We can dance if we want to...well actually we can't.

[Jupiter551]

 

[Redwud3381]

......wut

 

[Bocefish]

Yes we can... this guy is amazing and loves to go up to firework stands and say the last batch you sold me was awesome!

 

[Jupiter551]

......wut

lol did you watch it?

 

[Keithy]

The police handled this very poorly. The back story makes the police look worse. Writing my representatives to complain.

 

[Bocefish]

If you go looking for trouble... it's not all that difficult to find it.

 

[LilyVonShtupp]

Of course they should be arrested, it wouldn't have been a proper protest without it. If I was that guy who had the bald cop looking at him and trying to be intimidating I'd be damned if I'd stop. In that type of situation if you don't get arrested your point is not being made. I can't believe all of the "we aren't doing anything" and "we aren't protesting" crap. You ARE protesting. Stand up and OWN it!

I want to know if the Jefferson Memorial is not considered a public place then who owns it and what kind of basis to they determine when something stops being a way to "honor" Jefferson and becomes distracting to others. What do they determine is dancing? Am I allowed to move my hands like I am conducting a symphony? Can I put a little skip in my step as I walk along?

For that matter, can I be arrested if I have a baby who is crying and refuse to leave? It's just... a stupid thing to feel the need to arrest people over...

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah it's worse because they were harming no one, weren't told what law they were breaking despite asking repeatedly, and were brutally and unnecissarily tackled. Oh and the press ejected from a public place.

And think about where it occurred..a memorial to the author of the Declaration of Independence and one of the most important instigators of the Bill of Rights guaranteeing free speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of expression.

It's just disgusting.

 

[Jupiter551]

Of course they should be arrested, it wouldn't have been a proper protest without it. If I was that guy who had the bald cop looking at him and trying to be intimidating I'd be damned if I'd stop. In that type of situation if you don't get arrested your point is not being made. I can't believe all of the "we aren't doing anything" and "we aren't protesting" crap. You ARE protesting. Stand up and OWN it!

I want to know if the Jefferson Memorial is not considered a public place then who owns it and what kind of basis to they determine when something stops being a way to "honor" Jefferson and becomes distracting to others. What do they determine is dancing? Am I allowed to move my hands like I am conducting a symphony? Can I put a little skip in my step as I walk along?

For that matter, can I be arrested if I have a baby who is crying and refuse to leave? It's just... a stupid thing to feel the need to arrest people over...

But Xina....when is a couple slow dancing, not harming or bothering anyone, in a public place, in a memorial to a champion of freedom, any kind of protest? Only under the most draconian rule of a police state.

 

[Keithy]

There are a lot of things to consider here.
Did they protest? Not really. They danced individually, not as a group. They were planning a protest. Planning a protest is not illegal nor is protesting. If the Westboro Baptists can protest funerals why can't these people protest?
Did the police act justly? Not really. They had the chance to inform people of the law (they refused). They could have handcuffed them peacefully (they resorted to violence against peaceful protesters).
Why were the people protesting? The arrest of a woman for dancing (not in protest) outside of (not in) the Jefferson monument at midnight (when they weren't disturbing anyone). The music was on iPods, so no noise from the music.

So no, they didn't protest, they were going to protest and instead resorted to having to egg on the police (which isn't a crime).

 

[Jupiter551]

There are a lot of things to consider here.
Did they protest? Not really. They danced individually, not as a group. They were planning a protest. Planning a protest is not illegal nor is protesting. If the Westboro Baptists can protest funerals why can't these people protest?
Did the police act justly? Not really. They had the chance to inform people of the law (they refused). They could have handcuffed them peacefully (they resorted to violence against peaceful protesters).
Why were the people protesting? The arrest of a woman for dancing (not in protest) outside of (not in) the Jefferson monument at midnight (when they weren't disturbing anyone). The music was on iPods, so no noise from the music.

