly after I made my initial post, I re-read mfc's privacy policy. It answers most of the questions I had about what sorts of situations mfc will consider disclosing personal information. So that mostly settles that.

Don't be a shit bag

I try...
 
Wait, so just to clarify: if a model claims to be being harassed by an mfc member, then it's possible (in some extreme cases -- whatever counts as "extreme") for her to get the member's real name from mfc support?

Is that really true?

If that is true, then I'd have to wonder (a) how would mfc get the user's real name in the first place, and (b) what gives them the justification (legal or otherwise) to divulge that information to a third party (in this particular case a model with a genuine grievance, but one could easily imagine a range of other cases involving other third parties with less noble intentions).

I'm not necessarily doubting your claim, Tilly, it's just that if what you say is true then that potentially raises some privacy issues for mfc members that I was previously unaware of.

I'm in a bit of a rush but I felt I need to reply. Yes, what I wrote is true, at least in my case. MFC's quality of model support depends solely on the length of time the model has been around, and of course they can verify your "claims". They're not throwing around members' info to models for no reason. In my case, this was affecting me in a very serious way, so I was happy that they were helpful to me. There was a time when I was a new model that I had a similar experience and they were not helpful at all. Now that I'm practically a veteran on the site I get treated slightly better. To explain what was happening exactly: basically getting trolled with anon tip notes, so I can't ban or ignore the user. Just have to put up with their abuse. In some cases that can be mild, trollish behavior. In other cases this can range to a bit more serious to downright dangerous and freaky. Things I should not and will not put up with while I am at work. In these instances, MFC has been helpful letting me know who the user was, their other usernames, and yes, in very extreme cases where my safety could've been compromised, they told me the user's real name. I am not the only model they have done this for. They are not doing it frivolously. You have to take into consideration some of the many ways cam models are harassed, stalked, etc. and realize that the camsite really should do something about it to help. Also, MFC is getting the usernames linked together by IP address, and your name from your credit card info, obviously. For a guest or basic this would not be applicable. They wouldn't be able to harass me anyway because they can't send messages, tip notes, or type in chat.
 
From MFC's privacy policy

We reserve the right to disclose your personally information as required by law and when we believe that disclosure is necessary to protect our rights and/or comply with a judicial proceeding, court order, or legal process served on us. We believe it is necessary to share information in order to investigate, prevent, or take action regarding illegal activities, suspected fraud, situations involving potential threats to the physical safety of any person, violations of our Terms and Conditions, or as otherwise required by law.

It's a little iffy in that they don't say that they won't share your information with anyone but law enforcement. It's also confusing when they also stated the following.

We do not rent, sell, or share your personal information with any third-parties. The only persons with access to your personal information are high-level MFC employees on a "need-to-know" basis.

Models aren't technically "high-level employees", but rather "third-parties" for the purposes of this discussion.

Anyway, if a member or anyone else starts menacing models, I think they've given up their right to complete anonymity. Fuck'em.
 
Brings up privacy issues for members as when information.ation is used to protect cam lady. That makes sense. Oh but my privacy! Ohh woe is me! Don't be a shit bag and you won't have to worry. Privacy is nothing when it comes to protecting the safety of others.

Mfc can check claims. So they aren't unwarranted.t hey aren't going to give over info if a girl is like "this dude was mean!"

I would say this is most extreme case in that a camgirl needs to report to police or get an order of restraint. As in dude is threatening to out her, rape her, kill her or harm her family. Has been stalking her in real life.

I've had a member know all my personal all info. Address. Legal name. Everything. Didn't threaten me in a anyway. But if he had i would sure as shit want mfc to give me his info so I could go to the poli e.

I would think of it more of a liability if mfc didn't give the info.

Safety of models should be the first priority.

If a member's being a shitbag and gets outed then I have little sympathy for him. Buuuuuuut, I don't think MFC should be giving people's real names out, be they models or members. What's to stop a model lying about being harassed in order to find out a member's real name? What's to stop a member lying to MFC about a model threatening them and needing their real name to report them? Just seems like a slippery slope to me.
 
If a member's being a shitbag and gets outed then I have little sympathy for him. Buuuuuuut, I don't think MFC should be giving people's real names out, be they models or members. What's to stop a model lying about being harassed in order to find out a member's real name? What's to stop a member lying to MFC about a model threatening them and needing their real name to report them? Just seems like a slippery slope to me.

I would imagine that MFC take a look at chat logs and MFC mails etc to verify the claim in some way. I doubt even the longest serving and highest earning model can just say to MFC "hey give me this guys real details" and they just hand it over.