So no, they didn't protest, they were going to protest and instead resorted to having to egg on the police (which isn't a crime).

Yeah gathering in public is also protected by the constitution.

 

[Zoomer]

Was it an attempt at a "flash mob" by any chance? Otherwise how would the guards know about it in advance :lol: :lol: :lol:

If they are protesting, they are the worlds worst protesters. Why? Because I've no idea what they're protesting about - what the cause is, and therefore despite having the perfect opportunity (being recorded and cops looking harsh for no reason) to really make themselves heard - they failed. I'm guessing it was a flash mob attempt

Love the way the guards/cops dealt with it. There wasn't any messing about... once they made a decision they got on with it. Obviously the outcome disrupted things far more, and for far longer, than perhaps 20 people dancing in silence would have lasted - so entirely counter productive The cops had their bluff called, but weren't bluffing. I feel they should have only bluffed and tried to move people on after 5-10 minutes instead

 

[Jupiter551]

Was it an attempt at a "flash mob" by any chance? Otherwise how would the guards know about it in advance :lol: :lol: :lol:

If they are protesting, they are the worlds worst protesters. Why? Because I've no idea what they're protesting about - what the cause is, and therefore despite having the perfect opportunity (being recorded and cops looking harsh for no reason) to really make themselves heard - they failed. I'm guessing it was a flash mob attempt

Love the way the guards/cops dealt with it. There wasn't any messing about... once they made a decision they got on with it. Obviously the outcome disrupted things far more, and for far longer, than perhaps 20 people dancing in silence would have lasted - so entirely counter productive The cops had their bluff called, but weren't bluffing. I feel they should have only bluffed and tried to move people on after 5-10 minutes instead

I don't think the cops necessarily knew about it beforehand, they probably reacted because the four or five people had two tv cameras with them. I didn't see any dancing until the old couple were slowly swaying together and kissed, for which they were pulled apart and handcuffed...I mean cmon...the cops reaction, apart from being ludicrous and not in fact stating at any point what people were under arrest for, what law was being broken...and the force used was ridiculously excessive.

Keep in mind this was inside a public place, they weren't disrupting anyone, weren't disrespecting the memorial (even if that was a crime) - and it's a memorial commemorating a champion of freedom!!

I'm not even American but to think a USMC Iraq war veteran would be body slammed, choke-held, and then have a knee pinning down his neck while handcuffed, after offering no violent resistance whatsoever, for DANCING in a public place...that makes me feel ill.

 

[Zoomer]

I don't think the cops necessarily knew about it beforehand, they probably reacted because the four or five people had two tv cameras with them.

Did you miss the bit at the start when the cop goes up to them and specifically says "I'll give you your warning - if you're here to protest with dancing, then I will say right now you will be placed under arrest". Kinda gave me the impression they are aware what people are gathering there for :roll: :-D

For example - here's the next one:

Come dance with us! You don't have to risk arrest, you can dance on the steps outside in support or join us in civil disobedience in the memorial!

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=150453268357946

I couldn't be arsed to search, but from his own site:

On May 28, 2011 Television host Adam Kokesh and several other activists participating in a flash-mob were arrested at the publicly-funded Thomas Jefferson Memorial. Their crime? Silently dancing, in celebration of the first amendment’s champion; a clear violation of their right to free-expression. In an excessive use of force, video was captured of Adam being body slammed and placed in a choke for his non-crime.

Lets be honest, he was placed under arrest and then did not comply with the officer. Things got out of hand when the guy in purple grabbed his friend to stop him giving himself up, and refused to let go until they were on the floor. As for Kokesh - whilst he didn't offer physical violence, he was forceably walking away keeping his hands out - refusing to put his hands behind his back... and dragging the officer with him :lol: . What is the officer supposed to do? Wander around saying "last chance" all day long? Say "please please pretty please" and then tempt him with cake? Officer of the law says "you're under arrest, put your hands behind your back" - then I'd say being plonked on the floor is reasonable force when you've failed to comply after repeated requests and are dragging the cop with you.
As is putting his hand on his throat to stop him getting up. Was he choked? Doesn't appear to have any problems breathing or being choked - so the title is misleading on purpose Brutality, choking, body slammed - doesn't seem honest. Resisting arrest and being treated in a manner which enabled the offender to be handcuffed seems much more reasonable

From wikipedia:

Adam Charles Kokesh (born February 1, 1982) is an American activist and talk radio host.

I note it's his youtube channel you watch, it was he who organised it, it was his idea (http://www.adamvstheman.com/) - he called the media obviously... why call the media unless you are attempting to provoke something?

Adam’s experience as a United States Marine and Republican Congressional candidate make him uniquely qualified to take down the man behind the curtain.

To take down the man :lol:

The whole thing is intended to gain the reaction it did. They know they'll get in trouble, so is he trying to make a point? No, his video is not trying to make a point. His video is titled "Adam Kokesh body slammed, choked, police brutality at Jefferson Memorial" - it's self promoting, instead of focusing upon what he's supposed to be focusing upon :lol: As for the guy saying "You didn't give me a warning" - do you require a warning before you arrest someone for a violation? (whether it's an actual violation or not I've no idea ).

It is all stupid and absurd, but if you go out to provoke a reaction, get the reaction you wish for - then I'd say you're not exactly highlighting anything other than self promotion

 

[Keithy]

If an officer would have stepped in from of him and put one handcuff on him first no slamming him on the floor would be required. Seeing as how there was no immediate threat and no threat at all, he could have waited. Also placing a hand on his forehead would stop him a LOT better than a choke hold. So would placing a knee on his chest. There are tons of other options. This officer just went with one that was fast and violent.

 

[LilyVonShtupp]

Of course they should be arrested, it wouldn't have been a proper protest without it. If I was that guy who had the bald cop looking at him and trying to be intimidating I'd be damned if I'd stop. In that type of situation if you don't get arrested your point is not being made. I can't believe all of the "we aren't doing anything" and "we aren't protesting" crap. You ARE protesting. Stand up and OWN it!

I want to know if the Jefferson Memorial is not considered a public place then who owns it and what kind of basis to they determine when something stops being a way to "honor" Jefferson and becomes distracting to others. What do they determine is dancing? Am I allowed to move my hands like I am conducting a symphony? Can I put a little skip in my step as I walk along?

For that matter, can I be arrested if I have a baby who is crying and refuse to leave? It's just... a stupid thing to feel the need to arrest people over...

But Xina....when is a couple slow dancing, not harming or bothering anyone, in a public place, in a memorial to a champion of freedom, any kind of protest? Only under the most draconian rule of a police state.

They were protesting the court decision involving a similar case a few years ago. That was the point of it.

Of course I agree that whole thing was crazy. The Jefferson Memorial is apparently not considered a public place and you are not allowed to do anything there that disturbs others. That's why I said if it is not a public place then who owns it and who is making up these stupid laws? It makes no sense to me and I applaud these kids for what they did. The cops were crazy assholes and it was a horrible thing to happen but they did it intentionally to protest the fact that it happened a few years ago. Therefore I was just saying of course they got arrested, they went there KNOWING that this would happen. it doesn't make it any less wrong or any less stupid of a law, it's just what protesting is about.

Now this story is out there and everyone can see how stupid this rule/law/whatever is.

 

[LilyVonShtupp]

Dangit! I took too long to edit my post :lol:

Here is a bit of clarification on what I meant in my first post:


Hahahaha, I'm not arguing that it was RIGHT that they were arrested!

Here's what I meant, I was just really pissed at the police and my protester side came out...