General rule - Don't be a dick. Don't have any problems.
 
If a member's being a shitbag and gets outed then I have little sympathy for him. Buuuuuuut, I don't think MFC should be giving people's real names out, be they models or members. What's to stop a model lying about being harassed in order to find out a member's real name? What's to stop a member lying to MFC about a model threatening them and needing their real name to report them? Just seems like a slippery slope to me.
Chats, tip notes, MFC mails and pms are all archived. It would be very easy for MFC to verify that the member is in fact being threatening or dangerous to a level at which they may deem important to disclose information. Without this in site archive as proof I would highly doubt they would do much.
 
I guess if there's insurmountable proof in MFC's archives and chat logs of threats and abuse, that would justify releasing the information. If there's stuff happening off-site though, that makes things a little more difficult.
I'd bet my last cookie that they would do anything for off site harassment.
 
Seems very careless for mfc to give out info without first having authorities involved and attempting to verify card owner and member are the same person. Don't need vigilante justice against what could be innocent people. I'd like to believe mfc took it directly to authorities themselves in extreme cases after being notified but who would that even be? Local authorities I assume could be sent proof and a potential culprit could be investigated using cc info but I'm not sure what else could be done without more proof.

In any case you ever feel yourself to be in danger, buy guns. Go to your local police station and report it but prepare as if they won't be willing or able to do much to help. Buy a few big dogs too. Just don't be one of those assholes that has a pit or rottweiler cooped up all day.
 
In these instances, MFC has been helpful letting me know who the user was, their other usernames, and yes, in very extreme cases where my safety could've been compromised, they told me the user's real name. I am not the only model they have done this for. They are not doing it frivolously.

Thanks for clarifying things a bit, Tilly. It's helpful to know a bit more about the kinds of situations where mfc will disclose member's personal information to models. It's also interesting hear that they have done this for other models (and it's also disturbing, since it means that very serious cases where a model's safety is at risk are a bit more prevalent than I expected). I have no idea how you models put up with some of the crap that members hurl at you.

It's a little iffy in that they don't say that they won't share your information with anyone but law enforcement.

I agree, and that gets back to my question about mfc's justification for giving member's names to models in these cases. In general I don't have a problem with personal information being shared with law enforcement as part of an ongoing investigation or due to a court order (with some important exceptions that I won't get into here). But I find it potentially problematic when mfc is sharing personal information with third parties (models) especially since their privacy policy categorically states that they do not share personal information with third parties. (This of course assumes that models are classified as third-parties, though it's not clear that they are. Perhaps they are classified as "low-level" employees, in which case sharing information with models would contradict the privacy policy's claims that the only persons with access to personal information are high-level employees.)

Perhaps the optimal solution in this sort of case, that balances privacy and security, would be for mfc to directly provide the relevant law enforcement agency with the member's personal information, and not provide it directly to the model to do with as they please. Of course, given the abysmal record of law enforcement in dealing with threats posted on the internet, I'm skeptical that this approach would do much of substance to improve the model's security situation.
 
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The privacy policy also states that they reserve the right to disclose information to "protect their rights" so I wouldn't really say it categorically states anything. I can see where a model could potentially use a members information to blackmail them or something, but I imagine that same information would also be necessary to take out a proper restraining order, so I am perfectly comfortable with the idea of there being a mechanism for the information to be released. And while "don't do anything wrong and you won't have anything to worry about" is about the least assuring thing one can hear, MFC seems to take the privacy of the models seriously, and I don't have any reason to believe they are careless with member information, despite the fact that nobody appears to have proofed their privacy policy.
 
@OP
Assuming all that is true and you've really learned your lesson, if your ban is anything like mine, you can likely get back with a different card number but you'll have to start a brand new account. (long story short I also spent thousands (which means nothing), contested one $50 charge, support banned my account and basically responded by saying their records are never wrong, attempting to pay required a photocopy of my ID which was no where in their wiki rules at that time, new card same name same address no ID and I could create a new account :/ ).
 
Blizzard (World of Warcraft, etc) has been known to contact user's local law enforcement directly when informed of verifiable threats of violence, including threats of self-harm. I've been told that they have trained employees 24/7 for which crisis counseling and this contact is one of their primary responsibilities. While the member-model relationship is obviously less even than the player-player relationship, I think that in an ideal world camsites would take a similar approach.
 
Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion started by Tilly's post. I think there are some interesting questions here about whether mfc has violated its privacy policy, and as to whether they should be providing models with member's real names in certain cases. Regardless, I think it's clear that mfc officially supports a policy like the following, whether they explicitly state it or not:

If mfc has evidence that a member has harassed, threatened, or is behaving in a way that may compromise the safety of a (sufficiently well-established) mfc model, then mfc reserves the right to provide said model with the member's real name, for her to do with as she sees fit.

We can debate whether mfc should have a policy like this, but in any case from now on I'll operate under the assumption that this is official mfc policy. It won't change my behavior on mfc in the slightest, since I've never come remotely close to harassing or threatening a model, and always do my best to be polite and treat models with respect. However, I can't help but wonder if some other, less respectful, members might change their behavior if they knew that they might face real-world consequences for being d-bags to models.
 
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How many instances of a model using a member info to blackmail them have you heard of?

And how many cases of members using a models info to blackmail, dox them, stalk them, etc?

It really isn't that difficult to prove to MFC that a member has malicious intentions towards you and has threatened you. If MFC didn't help in any way they can they would be accomplices.

Truth is there is a imbalance in power between members and models. Members can see the face of a model, the inside of her apartment, what can be seen from her window, and much more personal info that they would otherwise never have access to. Think about it, I am real life friends with people who have never seen what my apartment looks like.

In contrast a model never sees a members face, apartment, or anything else whatsoever, you are WellHung4You69, a shapeless entity that types words in her chat. Multiply it by 1000 and there is a good chance at least one of these entities might be a little crazy.

MFC needs to protect the safety of its models because by nature they are already quite exposed.
 
MFC needs to protect the safety of its models because by nature they are already quite exposed.

I agree! The safety and privacy of models is something that I take very seriously, and I think that mfc has an obligation to do what it reasonably can (within certain constraints) to ensure the safety and privacy of its models.

The issue here, as I take it, is to what extent mfc is justified in going to protect the safety of its models (there must be some limitations -- the question is what they should be). In particular, is mfc justified in adopting the following policy, which I think that we can reasonably infer that mfc endorses, given what Tilly has said:

If mfc has evidence that a member has harassed, threatened, or is behaving in a way that may compromise the safety of a (sufficiently well-established) mfc model, then mfc reserves the right to provide said model with the member's real name, for her to do with as she sees fit.

I'm reluctant to support this policy, largely on the grounds that I think that one could probably argue that it violates mfc's privacy policy (or at least plays fast and loose with it). If that's the case, then that raises serious questions about how much confidence any of us should have in the privacy policy. If mfc are willing to violate it in this sort of case, what's to say the won't violate it in other kinds of cases? Since ALL of us (members and models) trust mfc with important personal information, this is the sort of thing all of us should be concerned about.

My own view is that the above quoted policy is problematic, and should be replaced by something like this:

If mfc has evidence that a member has harassed, threatened, or is behaving in a way that mfc determines may seriously compromise the safety of any mfc model, then mfc reserves the right to provide appropriate law-enforcement agencies with information including, but not necessarily limited to, the member's chat logs, mfc mails, alternate usernames, and uniquely identifying personal information (including the member's real name and address) for the purposes of assisting the model in taking the appropriate legal action to ensure her safety.

I think I'd be cool with something like this. It is more clearly consistent with mfc privacy policy, so that likely solves the privacy problem. From my view, it also looks like at a minimum it would be no worse than the current policy with regards to ensuring that the appropriate parties outside of mfc have relevant information pertaining to the member (since we're assuming that models would only use a member's real name to provide information to the police -- right?).

Anyways, I'd love to hear what models on here think of this alternate policy that I've suggested. Would it adequately address your concerns about safety? Or do you have another policy that you'd like to propose?
 
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I agree! The safety and privacy of models is something that I take very seriously, and I think that mfc has an obligation to do what it reasonably can (within certain constraints) to ensure the safety and privacy of its models.

The issue here, as I take it, is to what extent mfc is justified in going to protect the safety of its models (there must be some limitations -- the question is what they should be). In particular, is mfc justified in adopting the following policy, which I think that we can reasonably infer that mfc endorses, given what Tilly has said:



I'm reluctant to support this policy, largely on the grounds that I think that one could probably argue that it violates mfc's privacy policy (or at least plays fast and loose with it). If that's the case, then that raises serious questions about how much confidence any of us should have in the privacy policy. If mfc are willing to violate it in this sort of case, what's to say the won't violate it in other kinds of cases? Since ALL of us (members and models) trust mfc with important personal information, this is the sort of thing all of us should be concerned about.