The back story is that a woman was arrested for dancing to the music on her ipod at the memorial a few years ago. It was the middle of the night and she was not disturbing anyone. Recently her case against those arresting her was dropped because the Jefferson Memorial was determined not to be a public place and dancing to music (even if others cannot hear it) is apparently not allowed. They want to preserve the memorial as a place of reflexion and somehow feel dancing is going to disturb this.

All of that is fucking nuts. Therefore these kids heard of that and decided to protest the decision with a flash mob at the Jefferson Memorial. They knew ahead of time that someone had gotten arrested for that very thing only the original person had no idea what was going on and these kids did.

Now I applaud them for what they did. I think the idea that you cannot dance in the Jefferson Memorial is idiotic and if it is a publicly funded memorial I want to know how the hell it can be considered "not a public place."

It's just that the crazy hippie in me would have been more straightforward about it to get my point across. As you can tell from this thread that video is way too confusing and you have to research it to know what in the world was going on. That's not the best protest I've ever seen.

 

[Jupiter551]

Did you miss the bit at the start when the cop goes up to them and specifically says "I'll give you your warning - if you're here to protest with dancing, then I will say right now you will be placed under arrest". Kinda gave me the impression they are aware what people are gathering there for :roll: :-D

Yeah I do get that they were there to initiate a non-violent, non-invasive protest, but that is not in ANY WAY an excuse for the cops to act as they did! In the case of non-violent, minor crimes, cops frequently use their judgement.

Protest or not, no one here can possibly argue that a couple silently slow dancing, and Adam dancing with his headphones on could disturb fellow visitors anywhere NEAR as much as excessive police force in response, ejection of press, and declaring the memorial closed (not everyone there had to do with the protest - most everyone I noticed there was shocked and scared by the police reaction).

If anyone present was disturbing the peace of the memorial and should be held accountable it's the cops, because their actions are FAR, FAR more offensive than uninvasive freedom of expression.

I'm not even American (though I appreciate the values and principles of some of your founding fathers) and I can't even imagine how I would feel to be a war veteran, having served one's country, to come home and be assaulted by police for nothing more than silently dancing at a memorial to one of history's champions of liberty...

 

[AshleyMarks]

The cops did not even give a detail of the law that these people were breaking. Dancing is self expression. I guess the cops were jealous because they don't have any moves. I would be pissed off if i got arrested for dancing, I mean come on, it is supposed to be a free country, right???? Those cops are just regular Barney Fifes. Thanks for posting this, it made me go, what the fuck??????? Yeah, sometimes I hate being American because of people like that.

 

[Zoomer]

I feel like I'm defending, but I'm not... However - for fun

Yeah I do get that they were there to initiate a non-violent, non-invasive protest, but that is not in ANY WAY an excuse for the cops to act as they did! In the case of non-violent, minor crimes, cops frequently use their judgement.

According to the police there, you aren't allowed to conduct any form of protest at the monument. Doesn't matter if it's non-violent, violent, silent, non-invasive, loud, abrasive, invasive, or any other form. It's. just. not. allowed. (emphasis for fun ).
Now whether that decision is within the law is for a court to decide isn't it - not viewers, protesters or bystanders Ergo, I honestly don't see what the issue is

Protest or not, no one here can possibly argue that a couple silently slow dancing, and Adam dancing with his headphones on could disturb fellow visitors anywhere NEAR as much as excessive police force in response, ejection of press, and declaring the memorial closed (not everyone there had to do with the protest - most everyone I noticed there was shocked and scared by the police reaction).

If anyone present was disturbing the peace of the memorial and should be held accountable it's the cops, because their actions are FAR, FAR more offensive than uninvasive freedom of expression.

ergo because it's not permitted - all this is entirely irrelevant. It isn't about who's causing more disturbance... Whether the police's actions are justified/legal within the law is the only point that is interesting. Are the cops correct to arrest and remove protesters from the monument
Of course I don't believe anyone was disturbing the peace - or would have been if it continued. BUT were the police disturbing the peace? No. The protesters were disturbing the peace when being placed under arrest! Why do I say that? Because a police officer should be able to say "you are under arrest", cuff you without resistance - and that's it. Job Done.