My own view is that the above quoted policy is problematic, and should be replaced by something like this:

If mfc has evidence that a member has harassed, threatened, or is behaving in a way that mfc determines may seriously compromise the safety of any mfc model, then mfc reserves the right to provide appropriate law-enforcement agencies with information including, but not necessarily limited to, the member's chat logs, mfc mails, alternate usernames, and uniquely identifying personal information (including the member's real name and address).

I think I'd be cool with something like this. It is more clearly consistent with mfc privacy policy, so that likely solves the privacy problem. From my view, it also looks like at a minimum it would be no worse than the current policy with regards to ensuring that the appropriate parties outside of mfc have relevant information pertaining to the member (since we're assuming that models would only use a member's real name to provide information to the police -- right?).

Anyways, I'd love to hear what models on here think of this alternate policy that I've suggested. Would it adequately address your concerns about safety? Or do you have another policy that you'd like to propose?

If I understand correctly your problem is not that MFC releases personal info to models when a member threatens them (you seem to find that reasonable) but the fact that it conflicts with a clause in their ToS?

Sounds to me like an obsession with minutia. But if we are going to nitpick MFC's ToS and privacy clauses, let's do it right

MFCtos.jpg

So you see, the green part of the clause refers to people who use the site correctly, don't do illegal things, don't threat others, and abide by their rules. Under this circumstance MFC won't share your info with any third parties.

But once you break the rules, the pink portion of the clause kicks in. Then and only then will MFC share your info when you break the law, break the ToS, or pose a security threat to any person.

I don't think there is any ambiguity on MFCs ToS. But if you still find it problematic then maybe it is time to close your account and find a different site.
 
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If I understand correctly your problem is not that MFC releases personal info to models when a member threatens them (you seem to find that reasonable) but the fact that it conflicts with a clause in their ToS?

Sounds to me like an obsession with minutia. But if we are going to nitpick MFC's ToS and privacy clauses, let's do it right

View attachment 63478

So you see, the green part of the clause refers to people who use the site correctly, don't do illegal things, don't threat others, and abide by their rules. Under this circumstance MFC won't share your info with any third parties.

But once you break the rules, the pink portion of the clause kicks in. Then and only then will MFC share your info when you break the law, break the ToS, or pose a security threat to any person.

I don't think there is any ambiguity on MFCs ToS. But if you still find it problematic then maybe it is time to close your account and find a different site.
I also assumed the verbiage in the green section was more so saying they won't give/share/sell your information to mailing lists or whatnot. Meaning you're not going to get signed up for Daily Cat Facts by being a member at MFC.
 
Thanks for the reply, supermila. You may be correct in saying that I'm obsessing over minutiae. But I have the day off, it's too hot outside to go out without me spontaneously combusting, and I find this topic somewhat interesting. Also, I'd just like to emphasize that while I may be nitpicking about details, I think that we're largely in agreement, and that our end goals are probably the same (having an online environment to meet and interact in which all participants can be assured of reasonable degrees of personal safety and privacy). The source of any disagreement we're having can be traced back to a very very narrow range of cases. It's like we've all agreed to go to Applebees for dinner, to collectively order the lemon chicken, a pasta salad, two burgers and a pizza, and now we're in a seemingly intractable disagreement about whether we should meet for dinner at 6:30 or at 6:35.

So you see, the green part of the clause refers to people who use the site correctly, don't do illegal things, don't threat others, and abide by their rules. Under this circumstance MFC won't share your info with any third parties.

But once you break the rules, the pink portion of the clause kicks in.

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure why one would assume that the green part takes priority over the pink part (or vice versa). There's no text on the mfc wiki that I'm aware of that indicates this (and if there is, I'd certainly like to see it). But like I said, I'm no lawyer!

As an aside: throughout most of this discussion I've been assuming that models are considered third-parties. However, this may be mistaken (and if it is, might require me to change my position on the issue). So, to any models out there, can you conclusively say what your status is as far as mfc is concerned? (In particular, are you clearly not a third-party?). Thanks.
 
Thanks for the reply, supermila. You may be correct in saying that I'm obsessing over minutiae. But I have the day off, it's too hot outside to go out without me spontaneously combusting, and I find this topic somewhat interesting. Also, I'd just like to emphasize that while I may be nitpicking about details, I think that we're largely in agreement, and that our end goals are probably the same (having an online environment to meet and interact in which all participants can be assured of reasonable degrees of personal safety and privacy). The source of any disagreement we're having can be traced back to a very very narrow range of cases. It's like we've all agreed to go to Applebees for dinner, to collectively order the lemon chicken, a pasta salad, two burgers and a pizza, and now we're in a seemingly intractable disagreement about whether we should meet for dinner at 6:30 or at 6:35.



I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure why one would assume that the green part takes priority over the pink part (or vice versa). There's no text on the mfc wiki that I'm aware of that indicates this (and if there is, I'd certainly like to see it). But like I said, I'm no lawyer!

As an aside: throughout most of this discussion I've been assuming that models are considered third-parties. However, this may be mistaken (and if it is, might require me to change my position on the issue). So, to any models out there, can you conclusively say what your status is as far as mfc is concerned? (In particular, are you clearly not a third-party?). Thanks.
I wouldn't consider us third parties. As I mentioned before, I think that section may be referring to outside companies being able to obtain MFC users' info. But like you, IANAL and am just sharing my assumption.
 
[QUOTE="LTlurkerFTposter]I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure why one would assume that the green part takes priority over the pink part (or vice versa). There's no text on the mfc wiki that I'm aware of that indicates this (and if there is, I'd certainly like to see it). But like I said, I'm no lawyer![/QUOTE]

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand this. The first clause is a general type of sentence. The second clause begins with "we reserve the right to" which is a conditional type of sentence referring to exceptions.

When a restaurant says "we reserve the right to refuse service" it is usually followed by the conditions you need to follow in order to be given service, for example, they may say "to costumers that break the dress code". In the case of MFC the first clause is "we will not share your info" and the second one describes the exceptions: "Unless you break the rules, you threaten anyone, or we have a judicial order"

Regarding models being third parties, I think they are, models are contractors, not employees.
 
How many instances of a model using a member info to blackmail them have you heard of?

And how many cases of members using a models info to blackmail, dox them, stalk them, etc?

I think it's fair to say that models have more to fear where their personal information is concerned, but that doesn't mean that members should waive all rights to their privacy. If MFC were frivolously handing member information to models, then there would be legitimate cause for concern, but it doesn't look like that is what is happening.

Also, I think "share" means exchange, rather than disseminate.
 
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lolz @ this. I know this is untrue because if a model is being harassed by a member like I have been, model support has no issue telling you any other usernames/accounts he has on the site. In some extreme cases I have even been told the user's real name.
Wow. Now that's concerning. I don't think I fall into that category (I have better things to do than harass models) but I am also sad enough to count myself as one of the few to have read MFCs privacy policy. I don't recall reading that they reserve the right to disclose your personal information to performers. I'm not sure that any situation should warrant that disclosure and it sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Seems very careless for mfc to give out info without first having authorities involved and attempting to verify card owner and member are the same person. Don't need vigilante justice against what could be innocent people. I'd like to believe mfc took it directly to authorities themselves in extreme cases after being notified but who would that even be? Local authorities I assume could be sent proof and a potential culprit could be investigated using cc info but I'm not sure what else could be done without more proof.

In any case you ever feel yourself to be in danger, buy guns. Go to your local police station and report it but prepare as if they won't be willing or able to do much to help. Buy a few big dogs too. Just don't be one of those assholes that has a pit or rottweiler cooped up all day.
Exactly my feelings. This isn't an argument of morality but one of the legality and transparency. The "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no reason to be afraid" argument doesn't wash with me. If MFC is operating in this way then they should be transparent about it.
 
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Exactly my feelings. This isn't an argument of morality but one of the legality and transparency. The "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no reason to be afraid" argument doesn't wash with me. If MFC is operating in this way then they should be transparent about it.

They could add language along the lines of "If you act like a shit, watch your back, asshole."
 
I'm honestly surprised people are surprised. It is pretty darn common in many establishments and businesses that certain rights are waived by certain actions.

If you threaten to show up at a models home and murder her, fuck your fucking privacy. You already broke the damn contract yourself
 
I think it's fair to say that models have more to fear where their personal information is concerned, but that doesn't mean that members should waive all rights to their privacy. If MFC were frivolously handing member information to models, then there would be legitimate cause for concern, but it doesn't look like that is what is happening.
I agree.

I would hope that MFC acts with prudence regarding this matter, and I see no reason to believe they are not. I'm starting to get the feeling there is some flame-fanning going on in this thread.

What is especially ridiculous to me is the fact that many members would offer up their personal information to a model with little or no resistance, without her ever having to go to MFC. I've done that a few times, and when one of them started threatening to kill me, I had no one to blame but myself. Even with guns and a big dog I didn't feel safe.
 
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