True, the police judgement as to whether there was any benefit or not to making arrests does look weird...BUT...

As for cop behaviour. The cops acted in a way to prevent such a protest from even occurring - which they did. They warned, it wasn't heeded - they took action. What else are they to do? I don't think there was a need for action, but that decision was made before protesters arrived obviously.

Now, were they heavy handed? Again - I'd look at the video. They placed the first couple under arrest and hand cuffed them. No un-necessary violence, although the guy objects very loudly indeed. And repeatedly.
Then they try to arrest the guy in the white T-shirt, who is very very nice about it and voluntarily gives himself up for arrest. Unfortunately his friend in the shirt pulls him away instead... and that's where things go "wrong", from everyone else's perspective.

What is the cop to do? The friend is now causing obstruction, and turning it into resisting arrest (maybe). What ... a ... twat. If he wishes to resist, so be it, but to enforced resistance upon your friend who did not indicate any desire to do so... he's a prick.

It results in both of them going to the floor, and it results in the cop going to the floor. It results in the guy screaming out about his arm. Other officers will look around at the shouting, see their fellow officer kneeling on one guy he's trying to arrest, and attempting to fight off a second guy... It appears the "friend" realises things are going pear shaped and stops holding onto the white t-shirted guys arm - but it was too late. The cops coming across are probably in the mindset that their fellow officer needs assistance, and who knows what threat is presented by the shirted guy. This is all innocent - but I wonder how many cops have been injured, or even killed, through thinking a scenario is "innocent" whilst the so-called "innocent" looking person whips out a weapon and injures/kills/maims. They just can't take a fucking chance.

Then he goes over to the last guy, in the white t-shirt, the DJ - and attempts to arrest him. He resists arrest too...

I'm not even American (though I appreciate the values and principles of some of your founding fathers) and I can't even imagine how I would feel to be a war veteran, having served one's country, to come home and be assaulted by police for nothing more than silently dancing at a memorial to one of history's champions of liberty...

The way you phrase this is utterly misleading. He wasn't assaulted for dancing silently... He. resisted. arrest. plain. and. simple. Honestly, I can't see how you view him as being assaulted for dancing. He wasn't, the police man tried to arrest him and he did not comply despite repeated warnings to do so.

I can see why the cops behaved like they did after that first arrest (the couple) Do I think they handled it well? No - that is the benefit of hindsight and more info! But I can see how it came to the state it did, and don't blame the officers for the manner in which they made the arrests. The protesters caused that with how they responded to being arrested. Simples.

Do I think the police did a good job? No :lol: Do I think dancing protesters should be arrested? Hell no :lol: Do I think the police deserve castigation and brutality allegations? No! I find it entirely funny, and even funnier that the idea was to highlight freedoms. Instead it's centring upon "police brutality" - which is the one thing I don't think you see

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah but I was trying to make the point that police regularly show judgement in matters of minor crime - and maybe we have differing definitions of resisting arrest but Adam continuing to dance and not relaxing his body (keeping his arms stiff) is in no way - in my opinion - any kind of justification for being bodily thrown to the ground, choke-held etc...

As for the guy in the brown shirt - I guess you read his actions differently than I did because I didn't think he was trying to pull his friend away from the cop, I thought he linked his arm through his friend's like they were going to 'dance a jig' or whatever - essentially trying to make the cop dance too.

I dunno, I can only judge it from my own perspective as an Australian - police here can be heavy-handed when it's warranted (and sometimes not too) but I can't imagine them ever acting like this. At most they'd have two policemen pin his hands behind his back and force march him to the police car.

And I stand by my statement that the cops created more of a disturbance and disrespect to TJ's memorial - if you look in the background there are plenty of regular sightseers taking photographs and looking on in horror and confusion.